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CNN Live Sunday
After Recent Violence Can Peace Still Be Achieved In Israel?
Aired August 24, 2003 - 16:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, ANCHOR: Again, our top story is out of the middle east. In the last few hours Israeli helicopter gunships have fired missiles at a Palestinian security installation in Gaza City. Four people are dead, two of those are said to be members of Hamas's military wing. What is next? What does this do for the U.S.-backed road map to peace in the Mideast in light of these developments?
Can this peace plan even be salvaged? Dan Gillerman is the Israeli ambassador to the U.N. He joins us now from New York. Mr. Ambassador, thanks for being with us today.
DAN GILLERMAN, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Thank you for having me. Good afternoon.
SAN MIGUEL: Good afternoon. There are some who might question the timing of this, considering that Palestinian officials earlier today had ordered the Palestinian security to crack down on missiles being fired from Palestinian territories to Israel, and then there was the subject of the tunnels that were being shut down that were possibly bringing supplies in to Islamic Jihad and Hamas. What about that?
GILLERMAN: Well, I can't really comment on what happened just a few minutes ago because I have no confirmation from Israel and I cannot divulge any details. What I can tell you is that we have had talk and promises and statements from the Palestinians over the last months and weeks which have resulted in nothing.
Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas has talked the talk certainly, but he's not walked one inch of the walk. And what we have seen as a result of the impotency and the inaction of the Palestinian Authority over months and weeks is scores of Israeli dead. Only a few days ago this week, we saw children and babies blown to bits in a bus in Jerusalem as a result of that inaction.
So what Israel has been doing, and will continue to do, is to do what every freedom-loving and democratic country that wants to live and safeguard it citizens must do, and that is protect its citizens and go after and hunt the people who are threatening us and who are fighting us and killing us in such an indiscriminate way.
SAN MIGUEL: Well, the -- let's focus in on the tunnels issue. An aide to Prime Minister Sharon did say that the Palestinian moves to close those tunnels were smoke and mirrors. But, weapons and possibly explosives were coming through those tunnels from Egypt, right?
GILLERMAN: Yes. Weapons were coming in through those tunnels. But those tunnels are really such a minor detail in the whole horrible global picture of terror which is being waged against us. And the Palestinian Authority, even if they did something with the tunnels, have certainly chosen a very easy spot to do nothing. There is so many other places where they should have done things. They could arrest those people, they could collect their weapons.
And let me make one thing very, very clear. This is not a question of capability. This is a question of willingness. And the only willingness we see on the part of Palestinians at the moment is to kill Israelis, to kill indiscriminately, women and children and babies. Let me just make one point very, very clear. The suicide bomber who walked onto that bus last week in Jerusalem was a 29-year- old teacher and preacher, the father of two children.
If someone like that can walk onto a bus, look around them, see all those babies and children, and decide that he's going to blow himself up together with them just to create this havoc and destruction, then we are dealing with the most inhuman and intolerable terror this world has ever seen. And it seems to me that there won't be peace in our region until the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate us. And obviously, that time hasn't come yet.
SAN MIGUEL: The Palestinian officials have told our reporters on the ground there, our CNN reporters, that they were indeed getting ready to crack down on the militant groups, but then Israeli security forces went after Hamas leader, Abu Shanab.
GILLERMAN: Well, you know, this is so pathetic, because the Palestinians are always on the verge of doing something. They're always nearly there. They're always getting ready to do something. But Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas has been elected nearly six months ago. The cease-fire has been in effect nearly a month ago. Throughout this period, Israel has made it clear that Mahmoud Abbas must act against the terrorists and must dismantle the infrastructure of terrorism. There is no other way.
These people are animals. Animals cannot be appeased. Animals cannot be spoken to. They must be hunted and caged. Now, Mahmoud Abbas did none of these things. He has allowed them to run havoc. He has allowed them to kill Israelis. And we can't rely on statements. Mahmoud Abbas has certainly talked the talk, but he has not even walked one single inch of the walk.
