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American Morning

Rescue Workers Searching For Small Possibility For Survivors

Aired August 20, 2003 - 08:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to get back to Iraq right now. The questions continue yet again today. Rescue workers searching for the small possibility for survivors. There's also a chance that the U.N. workers, some may still be missing, the bodies, anyway, inside that rubble.
Earlier today, Kofi Annan was speaking in Stockholm, Sweden, shortly before returning to U.N. headquarters a bit later today here in New York City.

His comments again earlier today, expressing regret for the lost colleagues, but insisting that the U.N. will not leave Iraq. That attack killing at least 17 people thus far, including the U.N.'s top envoy.

Rym Brahimi back with us live near the scene there in eastern Baghdad -- Rym, good afternoon again.

RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Bill.

Indeed, as you were mentioning, still work continuing under very, very hot temperatures. It's something like 130 degrees Fahrenheit, which is why I have to wear this hat, Bill. But just so you can see behind me again, there is still some activity at this scene, where there's rubble. You can see that there have been a few -- there's been some movement all morning. In fact, a couple of hours ago, we saw some -- we saw a team of people pulling out a body on a stretcher. We don't know whether that body was alive or dead.

Now, of course, the big question, as you mentioned, Bill, is who would have wanted to do this. And there's been a lot of speculation. Let's hear to -- let's listen to what Paul Bremer had to say about this, the top U.S. diplomat here in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

L. PAUL Bremer, U.S./IRAQ RECONSTRUCTION ADMINISTRATOR: We're not going to rest until we find these terrorists. It's part of a global war against terrorism that was declared really officially on us on September 11 and it's a war we're going to have to fight where the terrorists are, and unfortunately the terrorists are now here in Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRAHIMI: Basically, Paul Bremer talking about terrorists. The coalition authorities have said in the past that there are foreign fighters here in Iraq. And, of course, the United Nations has pointed out after this incident that it is up to the occupying power, in other words, the United States, to ensure the security in the country and there seems to be a question as to how well this can be achieved, if, indeed, there are acts of terrorism like this and acts of violence on a regular basis -- Bill.

HEMMER: Rym Brahimi live in Baghdad.

Rym, thanks for that update there.

That hotel, the Canal Hotel, is in the eastern part of Baghdad. It's been used by the U.N. inspectors following the first Gulf War, 1991, and then later used as a positioning point for U.N. inspectors going back to the end of 2002.

Our next guest now from Baghdad, one of the first journalists on the scene of the bombing yesterday.

Ray Hassall works for the "Baghdad Bulletin."

He was on the scene almost immediately yesterday.

He is our guest right now from the Iraqi capital and the same location as Rym Brahimi.

We appreciate your time, Ray, and tell us what you first saw when you came upon the scene yesterday afternoon, 4:30 Baghdad time.

RAY HASSALL, "BAGHDAD BULLETIN": Well, after rounding the corners -- our office is only 500 meters away -- it was painfully clear that something terrible had happened. There was a big plume of smoke that was rising up from where we knew the Canal Hotel to be. It was chaos on the road, traffic along the canal road, the front of the hotel, was grinding to a halt and people were trying to get out. The military were getting onto the scene very quickly and closing the roads. There was traffic going the wrong way down the side of the road and there was chaos, basically, bloodied and dusted people leaving the Canal Hotel.

HEMMER: Prior to yesterday, Ray, have you ever worked at this particular location before? And if you have, what was security like for you trying to go to work there?

HASSALL: Well, yes, I haven't actually worked there before, but they had an Internet cafe which was for the use of NGOs. At first, security wasn't particularly tight. I know that one of my colleagues actually entered the building by showing his student identification number to use the Internet cafe. But that did improve and there was, became a sort of more strict regulations of who goes in and their identification or passport or something was taken away from them before they entered the building and they had to have a contact in the building.

But I know that people could get in and out. Where there's a will, there's a way.

