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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Terrorist Strike in Baghdad, Jerusalem

Aired August 19, 2003 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Twin bombings, we're following major acts of terror in Baghdad and Jerusalem, among the casualties in Iraq a prominent member of the United Nations.
WOLF BLITZER REPORTS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Baghdad bombing, a sudden and stunning blast rips through the U.N. Headquarters in Iraq.

DAVID MARSHALL, WITNESS: The roof collapsed. Lights went out and dust was everywhere. There was chaos in the building.

BLITZER: Extraordinary stories from survivors in their own words, urgent rescue efforts in the rubble with top U.N. officials among the many casualties.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing can excuse this act of unprovoked and murderous violence.

BLITZER: Has Iraq turned into a quagmire for all who get involved?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The civilized world will not be intimidated and these killers will not determine the future of Iraq.

BLITZER: Today, I'm joined by two men at odds over that future, U.S. diplomatic troubleshooter Richard Holbrooke and Saddam Hussein's former man in New York Mohammed AlDouri.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, TERROR IN BAGHDAD. Reporting from Washington here's Wolf Blitzer.

BLITZER: You're looking live at the United Nations Headquarters in Baghdad, a side of it obliterated today by a bomb. It's the most brazen attack since the end of major combat in Iraq.

Take a look at these pictures right now. A truck bomb ripped through a hotel housing the U.N. Headquarters in Baghdad. At least 17 people are dead, among them the top U.N. envoy in Iraq Sergio Vieira de Mello. Up to 100 more have been wounded.

Also, a day of terror in Jerusalem where just hours ago a suicide bombing tore apart a packed Jerusalem passenger bus, people returning from prayers at the Western Wall in Jerusalem. At least 20 people have been killed including children. Dozens, dozens of others have been wounded, many of them very seriously. We'll have much more on this developing story in just a moment.

First though, the attack in Baghdad, shocking in its scale, its boldness, and its choice of target the United Nations offices in the Iraqi capital.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): TV cameras rolling at the very moment of devastation. U.N. officials say the truck bomb went off right below the window of the chief U.N. representative to Iraq Sergio Vieira de Mello. Vieira de Mello later died in the rubble. His aide, near him at the time of the blast, spoke to CNN's Jane Arraf.

SALIM LONE, U.N. SPOKESMAN: I grieve for him. I grieve for his family. I grieve for all his friends but I grieve most of all for the people of Iraq because he was the man who could really have helped bring about an end to occupation, an end to the trauma the people of Iraq have felt for so long.

BLITZER: The chief U.S. official in Iraq says the truck bomb may have been strategically placed.

PAUL BREMER, U.S. CIVILIAN ADMINISTRATOR: It may well be that he was the target of this attack. The truck was parked in such a place here in front of the building that it had to affect his office, which was on the second floor above us here.

BLITZER: Dozens were trapped beneath the rubble. Dozens of others wounded, day survivors led out by U.S. troops.

MARSHALL: I was in the meeting on the second floor of the Canal Hotel and -- there was an extraordinary explosion which blew me and those in the meeting off our seats against the wall. The roof collapsed. Lights went out and dust was everywhere.

BLITZER: The blast caused one entire side of the U.N. office at the Canal Hotel to collapse, damaged other nearby structures, windows shattered nearly a mile away. Paul Bremer said the U.S.-backed coalition will leave no stone unturned to find those responsible.

BREMER: These people are not content with having killed thousands of people before. They just want to keep killing and killing and killing and they won't have their way.

BLITZER: By day's end, symbols of loss and a difficult mission.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And, as we reported, TV news cameras were rolling when the bomb went off. Japanese broadcaster NHK captured the terrifying sounds and images.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: As the lights up you can see the dust and the confusion as people begin to realize what's happened. You also see some of the injured, some with very bloody wounds as the entire group slowly makes its way outside.

The scene of the attack, the Canal Hotel complex on the east side of central Baghdad, the hotel operates more as an office building. Hundreds of U.N. workers are based there and the cafeteria is frequented by humanitarian workers and journalists.

The three-story building houses most of the U.N. offices in Iraq. Before the war it was the headquarters for the U.N. weapons inspectors. A clinic for people with spinal cord injuries is next door to the hotel, part of that building also was destroyed and some patients were reportedly trapped in the rubble for a time.

It's a scene or horror and devastation and grim resolve as rescuers dig through the rubble. They're continuing to do so right now.

We go live to CNN's Baghdad Bureau Chief Jane Arraf. She's joining us by phone. She's inside the U.N. compound. Jane, set the scene for us right now.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF (via telephone): Wolf, the main thing is that the rescue efforts have ended. There's heavy equipment right now in front of us and the excavator bringing out huge chunks of concrete and metal, basically trying to clear the major part of the debris.

Now, a U.N. person on the site tells us that they are still missing one person, one person unaccounted for. Apart from that, though, the rescue efforts have clearly stopped and the Army has brought in heavy equipment just to try to clear some of that debris.

The FBI has been in roping off a huge crater that was left when the truck bomb went off. Now, it appears to have gone down an access road, one of the least guarded places in this U.N. complex, clearly an attack that was well thought out aimed at hitting the most vulnerable point and causing the maximum damage and maximum casualties -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jane, what's the reaction among the U.N. personnel? Are they going to stay there? Do they want to pick up and get out? What are they saying to you?

ARRAF: Most of them were simply shell shocked. In fact, it's hard to find anyone who had not been injured who was not wandering around with blood stained clothing or torn clothing or in literal shock.

They're going to regroup. They've gone back to their hotel, the same (unintelligible) hotels. It's part of security measures. They all stay in the same places and senior officials in the U.N., the surviving senior officials are holding a meeting early in the morning with coalition authorities.

Clearly a lot of these people will want to go home. They now have nowhere to work. This isn't the only U.N. complex but it was the main one and certainly the most visible one and after something like this it would be very difficult for many of them to continue working here.

We have to say, though, that there were about half of them local staff, Iraqis. They obviously have no choice. They live here and they will continue to hopefully try to maintain their jobs. But as for the future of U.N. operations here that's still unclear -- Wolf.

BLITZER: A terrifying situation indeed. Jane Arraf on the scene for us in Baghdad, thanks Jane very much.

Here's your turn, our viewers that is, to weigh in on the story. Our web question of the day is this: "Is Iraq becoming a quagmire for the U.S."? We'll have the results later in this broadcast.

You can vote right now at cnn.com/wolf, and while you're there I'd love to hear directly from you our viewers. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also, of course, where you can read my daily online column, cnn.com/wolf.

Much more coming up on the Baghdad bombing today but let's move on elsewhere in the middle east. Just hours after that bombing in Baghdad, terror in the streets of Jerusalem, a suicide bombing on a city bus killed at least 20 people wounded dozens more and now Israel has suspended talks with the Palestinian Authority on withdrawing from Palestinian cities.

CNN's Jerrold Kessel is on the scene. He's joining us now live from Jerusalem, Jerrold, a horrifying, horrifying event.

JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Horrifying, a mild word perhaps Wolf. Grim scenes as you can see behind me as the cleanup work in the bus continues. All the bodies have been taken away, all the wounded long taken away.

At least 18 confirmed dead, possibly as high as 20 killed by the suicide bomber who came from Hebron on the West Bank, 100 people wounded many of them children.

At least one small child among the dead, some of the children fighting for their lives among the 16 people who were reported to be seriously hurt in this attack shattering the relative calm of the last seven weeks.

Palestinian militant groups who were meeting with Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas as the bombing took place saying they stayed true to the ceasefire and this was, claiming responsibility the Islamic Jihad and Hamas, was a response, a revenge attack for Israel's initiated attack they say in Hebron on Thursday in which a Islamic Jihad leader was killed. The Israelis have suspended their talks with the Palestinians about ongoing measures to try to get the peace process, the road map for peace going, all those talks off, and the Israelis say they will not hand over now, for now at least, further control of towns in the West Bank to the Palestinians. Further work of cleanup continues here, very grim mood indeed -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jerrold, Islamic Jihad apparently has claimed responsibility for this attack. Are they saying in their statement why they did this? I thought there was supposed to be a so-called ceasefire until the end of September.

KESSEL: Yes, we've had in fact two claims of ceasefire within the last hour or so, Wolf, both the Islamic radical group Islamic Jihad and Hamas claiming responsibility. Both say that they remain true to the ceasefire which they proclaimed seven weeks ago but this was a response to the Israeli action, the Israeli-initiated killings of their people.

They say, however, they'll keep to the ceasefire. They will not let Israeli killings of their people go unanswered and this is what it was but it was certainly a very savage answer -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jerrold Kessel for us in Jerusalem we'll be coming back there later this hour thanks Jerrold very much for that report.

President Bush, meanwhile, is at his Texas ranch. He found himself having to react to both of these horrific bombings in just the span of a few hours.

