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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Two More U.S. Soldiers Killed in Iraq; Chicago Shooting Rampage; Should There Be A National Curriculum In Our Schools?
Aired August 27, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: It's still a war. Two more Americans today were killed in Iraq.
In Chicago, a disgruntled former employee killed six of his former co-workers.
Our special report: "Making the Grade." Two education experts tonight face off on the issue of whether there should be a uniform national curriculum.
Tonight: the closest encounter in recorded history with the red planet. We're joined by astronomer Charles Liu.
And the rising popularity of power bracelets. Kitty Pilgrim reports on claims they prevent aches and pains, heal arthritis, and keep radiation at bay.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, August 27. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
It appears that Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean tonight has taken a commanding lead in the race for his party's presidential nomination. The former Vermont governor expects to raise more than $10 million in the third quarter, which would tie a record for Democratic fund-raising set by President Clinton eight years ago. Dean also has a 21-point lead over his nearest competitor in the key primary state of New Hampshire.
The latest Zogby International poll shows Dean with 38 percent of the vote in New Hampshire and Massachusetts, U.S. Senator John Kerry with 17 percent. The Dean movement appears to be both youthful and grassroots in its energy and origin.
Maria Hinojosa has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There isn't a typical grass roots organization for the Howard Dean campaign. Instead, these are the Internet crowds that have now sprung to life. Four thousand in Falls Church, Virginia, 10,000 in Seattle, the campaign says. And about as many in New York City, including 23-year- old Alex Munoz, a first generation American-Chilean just graduated from Columbia University and, get this, not a Democrat. ALEX MUNOZ, DEAN SUPPORTER: I am a registered Republican an U.S. Army recruit. I leave for basic training in September, on September 23.
HINOJOSA (on camera): And you're supporting a liberal Democratic anti-war candidate?
MUNOZ: I would say that yes, Howard Dean falls on the liberal side of the spectrum. But Howard Dean, like a lot of individuals, deifies labels.
HINOJOSA (voice-over): Like the tie-dyed Dean-heads selling buttons, the older folks sitting on the grass, the hipsters blogging away on laptops posting real-time reports on various Web sites. And the oh-so-young, these teens aren't old enough to vote yet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has great "Deanness."
HINOJOSA (on camera): Deanness?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deanness, the aura of Dean.
HINOJOSA (voice-over): An aura that brought 21-year-old Trina Dasgupta out of her job at MTV to volunteer for the first time.
TRINA DASGUPTA, DEAN SUPPORTER: He's different. It's not the same agenda and not the same story and it's not so center that you're not hearing anything different.
HINOJOSA (voice-over): Claire Knight grew up in Vermont always feeling different. The daughter of a lesbian couple she's the first time activist.
CLAIRE KNIGHT, DEAN SUPPORTER: When you're the daughter of a lesbian or a gay person you have no control over that. Howard Dean had control, he chose to do the right thing, to take a stand for equality for all people.
HINOJOSA: His campaign says the average contributions are in the $80 range. His meet ups, rallies organized through contacts on the Internet, are nine times that of his closest competitor. That's according to MeetUp. com. His campaign claims 300,000 grass roots volunteers. And in exchange these young political neophytes get to introduce the big guy. . .
UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: Ladies and gentlemen, the next president of the United States -- Howard Dean!
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HINOJOSA: The Howard Dean Sleepless Summer Tour, which the Dean people said is symbolic of the American people being sleepless over unemployment and health care, was five days long. And they claim they raised over $1 million in that time, including $350,000 they said they raised in just one day, yesterday -- Lou.
DOBBS: About 80 bucks a throw, Maria. That's a remarkable job.
HINOJOSA: That's what they're saying they're doing.
DOBBS: There's the suggestion by the gurus and savants who cover politics that Howard Dean may be peaking too soon. What's his next step here?
HINOJOSA: His next step, Lou, is that he'll be at the Democratic National Committee debate in Albuquerque next Thursday. And every Democrat will be there, from Al Sharpton to Joe Lieberman. And over the Labor Day weekend, he goes back to the key primary state of Iowa.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: He can't be accused of not working hard for his party's nomination.
HINOJOSA: He's working very hard. He had people up from all hours, starting at 5:00 a.m. up until midnight.
DOBBS: Maria Hinojosa, thank you very much.
HINOJOSA: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Well, turning to another state in the grip of an emotional political battle, supporters of a Ten Commandments monument in Alabama today vowed to keep fighting to make it public once again.
Movers today rolled a 2.5 ton statue from a public rotunda at Alabama's state judicial building into a private room.
Brian Cabell is in Montgomery, Alabama, and has the story for us -- Brian.
BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Lou.
Well, they lost the battle here today, but the most optimistic of the protesters here say they will win the war. The monument, as you say, was in fact moved earlier this morning. And it didn't take all that long, just about an hour or so. They had a pallet jack with them and a handful of men. It took about an hour and they moved it into a back room, and that's where it will stay indefinitely.
There wasn't much that the protesters could do to stop it. There was no obstructions, really. No arrests were made. There were 22 last week, none today. But, of course, there was a lot of anger here, some of it directed at Bill Pryor, the Republican attorney general, a conservative. He was one of those who approved the removal of the monument.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL PRYOR, ALABAMA ATTORNEY GENERAL: I have long supported the notion that the Ten Commandments are an appropriate display for a courthouse, that the Ten Commandments are the cornerstone of our legal heritage. But I have an obligation as attorney general to follow court orders, even when I disagree with them. And that, to me, is not a difficult decision to make. I think it's pretty clear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABELL: But this issue will go beyond state politics. There are some here who want President Bush to take a stand on the Ten Commandments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDALL TERRY, OPERATION RESCUE: I think that the Republican machinery at the state level and at the federal level are desperate to keep themselves from getting tarred with this issue. They do not want the Ten Commandments to be a part of the '04 elections, at all costs.
CABELL: But you want them to take a stand here?
TERRY: Absolutely. I mean, how long are we going to be pushed around by federal judges?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABELL: Well, the monument has been moved, but the protesters say this will not end here. There are rallies scheduled through the end of the week.
In fact, Chief Justice Roy Moore, who started all of this two years ago, he will be here tomorrow to speak. Also, an evangelist by the name of James Dobson will also be here. And most of these people and perhaps more will be here as well, Lou. There were 500 here on the steps last night -- back to you.
DOBBS: On the issue of church and state, Brian, it is a little difficult to imagine the president, after successfully ordering U.S. troops to throw out the Taliban in Afghanistan -- that is an Islamic government -- would be interested in breaching the separation of church and state, don't you think?
CABELL: You're absolutely right.
It's generally accepted that President Bush will stay as far away from this issue as he possibly can. There's nothing to be gained here. But there are those who say he will lose his Republican base here, his right-wing Republican base, if he does not take a stand. But it's a difficult issue for him regardless.
DOBBS: It is also, I think, noteworthy to point out the number of demonstrators there in Montgomery, the capital of Alabama, on this issue. It's never risen above, Brian, if you can hear me, 600 or 700 people, has it not? And that being the...
CABELL: That's about right.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: So this is not, I think it is fair to say, something that has attracted immense attention from the community in which the controversy is going on, let alone the nation.
CABELL: No, as you say, 500, 600, 700 people at most. There are evangelists calling for more people to come to Montgomery. They are hoping to have, frankly, thousands, but so far, it has been in the hundreds.
DOBBS: Brian Cabell reporting live from Montgomery, Alabama, thank you.
Turning to another state with its share of emotional political issues, California, the gubernatorial recall. In that race, Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger has been stepping up his radio campaign. He's trying to reassure conservative Republicans that he's not too moderate.
Bob Franken is following developments in Los Angeles and has the report for us -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as you know, so many people are going to sleep these days wondering, their last thoughts, I wonder how Arnold Schwarzenegger feels about all the issues?
Schwarzenegger, for his part, has been eking out his positions a little bit. Beyond some friendly public appearances, he's been going to the usually conservative, usually friendly environs of talk radio these days, calling in and talking to hosts like Sean Hannity of ABC Radio.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE SEAN HANNITY SHOW")
SEAN HANNITY, HOST: Do you support gay marriage?
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I do support domestic partnership.
HANNITY: But not gay marriage?
SCHWARZENEGGER: No. I think that gay -- marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman.
HANNITY: Do you support the Brady Bill or the assault weapons ban, or both?
SCHWARZENEGGER: Yes, I do support that. And also, I would like to close the loophole of the gun shows.
HANNITY: OK. Do you support affirmative action?
SCHWARZENEGGER: We have not gotten into the affirmative action and also Proposition 54.
HANNITY: Would you think drug legalization is a bad idea?
SCHWARZENEGGER: It's a bad idea, yes, although I would legalize the medical... HANNITY: Marijuana?