And to say that they were getting ready to do it is really pathetic because they're always ready to do it, they're just not doing it. And we are paying the price, and our children, and our grandchildren are paying the price with their lives.
SAN MIGUEL: Dan Gillerman, Israeli ambassador to the United Nations. Thanks so much for your time, Mr. Ambassador. We do appreciate it.
GILLERMAN: Thank you.
SAN MIGUEL: Now we want to talk about this issue with a representative of the Palestinians. Michael Tarazi is legal adviser to the PLO, and he joins us now from Ramallah. Mr. Tarazi, I don't know if you had a chance to listen to Ambassador Gillerman, but the charge that the Palestinians were on the verge, or always seem to be on the verge of doing something about militant groups, what about that?
MICHAEL TARAZI, PLO LEGAL ADVISOR: Well, I found the ambassador's diatribe very sort of racist in element. He kept talking about Palestinians as animals, about people who need to be caged and hunted. He never once mentioned that this is in the context of an occupation and that Israel has been occupying Palestinian land now for 36 years, my entire lifetime. It has been denying fundamental basic human rights to the Palestinian population while continuing to steal their land, taking their water supplies, uprooting orchards, violating human rights.
You know, Palestinians -- listening to the ambassador, I was left with the impression that Palestinians blow themselves up because of a genetic predisposition. This is done in the political context of occupation, and Israel has to learn that you cannot deny freedom to an entire population and expect to have peace at the same time. There has never been a peaceful occupation in the history of the world.
When the Nazis occupied large parts of Europe during World War II, the people of Europe didn't greet them with flowers and roses. They fought back. And as unfortunate as it is, and as violent as it is, the Israeli people have to understand that the Palestinians want nothing more than to have the same rights that they enjoy, the same freedom they enjoy, and to live together in security. But Israel's not allowing us to do that.
SAN MIGUEL: OK. So tell us, then, what you know about the serious concrete steps that are taken by, say, for example, Yasser Arafat, who was called upon by Secretary of State Colin Powell this past week to do his part to help with the peace effort. What about dismantling the militant groups?
TARAZI: Since the road map was issued, we have been able to produce a cease-fire at the end of June, and we did that because we explained to the extremists in Palestinian society that the best way forward was to put the ball in Israel's court. And that cease-fire gave Israelis the most secure period they have had in the last three years since the uprising began. Nevertheless, Israel never signed up to that cease-fire. Israel killed 22 Palestinians.
That was never really covered in the western press the way it is when Israelis die. But nevertheless, it happened. And then Israel decided to assassinate people, knowing perfectly well that that would invite a retaliatory attack inside Israel. But that was the strategy.
Sharon is not interested in seeing this peace plan work. He was elected in a time of crisis. He's only sustainable in a time of crisis, and he has no peace plan. So he has to make sure that the crisis continues. That's why he assassinated people, and that's why he's using that as an excuse now to avoid his obligations under the road map that he never really abided by to begin with. This is working in Sharon's favor, and he would have it no other way.
SAN MIGUEL: I know that Palestinian officials have told CNN that Israel should have waited for the Palestinian Authority to start cracking down on militant groups, that that was indeed going to happen before striking at Abu Shanab of Hamas. But there had been a bomb on a bus that had killed 20 people, including six children.
TARAZI: Yes. But you have to remember that the suicide bomber actually came from a town that's under Israel's control. It wasn't under Palestinian control. Israel has only itself to blame for the security lapse there, not the Palestinians. We could not have done anything about that at all because we're not in control in those towns. That's the problem.
Israel is in control, and yet Israel blames the Palestinians. The moderate Palestinian prime minister is, in effect, caught between two terrorist groups. On one side he has the Palestinian extremists, and on the other side he has the terrorists in the Israeli government. Now, we can do whatever we can to try to restrain the Palestinian groups, but there's nobody restraining the Israeli government. And that undermines the Palestinian prime minister in any effort he'll undertake in trying to bring the situation back to calm.
SAN MIGUEL: Michael Tarazi, legal adviser to the PLO, thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate your time as well.