Our White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is joining us now live from Crawford, Texas, two statements, two very strong reactions from the president Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this has been a very difficult day for the Bush administration. A White House spokesman condemning the Israeli bombing in the strongest terms possible, calling it a vicious act of terror, encouraging the Palestinian Authority as well as Israeli security to work together to dismantle these type of terrorist organizations, but obviously a setback to the peace plan.

The administration, however, White House aides not particularly surprised by that development, by this type of bombing; however, what they were surprised by was this attack in Baghdad against the United Nations.

It was early this morning. President Bush was on the golf course when he got the news, a call from his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. He immediately went back to the Crawford Ranch.

He made some calls, one to the U.S. Ambassador Paul Bremer on the ground in Iraq as well as U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, offering assistance to both, the president taking this as an opportunity, challenges to the world to combat terror, to take them on. As you know, there are at least 18 countries contributing troops inside of Iraq to help with the U.S. peacekeeping force. The United Nations involved in this huge humanitarian effort. But, President Bush really framed this as an attack against the Iraqi people and, in fact, pled for their help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: They are the enemies of the Iraqi people. They are the enemies of every nation that seeks to help the Iraqi people. By their tactics and their targets these murderers reveal themselves once more as enemies of the civilized world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Wolf, there is a debate within the administration now, people seeing it very differently. Some say that, of course, they're worried. They're trying to keep the international coalition together in light of what has happened today.

Others see this really as galvanizing the international community that if they can attack the United Nations that perhaps the United Nations, as well as the Iraqi people, will be even more helpful, more determined in the reconstruction effort inside of Iraq -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux in Crawford, Texas, Suzanne thanks very much.

The United Nations in the line of fire, we'll take you inside the attack that devastated a humanitarian mission. Are terrorists taking over Iraq? We'll take a closer look at that.

Also, a CNN exclusive, Iraq's former U.N. Ambassador Mohammed AlDouri, find out who he thinks is to blame for today's attacks.

And, terminating Arnold Schwarzenegger, we'll talk to Cruz Bustamante to find out how he's beating Arnold Schwarzenegger in the polls, at least for now. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: On a bad day in Baghdad, U.S. forces in Iraq have scored one major success taking into custody a former Iraqi vice president, a key figure on the most wanted list.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): To be described as one of the real hardliners in Saddam Hussein's regime is truly saying something but that's how Taha Yasin Ramadan has often been characterized.

BUSH: I'm really pleased that we've captured the vice president. Slowly but surely we'll find who we need to find. It's just a matter of time.

BLITZER: Kurdish forces say they captured Ramadan in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul and handed him over to the U.S. military. One of Saddam's closest co-conspirators, Ramadan's record of intimidation and alleged atrocities is legendary.

KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: : I can't say for certain he was a war criminal but I'd probably be willing to bet a year's salary that he was, a horrible person, it's great to get him off the streets.

BLITZER: Ramadan started his career as a bank clerk but rose through the Ba'ath Party ranks and helped plot the 1968 coup that eventually brought Saddam to power.

Ramadan is believed to have been a key coordinator of Saddam's brutal suppression of two rebellions after the first Gulf War by the Kurds in the north and Shiite Muslims in the south.

He once suggested that Saddam and George W. Bush settle their differences in a dual. At a meeting of Arab leaders early this year, Saudi Arabia's foreign minister suggested that Saddam step down. Ramadan's reply:

TAHA YASIN RAMADAN, FMR. IRAQI VICE PRESIDENT (through translator): I'll tell you, you loser, you are too small to say anything about our leader Saddam Hussein.

BLITZER: Ramadan was last seen during the war. On March 29, after a suicide bomber killed four U.S. soldiers in Najaf, he issued this ominous decree.

RAMADAN (through translator): This is only the beginning and you will hear more good news in the coming days.

BLITZER: At the same news conference, Ramadan told the U.S.-led coalition pack your bags and leave us alone. Instead, it was Taha Yasin Ramadan who packed his bags when the regime fell.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And we're told he was heavily disguised when he was captured by those Kurdish forces, disguised as a Bedouin.

We'll have much more coming up on this story, the bombing in Jerusalem as well.

But also we're following the political scene out in California. Arnold Schwarzenegger is he losing some ground? Will his new TV ads help him bounce back?

The candidate and Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante, he'll join us next live.

Also, more terror in Iraq, an attack against the U.N. shakes Baghdad to its core, is the situation spiraling out of control? We'll take a closer look.

And, Iraq's former ambassador to the U.N. Mohammed AlDouri, find out what he thinks about the attacks in Iraq. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We'll get back to the terrorist bombings in Baghdad and Jerusalem in just a few moments but first let's check some other important news.

The California recall campaign is taking to the airwaves. Republican candidates Arnold Schwarzenegger and Bill Simon both have new ads out today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER: We the people are doing our job, working hard, raising our families, and paying taxes, but the politicians are not doing their job. We can do better than that, after all we are California.

BILL SIMON: I'm Bill Simon. Gray Davis tripled our car taxes and now Arnold Schwarzenegger's team wants to triple our property taxes, which just goes to show you don't send a liberal to do a tax fighter's job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And, California's governor is about to break his silence on the recall effort. Gray Davis says he'll, and I'm quoting now, "set the record straight" in just a few hours in a major speech.

CNN National Correspondent Bob Franken is covering all these recall events. He's joining us now live from Elk Grove. Bob, set the scene for us.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'm outside the house of the Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante who has said repeatedly that he opposes the recall of the Governor Gray Davis but that he's running for governor himself.

He announced his financial package for the state to try and set things right. It's a combination of tax hikes and budget cutbacks. But when it came time to talk about Governor Gray Davis it was quite clear to many people that the support that he was offering regarding the speech tonight was support that was faint indeed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GOV. CRUZ BUSTAMANTE (D), CALIF. GOV. CANDIDATE: Californians are a very forgiving people. What they don't forgive is arrogance, arrogance in leadership, arrogance in government, arrogance in people.

And so, I think that anybody who goes to the voters and suggests that there have been some things that they would like to change, I think that that's a part of the process that the governor needs to present and then present his specific proposals. I think that's only one step of a process that he must go through. (END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: No one has ever said that the relationship between Bustamante, the Democratic lieutenant governor and Gray Davis, the Democratic governor was particularly close. Davis has any number of problems, a recall effort, a lot of Republicans who want his job and he's got a problem with his fellow Democrat -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Bob Franken in California for us, thanks Bob very much.

And the state's lieutenant governor says he opposes the recall but he also says he's seeking to replace Gray Davis if he is ousted. Cruz Bustamante unveiled his new so-called tough love economic plan today. He's joining us now live from Sacramento. Lieutenant Governor, thanks very much for joining us.

BUSTAMANTE: Thank you.

BLITZER: When you go into the booth to vote on October 7, assuming the election is October 7, will you vote in favor or against the recall of Governor Gray Davis?

BUSTAMANTE: I'm going to vote against the recall. I think that the recall is a high jacking of democracy. I think that the whole issue is extremely disappointing in terms of those folks who organized this. It is a bad process in terms of the institution.

There are already people right now that are talking about recalling the next governor. This is a bad thing to do. I am against the recall. I said it in my announcement. I said it at every single interview with every single process that I've gone through. I am opposed to this recall.

BLITZER: At the same time you're aggressively running. You want to get elected governor if he is recalled, Governor Gray Davis.

BUSTAMANTE: Right.

BLITZER: First of all do you think he will be recalled?

BUSTAMANTE: I don't know. That's always in the hands of the voters. You know a lot of times politicians think that they're in charge but they're not. It's the voters.

Voters are always in charge. They're going to say what they want to have happen. They're going to say who they want to do it and for those folks who don't listen they have this way of being able to get rid of them.

But I'll tell you this, the voters of the state of California have voted for me twice. Over five million people have voted me to be lieutenant governor to step in in the event that the governor was unable to continue.

I think I'm doing that and I'm presenting a campaign of ideas. I'm providing for the Democratic Party a win-win situation. I hope that the recall does not succeed but in the event that it does I'm presenting my ideas to the voters and I'm going to ask them for their consideration.

BLITZER: Well, you've been the lieutenant governor together with Gray Davis. What's different between you and him? If they want to recall him why should they vote for you?

BUSTAMANTE: Well, I think that that's what's before them now. Voters are pretty smart. They're going to do an analysis. They're going to review exactly what's taken place because, although maybe you can consider those folks who organized this recall process and say all kinds of things about them.

The people who signed that ballot, the people who signed that initiative were sending a real strong message to Sacramento. You're not working on the things that we think are important.

You're working on the things you think are important and what we want to do is we want to put everything back up on the table. We want to hear from everybody. We want to hear your ideas and we're going to decide who's going to lead us in the future.

BLITZER: Arnold Schwarzenegger has got a new set of ads. You probably saw some of them starting to run today. What does he not bring to the table? Why should people not vote for him?