SCHWARZENEGGER: Exactly.
HANNITY: OK. Would you allow oil companies to drill off the coast of California, if it helps...
SCHWARZENEGGER: No, absolutely not.
HANNITY: No.
SCHWARZENEGGER: I think that we should stop the oil drilling.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
FRANKEN: Now, as far as other positions are concerned, Schwarzenegger said that he generally is for abortion rights, generally for gun control, and generally favored -- this was a conservative position -- allowing prayer in schools. That's Schwarzenegger.
As far as the Democrats are concerned, right now, their battle, of course, is who's going to endorse whom. And, of course, the major development was, the labor unions, 2.1 million members in California, they're saying that they're not only going to oppose the recall, but they're going to support a Democratic alternative to Governor Gray Davis. And that is Cruz Bustamante -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bob, should we point out as well, Sean Hannity works for the Fox News Network?
FRANKEN: If you feel like it, sure.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANKEN: If you want to be totally fair and you know what.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Well, I'm not interested in being balanced particularly on a lot of issues, but I am interested in...
FRANKEN: Well, we know another Franken who got in trouble over that.
DOBBS: But I am very interested in being fair.
We thank you very much, Bob Franken, and Sean Hannity, who did a very good job of interrogating Arnold Schwarzenegger in that radio interview.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Thank you, Bob, from Los Angeles.
The White House is defending itself against criticism that it has not been forthcoming about the cost of rebuilding Iraq. That criticism comes amid reports that two more American soldiers today were killed in separate guerrilla attacks in Iraq.
Senior White House correspondent John King is near the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas, and joins us now with more on the story -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, if you're a bit confused about the price tag of the operation in Iraq and how much the administration will ask of the Congress for spending over the next several months, then you're probably just about right.
There's a great deal of confusion, in part because the administration simply will not say how much it will cost and how much it is prepared to ask the Congress to spend. The president himself said in a big speech to a veterans group yesterday that he will get whatever it takes for the troops and for the reconstruction effort, but he was not specific.
The president's top civil administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, is back in Washington this week. He is saying in today's "Washington Post," for example, that it will take tens of billions of dollars for the reconstruction effort -- nothing new there. Ambassador Bremer has said that before. What makes it significant is that he is back in Washington now trying to reach agreement with senior administration officials on how to get this money.
We are told by senior officials, there most certainly will be an emergency spending request that will go up within the next several weeks, probably $3 billion, $4 billion, maybe as high as $5 billion, and then a much bigger supplemental budget request later in the fall. That will be tens and tens of billions of dollars to pay for the military and the reconstruction effort. But the administration says it simply does not have a good estimate right now. And it will not share a guesstimate, if you will, with us.
It does not want, Lou, to get into another fight with Congress, both Democrats and Republicans already saying this administration is being far less than forthcoming when it comes to telling Congress, which has to appropriate the money, of course, and the American people how much all of this is going to cost -- Lou.
DOBBS: And it seems a remarkable device to not be forthcoming in order to avoid the charge of not being forthcoming.
KING: Well, the administration, Lou, in its defense, says there are a number of variables.
One thing is, Secretary Rumsfeld and others have said they had hoped to pay for most of the reconstruction with Iraqi oil revenues. There has been sabotage, some mechanical problems, other issues that have kept the flow of oil from getting up and running in any major, significant way. So those resources have to be looked at as down the line, not...
DOBBS: We want to apologize. We have lost the signal from our cameras near Crawford, Texas, the president's ranch there, John King. We apologize for that interruption. And we want to extend our thanks to John for his report.
Coming up next here: A shooting rampage in Chicago has left seven people dead. We'll have the live report for you.
The Veterans Administration is proposing dramatic cutbacks in hospitals. The secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs, Anthony Principi, is our guest tonight.
And our series of special reports this week on education in this country. Tonight, we look at a national curriculum. Would it help our schools make the grade? Peter Viles reports. And we will have two leading educational experts face off on the issue of who controls the curriculum in our schools.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Seven people are dead tonight in Chicago after a shooting rampage. According to police, the gunman was a former employee.
Sylvia Gomez of CNN affiliate WBBM joins us now from the crime scene in Chicago with the very latest -- Sylvia.
SYLVIA GOMEZ, WBBM REPORTER: Good afternoon, Lou.
Here in Chicago on the south side here, it was a very chaotic scene. Some people are calling it absolutely terrifying. Shortly before 8:30 this morning, Central time, 36-year-old Salvador Tapia came to this warehouse. It's called the Windy City Auto Supply. He arrived here loaded with firepower. And, apparently, he tied up his former co-workers and then he opened fire, killing six of them.
At one point, police SWAT Team members tried to negotiate with him, but, apparently, Tapia wanted no part of it. He came outside at one point. He hid behind a container. And then he opened fire, aiming his gun at police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL CLINE, ACTING CHICAGO POLICE SUPERINTENDENT: When the HBT officers entered the building, the offender refused to drop his weapon and an HBT officer shot him. At that time, the offender was handcuffed. Paramedics were already on the scene. He was taken to the hospital, where he was pronounced dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOMEZ: Salvador Tapia is 36 years old. He was fired from his job here at Windy City Auto Supply six months ago. He apparently was told he was causing trouble and showing up late for work or not at all. He had an extensive criminal record, at one point accused of aiming an automatic weapon at his family. He's been charged with domestic violence and aggravated assault. He also had three aliases. Still, with all of that, nothing about him really explains what caused him to snap today. Tonight, seven people are dead, including Tapia. One employee who had been tied up inside this morning somehow managed to escape. As he was running out of the building, he ran into another employee who happened to be late. Both of them ran to a nearby cafe to call police for help. Together, they were able to do that.
Another survivor of this company was the president, who himself was also late. Every other employee of Windy City Auto Supply was killed -- Lou.
DOBBS: Sylvia, thank you very much -- Sylvia Gomez reporting from Chicago.
Including today's tragic shootings, 23 people have been killed this year in workplace violence. Today's shooting follows a report from the Justice Department that this country's crime rate has now fallen to the lowest level in 30 years. However, the number of homicides has risen dramatically in some cities, including Chicago, which has recorded more murders in the first half of this year than the city of New York.
Still ahead: our special report on schools that are failing many American students. Tonight, a debate over a national curriculum. Would it help? Who would control our schools? Peter Viles will report on the story. And we will have two leading educational experts face off.
And, from the recall race to the race for the White House, senior political correspondent Candy Crowley and Ron Brownstein of "The Los Angeles Times" join us to assess this political period.
And a remarkable sight in the night sky, the red planet at its closest point in recorded history. Charles Liu of the American Museum of Natural History joins us.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Coming up next: It's all in the wrist for people who believe in the healing power of certain bracelets and watches. Kitty Pilgrim will have the story. Do they really work?
We'll find out. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, "Making the Grade." You wouldn't know it from presidential campaign rhetoric, but the federal government actually plays a small role in public education in this country. In fact, there's nothing even close to something called a national curriculum in our public schools.
Peter Viles reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): France does it. Japan does it. Singapore does it: national public education systems with a national curriculum. America emphatically does not.
Our public schools are locally funded, with decisions made at the state and local level. But is that really the best system? Time and again, international rankings show American kids are lagging. In one test of eighth grade math, 17 other nations placed more of their students in the top 25 percent, led by Singapore, South Korea, and Hong Kong. One factor is that American schools are less focused on mastering topics. Curriculum is broader, and it sometimes meanders.
MICHAEL COHEN, PRESIDENT, ACHIEVE INC.: In the U.S., in just about every state, students might study as many as three times the number of topics in their fifth grade math class as students in Japan or Germany would, for example. They don't learn it in nearly the same depth. And the next year, they spend a fair amount of time reviewing what they covered, what they had learned in the previous year.
VILES: It's not as if every school in America is really that different. Four large companies control 64 percent of the market for textbooks. But there are no clear national standards or tests required of all students.
CHESTER FINN, PRESIDENT, THE THOMAS B. FORDHAM FOUNDATION: I think we would be better off as a country if we had national standards, national tests, and maybe a national curriculum. But the politics of that are such that it isn't going to happen in my lifetime and probably not in my children's lifetime. There is intense resistance to that idea all over the place.
VILES: The politics are that many Americans don't trust Washington to meddle in local schools. Ronald Reagan in 1980 and Bob Dole in 1996 both campaigned to abolish the federal Department of Education.
There is a trend, however, toward states working together voluntarily to develop shared standards, which could dictate at least some of what is taught.
CHARLES GLENN, AUTHOR, "FINDING THE RIGHT BALANCE": Over time, I think we're going to evolve a kind of national curriculum which isn't a government curriculum, but a national one agreed to by the states.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Even national standards, however, face strong opposition. President Clinton suffered a big setback when he proposed limited voluntary national testing. And the new Leave No Child Behind law does not contain new national education standards -- Lou.