TARAZI: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
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Aired August 24, 2003 - 16:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, ANCHOR: Again, our top story is out of the middle east. In the last few hours Israeli helicopter gunships have fired missiles at a Palestinian security installation in Gaza City. Four people are dead, two of those are said to be members of Hamas's military wing. What is next? What does this do for the U.S.-backed road map to peace in the Mideast in light of these developments?
Can this peace plan even be salvaged? Dan Gillerman is the Israeli ambassador to the U.N. He joins us now from New York. Mr. Ambassador, thanks for being with us today.
DAN GILLERMAN, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Thank you for having me. Good afternoon.
SAN MIGUEL: Good afternoon. There are some who might question the timing of this, considering that Palestinian officials earlier today had ordered the Palestinian security to crack down on missiles being fired from Palestinian territories to Israel, and then there was the subject of the tunnels that were being shut down that were possibly bringing supplies in to Islamic Jihad and Hamas. What about that?
GILLERMAN: Well, I can't really comment on what happened just a few minutes ago because I have no confirmation from Israel and I cannot divulge any details. What I can tell you is that we have had talk and promises and statements from the Palestinians over the last months and weeks which have resulted in nothing.
Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas has talked the talk certainly, but he's not walked one inch of the walk. And what we have seen as a result of the impotency and the inaction of the Palestinian Authority over months and weeks is scores of Israeli dead. Only a few days ago this week, we saw children and babies blown to bits in a bus in Jerusalem as a result of that inaction.
So what Israel has been doing, and will continue to do, is to do what every freedom-loving and democratic country that wants to live and safeguard it citizens must do, and that is protect its citizens and go after and hunt the people who are threatening us and who are fighting us and killing us in such an indiscriminate way.
SAN MIGUEL: Well, the -- let's focus in on the tunnels issue. An aide to Prime Minister Sharon did say that the Palestinian moves to close those tunnels were smoke and mirrors. But, weapons and possibly explosives were coming through those tunnels from Egypt, right?
GILLERMAN: Yes. Weapons were coming in through those tunnels. But those tunnels are really such a minor detail in the whole horrible global picture of terror which is being waged against us. And the Palestinian Authority, even if they did something with the tunnels, have certainly chosen a very easy spot to do nothing. There is so many other places where they should have done things. They could arrest those people, they could collect their weapons.
And let me make one thing very, very clear. This is not a question of capability. This is a question of willingness. And the only willingness we see on the part of Palestinians at the moment is to kill Israelis, to kill indiscriminately, women and children and babies. Let me just make one point very, very clear. The suicide bomber who walked onto that bus last week in Jerusalem was a 29-year- old teacher and preacher, the father of two children.
If someone like that can walk onto a bus, look around them, see all those babies and children, and decide that he's going to blow himself up together with them just to create this havoc and destruction, then we are dealing with the most inhuman and intolerable terror this world has ever seen. And it seems to me that there won't be peace in our region until the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate us. And obviously, that time hasn't come yet.
SAN MIGUEL: The Palestinian officials have told our reporters on the ground there, our CNN reporters, that they were indeed getting ready to crack down on the militant groups, but then Israeli security forces went after Hamas leader, Abu Shanab.
GILLERMAN: Well, you know, this is so pathetic, because the Palestinians are always on the verge of doing something. They're always nearly there. They're always getting ready to do something. But Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas has been elected nearly six months ago. The cease-fire has been in effect nearly a month ago. Throughout this period, Israel has made it clear that Mahmoud Abbas must act against the terrorists and must dismantle the infrastructure of terrorism. There is no other way.
These people are animals. Animals cannot be appeased. Animals cannot be spoken to. They must be hunted and caged. Now, Mahmoud Abbas did none of these things. He has allowed them to run havoc. He has allowed them to kill Israelis. And we can't rely on statements. Mahmoud Abbas has certainly talked the talk, but he has not even walked one single inch of the walk.