HEMMER: Did U.N. workers ever tell you or others, expressing concern about their own safety?

HASSALL: From the United Nations?

HEMMER: Correct.

HASSALL: Well, some of them have talked to my colleagues and saying that the U.N. had been seriously downplaying in the media the threat that they felt. At the time that this happened, the U.N. was on a security phase four, which was to be downgraded under what they perceived as pressure from the coalition to a U.N. phase three. Phase four technically, if they were reading that to the letter, the United Nations should not have been in this country at all.

HEMMER: Wow.

HASSALL: And many felt that threat.

HEMMER: Listen, what are the Iraqi...

HASSALL: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that Iraq...

HEMMER: What are the Iraqis saying, if you move back into the center of town, what is their reaction to what they saw yesterday and what occurred there?

HASSALL: Well, it's not an animated reaction. Many Iraqis are feeling quite despondent. They're worried that this is going to affect Western businesses returning, whether the security is going to -- there's going to be a big clampdown on security, which is going to sort of impose upon their lives even further. The rumors are flying around already, the conspiracy theories that, in fact, that this was a big American plot and that it was an American bomber that bombed the Canal Hotel.

And sort of dissatisfaction and some are even so despondent now that they feel that why should anyone care, why should anyone help us when this is how Iraq repays the United Nations and those who come to help?

HEMMER: That's Ray Hassall with the "Baghdad Bulletin" right near the scene there.

You stay safe and thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

Continue to do your work there in Iraq, as well.

Thank you, Ray.

HASSALL: Thank you, Bill.

HEMMER: Here's Soledad.

Sure.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Could al Qaeda be responsible for the deadly truck bombing at the U.N.'s headquarters? Terrorism analyst Peter Bergen thinks so and he joins us this morning from Washington, D.C.

Good morning to you, Peter.

Nice to see you.

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Good morning, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: There is, in many people's minds -- and no one has stepped forward yet to take, to claim responsibility, but there is a sort of short list of the usual suspects. Why do you think al Qaeda is at the top of that list for you?

BERGEN: Well, I think it's not only this attack, which was a suicide bombing against a high value target, which is kind of an al Qaeda mood, but also the attack on the Jordanian embassy on August 7, which was a day, which is a day that al Qaeda has attacked before, attacking the U.S. embassies in Africa on August the 7th, '98, a day that they attack on because that was the -- August the 7th, 1990 is when President Bush Senior announced U.S. troops should go to Saudi Arabia, which has always been one of the their bug beds.

So, first of all, the U.N. attack, secondly, the attack on the Jordanian embassy, I think if you -- you have to look at al Qaeda as the lead suspect. You know, these are groups, this is a group that has expertise in suicide bombings. I think, first of all, they can recruit people to do suicide bombings. Secondly, they've got the expertise to build the bombs. And thirdly, they've got the motivation to do these kinds of attacks.

O'BRIEN: Why...

BERGEN: Plus -- go ahead.

O'BRIEN: I'm sorry, Peter. I just wanted to ask you, why target the U.N.? Because you're basically leading up to all of the reasons why you think it's al Qaeda, but why target the U.N., where the mission is overridingly humanitarian, where the overriding goal is to end the American occupation? Why that as a target?

BERGEN: I think it's actually kind of brilliant in a sense. I mean it's a diabolical sense. Targeting the U.N. is a way of signaling to other countries around the world, don't get involved in Iraq. You know, the United States is looking for additional allies, additional partners, because there's not enough people to police and control this country. And already India and Pakistan have said no thanks.

I think the attack on the U.N., if people were considering, other countries were considering sending in their troops, the attack on the U.N. may well make them reconsider.

So I'm not sure what the motivation is. Getting inside the minds of these people is very difficult. But that might be one of them.