DOBBS: Standards and testing that are established by the states instead.
VILES: Right, established by the states, including the definition of what it is to be proficient in something.
DOBBS: In this argument, it is easy to lose sight of one of the great jewels of American society from the beginning, has been control, local control of education and the importance of public education.
VILES: And as our society changes, it is one of the few things that really is controlled locally. Look what's happened in media recently. Local control of the schools is not something Americans are going to give up very easily.
DOBBS: And one of the few places, in my humble opinion, where parents and individuals can still make a significant difference in the education their children receive.
Thank you very much, Peter Viles.
Coming up next: Two leading experts will debate the benefits and drawbacks of a national curriculum. Joyce VanTassel-Baska is a professor of education, Thomas Jandris an education policy adviser. They will face off.
Then: broken promises, massive plans to cut back hospitals at the Department of Veterans Affairs.
And we'll take a look at funding for the health care of our veterans. Secretary of Veterans Affairs Anthony Principi joins us.
And healing powers, not from pills or medical treatment, but from a little circle of metal. Kitty Pilgrim will report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we just reported, the United States is in the minority when it comes to a national curriculum. England, Australia, Japan all have standardized national curricula. Their students also routinely score higher in both mathematics and sciences than do students in this country.
And that brings to the issue in tonight's Face Off."
Joyce VanTassel-Baska says standards are necessary to ensure educational quality across the country in all school system. She is professor of education at William and Mary. And Thomas Jandris, meanwhile, says there needs to be diversity in the curriculum at our schools. He is a fellow with the Education Commission of the States.
I thank you both for being here.
Let's focus on the first issue. And that is of testing and the placement of the United States' students against those schools who have national curriculums.
And if I may, I'm going to begin with you, Joyce.
Is it a result of having a national curriculum, do you think, that those students do so well?
JOYCE VANTASSEL-BASKA, PROFESSOR OF EDUCATION, COLLEGE OF WILLIAM AND MARY: I wouldn't say that it's only a result of having a national curriculum, because many other things happen in those countries in terms of teaching and learning, from which we can learn as well.
But I do think the fact that they have a single curriculum framework, particularly in the areas of mathematics and science, does account partially for how well those countries do and how well their students do in terms of performance. Many of those students are performing at levels one to two grade levels above our students when they graduate from high school. And consistently at grades four, eight, as well as at grade 12, they're outperforming students here in the United States.
DOBBS: What do you think, Tom?
THOMAS JANDRIS, EDUCATION POLICY ADVISER: Well, I agree with Joyce that, in fact, it is complicated to try to determine whether there's cause and effect between higher performance and a national curriculum.
We can point to many other places where students are performing well and there is no national curriculum. So we need to be careful about that. The issue needs to be separated into whether or not we have national standards vs. a national curriculum. And they are two very different issues, in my opinion.
DOBBS: What do you think of the idea of national standards? Would you agree that there should be national standards, both of you?
Joyce?
VANTASSEL-BASKA: I certainly would support the idea of a national -- a set of national standards that is comparable across all 50 states and territories.
I would, however, still support differentiation of curriculum in terms of how teachers deliver those standards to different students based on their individual needs. So, having a common set of standards does not imply that one size fits all. Rather, it provides teacher flexibility in terms of being creative in the implementation of those standards.
DOBBS: Tom, would you agree?
JANDRIS: Well, to an extent.
We already have some national standards. For example, I'm a former English teacher. And the National Council of the Teachers of English has a set of standards that they recommend that are intended to be applicable across the country. So do math teachers groups and others. And so we already have at least the beginning framework of national standards.
I doubt, politically, whether or not we could ever get to the point where we could adopt a set. But the reality is that we should leave that to the experts. I agree with Joyce that the key is in our ability to effectively differentiate instruction for individual students and individual classrooms of students. And that's what will really accelerate student achievement in this country.
DOBBS: Let me ask you both, on the issue of national curriculum, as I look across the disparity of performance, for both teachers, school systems, and the students that we are putting before those teachers, we see abysmal failures. There are also some great successes. But they remain tremendous problems, ever since a nation at risk. That was 20 years ago, in which we discovered illiteracy that was rampant in this country, remedial courses required for our entering freshmen in colleges.
So many of those issues have not been addressed 20 years later by local school systems nor by the Department of Education. What is going to -- who would be in charge of this national curriculum if we were to put it into place, Joyce?
VANTASSEL-BASKA: Well, I think that certainly curriculum standards already have been developed, as Tom alluded to, in all the major subject areas, not just in English. Those national standards products were developed consentually with content experts as well as people in education at all levels of the process.
If in fact those national standards projects could be adopted by state boards of education across all 50 states, then it seems to me that that would be a very sensible way to go. Then instead of having 50 state assessments, which is currently the situation in which we're in, we could also evolve to having a single national assessment like the National Assessment of Educational Progress, which would allow us to really have a national report card as opposed to 50 individual state report cards, which is our current situation.
DOBBS: Tom?
JANDRIS: Well, the only thing I would say to that is I agree that it could be important for us to be able to nationalize on a voluntary basis some of the standards that have already been developed. There's no doubt about that. And clearly the National Assessment of Educational Progress is one good way to measure whether or not we're doing better as a consequence of that.
The reality, however, is that we need at the local level to be regularly incorporating ongoing assessment in realtime of student achievement and be able to focus on student growth as well as focusing on how far students have fallen short of a standard.
DOBBS: In terms of standards, and the president's Leave No Child (sic) behind legislation and program, accountability is introduced, the idea that teachers are responsible for the students who are entrusted to them. There has been a marked resistance to this idea in the education profession. Why is that?
VANTASSEL-BASKA: Well, I think in many respects many teachers as well as many school systems feel that they've become scapegoats in a political game of trying to improve student performance nationally and that they have had very little input in terms of how that process has gone forward and particularly input in terms of the ideas that might in fact bring about real reform.
Part of real reform, it seems to me, rests with some understanding of the need for coherence in curriculum implementation. It's not enough to merely adopt high-level standards.
DOBBS: Right.
VANTASSEL-BASKA: One also has to adopt instructional strategies that support those standards, that are research-based, and assessment approaches that are also appropriate to really get at authentic learning.
DOBBS: One of the things we were talking about here, Tom, and I want to bring you into this as well, is the reason the United States' students test more poorly than many countries, and many of them smaller and providing far smaller budgets to education than the United States, about 10 percent of the nation's teachers in mathematics and natural sciences are educated in mathematics and natural sciences. How can we possibly expect to teach what our teachers don't know?
JANDRIS: Well, that's a really good question. Like any profession, the teaching profession has members within it who clearly need to upgrade their skills, need to be engaged in very significant professional and personal development. There's no doubt about that.
But the reality, Lou, is that the instruction of a child, especially in a nation as diverse as ours, is one that is so complex that to lay the blame at the feet of any individual teacher or group of teachers or parents or attempt to provide some simplistic answer at all really would lead us down the wrong path.
DOBBS: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
JANDRIS: We've got 90 percent of the..
DOBBS: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
JANDRIS: I was just going to say, we've got 90 percent of the teachers in the country who are dedicated, knowledgeable...
DOBBS: Oh, no, no, no. No. No. Wait. Nothing I said was to suggest the teachers are not hardworking underpaid, and underresourced.
JANDRIS: OK.
DOBBS: But the issue is if they're not taught in the disciplines they teach, it is hard for me at least to imagine how well they can teach.
Joyce, you get the last word, and I hope it's a succinct word. VANTASSEL-BASKA: OK. I think that, in fact, the content preparation of teachers is a critical issue in the United States, but equally important is the preparation and pedagogy that is matched to that content. We need teachers who not only know mathematics but know how to present it effectively in the classroom with the right strategies to the right student at the right time.
DOBBS: Let's hope it's soon because we all have the same interest.
JANDRIS: Yes. Absolutely.
DOBBS: Thank you both.
VANTASSEL-BASKA: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Joyce, thank you.
JANDRIS: Thank you.
VANTASSEL-BASKA: Thank you.
DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on education and our public schools: "Was putting a man on the moon actually easier than improving education in our public schools?" That thought and quote from B.F. Skinner.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: A clash today between Oklahoma and the Justice Department in the fight against corporate crime. The state attorney general of Oklahoma today filed felony charges against MCI, formerly known as WorldCom, and six of its former executives. Former CEO Bernie Ebbers was charged with inflating the value of WorldCom stock and bonds. Oklahoma's bold move put itself at odds with the Department of Justice, which has already charged five of the same WorldCom executives, but not Ebbers. The Justice Department said it was -- quote -- "disappointed" with the charges.