BUSTAMANTE: Well, I think that in my very first announcement when I came forward to put my candidacy, I told people immediately that very day that I was opposed to the car tax but I didn't just say in concept.

I gave a very specific proposal on how to deal with what I believe is an unfair burden on working families in California. I spoke specifically about how to deal with that issue.

Again, today, 12 days after I announced I now have a specific budget proposal on how to deal with not only the hole that we have here in terms of our deficit but how to make sure we give back to the people of California. We fix the car tax and we provide a better education to our kids.

BLITZER: Very briefly, Lieutenant Governor, the ACLU and others they're saying that the system is broken in terms of the punch card, the chads, that they should delay the vote until next March. Do you think that they should delay the vote?

BUSTAMANTE: I'm going to leave that to the experts. I tried as the lieutenant governor to give the maximum amount of time that I was able to give under the law so this election would be able to be held and that the counties who are running the elections would have enough time. I'll leave that.

We are clearly concerned that we don't get into another situation like Florida but we clearly have given as much time that was legally available in the law.

BLITZER: Cruz Bustamante, the Lieutenant Governor of California running for governor right now thanks for joining us.

BUSTMANTE: Thank you, Wolf, for having me on.

BLITZER: Terrorists strike in the heart of Baghdad, is Iraq turning into a quagmire for U.S. troops? We'll take a closer look.

Plus a CNN exclusive, an interview with Iraq's former U.N. Ambassador, Mohammed AlDouri.

Also, at the very spot of devastation, the words of a witness in Baghdad.

And should the U.S. rethink it's go-it-alone approach?

Richard Holbrooke joins us live on the future of peacekeeping and security in Iraq.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS terror in Baghdad. Reporting from Washington, here's Wolf Blitzer.

BLITZER: More now on our top story. The bombing of the U.N. headquarters that killed at least 17 people in Baghdad. David Marshall is the United Nations lawyer who was inside the building when the bomb went off. Here's how he describes what he saw in his own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID MARSHALL, U.N. LAWYER: I was at a meeting on the second floor, and at 4:30, a powerful, incredible blast threw me and my colleagues off our chairs against the wall. The roof collapsed. Dust was everywhere. We stayed on the ground for about 30 seconds and then we left the area. It was chaos. There was blood everywhere. The roof seemed to have caved in most of the areas. Rubble was everywhere. We tried to leave the front door -- the front entrance and there were a number of bodies under the rubble, on top of the rubble. They were moved to the center of the parking lot, and then I went to the back of the building where it had collapsed, and -- which is where Sergio is, and there seems to be -- there appeared to me to be a huge crater at the back to the building which resulted in the back of the building collapsing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Marshall says the U.N.'s work in Iraq will continue, despite the attack.

As we reported, the U.N. special envoy to Iraq is among those killed in the bombing. By all account 55-year-old Brazilian Sergio Vieira de Mello leaves a tremendous void.

Here's Michael Okwu.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sergio Vieira de Mello, a 30-year United Nations veteran was handpicked after the war by U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to be his point man in Iraq.

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL: He has an exceptional and unique experience in running these operations. And he is also known as a good team builder and a consensus builder. I think he is someone who will hit the ground running.

OKWU: Right away his no-nonsense style was evidence.

SEGIO VIEIRA DE MELLO, U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY TO IRAQ: I am here to learn (ph). I am not here to make long speeches.

OKWU: His top concern, getting Iraqi more involved in running their country.

DE MELLO: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it's going to have an immense impact on the speed of the end of the occupation.

OKWU: To his spokesman, Kofi Annan issued a tribute to his long time friend.

ANNAN: The death of any colleague is hard to bear, but I could think of no one we could less afford to spare or who will be more missed throughout the U.N. system than Sergio.

OKWU: Just weeks ago, Vieira de Mello issued this warning to the U.N. Security Council.

DE MELLO: The United Nations presence in Iraq remains vulnerable to any who would seek to target our organization. Our security continues to rely significantly on the reputation of the United Nations, our ability to demonstrate meaningfully that we are in Iraq to assist its people and our independence.

OKWU: The 55-year-old Brazilian diplomat is as comfortable in a tailored suit as khakis was used to be thrown into global hot spots. He ran the mission in East Timor. He established a mission in Kosovo, was special envoy in Cambodia and spent years working for refugees. To take the Iraq job, Vieira de Mello, took leave from his post of U.N. high commissioner for human rights.

DE MELLO: I consider the development of the culture of human rights in Iraq as fundamental to stability and true peace in that country.

OKWU: Stability and peace in Iraq. A cause he died for.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: At the United Nations, shock, outrage and mourning. The blue U.N. flag has been lowered to half staff.

Joining me is the spokesman for Secretary-General Kofi Annan, Frank Eckhard. Mr. Eckhard, thanks very much for joining us.

Any indication who is responsible for this attack?

FRED ECKHARD, U.N. SPOKESMAN: We have no idea.

BLITZER: No statements, no nothing is that what you are saying?

ECKHARD: No one has -- excuse me. No one has contacted us with -- claiming responsibility for what happened today. We had no foreknowledge of any particular threat. The security situation in Baghdad, as you know, has not been good for a long time. We know that going in there we had a substantial threat to deal with on an individual basis. I don't think anyone expected the -- a big chunk of our headquarters building to be blown up.

BLITZER: Was there not adequate -- I know you are having trouble hearing me, so I'll wait until you get that ear piece in your ear.

Are you hearing me okay now?

ECKHARD: Yes, I'm sorry.

BLITZER: Was there lack of security around that building?

ECKHARD: No, the security was, I think as good as could be expected. There's been a platoon of coalition troops -- I'm sorry, I'm getting feedback in this.

BLITZER: Mr. Eckhard, you know what we're going to do. We are going to take a quick break. I'm going to come back to you in a moment. But I want to bring in the former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, Richard Holbrooke who is joining us live from our New York studios as well.

Mr. Ambassador, thanks to you for joining us as well. We'll get back to Fred Eckhard in a few moments. You knew this international diplomat quite well. Talk a little bit about this remarkable man.

RICHARD HOLBROOKE, FORMER U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: He was one of these people, Wolf, that the world didn't know but should have known and only discovers in death. I knew him for over 25 years. And he went, as that previous piece showed, everywhere in the world, wherever the danger was greatest. After this brilliant job he did in East Timor, taking a war-torn island and converting it into an independent state in less than two years -- less than three years, Kofi Annan, who he always called his brother, said, time for you to go back to your family, rest, go back to Geneva, do the higher commission on human rights job.

And then as soon as Baghdad appeared, back Sergio went into combat. And it was combat, despite the fact that he was so impeccably dressed. And now we've lost him and -- I'd like to make two points about the lesson, Wolf. No. 1, this was an attack on the United States. Let us be absolutely clear on that. They attacked this hotel because as your terrorism experts have been saying throughout the day, it was a soft target. They attacked it because they knew that was the way to get at us. And that illustrates a deeper point. The United Nations, which is so often maligned, criticized, underfunded and undersupported, particularly by this administration, is, in fact, an indispensable partner in American foreign policy, And nobody illustrated that better than Sergio Vieira de Mello and several others who died in the attack. In Kosovo and Bosnia and East Timor and Afghanistan and Iraq, Sergio Vieira de Mello, was advancing American policy interests while he working for the U.N.

BLITZER: What's the other lesson that you learned?

HOLBROOKE: The two lessons. no. 1, the U.S. was the real target today and the second one is the U.N. needs much, much more support from Washington. We spend $1 billion a week in Iraq, and the U.N. gets $1 billion a year. The second point is very clear here that the terrorists, whoever they are, the guerrillas are changing the soft targets. This presents the Bush administration with a hellish dilemma.

BLITZER: So let me -- Mr. Ambassador, does that mean at this point the U.S. -- because you supported the war. You supported the president going into this war.

HOLBROOKE: I did.

BLITZER: Does this mean the U.S. should now give more of the responsibility over to the U.N.?

HOLBROOKE: I supported the war, but I was precise in interviews with you and before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. A war is only as good as the peace that follows. This administration had no plan for the peace that followed. They are doing it as they go along, and now they have three choices. They can beef up their forces, which will mean more U.S. casualties and more ownership, and it will be hard to protect every installation, no matter how many troops. No 2, they could start a withdrawal, a la Vietnam and Somalia, which would be a disaster, and number three, they can go international. Get the right kind of U.N. resolution, share the burden and recognize people like Sergio Vieira de Mello and his colleagues, and give them the support they need.

BLITZER: Mr. Ambassador, thanks very much for joining us.

HOLBROOKE: I think it's clear, excuse me for interrupting, Wolf, but I think it's clear from those three choices which one I would favor. I cannot understand why the administration, for what appears to be ideological reasons, keeps undermining the U.N., when we have people like de Mello serving our national interest and advancing them, all over the world. They need more support, and we need to support the U.N.