But I think also, going to a more general point, Soledad, I've talked to multiple U.S. officials in intelligence, law enforcement, counter-terrorism, and they all say the same thing, al Qaeda has established itself in Iraq, an immensely ironic development, since, after all, we went to war because of a putative connection between Iraq and al Qaeda, which in my mind never really existed or was certainly tenuous. Now we've got it.

And al Qaeda is going to be -- they used, the officials I talked to used words like super magnet or magnet to describe the role that Iraq now plays for al Qaeda. Iraq is going to become al Qaeda's most important battleground. And unfortunately I think we are seeing the beginning of a new phase in terrorism. These are not two incidents that are not going to be repeated. I think they're going to be repeated quite often, because you've got literally thousands of people -- I've talked to a leading Saudi dissident, Saud al-Fagi (ph), who has been a very good source on al Qaeda. He talks about 3,000 Saudis coming into Iraq in the last two months. One of his sources talks about how Iraq is like the new Pashara (ph). That's a reference to the town in Pakistan that was a center for the resistance against the Soviets in Afghanistan and drew Muslims from around the world who wanted to participate in that Jihad.

This is seen in, by the al Qaedas of the world as a justified Jihad. You've got an army occupying a Muslim country and unfortunately this is the future. You're going to see more of these attacks and I think you're going to see al Qaeda's fingerprints on them.

O'BRIEN: When we spoke to Paul Bremer earlier today, he said that he doesn't think this will overridingly change the efforts for reconstruction. It sounds like you're completely disagreeing here. Do you think eventually this is, to some degree, just a lost cause, that reconstruction will not happen until there's some massive change?

BERGEN: Well, no, because I think both of these things can be true at once. I mean, you know, the United States is going to continue with its policies. It's not going to withdraw. But I think we're going to have to recognize that there's going to be -- these kinds of attacks are going to continue. But you can continue to, although, you know, the question of reconstruction is not, is sort of outside of my purview. But all I can say is that I think these attacks are the harbinger of things to come.

O'BRIEN: Peter Bergen, thanks for joining us.

Nice to see you, as always.

BERGEN: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Survivors>


Aired August 20, 2003 - 08:04   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to get back to Iraq right now. The questions continue yet again today. Rescue workers searching for the small possibility for survivors. There's also a chance that the U.N. workers, some may still be missing, the bodies, anyway, inside that rubble.
Earlier today, Kofi Annan was speaking in Stockholm, Sweden, shortly before returning to U.N. headquarters a bit later today here in New York City.

His comments again earlier today, expressing regret for the lost colleagues, but insisting that the U.N. will not leave Iraq. That attack killing at least 17 people thus far, including the U.N.'s top envoy.

Rym Brahimi back with us live near the scene there in eastern Baghdad -- Rym, good afternoon again.

RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Bill.

Indeed, as you were mentioning, still work continuing under very, very hot temperatures. It's something like 130 degrees Fahrenheit, which is why I have to wear this hat, Bill. But just so you can see behind me again, there is still some activity at this scene, where there's rubble. You can see that there have been a few -- there's been some movement all morning. In fact, a couple of hours ago, we saw some -- we saw a team of people pulling out a body on a stretcher. We don't know whether that body was alive or dead.

Now, of course, the big question, as you mentioned, Bill, is who would have wanted to do this. And there's been a lot of speculation. Let's hear to -- let's listen to what Paul Bremer had to say about this, the top U.S. diplomat here in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

L. PAUL Bremer, U.S./IRAQ RECONSTRUCTION ADMINISTRATOR: We're not going to rest until we find these terrorists. It's part of a global war against terrorism that was declared really officially on us on September 11 and it's a war we're going to have to fight where the terrorists are, and unfortunately the terrorists are now here in Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRAHIMI: Basically, Paul Bremer talking about terrorists. The coalition authorities have said in the past that there are foreign fighters here in Iraq. And, of course, the United Nations has pointed out after this incident that it is up to the occupying power, in other words, the United States, to ensure the security in the country and there seems to be a question as to how well this can be achieved, if, indeed, there are acts of terrorism like this and acts of violence on a regular basis -- Bill.