And that's the topic of our poll question tonight. "Are you disappointed, like the Department of Justice, that Oklahoma's attorney general filed charges against WorldCom and six of its executives? Yes or no?" Please cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later in the show.
The final results of yesterday's poll question -- "Do you think individuals should be held accountable for the Columbia tragedy?" An exact split -- 50 percent yes, 50 percent no. That doesn't happen often on this show.
Coming up next, the search for life on Mars. As the Red Planet moves closer to Earth -- it is actually now moving away just slightly than it's been for thousands of years. I'll be joined by astrophysicist and astronomer Charles Liu next.
Stay with us for these spectacular pictures. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, skygazers around the world have been enjoying a rare close encounter with the planet Mars. Mars is now closer to Earth than it's been in the past 60,000 years. I'm going to make a little adjustment in that when I talk with Charles Liu, who's sitting here with me. Behind Mars, of course, billions of stars in our heavens.
All of that is what excites my next guest. And he has the opportunity to live that excitement every day. Charles Liu is an astrophysicist. He is at the American Museum of Natural History and is kind enough to join us on this auspicious occasion.
Good to have you here.
CHARLES LIU, ASTROPHYSICIST, AMERICAN MUSEUM OF NATL. HISTORY: Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: This is a remarkable opportunity. Of course, it's not been closer in 60,000 years, won't be for almost 300 more years.
LIU: Right.
DOBBS: But the idea of looking up and seeing Mars in the heavens with the naked eye is just incredible with its dominance.
LIU: Absolutely. It's always visible when the orbital situations warrant. But in this instance, because the two planets are tracking in such a way that they're just exactly lined up. They're closer now at 34.6 million miles than they've been in the past 60,000 years, just as you said.
DOBBS: And the nearest opposition occurred at what time today?
LIU: 5:51 a.m. Eastern Time.
DOBBS: 5:51 this morning?
LIU: This morning. But that's OK. The view of Mars will still be beautiful.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: It's moved how far in that period of time?
LIU: That's right.
DOBBS: Out of probably -- what? -- about perhaps 50, 60,000 miles?
LIU: That's right.
DOBBS: Tell us what we should be looking for, those of us who are fortunate enough to have telescopes, to have binoculars, because even with binoculars much can be seen. LIU: That's right. Mars, although it is big now compared to how it often is, it's still about the size of a dime held at a distance of 100 yards. So you'd need a telescope to see any significant detail on there.
What you'll most likely catch with a decent size backyard telescope is a small white patch near the edge, one of the edges, and that is its south polar icecap. It's a huge region hundreds of miles across of carbon dioxide frozen and possibly frozen water underneath.
DOBBS: There -- you said possibly frozen water. Of course, what is exciting many astrophysicists, astronomers, geologists, is the prospect that there is true water ice on the planet.
LIU: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Where do you stand? Do you believe it is?
LIU: It seems very likely.
In the past five year, we've gotten more and more evidence that liquid water may even exist underneath the surface of Mars. And since liquid water exists in warm areas, surely solid water, or ice, ought to exist on the surface as well. But we're still not 100 percent certain. That's why we keep sending probes and spacecraft to go find out.
DOBBS: Five of them, two from Europe two from the United States, one from Japan on their way.
LIU: That's right.
DOBBS: Do you think it will be determinant on this issue?
LIU: Well, maybe not these particular spacecraft. But there will be many spacecraft down the years.
DOBBS: You're looking at the man on mars, the famous face.
LIU: Yes indeed. If you look on enough mountaintops, sooner or later you'll find a face somewhere. I think faces have been found on spaghetti, too, right?
DOBBS: They've been found on spaghetti. They take on all sorts of varying levels of significance for all of us.
LIU: Absolutely.
DOBBS: The idea is that so many telescopes are being bought now. Space.com reported last week that telescopes are just flying out of the windows -- out of the stores around the country. Do you think that is a turning point for popular astronomy?
LIU: I hope so. Mars has more than any other object in the sky embodied our fascination with other worlds and extraterrestrial life. And so this close encounter, which has gotten so much publicity, it may really stimulate that fascination yet again, from Percival Lowell's discoveries 100 years ago, purported discoveries of canals on Mars, to "War of the Worlds" to Ray Bradbury's "Martian Chronicles" and now maybe real science and real extraterrestrial life discovered on Mars.
DOBBS: Charles Liu. We thank you very much for being with us.
LIU: Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: Thanks for putting some of the excitement in perspective. We'll keep look up.
LIU: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next -- cutting back on health care benefits. Cutting back some hospitals for this country's veterans. Drastic proposals that could leave some veterans uncared for. Secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs, Anthony Principi, joins us. Here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The recent proposal to close seven VA hospitals across the country has generated a huge outpouring of emotion and protests and rallies are taking place around the country while Congress plans to hold hearings on the matter next month. Joining me now to talk about these proposed closings, the state of the nation's VA health care system, is Anthony Principi. He is the secretary of the Department of Veteran's Affairs. Good to have you with us, Mr. Secretary.
ANTHONY PRINCIPI, SECRETARY DEPT. OF VETERAN'S AFFAIRS: Good to be with you.
DOBBS: Today motorcycles roaring through the streets of Crawford, Texas. Veterans' flags flying, protesting the proposed closure of the VA hospital in Waco, Texas. In one degree or another protests are beginning at a time when the nation's heart is really focused on those who are serving in conflict. What's going to happen?
PRINCIPI: Well, these are difficult issues. But health care has -- health care delivery in American has changed dramatically, Lou, over the past 20, 30 years. Technology, drug therapy, telemedicine. And the VA needs to be on the cutting edge of medicine in the 21st century, not the trailing edge of the century gone by.
And over the past 100, 150 years we have built up infrastructure that the general accounting office reported to Congress is we're wasting almost $400 million every year, dollars that could be used to treat more veterans, to buy more drugs. And this is an attempt to try to rationalize our infrastructure.
DOBBS: I know that you've appointed a commission to study these proposals to close these seven facilities in particular. Out of the, what is it, 161 total facilities?
PRINCIPI: Correct.
DOBBS: Facilities around the country. But in those regions you appreciate as a veteran yourself, a man concerned about not only administering Veteran's Affairs but concerned about those veterans, what this is creating. That report will not come out until the midst of an election year.
PRINCIPI: Correct.
DOBBS: This looks like dynamite politically.
PRINCIPI: Well, I hope it won't be. I believe it is good policy and good policy should drive the politics. And the commission is headed by Ed Alvarez, who spent eight years in the Hanoi Hilton, first pilot shot down over Vietnam, second to none in his commitment to veterans.
But we're opening new hospitals as well in Nevada in Las Vegas and Orlando, Florida. We're opening up new spinal cord injury units. We're opening up 48 new outpatient clinics. So it's not just about consolidating some facilities. Not really closing beds but moving the beds but also trying to build the infrastructure where the veterans are.
DOBBS: You run the largest health care operation -- system in the world.
PRINCIPI: Correct.
DOBBS: For veterans. Yet veterans are being turned away. There are still issues. I know you've been working rigorously to fix that to create priorities for those most in need and most deserving amongst those veterans. When are we going to see every veteran have access on a reasonable and timely basis?
PRINCIPI: By the end of this year. It's my goal, my vision that there are going to be no waiting lists for veterans who are enrolled in our VA health care system. No veteran should wait more than 30 days to receive primary care.
We've grown from 2.9 million veterans who came to the va in 1998. We have 7 million enrolled today, of which 5 million are users. This year we'll have 50 million outpatient visits and we'll fill probably close to 200 million prescriptions for drugs and admit 565,000 veterans into our hospital. So we are growing, and our budget, the president and the Congress over the past three years, our budget -- the president and the Congress, over the past 3 years -- our budget has grown by 32 percent.
DOBBS: We'll all be checking in with you probably before but certainly by the end of the year Mr. Secretary. As will a lot of veterans, as you well know.
PRINCIPI: Indeed.
DOBBS: Anthony Principi, secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs. Good to have you with us.
PRINCIPI: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: Thank you.
One of this country's most famous and recent veterans is Private Jessica Lynch. Private Lynch today honorably discharged from the U.S. army. She of course was badly injured during the war in Iraq, held as a prisoner of war and then dramatically rescued from an Iraqi hospital. A spokeswoman at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center said Private Lynch was medically retired because of those injuries she received.
As we've been reporting, more Americans have died in Iraq since the end of major combat operations than in the first phase of the war. That is just one of the many contentious political issues now facing the country, issues that include the California recall, to of course the Ten Commandments monument controversy.
Joining me now with their thoughts is Ron Brownstein. He is CNN political analyst, editor of the -- contributing editor of the "L.A. Times." And CNN political correspondent Candy Crowley joining us from our Washington, D.C. bureau. Good to have you with us.