BLITZER: I'm sure that that's what Fred Eckhard wants to hear as well. Richard Holbrooke, thanks very much for joining us.

I think Fred Eckhard is back. We have all the communications fixed up. Where does the U.N., Mr. Eckhard, go from here in the aftermath of this devastating loss, in terms of Iraq?

ECKHARD: You were reading the tea leaves this morning. The Security Council held a meeting. They were briefed on what happened in Baghdad today, and the spokesmen for the president of the council came out and said that the council wants to continue working in Iraq and not to be deterred by this attack. The secretary-general issued a statement shortly after that saying let Sergio de Mello not have died in vain. Let's continue our work in Iraq. So the political signals are clear. We want to stay in Iraq and finish the job that we started.

The reality is that we have international staff from around the world who expect to work in an environment that might be risky, but that it's not lethal.

BLITZER: Fred Eckhard, our deepest condolences to you, to Kofi Annan, to everyone at the United Nations, and especially the family and friends of this outstanding diplomat and all the U.N. personnel, everyone else who was killed in Baghdad today. Thanks very much for joining us.

ECKHARD: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Is Iraq fertile ground for terrorists? The Pentagon's assessment of the threat and how to counter it when we come back.

And we'll also go live to Jerusalem again to hear from a rescuer on the scene of today's terrorist bus bombing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More now on today's deadly suicide bombing on a city bus in Jerusalem. Joining us from Jerusalem is Eli Beer. He's an emergency unit commander, one of the first on the scene. Mr. Beer, thanks very much for joining us. What is the latest information in terms of killed and injured that you can report?

ELI BEER, COMMANDER, EMERGENCY UNIT: What officially we can report is around 15 for sure that were dead and over 110 people hurt. And we -- I'm saying officially, because we probably have more than 15 dead.

BLITZER: What -- why was this bus so packed? Was it -- how did so many people fit on to a bus like that?

BEER: This is an extra long bus. This is a bus that's very busy. It comes back from the Wailing Wall in the old city of Jerusalem, and it's -- right now, time of vacation, people go with their children, and lots of children were on the bus. Lots of children. I don't remember seeing a bus full with so many on a bomb attack.

BLITZER: So this bus started at the Wailing Wall, the western wall in Jerusalem, and where was it heading?

BEER: It was heading to a neighborhood of Harnets (ph) in Jerusalem. It was the number two bus from the Wailing Wall, from the western wall. We're not for far away. It's right here, towards Harnets (ph), that's south of Jerusalem.

BLITZER: And as far as you know, did a terrorist go on board the bus with a suicide vest and simply detonate it, or was there some explosive that was planted elsewhere nearby?

BEER: No, the terrorist went on the bus. They have -- I heard one of the people that we were treating. She told me, she saw him, he was dressed up as a Jew, as an Orthodox Jew. We're not sure about that. The police will know that answer. But he was probably in the middle of the bus, and that's when he exploded himself, he exploded himself.

BLITZER: Aren't these people usually, where they board these buses, aren't the driver -- don't they usually check out people before they allow them to get on a bus?

BEER: They certainly do, and especially from places like the old city in Jerusalem. They can't have 100 percent protection, but they try the maximum. They try checking every person and looking for any suspicious people. But unfortunately, this time it didn't work, and you can't have 100 percent security. Even so, they try their best.

BLITZER: So what is happening right now? Have all the bodies been removed of the injured, the wounded been taken to the hospital?

BEER: Well, until now, the members of Hatsallah (ph, Jerusalem and MDA (ph), we were treating all the people that were hurt. We transferred over 110 people to hospitals. We treated them on the spot, plenty of children and babies. And right now they are taking care of the people that were killed on the spot, bringing them over to towards Tel Aviv, where the main morgue of Israel is.

BLITZER: Eli Beer, our condolences to you and...

BEER: I just want to say -- I just want to add something. Our members were right here. We had a bar mitzvah, right here of -- one of the members of Hatsallah (ph) was right here. We made a bar mitzvah right on the corner, right on my left. He made a bar mitzvah. So we heard the bomb as it happened. We heard the bomb explode. And we ran outside. We didn't even have to go into ambulances. They were all professional medics and they ran to save people's lives. And I am sure plenty of people's lives were saved because our motorcycle unit and the guys that came so fast. So I hope we don't have these things over again, but we tried our best, and thank God we saved a lot of people's lives.

BLITZER: Thank God. Eli Beer, thank you very much for joining us. Our condolences to you of course and to all of our friends and family and everyone else on the scene as well. Thank you very much for joining us.

How freely to terrorists operate in Iraq? The Pentagon's assessment of the real threat, that's coming up. Also, a very, very different view of the Baghdad explosion and the future of the U.N. mission. My exclusive conversation with Iraq's former U.N. ambassador, Mohammed Aldouri. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The Bush administration argued before the war that Iraq was closely tied to terrorism. Critics contested that claim, but these days there can be little doubt that terrorists have been drawn in there.

Here's CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the type of attack the U.S. military had already been fearing for days. The bombing of the United Nations compound increasing worries the war has shifted yet again and the U.S. is battling organized terrorists who are unfailing a wake of attacks against soft targets, facilities not heavily protect. No one knows who was responsible for this attack, but there is growing evidence that post-war Iraq has become a magnet for terrorists.

PETER BERGEN, TERRORISM ANALYST: Al Qaeda is in Iraq. And we're talking about something that's a recent phenomenon. We're talking about people coming over from Saudi Arabia, over the Syrian/Iraqi border into Iraq.

STARR: U.S. officials say an unknown number of foreign fighters continue to cross into Iraq. In early June, U.S. troops attacked a suspected terrorist camp, killing a number of non-Iraqi fighters. On August 7th, a bombing at the Jordanian embassy in Baghdad, more than a dozen killed. A top suspect, Ansar al Islam, a radical group with ties to al Qaeda. That group has increased its operations in Iraq, say U.S. officials. Some Shia clerics now calling for resistance against the coalition. If Shia forces join with the opposition, a new resistance challenge.

KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: There are people inside of Iraq who really don't the U.S. there. They are former members of Saddam's regime, Islamic fundamentalists, Sunni Arab tribesmen, all of whom don't want the Americans there, all of who are taking shots at the Americans and all who might make common cause with al Qaeda.

STARR: This week, aggressive new sabotage attacks against water supplies and oil pipelines. Another element in what U.S. officials believe is a campaign to turn the Iraqis against the coalition.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: Wolf, so far no change in U.S. military policy, no requests for additional combat troops, but the Pentagon hopes this terrorist attack will demonstrate to the Iraqis that the terrorists have gone too far and that the Iraqi people will turn and now support the United States -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thanks, Barbara. Earlier I talked about the attack in an exclusive telephone interview with Mohammed Aldouri. He has a unique perspective on the situation as the former Iraqi ambassador to the U.N. He says the U.S. military occupation is creating a fertile ground for terrorism.

MOHAMMED ALDOURI, FORMER IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: It is very sad day also for me, for all the international community, I guess, and also for Iraqi people.

BLITZER: Who do you believe might be responsible for killing these U.N. officials and others inside the Canal Hotel?

ALDOURI: You know, really, I can't say, I can't speculate on that. But, Mr. Blitzer, I think this is a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of the occupation, of American occupation. Unfortunately there was a lot of casualties today in Baghdad.

But who is responsible directly really I can't say, but indirectly I think the occupation is responsible of that.

BLITZER: I don't know if you know that the chief U.N. representative, Sergio Vieira de Mello, is among those who were killed today, an international diplomat, many years at the U.N. Did you know him during your tenure there?

ALDOURI: Well, unfortunately I didn't meet with him, but I have heard a lot of him. So allow me extend my condolences to his family and to the secretary general, Kofi Annan, and to all those people who are working in the United Nations, all the staff (UNINTELLIGIBLE) all over the world.

BLITZER: Is there any possible explanation for attacking U.N. institutions and U.N. officials in Iraq right now, given the record of the United Nations helping the Iraqi people over these years?

ALDOURI: Well, of course not. I can't really find any explanation for that. The United Nations is serving Iraqi people right now.

BLITZER: The last time we spoke, Mr. Ambassador, you said Saddam Hussein is in the past, in the past of Iraq.

ALDOURI: Yes.

BLITZER: Do you believe he or his supporters directly might have been responsible for this attack or do you see this as outsiders, al Qaeda, for example, non-Iraqis?

ALDOURI: Well, really I still insist that the whole system, the whole -- Saddam Hussein and all others belong to the past.

BLITZER: Right now the major problem in Iraq -- you say the major problem is the U.S.-led occupation as opposed to the remnants of the Baath regime? Is that what you're saying?

ALDOURI: Well, I think now the responsibility is on the shoulder of Americans and the British in Iraq. This is the main and the direct responsibility of the occupation, they are.

We still hope that we will see the end of this occupation and after that we will not need such a crime, such problems in Iraq.

BLITZER: Mohammed Aldouri, thanks very much for joining us.