HEMMER: Rym Brahimi live in Baghdad.

Rym, thanks for that update there.

That hotel, the Canal Hotel, is in the eastern part of Baghdad. It's been used by the U.N. inspectors following the first Gulf War, 1991, and then later used as a positioning point for U.N. inspectors going back to the end of 2002.

Our next guest now from Baghdad, one of the first journalists on the scene of the bombing yesterday.

Ray Hassall works for the "Baghdad Bulletin."

He was on the scene almost immediately yesterday.

He is our guest right now from the Iraqi capital and the same location as Rym Brahimi.

We appreciate your time, Ray, and tell us what you first saw when you came upon the scene yesterday afternoon, 4:30 Baghdad time.

RAY HASSALL, "BAGHDAD BULLETIN": Well, after rounding the corners -- our office is only 500 meters away -- it was painfully clear that something terrible had happened. There was a big plume of smoke that was rising up from where we knew the Canal Hotel to be. It was chaos on the road, traffic along the canal road, the front of the hotel, was grinding to a halt and people were trying to get out. The military were getting onto the scene very quickly and closing the roads. There was traffic going the wrong way down the side of the road and there was chaos, basically, bloodied and dusted people leaving the Canal Hotel.

HEMMER: Prior to yesterday, Ray, have you ever worked at this particular location before? And if you have, what was security like for you trying to go to work there?

HASSALL: Well, yes, I haven't actually worked there before, but they had an Internet cafe which was for the use of NGOs. At first, security wasn't particularly tight. I know that one of my colleagues actually entered the building by showing his student identification number to use the Internet cafe. But that did improve and there was, became a sort of more strict regulations of who goes in and their identification or passport or something was taken away from them before they entered the building and they had to have a contact in the building.

But I know that people could get in and out. Where there's a will, there's a way.

HEMMER: Did U.N. workers ever tell you or others, expressing concern about their own safety?

HASSALL: From the United Nations?

HEMMER: Correct.

HASSALL: Well, some of them have talked to my colleagues and saying that the U.N. had been seriously downplaying in the media the threat that they felt. At the time that this happened, the U.N. was on a security phase four, which was to be downgraded under what they perceived as pressure from the coalition to a U.N. phase three. Phase four technically, if they were reading that to the letter, the United Nations should not have been in this country at all.

HEMMER: Wow.

HASSALL: And many felt that threat.

HEMMER: Listen, what are the Iraqi...

HASSALL: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that Iraq...

HEMMER: What are the Iraqis saying, if you move back into the center of town, what is their reaction to what they saw yesterday and what occurred there?

HASSALL: Well, it's not an animated reaction. Many Iraqis are feeling quite despondent. They're worried that this is going to affect Western businesses returning, whether the security is going to -- there's going to be a big clampdown on security, which is going to sort of impose upon their lives even further. The rumors are flying around already, the conspiracy theories that, in fact, that this was a big American plot and that it was an American bomber that bombed the Canal Hotel.

And sort of dissatisfaction and some are even so despondent now that they feel that why should anyone care, why should anyone help us when this is how Iraq repays the United Nations and those who come to help?

HEMMER: That's Ray Hassall with the "Baghdad Bulletin" right near the scene there.

You stay safe and thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

Continue to do your work there in Iraq, as well.

Thank you, Ray.

HASSALL: Thank you, Bill.

HEMMER: Here's Soledad.

Sure.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Could al Qaeda be responsible for the deadly truck bombing at the U.N.'s headquarters? Terrorism analyst Peter Bergen thinks so and he joins us this morning from Washington, D.C.

Good morning to you, Peter.

Nice to see you.

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Good morning, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: There is, in many people's minds -- and no one has stepped forward yet to take, to claim responsibility, but there is a sort of short list of the usual suspects. Why do you think al Qaeda is at the top of that list for you?