Let me ask you both, and Ron, because you are so proximate to one of the most fascinating stories, and that's the California recall, we're seeing some slippage. Is this recall really going to result in the ejection of Gray Davis from Sacramento as governor?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Lou, Gray Davis has made it a lot closer in polls in the last few days, particularly our own "L.A. Times" poll by rallying Democrats with a very partisan argument, arguing that -- trying to portray the recall as part of a pattern of Republican misbehavior, what he calls Republican misbehavior, starting with impeachment, the 2000 election and battles over redistricting in other states.
But while that can bring him within range, it's still a challenge for him to get over the top. I mean, he has a terrible approval rating. You have enormous dissatisfaction with the direction of the state and the quality of the state economy. And while he can get close, each point from this point out gets harder.
DOBBS: I didn't hear you declare the recall one way or the other.
BROWNSTEIN: No. I think -- look, my bet is it's close either way. Davis could narrowly win or narrowly lose.
DOBBS: All right. Candy, you follow, as does Ron, the broad breadth of these issues. If I may, let me ask you what you make of Howard Dean's remarkable surge here to raise $10 million in the third quarter tying former president Clinton's record eight years ago, a 21- point lead in the New Hampshire polling right now. What do you make of this? CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I make it first of all that it makes a much more exciting race I think than it would have been without Howard Dean. That second of all, the Internet has proven to be, not only a way to raise substantial money, but a way to bring crowds together. And that this is a man who is selling himself as sort of a new kind of candidate and he's using a new sort of medium, which everybody is trying very hard to catch up on. He has done a remarkable job. It's been a very smart campaign.
DOBBS: And what are the political implications, if any, that both of you see as a result of the Ten Commandments monument controversy in Montgomery, Alabama? Is there a national implication here? Is there more going on than meets at least my eye? Ron?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I'm not sure there's a national implication directly from this, Lou, but what we've seen over the last few election cycles is that cultural issues have become a more valuable predictor of how people vote than economic interests. I mean, we really are seeing the electorate divided more along lines of values than of interests.
If you look at 2000, clearly the best predictor of how someone was going to vote was how often they went to church between George Bush and Al Gore. And I suspect we will continue to see a lot of that in 2004. These really are the issues that are dividing the American public and really predicting which side they line up with in these national and even to some extent state campaigns.
DOBBS: Candy, the same question, but I want to just add one thing. It strikes me, and I mentioned this to Brian Cabell at the outset of the show, very few protesters showed up in Montgomery, a large city, the capital in Alabama, demonstrating one way or the other on this issue. What do you make of that in the context of this -- the cultural values issue that Ron just mentioned?
CROWLEY: You know, here's what I think, I think that even both sides of any kind of cultural issue understand the power of the media. They certainly got media attention far beyond their numbers, and that's really what this is about in many ways.
It is the true believers, and I don't mean that as a slam, on both sides of this issue that tend to come out. I think we see that in sort of a lot of these cultural issues that come out. I think you saw, and I agree with Ron, pretty much an Alabama issue at this point.
DOBBS: One thing we know for certain is that the president's policies in Iraq are certainly a national issue. We have seen the president's popularity in the most recent polls decline. Still above 50 percent, but perilously close to 50 percent. How significant is that in your judgment? Candy, you first, please.
CROWLEY: You know, we're a year away anything can happen. We have the Gallup Poll that came out today, Lou, that shows him at 59 percent. If we hadn't seen him at 60 and 70 and 80, it would look pretty good. But inside it shows there are some problems for him. He looks a lot more vulnerable than he used to. DOBBS: Ron?
BROWNSTEIN: One fascinating corallary, Lou, the decline in support for the way things are going in Iraq is part of the reason why Howard Dean is generating those crowds. He is getting a second wave of momentum by the antipathy of Democrats toward the policy in Iraq and him being identified as the clearest opponent of that.
DOBBS: Ron Brownstein, Candy Crowley thank you both so much. We appreciate it.
When we continue -- we'll have the results of tonight's poll and New York Stock Exchange chairman Richard Grasso's multimillion-dollar payday. Even in this age of corporate reform and executive compensation constraint, not excess.
Christine Romans will have that story and the markets next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Not much movement in the markets today. Some movement on our poll question. Are you disappointed, like the department of justice, that Oklahoma's attorney general filed charges against Worldcom and six of its executives? 4 percent of you said you were disappointed. 96 percent don't seem emotionally distraught.
The board of the New York Stock Exchange today said it paid chairman and CEO Richard Grasso nearly $140 million in various benefits and incentives in pay. The staggering sum of money a shock even for some Wall Street insiders. Christine Romans with the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: The NYSE board assured chairman Richard Grasso a $1.4 million salary and a guaranteed bonus of another million a year. And he's cashing out the compensation he's already earned. The exchange is paying Grasso $40 million in savings, almost $48 million in prior incentives, and a retirement boon of more than $51 million. A total payout of $139 1/2 million. A hefty check. Compare that payout with the performance of the exchange he runs. The NYSE earned $27 million in the first half of this year, a period when the number of companies newly listing their stock there fell by half. His supporters say he deserves every penny. Corporate governance experts disagree.
NELL MINOW, THE CORPORATE LIBRARY: It's astonishing in this day and age that any enterprise, especially the New York Stock Exchange, can think that that's acceptable. I think he's really more of a bureaucrat than the CEO of a public company, and I think he should be paid like a bureaucrat.
ROMANS: Executive pay has long been secret at the NYSE. Even long-time members of the exchange have said they were surprised by tales of Grasso's hefty pay. And some members privately complained of a runaway board and a runaway chairman. (END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Criticism as well from the former chairman of the New York Stock Exchange, William Donaldson. He's now the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission. A source at the SEC tells us Donaldson is displeased, especially since he's been lobbying against excessive executive compensation. The SEC says it is looking into this matter, Lou.
DOBBS: A pretty good day for a fellow who runs a quasi- governmental not for profit organization. Christine, thanks. Christine Romans.
Finally tonight, good health does not always come in pill form. As Kitty Pilgrim reports, sometimes it can actually be worn on your wrist.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Electronic pollution. It's all around us. Cell phones, radio waves, computer vibes. Except if you're wearing this, a Philip Stein watch with a special teslar chip developed by a doctor is said to dispel electrico magnetic fields. At Bloomingdale's the simple ones $595. With diamonds, just under two grand.
FRANCINE KLEIN, V.P. BLOOMINGDALES: People who bought it and are wearing it do feel much better. We had some of our buyers wear it and feel much better about it. So we do believe that it works.
PILGRIM: The concept of wearing something on your wrist to feel better isn't new. Copper or ionized bracelets have been popular for years.
(on camera): Everyone knows that golfers tend to be a bit obsessional. Well, they claim that these bracelets help their game.
(voice-ver): They're stocked in popular golf shops. But salespeople don't make any promises.
JAY OH, NEW YORK GOLF CENTER: Quite honestly, I'm not 100 percent sure what they are. We do know that a lot of people ask for them.
PILGRIM: The popular theory goes the copper is absorbed through your skin and lessens the inflammation in your joints, so movement is freer, even if the copper can turn your wrist green.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought that I had arthritis, and I went to a doctor. And I had bought this. And he said to me, does it help? And I said I don't know. And one month later all the stiffness from my hands left and so I won't take it off.
PILGRIM: There are no studies that will support any of these claims, but medical experts say, it can't hurt. And a good day on the golf course does have some therapeutic value. Kitty Pilgrim, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "LIVE FROM THE HEADLINES" with Anderson Cooper is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Rampage; Should There Be A National Curriculum In Our Schools?>
Aired August 27, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: It's still a war. Two more Americans today were killed in Iraq.
In Chicago, a disgruntled former employee killed six of his former co-workers.
Our special report: "Making the Grade." Two education experts tonight face off on the issue of whether there should be a uniform national curriculum.
Tonight: the closest encounter in recorded history with the red planet. We're joined by astronomer Charles Liu.
And the rising popularity of power bracelets. Kitty Pilgrim reports on claims they prevent aches and pains, heal arthritis, and keep radiation at bay.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, August 27. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
It appears that Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean tonight has taken a commanding lead in the race for his party's presidential nomination. The former Vermont governor expects to raise more than $10 million in the third quarter, which would tie a record for Democratic fund-raising set by President Clinton eight years ago. Dean also has a 21-point lead over his nearest competitor in the key primary state of New Hampshire.
The latest Zogby International poll shows Dean with 38 percent of the vote in New Hampshire and Massachusetts, U.S. Senator John Kerry with 17 percent. The Dean movement appears to be both youthful and grassroots in its energy and origin.