Aired August 19, 2003 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Twin bombings, we're following major acts of terror in Baghdad and Jerusalem, among the casualties in Iraq a prominent member of the United Nations.
WOLF BLITZER REPORTS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Baghdad bombing, a sudden and stunning blast rips through the U.N. Headquarters in Iraq.

DAVID MARSHALL, WITNESS: The roof collapsed. Lights went out and dust was everywhere. There was chaos in the building.

BLITZER: Extraordinary stories from survivors in their own words, urgent rescue efforts in the rubble with top U.N. officials among the many casualties.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing can excuse this act of unprovoked and murderous violence.

BLITZER: Has Iraq turned into a quagmire for all who get involved?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The civilized world will not be intimidated and these killers will not determine the future of Iraq.

BLITZER: Today, I'm joined by two men at odds over that future, U.S. diplomatic troubleshooter Richard Holbrooke and Saddam Hussein's former man in New York Mohammed AlDouri.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, TERROR IN BAGHDAD. Reporting from Washington here's Wolf Blitzer.

BLITZER: You're looking live at the United Nations Headquarters in Baghdad, a side of it obliterated today by a bomb. It's the most brazen attack since the end of major combat in Iraq.

Take a look at these pictures right now. A truck bomb ripped through a hotel housing the U.N. Headquarters in Baghdad. At least 17 people are dead, among them the top U.N. envoy in Iraq Sergio Vieira de Mello. Up to 100 more have been wounded.

Also, a day of terror in Jerusalem where just hours ago a suicide bombing tore apart a packed Jerusalem passenger bus, people returning from prayers at the Western Wall in Jerusalem. At least 20 people have been killed including children. Dozens, dozens of others have been wounded, many of them very seriously. We'll have much more on this developing story in just a moment.

First though, the attack in Baghdad, shocking in its scale, its boldness, and its choice of target the United Nations offices in the Iraqi capital.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): TV cameras rolling at the very moment of devastation. U.N. officials say the truck bomb went off right below the window of the chief U.N. representative to Iraq Sergio Vieira de Mello. Vieira de Mello later died in the rubble. His aide, near him at the time of the blast, spoke to CNN's Jane Arraf.

SALIM LONE, U.N. SPOKESMAN: I grieve for him. I grieve for his family. I grieve for all his friends but I grieve most of all for the people of Iraq because he was the man who could really have helped bring about an end to occupation, an end to the trauma the people of Iraq have felt for so long.

BLITZER: The chief U.S. official in Iraq says the truck bomb may have been strategically placed.

PAUL BREMER, U.S. CIVILIAN ADMINISTRATOR: It may well be that he was the target of this attack. The truck was parked in such a place here in front of the building that it had to affect his office, which was on the second floor above us here.

BLITZER: Dozens were trapped beneath the rubble. Dozens of others wounded, day survivors led out by U.S. troops.

MARSHALL: I was in the meeting on the second floor of the Canal Hotel and -- there was an extraordinary explosion which blew me and those in the meeting off our seats against the wall. The roof collapsed. Lights went out and dust was everywhere.

BLITZER: The blast caused one entire side of the U.N. office at the Canal Hotel to collapse, damaged other nearby structures, windows shattered nearly a mile away. Paul Bremer said the U.S.-backed coalition will leave no stone unturned to find those responsible.

BREMER: These people are not content with having killed thousands of people before. They just want to keep killing and killing and killing and they won't have their way.

BLITZER: By day's end, symbols of loss and a difficult mission.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And, as we reported, TV news cameras were rolling when the bomb went off. Japanese broadcaster NHK captured the terrifying sounds and images.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: As the lights up you can see the dust and the confusion as people begin to realize what's happened. You also see some of the injured, some with very bloody wounds as the entire group slowly makes its way outside.

The scene of the attack, the Canal Hotel complex on the east side of central Baghdad, the hotel operates more as an office building. Hundreds of U.N. workers are based there and the cafeteria is frequented by humanitarian workers and journalists.

The three-story building houses most of the U.N. offices in Iraq. Before the war it was the headquarters for the U.N. weapons inspectors. A clinic for people with spinal cord injuries is next door to the hotel, part of that building also was destroyed and some patients were reportedly trapped in the rubble for a time.

It's a scene or horror and devastation and grim resolve as rescuers dig through the rubble. They're continuing to do so right now.

We go live to CNN's Baghdad Bureau Chief Jane Arraf. She's joining us by phone. She's inside the U.N. compound. Jane, set the scene for us right now.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF (via telephone): Wolf, the main thing is that the rescue efforts have ended. There's heavy equipment right now in front of us and the excavator bringing out huge chunks of concrete and metal, basically trying to clear the major part of the debris.

Now, a U.N. person on the site tells us that they are still missing one person, one person unaccounted for. Apart from that, though, the rescue efforts have clearly stopped and the Army has brought in heavy equipment just to try to clear some of that debris.

The FBI has been in roping off a huge crater that was left when the truck bomb went off. Now, it appears to have gone down an access road, one of the least guarded places in this U.N. complex, clearly an attack that was well thought out aimed at hitting the most vulnerable point and causing the maximum damage and maximum casualties -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jane, what's the reaction among the U.N. personnel? Are they going to stay there? Do they want to pick up and get out? What are they saying to you?

ARRAF: Most of them were simply shell shocked. In fact, it's hard to find anyone who had not been injured who was not wandering around with blood stained clothing or torn clothing or in literal shock.

They're going to regroup. They've gone back to their hotel, the same (unintelligible) hotels. It's part of security measures. They all stay in the same places and senior officials in the U.N., the surviving senior officials are holding a meeting early in the morning with coalition authorities.

Clearly a lot of these people will want to go home. They now have nowhere to work. This isn't the only U.N. complex but it was the main one and certainly the most visible one and after something like this it would be very difficult for many of them to continue working here.

We have to say, though, that there were about half of them local staff, Iraqis. They obviously have no choice. They live here and they will continue to hopefully try to maintain their jobs. But as for the future of U.N. operations here that's still unclear -- Wolf.

BLITZER: A terrifying situation indeed. Jane Arraf on the scene for us in Baghdad, thanks Jane very much.

Here's your turn, our viewers that is, to weigh in on the story. Our web question of the day is this: "Is Iraq becoming a quagmire for the U.S."? We'll have the results later in this broadcast.

You can vote right now at cnn.com/wolf, and while you're there I'd love to hear directly from you our viewers. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also, of course, where you can read my daily online column, cnn.com/wolf.

Much more coming up on the Baghdad bombing today but let's move on elsewhere in the middle east. Just hours after that bombing in Baghdad, terror in the streets of Jerusalem, a suicide bombing on a city bus killed at least 20 people wounded dozens more and now Israel has suspended talks with the Palestinian Authority on withdrawing from Palestinian cities.

CNN's Jerrold Kessel is on the scene. He's joining us now live from Jerusalem, Jerrold, a horrifying, horrifying event.

JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Horrifying, a mild word perhaps Wolf. Grim scenes as you can see behind me as the cleanup work in the bus continues. All the bodies have been taken away, all the wounded long taken away.

At least 18 confirmed dead, possibly as high as 20 killed by the suicide bomber who came from Hebron on the West Bank, 100 people wounded many of them children.

At least one small child among the dead, some of the children fighting for their lives among the 16 people who were reported to be seriously hurt in this attack shattering the relative calm of the last seven weeks.

Palestinian militant groups who were meeting with Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas as the bombing took place saying they stayed true to the ceasefire and this was, claiming responsibility the Islamic Jihad and Hamas, was a response, a revenge attack for Israel's initiated attack they say in Hebron on Thursday in which a Islamic Jihad leader was killed. The Israelis have suspended their talks with the Palestinians about ongoing measures to try to get the peace process, the road map for peace going, all those talks off, and the Israelis say they will not hand over now, for now at least, further control of towns in the West Bank to the Palestinians. Further work of cleanup continues here, very grim mood indeed -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jerrold, Islamic Jihad apparently has claimed responsibility for this attack. Are they saying in their statement why they did this? I thought there was supposed to be a so-called ceasefire until the end of September.

KESSEL: Yes, we've had in fact two claims of ceasefire within the last hour or so, Wolf, both the Islamic radical group Islamic Jihad and Hamas claiming responsibility. Both say that they remain true to the ceasefire which they proclaimed seven weeks ago but this was a response to the Israeli action, the Israeli-initiated killings of their people.

They say, however, they'll keep to the ceasefire. They will not let Israeli killings of their people go unanswered and this is what it was but it was certainly a very savage answer -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jerrold Kessel for us in Jerusalem we'll be coming back there later this hour thanks Jerrold very much for that report.

President Bush, meanwhile, is at his Texas ranch. He found himself having to react to both of these horrific bombings in just the span of a few hours.