BERGEN: Well, I think it's not only this attack, which was a suicide bombing against a high value target, which is kind of an al Qaeda mood, but also the attack on the Jordanian embassy on August 7, which was a day, which is a day that al Qaeda has attacked before, attacking the U.S. embassies in Africa on August the 7th, '98, a day that they attack on because that was the -- August the 7th, 1990 is when President Bush Senior announced U.S. troops should go to Saudi Arabia, which has always been one of the their bug beds.

So, first of all, the U.N. attack, secondly, the attack on the Jordanian embassy, I think if you -- you have to look at al Qaeda as the lead suspect. You know, these are groups, this is a group that has expertise in suicide bombings. I think, first of all, they can recruit people to do suicide bombings. Secondly, they've got the expertise to build the bombs. And thirdly, they've got the motivation to do these kinds of attacks.

O'BRIEN: Why...

BERGEN: Plus -- go ahead.

O'BRIEN: I'm sorry, Peter. I just wanted to ask you, why target the U.N.? Because you're basically leading up to all of the reasons why you think it's al Qaeda, but why target the U.N., where the mission is overridingly humanitarian, where the overriding goal is to end the American occupation? Why that as a target?

BERGEN: I think it's actually kind of brilliant in a sense. I mean it's a diabolical sense. Targeting the U.N. is a way of signaling to other countries around the world, don't get involved in Iraq. You know, the United States is looking for additional allies, additional partners, because there's not enough people to police and control this country. And already India and Pakistan have said no thanks.

I think the attack on the U.N., if people were considering, other countries were considering sending in their troops, the attack on the U.N. may well make them reconsider.

So I'm not sure what the motivation is. Getting inside the minds of these people is very difficult. But that might be one of them.

But I think also, going to a more general point, Soledad, I've talked to multiple U.S. officials in intelligence, law enforcement, counter-terrorism, and they all say the same thing, al Qaeda has established itself in Iraq, an immensely ironic development, since, after all, we went to war because of a putative connection between Iraq and al Qaeda, which in my mind never really existed or was certainly tenuous. Now we've got it.

And al Qaeda is going to be -- they used, the officials I talked to used words like super magnet or magnet to describe the role that Iraq now plays for al Qaeda. Iraq is going to become al Qaeda's most important battleground. And unfortunately I think we are seeing the beginning of a new phase in terrorism. These are not two incidents that are not going to be repeated. I think they're going to be repeated quite often, because you've got literally thousands of people -- I've talked to a leading Saudi dissident, Saud al-Fagi (ph), who has been a very good source on al Qaeda. He talks about 3,000 Saudis coming into Iraq in the last two months. One of his sources talks about how Iraq is like the new Pashara (ph). That's a reference to the town in Pakistan that was a center for the resistance against the Soviets in Afghanistan and drew Muslims from around the world who wanted to participate in that Jihad.

This is seen in, by the al Qaedas of the world as a justified Jihad. You've got an army occupying a Muslim country and unfortunately this is the future. You're going to see more of these attacks and I think you're going to see al Qaeda's fingerprints on them.

O'BRIEN: When we spoke to Paul Bremer earlier today, he said that he doesn't think this will overridingly change the efforts for reconstruction. It sounds like you're completely disagreeing here. Do you think eventually this is, to some degree, just a lost cause, that reconstruction will not happen until there's some massive change?

BERGEN: Well, no, because I think both of these things can be true at once. I mean, you know, the United States is going to continue with its policies. It's not going to withdraw. But I think we're going to have to recognize that there's going to be -- these kinds of attacks are going to continue. But you can continue to, although, you know, the question of reconstruction is not, is sort of outside of my purview. But all I can say is that I think these attacks are the harbinger of things to come.

O'BRIEN: Peter Bergen, thanks for joining us.

Nice to see you, as always.

BERGEN: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Survivors>