Maria Hinojosa has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There isn't a typical grass roots organization for the Howard Dean campaign. Instead, these are the Internet crowds that have now sprung to life. Four thousand in Falls Church, Virginia, 10,000 in Seattle, the campaign says. And about as many in New York City, including 23-year- old Alex Munoz, a first generation American-Chilean just graduated from Columbia University and, get this, not a Democrat. ALEX MUNOZ, DEAN SUPPORTER: I am a registered Republican an U.S. Army recruit. I leave for basic training in September, on September 23.
HINOJOSA (on camera): And you're supporting a liberal Democratic anti-war candidate?
MUNOZ: I would say that yes, Howard Dean falls on the liberal side of the spectrum. But Howard Dean, like a lot of individuals, deifies labels.
HINOJOSA (voice-over): Like the tie-dyed Dean-heads selling buttons, the older folks sitting on the grass, the hipsters blogging away on laptops posting real-time reports on various Web sites. And the oh-so-young, these teens aren't old enough to vote yet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has great "Deanness."
HINOJOSA (on camera): Deanness?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deanness, the aura of Dean.
HINOJOSA (voice-over): An aura that brought 21-year-old Trina Dasgupta out of her job at MTV to volunteer for the first time.
TRINA DASGUPTA, DEAN SUPPORTER: He's different. It's not the same agenda and not the same story and it's not so center that you're not hearing anything different.
HINOJOSA (voice-over): Claire Knight grew up in Vermont always feeling different. The daughter of a lesbian couple she's the first time activist.
CLAIRE KNIGHT, DEAN SUPPORTER: When you're the daughter of a lesbian or a gay person you have no control over that. Howard Dean had control, he chose to do the right thing, to take a stand for equality for all people.
HINOJOSA: His campaign says the average contributions are in the $80 range. His meet ups, rallies organized through contacts on the Internet, are nine times that of his closest competitor. That's according to MeetUp. com. His campaign claims 300,000 grass roots volunteers. And in exchange these young political neophytes get to introduce the big guy. . .
UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: Ladies and gentlemen, the next president of the United States -- Howard Dean!
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HINOJOSA: The Howard Dean Sleepless Summer Tour, which the Dean people said is symbolic of the American people being sleepless over unemployment and health care, was five days long. And they claim they raised over $1 million in that time, including $350,000 they said they raised in just one day, yesterday -- Lou.
DOBBS: About 80 bucks a throw, Maria. That's a remarkable job.
HINOJOSA: That's what they're saying they're doing.
DOBBS: There's the suggestion by the gurus and savants who cover politics that Howard Dean may be peaking too soon. What's his next step here?
HINOJOSA: His next step, Lou, is that he'll be at the Democratic National Committee debate in Albuquerque next Thursday. And every Democrat will be there, from Al Sharpton to Joe Lieberman. And over the Labor Day weekend, he goes back to the key primary state of Iowa.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: He can't be accused of not working hard for his party's nomination.
HINOJOSA: He's working very hard. He had people up from all hours, starting at 5:00 a.m. up until midnight.
DOBBS: Maria Hinojosa, thank you very much.
HINOJOSA: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Well, turning to another state in the grip of an emotional political battle, supporters of a Ten Commandments monument in Alabama today vowed to keep fighting to make it public once again.
Movers today rolled a 2.5 ton statue from a public rotunda at Alabama's state judicial building into a private room.
Brian Cabell is in Montgomery, Alabama, and has the story for us -- Brian.
BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Lou.
Well, they lost the battle here today, but the most optimistic of the protesters here say they will win the war. The monument, as you say, was in fact moved earlier this morning. And it didn't take all that long, just about an hour or so. They had a pallet jack with them and a handful of men. It took about an hour and they moved it into a back room, and that's where it will stay indefinitely.
There wasn't much that the protesters could do to stop it. There was no obstructions, really. No arrests were made. There were 22 last week, none today. But, of course, there was a lot of anger here, some of it directed at Bill Pryor, the Republican attorney general, a conservative. He was one of those who approved the removal of the monument.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL PRYOR, ALABAMA ATTORNEY GENERAL: I have long supported the notion that the Ten Commandments are an appropriate display for a courthouse, that the Ten Commandments are the cornerstone of our legal heritage. But I have an obligation as attorney general to follow court orders, even when I disagree with them. And that, to me, is not a difficult decision to make. I think it's pretty clear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABELL: But this issue will go beyond state politics. There are some here who want President Bush to take a stand on the Ten Commandments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDALL TERRY, OPERATION RESCUE: I think that the Republican machinery at the state level and at the federal level are desperate to keep themselves from getting tarred with this issue. They do not want the Ten Commandments to be a part of the '04 elections, at all costs.
CABELL: But you want them to take a stand here?
TERRY: Absolutely. I mean, how long are we going to be pushed around by federal judges?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABELL: Well, the monument has been moved, but the protesters say this will not end here. There are rallies scheduled through the end of the week.
In fact, Chief Justice Roy Moore, who started all of this two years ago, he will be here tomorrow to speak. Also, an evangelist by the name of James Dobson will also be here. And most of these people and perhaps more will be here as well, Lou. There were 500 here on the steps last night -- back to you.
DOBBS: On the issue of church and state, Brian, it is a little difficult to imagine the president, after successfully ordering U.S. troops to throw out the Taliban in Afghanistan -- that is an Islamic government -- would be interested in breaching the separation of church and state, don't you think?
CABELL: You're absolutely right.
It's generally accepted that President Bush will stay as far away from this issue as he possibly can. There's nothing to be gained here. But there are those who say he will lose his Republican base here, his right-wing Republican base, if he does not take a stand. But it's a difficult issue for him regardless.
DOBBS: It is also, I think, noteworthy to point out the number of demonstrators there in Montgomery, the capital of Alabama, on this issue. It's never risen above, Brian, if you can hear me, 600 or 700 people, has it not? And that being the...
CABELL: That's about right.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: So this is not, I think it is fair to say, something that has attracted immense attention from the community in which the controversy is going on, let alone the nation.
CABELL: No, as you say, 500, 600, 700 people at most. There are evangelists calling for more people to come to Montgomery. They are hoping to have, frankly, thousands, but so far, it has been in the hundreds.
DOBBS: Brian Cabell reporting live from Montgomery, Alabama, thank you.
Turning to another state with its share of emotional political issues, California, the gubernatorial recall. In that race, Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger has been stepping up his radio campaign. He's trying to reassure conservative Republicans that he's not too moderate.
Bob Franken is following developments in Los Angeles and has the report for us -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as you know, so many people are going to sleep these days wondering, their last thoughts, I wonder how Arnold Schwarzenegger feels about all the issues?
Schwarzenegger, for his part, has been eking out his positions a little bit. Beyond some friendly public appearances, he's been going to the usually conservative, usually friendly environs of talk radio these days, calling in and talking to hosts like Sean Hannity of ABC Radio.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE SEAN HANNITY SHOW")
SEAN HANNITY, HOST: Do you support gay marriage?
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I do support domestic partnership.
HANNITY: But not gay marriage?
SCHWARZENEGGER: No. I think that gay -- marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman.
HANNITY: Do you support the Brady Bill or the assault weapons ban, or both?
SCHWARZENEGGER: Yes, I do support that. And also, I would like to close the loophole of the gun shows.
HANNITY: OK. Do you support affirmative action?
SCHWARZENEGGER: We have not gotten into the affirmative action and also Proposition 54.
HANNITY: Would you think drug legalization is a bad idea?
SCHWARZENEGGER: It's a bad idea, yes, although I would legalize the medical... HANNITY: Marijuana?
SCHWARZENEGGER: Exactly.
HANNITY: OK. Would you allow oil companies to drill off the coast of California, if it helps...
SCHWARZENEGGER: No, absolutely not.
HANNITY: No.
SCHWARZENEGGER: I think that we should stop the oil drilling.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
FRANKEN: Now, as far as other positions are concerned, Schwarzenegger said that he generally is for abortion rights, generally for gun control, and generally favored -- this was a conservative position -- allowing prayer in schools. That's Schwarzenegger.
As far as the Democrats are concerned, right now, their battle, of course, is who's going to endorse whom. And, of course, the major development was, the labor unions, 2.1 million members in California, they're saying that they're not only going to oppose the recall, but they're going to support a Democratic alternative to Governor Gray Davis. And that is Cruz Bustamante -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bob, should we point out as well, Sean Hannity works for the Fox News Network?
FRANKEN: If you feel like it, sure.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANKEN: If you want to be totally fair and you know what.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Well, I'm not interested in being balanced particularly on a lot of issues, but I am interested in...
FRANKEN: Well, we know another Franken who got in trouble over that.
DOBBS: But I am very interested in being fair.
We thank you very much, Bob Franken, and Sean Hannity, who did a very good job of interrogating Arnold Schwarzenegger in that radio interview.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Thank you, Bob, from Los Angeles.