Our White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is joining us now live from Crawford, Texas, two statements, two very strong reactions from the president Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this has been a very difficult day for the Bush administration. A White House spokesman condemning the Israeli bombing in the strongest terms possible, calling it a vicious act of terror, encouraging the Palestinian Authority as well as Israeli security to work together to dismantle these type of terrorist organizations, but obviously a setback to the peace plan.

The administration, however, White House aides not particularly surprised by that development, by this type of bombing; however, what they were surprised by was this attack in Baghdad against the United Nations.

It was early this morning. President Bush was on the golf course when he got the news, a call from his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. He immediately went back to the Crawford Ranch.

He made some calls, one to the U.S. Ambassador Paul Bremer on the ground in Iraq as well as U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, offering assistance to both, the president taking this as an opportunity, challenges to the world to combat terror, to take them on. As you know, there are at least 18 countries contributing troops inside of Iraq to help with the U.S. peacekeeping force. The United Nations involved in this huge humanitarian effort. But, President Bush really framed this as an attack against the Iraqi people and, in fact, pled for their help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: They are the enemies of the Iraqi people. They are the enemies of every nation that seeks to help the Iraqi people. By their tactics and their targets these murderers reveal themselves once more as enemies of the civilized world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Wolf, there is a debate within the administration now, people seeing it very differently. Some say that, of course, they're worried. They're trying to keep the international coalition together in light of what has happened today.

Others see this really as galvanizing the international community that if they can attack the United Nations that perhaps the United Nations, as well as the Iraqi people, will be even more helpful, more determined in the reconstruction effort inside of Iraq -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux in Crawford, Texas, Suzanne thanks very much.

The United Nations in the line of fire, we'll take you inside the attack that devastated a humanitarian mission. Are terrorists taking over Iraq? We'll take a closer look at that.

Also, a CNN exclusive, Iraq's former U.N. Ambassador Mohammed AlDouri, find out who he thinks is to blame for today's attacks.

And, terminating Arnold Schwarzenegger, we'll talk to Cruz Bustamante to find out how he's beating Arnold Schwarzenegger in the polls, at least for now. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: On a bad day in Baghdad, U.S. forces in Iraq have scored one major success taking into custody a former Iraqi vice president, a key figure on the most wanted list.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): To be described as one of the real hardliners in Saddam Hussein's regime is truly saying something but that's how Taha Yasin Ramadan has often been characterized.

BUSH: I'm really pleased that we've captured the vice president. Slowly but surely we'll find who we need to find. It's just a matter of time.

BLITZER: Kurdish forces say they captured Ramadan in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul and handed him over to the U.S. military. One of Saddam's closest co-conspirators, Ramadan's record of intimidation and alleged atrocities is legendary.

KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: : I can't say for certain he was a war criminal but I'd probably be willing to bet a year's salary that he was, a horrible person, it's great to get him off the streets.

BLITZER: Ramadan started his career as a bank clerk but rose through the Ba'ath Party ranks and helped plot the 1968 coup that eventually brought Saddam to power.

Ramadan is believed to have been a key coordinator of Saddam's brutal suppression of two rebellions after the first Gulf War by the Kurds in the north and Shiite Muslims in the south.

He once suggested that Saddam and George W. Bush settle their differences in a dual. At a meeting of Arab leaders early this year, Saudi Arabia's foreign minister suggested that Saddam step down. Ramadan's reply:

TAHA YASIN RAMADAN, FMR. IRAQI VICE PRESIDENT (through translator): I'll tell you, you loser, you are too small to say anything about our leader Saddam Hussein.

BLITZER: Ramadan was last seen during the war. On March 29, after a suicide bomber killed four U.S. soldiers in Najaf, he issued this ominous decree.

RAMADAN (through translator): This is only the beginning and you will hear more good news in the coming days.

BLITZER: At the same news conference, Ramadan told the U.S.-led coalition pack your bags and leave us alone. Instead, it was Taha Yasin Ramadan who packed his bags when the regime fell.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And we're told he was heavily disguised when he was captured by those Kurdish forces, disguised as a Bedouin.

We'll have much more coming up on this story, the bombing in Jerusalem as well.

But also we're following the political scene out in California. Arnold Schwarzenegger is he losing some ground? Will his new TV ads help him bounce back?

The candidate and Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante, he'll join us next live.

Also, more terror in Iraq, an attack against the U.N. shakes Baghdad to its core, is the situation spiraling out of control? We'll take a closer look.

And, Iraq's former ambassador to the U.N. Mohammed AlDouri, find out what he thinks about the attacks in Iraq. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We'll get back to the terrorist bombings in Baghdad and Jerusalem in just a few moments but first let's check some other important news.

The California recall campaign is taking to the airwaves. Republican candidates Arnold Schwarzenegger and Bill Simon both have new ads out today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER: We the people are doing our job, working hard, raising our families, and paying taxes, but the politicians are not doing their job. We can do better than that, after all we are California.

BILL SIMON: I'm Bill Simon. Gray Davis tripled our car taxes and now Arnold Schwarzenegger's team wants to triple our property taxes, which just goes to show you don't send a liberal to do a tax fighter's job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And, California's governor is about to break his silence on the recall effort. Gray Davis says he'll, and I'm quoting now, "set the record straight" in just a few hours in a major speech.

CNN National Correspondent Bob Franken is covering all these recall events. He's joining us now live from Elk Grove. Bob, set the scene for us.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'm outside the house of the Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante who has said repeatedly that he opposes the recall of the Governor Gray Davis but that he's running for governor himself.

He announced his financial package for the state to try and set things right. It's a combination of tax hikes and budget cutbacks. But when it came time to talk about Governor Gray Davis it was quite clear to many people that the support that he was offering regarding the speech tonight was support that was faint indeed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GOV. CRUZ BUSTAMANTE (D), CALIF. GOV. CANDIDATE: Californians are a very forgiving people. What they don't forgive is arrogance, arrogance in leadership, arrogance in government, arrogance in people.

And so, I think that anybody who goes to the voters and suggests that there have been some things that they would like to change, I think that that's a part of the process that the governor needs to present and then present his specific proposals. I think that's only one step of a process that he must go through. (END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: No one has ever said that the relationship between Bustamante, the Democratic lieutenant governor and Gray Davis, the Democratic governor was particularly close. Davis has any number of problems, a recall effort, a lot of Republicans who want his job and he's got a problem with his fellow Democrat -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Bob Franken in California for us, thanks Bob very much.

And the state's lieutenant governor says he opposes the recall but he also says he's seeking to replace Gray Davis if he is ousted. Cruz Bustamante unveiled his new so-called tough love economic plan today. He's joining us now live from Sacramento. Lieutenant Governor, thanks very much for joining us.

BUSTAMANTE: Thank you.

BLITZER: When you go into the booth to vote on October 7, assuming the election is October 7, will you vote in favor or against the recall of Governor Gray Davis?

BUSTAMANTE: I'm going to vote against the recall. I think that the recall is a high jacking of democracy. I think that the whole issue is extremely disappointing in terms of those folks who organized this. It is a bad process in terms of the institution.

There are already people right now that are talking about recalling the next governor. This is a bad thing to do. I am against the recall. I said it in my announcement. I said it at every single interview with every single process that I've gone through. I am opposed to this recall.

BLITZER: At the same time you're aggressively running. You want to get elected governor if he is recalled, Governor Gray Davis.

BUSTAMANTE: Right.

BLITZER: First of all do you think he will be recalled?

BUSTAMANTE: I don't know. That's always in the hands of the voters. You know a lot of times politicians think that they're in charge but they're not. It's the voters.

Voters are always in charge. They're going to say what they want to have happen. They're going to say who they want to do it and for those folks who don't listen they have this way of being able to get rid of them.

But I'll tell you this, the voters of the state of California have voted for me twice. Over five million people have voted me to be lieutenant governor to step in in the event that the governor was unable to continue.

I think I'm doing that and I'm presenting a campaign of ideas. I'm providing for the Democratic Party a win-win situation. I hope that the recall does not succeed but in the event that it does I'm presenting my ideas to the voters and I'm going to ask them for their consideration.

BLITZER: Well, you've been the lieutenant governor together with Gray Davis. What's different between you and him? If they want to recall him why should they vote for you?

BUSTAMANTE: Well, I think that that's what's before them now. Voters are pretty smart. They're going to do an analysis. They're going to review exactly what's taken place because, although maybe you can consider those folks who organized this recall process and say all kinds of things about them.

The people who signed that ballot, the people who signed that initiative were sending a real strong message to Sacramento. You're not working on the things that we think are important.

You're working on the things you think are important and what we want to do is we want to put everything back up on the table. We want to hear from everybody. We want to hear your ideas and we're going to decide who's going to lead us in the future.

BLITZER: Arnold Schwarzenegger has got a new set of ads. You probably saw some of them starting to run today. What does he not bring to the table? Why should people not vote for him?