And to say that they were getting ready to do it is really pathetic because they're always ready to do it, they're just not doing it. And we are paying the price, and our children, and our grandchildren are paying the price with their lives.
SAN MIGUEL: Dan Gillerman, Israeli ambassador to the United Nations. Thanks so much for your time, Mr. Ambassador. We do appreciate it.
GILLERMAN: Thank you.
SAN MIGUEL: Now we want to talk about this issue with a representative of the Palestinians. Michael Tarazi is legal adviser to the PLO, and he joins us now from Ramallah. Mr. Tarazi, I don't know if you had a chance to listen to Ambassador Gillerman, but the charge that the Palestinians were on the verge, or always seem to be on the verge of doing something about militant groups, what about that?
MICHAEL TARAZI, PLO LEGAL ADVISOR: Well, I found the ambassador's diatribe very sort of racist in element. He kept talking about Palestinians as animals, about people who need to be caged and hunted. He never once mentioned that this is in the context of an occupation and that Israel has been occupying Palestinian land now for 36 years, my entire lifetime. It has been denying fundamental basic human rights to the Palestinian population while continuing to steal their land, taking their water supplies, uprooting orchards, violating human rights.
You know, Palestinians -- listening to the ambassador, I was left with the impression that Palestinians blow themselves up because of a genetic predisposition. This is done in the political context of occupation, and Israel has to learn that you cannot deny freedom to an entire population and expect to have peace at the same time. There has never been a peaceful occupation in the history of the world.
When the Nazis occupied large parts of Europe during World War II, the people of Europe didn't greet them with flowers and roses. They fought back. And as unfortunate as it is, and as violent as it is, the Israeli people have to understand that the Palestinians want nothing more than to have the same rights that they enjoy, the same freedom they enjoy, and to live together in security. But Israel's not allowing us to do that.
SAN MIGUEL: OK. So tell us, then, what you know about the serious concrete steps that are taken by, say, for example, Yasser Arafat, who was called upon by Secretary of State Colin Powell this past week to do his part to help with the peace effort. What about dismantling the militant groups?
TARAZI: Since the road map was issued, we have been able to produce a cease-fire at the end of June, and we did that because we explained to the extremists in Palestinian society that the best way forward was to put the ball in Israel's court. And that cease-fire gave Israelis the most secure period they have had in the last three years since the uprising began. Nevertheless, Israel never signed up to that cease-fire. Israel killed 22 Palestinians.
That was never really covered in the western press the way it is when Israelis die. But nevertheless, it happened. And then Israel decided to assassinate people, knowing perfectly well that that would invite a retaliatory attack inside Israel. But that was the strategy.
Sharon is not interested in seeing this peace plan work. He was elected in a time of crisis. He's only sustainable in a time of crisis, and he has no peace plan. So he has to make sure that the crisis continues. That's why he assassinated people, and that's why he's using that as an excuse now to avoid his obligations under the road map that he never really abided by to begin with. This is working in Sharon's favor, and he would have it no other way.
SAN MIGUEL: I know that Palestinian officials have told CNN that Israel should have waited for the Palestinian Authority to start cracking down on militant groups, that that was indeed going to happen before striking at Abu Shanab of Hamas. But there had been a bomb on a bus that had killed 20 people, including six children.
TARAZI: Yes. But you have to remember that the suicide bomber actually came from a town that's under Israel's control. It wasn't under Palestinian control. Israel has only itself to blame for the security lapse there, not the Palestinians. We could not have done anything about that at all because we're not in control in those towns. That's the problem.
Israel is in control, and yet Israel blames the Palestinians. The moderate Palestinian prime minister is, in effect, caught between two terrorist groups. On one side he has the Palestinian extremists, and on the other side he has the terrorists in the Israeli government. Now, we can do whatever we can to try to restrain the Palestinian groups, but there's nobody restraining the Israeli government. And that undermines the Palestinian prime minister in any effort he'll undertake in trying to bring the situation back to calm.
SAN MIGUEL: Michael Tarazi, legal adviser to the PLO, thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate your time as well.
TARAZI: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
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