The White House is defending itself against criticism that it has not been forthcoming about the cost of rebuilding Iraq. That criticism comes amid reports that two more American soldiers today were killed in separate guerrilla attacks in Iraq.
Senior White House correspondent John King is near the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas, and joins us now with more on the story -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, if you're a bit confused about the price tag of the operation in Iraq and how much the administration will ask of the Congress for spending over the next several months, then you're probably just about right.
There's a great deal of confusion, in part because the administration simply will not say how much it will cost and how much it is prepared to ask the Congress to spend. The president himself said in a big speech to a veterans group yesterday that he will get whatever it takes for the troops and for the reconstruction effort, but he was not specific.
The president's top civil administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, is back in Washington this week. He is saying in today's "Washington Post," for example, that it will take tens of billions of dollars for the reconstruction effort -- nothing new there. Ambassador Bremer has said that before. What makes it significant is that he is back in Washington now trying to reach agreement with senior administration officials on how to get this money.
We are told by senior officials, there most certainly will be an emergency spending request that will go up within the next several weeks, probably $3 billion, $4 billion, maybe as high as $5 billion, and then a much bigger supplemental budget request later in the fall. That will be tens and tens of billions of dollars to pay for the military and the reconstruction effort. But the administration says it simply does not have a good estimate right now. And it will not share a guesstimate, if you will, with us.
It does not want, Lou, to get into another fight with Congress, both Democrats and Republicans already saying this administration is being far less than forthcoming when it comes to telling Congress, which has to appropriate the money, of course, and the American people how much all of this is going to cost -- Lou.
DOBBS: And it seems a remarkable device to not be forthcoming in order to avoid the charge of not being forthcoming.
KING: Well, the administration, Lou, in its defense, says there are a number of variables.
One thing is, Secretary Rumsfeld and others have said they had hoped to pay for most of the reconstruction with Iraqi oil revenues. There has been sabotage, some mechanical problems, other issues that have kept the flow of oil from getting up and running in any major, significant way. So those resources have to be looked at as down the line, not...
DOBBS: We want to apologize. We have lost the signal from our cameras near Crawford, Texas, the president's ranch there, John King. We apologize for that interruption. And we want to extend our thanks to John for his report.
Coming up next here: A shooting rampage in Chicago has left seven people dead. We'll have the live report for you.
The Veterans Administration is proposing dramatic cutbacks in hospitals. The secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs, Anthony Principi, is our guest tonight.
And our series of special reports this week on education in this country. Tonight, we look at a national curriculum. Would it help our schools make the grade? Peter Viles reports. And we will have two leading educational experts face off on the issue of who controls the curriculum in our schools.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Seven people are dead tonight in Chicago after a shooting rampage. According to police, the gunman was a former employee.
Sylvia Gomez of CNN affiliate WBBM joins us now from the crime scene in Chicago with the very latest -- Sylvia.
SYLVIA GOMEZ, WBBM REPORTER: Good afternoon, Lou.
Here in Chicago on the south side here, it was a very chaotic scene. Some people are calling it absolutely terrifying. Shortly before 8:30 this morning, Central time, 36-year-old Salvador Tapia came to this warehouse. It's called the Windy City Auto Supply. He arrived here loaded with firepower. And, apparently, he tied up his former co-workers and then he opened fire, killing six of them.
At one point, police SWAT Team members tried to negotiate with him, but, apparently, Tapia wanted no part of it. He came outside at one point. He hid behind a container. And then he opened fire, aiming his gun at police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL CLINE, ACTING CHICAGO POLICE SUPERINTENDENT: When the HBT officers entered the building, the offender refused to drop his weapon and an HBT officer shot him. At that time, the offender was handcuffed. Paramedics were already on the scene. He was taken to the hospital, where he was pronounced dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOMEZ: Salvador Tapia is 36 years old. He was fired from his job here at Windy City Auto Supply six months ago. He apparently was told he was causing trouble and showing up late for work or not at all. He had an extensive criminal record, at one point accused of aiming an automatic weapon at his family. He's been charged with domestic violence and aggravated assault. He also had three aliases. Still, with all of that, nothing about him really explains what caused him to snap today. Tonight, seven people are dead, including Tapia. One employee who had been tied up inside this morning somehow managed to escape. As he was running out of the building, he ran into another employee who happened to be late. Both of them ran to a nearby cafe to call police for help. Together, they were able to do that.
Another survivor of this company was the president, who himself was also late. Every other employee of Windy City Auto Supply was killed -- Lou.
DOBBS: Sylvia, thank you very much -- Sylvia Gomez reporting from Chicago.
Including today's tragic shootings, 23 people have been killed this year in workplace violence. Today's shooting follows a report from the Justice Department that this country's crime rate has now fallen to the lowest level in 30 years. However, the number of homicides has risen dramatically in some cities, including Chicago, which has recorded more murders in the first half of this year than the city of New York.
Still ahead: our special report on schools that are failing many American students. Tonight, a debate over a national curriculum. Would it help? Who would control our schools? Peter Viles will report on the story. And we will have two leading educational experts face off.
And, from the recall race to the race for the White House, senior political correspondent Candy Crowley and Ron Brownstein of "The Los Angeles Times" join us to assess this political period.
And a remarkable sight in the night sky, the red planet at its closest point in recorded history. Charles Liu of the American Museum of Natural History joins us.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Coming up next: It's all in the wrist for people who believe in the healing power of certain bracelets and watches. Kitty Pilgrim will have the story. Do they really work?
We'll find out. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, "Making the Grade." You wouldn't know it from presidential campaign rhetoric, but the federal government actually plays a small role in public education in this country. In fact, there's nothing even close to something called a national curriculum in our public schools.
Peter Viles reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): France does it. Japan does it. Singapore does it: national public education systems with a national curriculum. America emphatically does not.
Our public schools are locally funded, with decisions made at the state and local level. But is that really the best system? Time and again, international rankings show American kids are lagging. In one test of eighth grade math, 17 other nations placed more of their students in the top 25 percent, led by Singapore, South Korea, and Hong Kong. One factor is that American schools are less focused on mastering topics. Curriculum is broader, and it sometimes meanders.
MICHAEL COHEN, PRESIDENT, ACHIEVE INC.: In the U.S., in just about every state, students might study as many as three times the number of topics in their fifth grade math class as students in Japan or Germany would, for example. They don't learn it in nearly the same depth. And the next year, they spend a fair amount of time reviewing what they covered, what they had learned in the previous year.
VILES: It's not as if every school in America is really that different. Four large companies control 64 percent of the market for textbooks. But there are no clear national standards or tests required of all students.
CHESTER FINN, PRESIDENT, THE THOMAS B. FORDHAM FOUNDATION: I think we would be better off as a country if we had national standards, national tests, and maybe a national curriculum. But the politics of that are such that it isn't going to happen in my lifetime and probably not in my children's lifetime. There is intense resistance to that idea all over the place.
VILES: The politics are that many Americans don't trust Washington to meddle in local schools. Ronald Reagan in 1980 and Bob Dole in 1996 both campaigned to abolish the federal Department of Education.
There is a trend, however, toward states working together voluntarily to develop shared standards, which could dictate at least some of what is taught.
CHARLES GLENN, AUTHOR, "FINDING THE RIGHT BALANCE": Over time, I think we're going to evolve a kind of national curriculum which isn't a government curriculum, but a national one agreed to by the states.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Even national standards, however, face strong opposition. President Clinton suffered a big setback when he proposed limited voluntary national testing. And the new Leave No Child Behind law does not contain new national education standards -- Lou.
DOBBS: Standards and testing that are established by the states instead.
VILES: Right, established by the states, including the definition of what it is to be proficient in something.
DOBBS: In this argument, it is easy to lose sight of one of the great jewels of American society from the beginning, has been control, local control of education and the importance of public education.
VILES: And as our society changes, it is one of the few things that really is controlled locally. Look what's happened in media recently. Local control of the schools is not something Americans are going to give up very easily.
DOBBS: And one of the few places, in my humble opinion, where parents and individuals can still make a significant difference in the education their children receive.
Thank you very much, Peter Viles.
Coming up next: Two leading experts will debate the benefits and drawbacks of a national curriculum. Joyce VanTassel-Baska is a professor of education, Thomas Jandris an education policy adviser. They will face off.
Then: broken promises, massive plans to cut back hospitals at the Department of Veterans Affairs.
And we'll take a look at funding for the health care of our veterans. Secretary of Veterans Affairs Anthony Principi joins us.
And healing powers, not from pills or medical treatment, but from a little circle of metal. Kitty Pilgrim will report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we just reported, the United States is in the minority when it comes to a national curriculum. England, Australia, Japan all have standardized national curricula. Their students also routinely score higher in both mathematics and sciences than do students in this country.