BUSTAMANTE: Well, I think that in my very first announcement when I came forward to put my candidacy, I told people immediately that very day that I was opposed to the car tax but I didn't just say in concept.

I gave a very specific proposal on how to deal with what I believe is an unfair burden on working families in California. I spoke specifically about how to deal with that issue.

Again, today, 12 days after I announced I now have a specific budget proposal on how to deal with not only the hole that we have here in terms of our deficit but how to make sure we give back to the people of California. We fix the car tax and we provide a better education to our kids.

BLITZER: Very briefly, Lieutenant Governor, the ACLU and others they're saying that the system is broken in terms of the punch card, the chads, that they should delay the vote until next March. Do you think that they should delay the vote?

BUSTAMANTE: I'm going to leave that to the experts. I tried as the lieutenant governor to give the maximum amount of time that I was able to give under the law so this election would be able to be held and that the counties who are running the elections would have enough time. I'll leave that.

We are clearly concerned that we don't get into another situation like Florida but we clearly have given as much time that was legally available in the law.

BLITZER: Cruz Bustamante, the Lieutenant Governor of California running for governor right now thanks for joining us.

BUSTMANTE: Thank you, Wolf, for having me on.

BLITZER: Terrorists strike in the heart of Baghdad, is Iraq turning into a quagmire for U.S. troops? We'll take a closer look.

Plus a CNN exclusive, an interview with Iraq's former U.N. Ambassador, Mohammed AlDouri.

Also, at the very spot of devastation, the words of a witness in Baghdad.

And should the U.S. rethink it's go-it-alone approach?

Richard Holbrooke joins us live on the future of peacekeeping and security in Iraq.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS terror in Baghdad. Reporting from Washington, here's Wolf Blitzer.

BLITZER: More now on our top story. The bombing of the U.N. headquarters that killed at least 17 people in Baghdad. David Marshall is the United Nations lawyer who was inside the building when the bomb went off. Here's how he describes what he saw in his own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID MARSHALL, U.N. LAWYER: I was at a meeting on the second floor, and at 4:30, a powerful, incredible blast threw me and my colleagues off our chairs against the wall. The roof collapsed. Dust was everywhere. We stayed on the ground for about 30 seconds and then we left the area. It was chaos. There was blood everywhere. The roof seemed to have caved in most of the areas. Rubble was everywhere. We tried to leave the front door -- the front entrance and there were a number of bodies under the rubble, on top of the rubble. They were moved to the center of the parking lot, and then I went to the back of the building where it had collapsed, and -- which is where Sergio is, and there seems to be -- there appeared to me to be a huge crater at the back to the building which resulted in the back of the building collapsing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Marshall says the U.N.'s work in Iraq will continue, despite the attack.

As we reported, the U.N. special envoy to Iraq is among those killed in the bombing. By all account 55-year-old Brazilian Sergio Vieira de Mello leaves a tremendous void.

Here's Michael Okwu.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sergio Vieira de Mello, a 30-year United Nations veteran was handpicked after the war by U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to be his point man in Iraq.

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL: He has an exceptional and unique experience in running these operations. And he is also known as a good team builder and a consensus builder. I think he is someone who will hit the ground running.

OKWU: Right away his no-nonsense style was evidence.

SEGIO VIEIRA DE MELLO, U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY TO IRAQ: I am here to learn (ph). I am not here to make long speeches.

OKWU: His top concern, getting Iraqi more involved in running their country.

DE MELLO: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it's going to have an immense impact on the speed of the end of the occupation.

OKWU: To his spokesman, Kofi Annan issued a tribute to his long time friend.

ANNAN: The death of any colleague is hard to bear, but I could think of no one we could less afford to spare or who will be more missed throughout the U.N. system than Sergio.

OKWU: Just weeks ago, Vieira de Mello issued this warning to the U.N. Security Council.

DE MELLO: The United Nations presence in Iraq remains vulnerable to any who would seek to target our organization. Our security continues to rely significantly on the reputation of the United Nations, our ability to demonstrate meaningfully that we are in Iraq to assist its people and our independence.

OKWU: The 55-year-old Brazilian diplomat is as comfortable in a tailored suit as khakis was used to be thrown into global hot spots. He ran the mission in East Timor. He established a mission in Kosovo, was special envoy in Cambodia and spent years working for refugees. To take the Iraq job, Vieira de Mello, took leave from his post of U.N. high commissioner for human rights.

DE MELLO: I consider the development of the culture of human rights in Iraq as fundamental to stability and true peace in that country.

OKWU: Stability and peace in Iraq. A cause he died for.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: At the United Nations, shock, outrage and mourning. The blue U.N. flag has been lowered to half staff.

Joining me is the spokesman for Secretary-General Kofi Annan, Frank Eckhard. Mr. Eckhard, thanks very much for joining us.

Any indication who is responsible for this attack?

FRED ECKHARD, U.N. SPOKESMAN: We have no idea.

BLITZER: No statements, no nothing is that what you are saying?

ECKHARD: No one has -- excuse me. No one has contacted us with -- claiming responsibility for what happened today. We had no foreknowledge of any particular threat. The security situation in Baghdad, as you know, has not been good for a long time. We know that going in there we had a substantial threat to deal with on an individual basis. I don't think anyone expected the -- a big chunk of our headquarters building to be blown up.

BLITZER: Was there not adequate -- I know you are having trouble hearing me, so I'll wait until you get that ear piece in your ear.

Are you hearing me okay now?

ECKHARD: Yes, I'm sorry.

BLITZER: Was there lack of security around that building?

ECKHARD: No, the security was, I think as good as could be expected. There's been a platoon of coalition troops -- I'm sorry, I'm getting feedback in this.

BLITZER: Mr. Eckhard, you know what we're going to do. We are going to take a quick break. I'm going to come back to you in a moment. But I want to bring in the former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, Richard Holbrooke who is joining us live from our New York studios as well.

Mr. Ambassador, thanks to you for joining us as well. We'll get back to Fred Eckhard in a few moments. You knew this international diplomat quite well. Talk a little bit about this remarkable man.

RICHARD HOLBROOKE, FORMER U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: He was one of these people, Wolf, that the world didn't know but should have known and only discovers in death. I knew him for over 25 years. And he went, as that previous piece showed, everywhere in the world, wherever the danger was greatest. After this brilliant job he did in East Timor, taking a war-torn island and converting it into an independent state in less than two years -- less than three years, Kofi Annan, who he always called his brother, said, time for you to go back to your family, rest, go back to Geneva, do the higher commission on human rights job.

And then as soon as Baghdad appeared, back Sergio went into combat. And it was combat, despite the fact that he was so impeccably dressed. And now we've lost him and -- I'd like to make two points about the lesson, Wolf. No. 1, this was an attack on the United States. Let us be absolutely clear on that. They attacked this hotel because as your terrorism experts have been saying throughout the day, it was a soft target. They attacked it because they knew that was the way to get at us. And that illustrates a deeper point. The United Nations, which is so often maligned, criticized, underfunded and undersupported, particularly by this administration, is, in fact, an indispensable partner in American foreign policy, And nobody illustrated that better than Sergio Vieira de Mello and several others who died in the attack. In Kosovo and Bosnia and East Timor and Afghanistan and Iraq, Sergio Vieira de Mello, was advancing American policy interests while he working for the U.N.

BLITZER: What's the other lesson that you learned?

HOLBROOKE: The two lessons. no. 1, the U.S. was the real target today and the second one is the U.N. needs much, much more support from Washington. We spend $1 billion a week in Iraq, and the U.N. gets $1 billion a year. The second point is very clear here that the terrorists, whoever they are, the guerrillas are changing the soft targets. This presents the Bush administration with a hellish dilemma.

BLITZER: So let me -- Mr. Ambassador, does that mean at this point the U.S. -- because you supported the war. You supported the president going into this war.

HOLBROOKE: I did.

BLITZER: Does this mean the U.S. should now give more of the responsibility over to the U.N.?

HOLBROOKE: I supported the war, but I was precise in interviews with you and before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. A war is only as good as the peace that follows. This administration had no plan for the peace that followed. They are doing it as they go along, and now they have three choices. They can beef up their forces, which will mean more U.S. casualties and more ownership, and it will be hard to protect every installation, no matter how many troops. No 2, they could start a withdrawal, a la Vietnam and Somalia, which would be a disaster, and number three, they can go international. Get the right kind of U.N. resolution, share the burden and recognize people like Sergio Vieira de Mello and his colleagues, and give them the support they need.

BLITZER: Mr. Ambassador, thanks very much for joining us.

HOLBROOKE: I think it's clear, excuse me for interrupting, Wolf, but I think it's clear from those three choices which one I would favor. I cannot understand why the administration, for what appears to be ideological reasons, keeps undermining the U.N., when we have people like de Mello serving our national interest and advancing them, all over the world. They need more support, and we need to support the U.N.

BLITZER: I'm sure that that's what Fred Eckhard wants to hear as well. Richard Holbrooke, thanks very much for joining us.

I think Fred Eckhard is back. We have all the communications fixed up. Where does the U.N., Mr. Eckhard, go from here in the aftermath of this devastating loss, in terms of Iraq?

ECKHARD: You were reading the tea leaves this morning. The Security Council held a meeting. They were briefed on what happened in Baghdad today, and the spokesmen for the president of the council came out and said that the council wants to continue working in Iraq and not to be deterred by this attack. The secretary-general issued a statement shortly after that saying let Sergio de Mello not have died in vain. Let's continue our work in Iraq. So the political signals are clear. We want to stay in Iraq and finish the job that we started.

The reality is that we have international staff from around the world who expect to work in an environment that might be risky, but that it's not lethal.

BLITZER: Fred Eckhard, our deepest condolences to you, to Kofi Annan, to everyone at the United Nations, and especially the family and friends of this outstanding diplomat and all the U.N. personnel, everyone else who was killed in Baghdad today. Thanks very much for joining us.

ECKHARD: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Is Iraq fertile ground for terrorists? The Pentagon's assessment of the threat and how to counter it when we come back.

And we'll also go live to Jerusalem again to hear from a rescuer on the scene of today's terrorist bus bombing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More now on today's deadly suicide bombing on a city bus in Jerusalem. Joining us from Jerusalem is Eli Beer. He's an emergency unit commander, one of the first on the scene. Mr. Beer, thanks very much for joining us. What is the latest information in terms of killed and injured that you can report?

ELI BEER, COMMANDER, EMERGENCY UNIT: What officially we can report is around 15 for sure that were dead and over 110 people hurt. And we -- I'm saying officially, because we probably have more than 15 dead.

BLITZER: What -- why was this bus so packed? Was it -- how did so many people fit on to a bus like that?

BEER: This is an extra long bus. This is a bus that's very busy. It comes back from the Wailing Wall in the old city of Jerusalem, and it's -- right now, time of vacation, people go with their children, and lots of children were on the bus. Lots of children. I don't remember seeing a bus full with so many on a bomb attack.

BLITZER: So this bus started at the Wailing Wall, the western wall in Jerusalem, and where was it heading?

BEER: It was heading to a neighborhood of Harnets (ph) in Jerusalem. It was the number two bus from the Wailing Wall, from the western wall. We're not for far away. It's right here, towards Harnets (ph), that's south of Jerusalem.

BLITZER: And as far as you know, did a terrorist go on board the bus with a suicide vest and simply detonate it, or was there some explosive that was planted elsewhere nearby?

BEER: No, the terrorist went on the bus. They have -- I heard one of the people that we were treating. She told me, she saw him, he was dressed up as a Jew, as an Orthodox Jew. We're not sure about that. The police will know that answer. But he was probably in the middle of the bus, and that's when he exploded himself, he exploded himself.

BLITZER: Aren't these people usually, where they board these buses, aren't the driver -- don't they usually check out people before they allow them to get on a bus?

BEER: They certainly do, and especially from places like the old city in Jerusalem. They can't have 100 percent protection, but they try the maximum. They try checking every person and looking for any suspicious people. But unfortunately, this time it didn't work, and you can't have 100 percent security. Even so, they try their best.

BLITZER: So what is happening right now? Have all the bodies been removed of the injured, the wounded been taken to the hospital?

BEER: Well, until now, the members of Hatsallah (ph, Jerusalem and MDA (ph), we were treating all the people that were hurt. We transferred over 110 people to hospitals. We treated them on the spot, plenty of children and babies. And right now they are taking care of the people that were killed on the spot, bringing them over to towards Tel Aviv, where the main morgue of Israel is.

BLITZER: Eli Beer, our condolences to you and...

BEER: I just want to say -- I just want to add something. Our members were right here. We had a bar mitzvah, right here of -- one of the members of Hatsallah (ph) was right here. We made a bar mitzvah right on the corner, right on my left. He made a bar mitzvah. So we heard the bomb as it happened. We heard the bomb explode. And we ran outside. We didn't even have to go into ambulances. They were all professional medics and they ran to save people's lives. And I am sure plenty of people's lives were saved because our motorcycle unit and the guys that came so fast. So I hope we don't have these things over again, but we tried our best, and thank God we saved a lot of people's lives.

BLITZER: Thank God. Eli Beer, thank you very much for joining us. Our condolences to you of course and to all of our friends and family and everyone else on the scene as well. Thank you very much for joining us.

How freely to terrorists operate in Iraq? The Pentagon's assessment of the real threat, that's coming up. Also, a very, very different view of the Baghdad explosion and the future of the U.N. mission. My exclusive conversation with Iraq's former U.N. ambassador, Mohammed Aldouri. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The Bush administration argued before the war that Iraq was closely tied to terrorism. Critics contested that claim, but these days there can be little doubt that terrorists have been drawn in there.

Here's CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the type of attack the U.S. military had already been fearing for days. The bombing of the United Nations compound increasing worries the war has shifted yet again and the U.S. is battling organized terrorists who are unfailing a wake of attacks against soft targets, facilities not heavily protect. No one knows who was responsible for this attack, but there is growing evidence that post-war Iraq has become a magnet for terrorists.

PETER BERGEN, TERRORISM ANALYST: Al Qaeda is in Iraq. And we're talking about something that's a recent phenomenon. We're talking about people coming over from Saudi Arabia, over the Syrian/Iraqi border into Iraq.

STARR: U.S. officials say an unknown number of foreign fighters continue to cross into Iraq. In early June, U.S. troops attacked a suspected terrorist camp, killing a number of non-Iraqi fighters. On August 7th, a bombing at the Jordanian embassy in Baghdad, more than a dozen killed. A top suspect, Ansar al Islam, a radical group with ties to al Qaeda. That group has increased its operations in Iraq, say U.S. officials. Some Shia clerics now calling for resistance against the coalition. If Shia forces join with the opposition, a new resistance challenge.

KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: There are people inside of Iraq who really don't the U.S. there. They are former members of Saddam's regime, Islamic fundamentalists, Sunni Arab tribesmen, all of whom don't want the Americans there, all of who are taking shots at the Americans and all who might make common cause with al Qaeda.

STARR: This week, aggressive new sabotage attacks against water supplies and oil pipelines. Another element in what U.S. officials believe is a campaign to turn the Iraqis against the coalition.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: Wolf, so far no change in U.S. military policy, no requests for additional combat troops, but the Pentagon hopes this terrorist attack will demonstrate to the Iraqis that the terrorists have gone too far and that the Iraqi people will turn and now support the United States -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thanks, Barbara. Earlier I talked about the attack in an exclusive telephone interview with Mohammed Aldouri. He has a unique perspective on the situation as the former Iraqi ambassador to the U.N. He says the U.S. military occupation is creating a fertile ground for terrorism.

MOHAMMED ALDOURI, FORMER IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: It is very sad day also for me, for all the international community, I guess, and also for Iraqi people.

BLITZER: Who do you believe might be responsible for killing these U.N. officials and others inside the Canal Hotel?

ALDOURI: You know, really, I can't say, I can't speculate on that. But, Mr. Blitzer, I think this is a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of the occupation, of American occupation. Unfortunately there was a lot of casualties today in Baghdad.

But who is responsible directly really I can't say, but indirectly I think the occupation is responsible of that.

BLITZER: I don't know if you know that the chief U.N. representative, Sergio Vieira de Mello, is among those who were killed today, an international diplomat, many years at the U.N. Did you know him during your tenure there?

ALDOURI: Well, unfortunately I didn't meet with him, but I have heard a lot of him. So allow me extend my condolences to his family and to the secretary general, Kofi Annan, and to all those people who are working in the United Nations, all the staff (UNINTELLIGIBLE) all over the world.

BLITZER: Is there any possible explanation for attacking U.N. institutions and U.N. officials in Iraq right now, given the record of the United Nations helping the Iraqi people over these years?

ALDOURI: Well, of course not. I can't really find any explanation for that. The United Nations is serving Iraqi people right now.

BLITZER: The last time we spoke, Mr. Ambassador, you said Saddam Hussein is in the past, in the past of Iraq.

ALDOURI: Yes.

BLITZER: Do you believe he or his supporters directly might have been responsible for this attack or do you see this as outsiders, al Qaeda, for example, non-Iraqis?

ALDOURI: Well, really I still insist that the whole system, the whole -- Saddam Hussein and all others belong to the past.

BLITZER: Right now the major problem in Iraq -- you say the major problem is the U.S.-led occupation as opposed to the remnants of the Baath regime? Is that what you're saying?

ALDOURI: Well, I think now the responsibility is on the shoulder of Americans and the British in Iraq. This is the main and the direct responsibility of the occupation, they are.

We still hope that we will see the end of this occupation and after that we will not need such a crime, such problems in Iraq.

BLITZER: Mohammed Aldouri, thanks very much for joining us.