And that brings to the issue in tonight's Face Off."
Joyce VanTassel-Baska says standards are necessary to ensure educational quality across the country in all school system. She is professor of education at William and Mary. And Thomas Jandris, meanwhile, says there needs to be diversity in the curriculum at our schools. He is a fellow with the Education Commission of the States.
I thank you both for being here.
Let's focus on the first issue. And that is of testing and the placement of the United States' students against those schools who have national curriculums.
And if I may, I'm going to begin with you, Joyce.
Is it a result of having a national curriculum, do you think, that those students do so well?
JOYCE VANTASSEL-BASKA, PROFESSOR OF EDUCATION, COLLEGE OF WILLIAM AND MARY: I wouldn't say that it's only a result of having a national curriculum, because many other things happen in those countries in terms of teaching and learning, from which we can learn as well.
But I do think the fact that they have a single curriculum framework, particularly in the areas of mathematics and science, does account partially for how well those countries do and how well their students do in terms of performance. Many of those students are performing at levels one to two grade levels above our students when they graduate from high school. And consistently at grades four, eight, as well as at grade 12, they're outperforming students here in the United States.
DOBBS: What do you think, Tom?
THOMAS JANDRIS, EDUCATION POLICY ADVISER: Well, I agree with Joyce that, in fact, it is complicated to try to determine whether there's cause and effect between higher performance and a national curriculum.
We can point to many other places where students are performing well and there is no national curriculum. So we need to be careful about that. The issue needs to be separated into whether or not we have national standards vs. a national curriculum. And they are two very different issues, in my opinion.
DOBBS: What do you think of the idea of national standards? Would you agree that there should be national standards, both of you?
Joyce?
VANTASSEL-BASKA: I certainly would support the idea of a national -- a set of national standards that is comparable across all 50 states and territories.
I would, however, still support differentiation of curriculum in terms of how teachers deliver those standards to different students based on their individual needs. So, having a common set of standards does not imply that one size fits all. Rather, it provides teacher flexibility in terms of being creative in the implementation of those standards.
DOBBS: Tom, would you agree?
JANDRIS: Well, to an extent.
We already have some national standards. For example, I'm a former English teacher. And the National Council of the Teachers of English has a set of standards that they recommend that are intended to be applicable across the country. So do math teachers groups and others. And so we already have at least the beginning framework of national standards.
I doubt, politically, whether or not we could ever get to the point where we could adopt a set. But the reality is that we should leave that to the experts. I agree with Joyce that the key is in our ability to effectively differentiate instruction for individual students and individual classrooms of students. And that's what will really accelerate student achievement in this country.
DOBBS: Let me ask you both, on the issue of national curriculum, as I look across the disparity of performance, for both teachers, school systems, and the students that we are putting before those teachers, we see abysmal failures. There are also some great successes. But they remain tremendous problems, ever since a nation at risk. That was 20 years ago, in which we discovered illiteracy that was rampant in this country, remedial courses required for our entering freshmen in colleges.
So many of those issues have not been addressed 20 years later by local school systems nor by the Department of Education. What is going to -- who would be in charge of this national curriculum if we were to put it into place, Joyce?
VANTASSEL-BASKA: Well, I think that certainly curriculum standards already have been developed, as Tom alluded to, in all the major subject areas, not just in English. Those national standards products were developed consentually with content experts as well as people in education at all levels of the process.
If in fact those national standards projects could be adopted by state boards of education across all 50 states, then it seems to me that that would be a very sensible way to go. Then instead of having 50 state assessments, which is currently the situation in which we're in, we could also evolve to having a single national assessment like the National Assessment of Educational Progress, which would allow us to really have a national report card as opposed to 50 individual state report cards, which is our current situation.
DOBBS: Tom?
JANDRIS: Well, the only thing I would say to that is I agree that it could be important for us to be able to nationalize on a voluntary basis some of the standards that have already been developed. There's no doubt about that. And clearly the National Assessment of Educational Progress is one good way to measure whether or not we're doing better as a consequence of that.
The reality, however, is that we need at the local level to be regularly incorporating ongoing assessment in realtime of student achievement and be able to focus on student growth as well as focusing on how far students have fallen short of a standard.
DOBBS: In terms of standards, and the president's Leave No Child (sic) behind legislation and program, accountability is introduced, the idea that teachers are responsible for the students who are entrusted to them. There has been a marked resistance to this idea in the education profession. Why is that?
VANTASSEL-BASKA: Well, I think in many respects many teachers as well as many school systems feel that they've become scapegoats in a political game of trying to improve student performance nationally and that they have had very little input in terms of how that process has gone forward and particularly input in terms of the ideas that might in fact bring about real reform.
Part of real reform, it seems to me, rests with some understanding of the need for coherence in curriculum implementation. It's not enough to merely adopt high-level standards.
DOBBS: Right.
VANTASSEL-BASKA: One also has to adopt instructional strategies that support those standards, that are research-based, and assessment approaches that are also appropriate to really get at authentic learning.
DOBBS: One of the things we were talking about here, Tom, and I want to bring you into this as well, is the reason the United States' students test more poorly than many countries, and many of them smaller and providing far smaller budgets to education than the United States, about 10 percent of the nation's teachers in mathematics and natural sciences are educated in mathematics and natural sciences. How can we possibly expect to teach what our teachers don't know?
JANDRIS: Well, that's a really good question. Like any profession, the teaching profession has members within it who clearly need to upgrade their skills, need to be engaged in very significant professional and personal development. There's no doubt about that.
But the reality, Lou, is that the instruction of a child, especially in a nation as diverse as ours, is one that is so complex that to lay the blame at the feet of any individual teacher or group of teachers or parents or attempt to provide some simplistic answer at all really would lead us down the wrong path.
DOBBS: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
JANDRIS: We've got 90 percent of the..
DOBBS: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
JANDRIS: I was just going to say, we've got 90 percent of the teachers in the country who are dedicated, knowledgeable...
DOBBS: Oh, no, no, no. No. No. Wait. Nothing I said was to suggest the teachers are not hardworking underpaid, and underresourced.
JANDRIS: OK.
DOBBS: But the issue is if they're not taught in the disciplines they teach, it is hard for me at least to imagine how well they can teach.
Joyce, you get the last word, and I hope it's a succinct word. VANTASSEL-BASKA: OK. I think that, in fact, the content preparation of teachers is a critical issue in the United States, but equally important is the preparation and pedagogy that is matched to that content. We need teachers who not only know mathematics but know how to present it effectively in the classroom with the right strategies to the right student at the right time.
DOBBS: Let's hope it's soon because we all have the same interest.
JANDRIS: Yes. Absolutely.
DOBBS: Thank you both.
VANTASSEL-BASKA: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Joyce, thank you.
JANDRIS: Thank you.
VANTASSEL-BASKA: Thank you.
DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on education and our public schools: "Was putting a man on the moon actually easier than improving education in our public schools?" That thought and quote from B.F. Skinner.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: A clash today between Oklahoma and the Justice Department in the fight against corporate crime. The state attorney general of Oklahoma today filed felony charges against MCI, formerly known as WorldCom, and six of its former executives. Former CEO Bernie Ebbers was charged with inflating the value of WorldCom stock and bonds. Oklahoma's bold move put itself at odds with the Department of Justice, which has already charged five of the same WorldCom executives, but not Ebbers. The Justice Department said it was -- quote -- "disappointed" with the charges.
And that's the topic of our poll question tonight. "Are you disappointed, like the Department of Justice, that Oklahoma's attorney general filed charges against WorldCom and six of its executives? Yes or no?" Please cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later in the show.
The final results of yesterday's poll question -- "Do you think individuals should be held accountable for the Columbia tragedy?" An exact split -- 50 percent yes, 50 percent no. That doesn't happen often on this show.
Coming up next, the search for life on Mars. As the Red Planet moves closer to Earth -- it is actually now moving away just slightly than it's been for thousands of years. I'll be joined by astrophysicist and astronomer Charles Liu next.
Stay with us for these spectacular pictures. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, skygazers around the world have been enjoying a rare close encounter with the planet Mars. Mars is now closer to Earth than it's been in the past 60,000 years. I'm going to make a little adjustment in that when I talk with Charles Liu, who's sitting here with me. Behind Mars, of course, billions of stars in our heavens.
All of that is what excites my next guest. And he has the opportunity to live that excitement every day. Charles Liu is an astrophysicist. He is at the American Museum of Natural History and is kind enough to join us on this auspicious occasion.
Good to have you here.
CHARLES LIU, ASTROPHYSICIST, AMERICAN MUSEUM OF NATL. HISTORY: Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: This is a remarkable opportunity. Of course, it's not been closer in 60,000 years, won't be for almost 300 more years.
LIU: Right.
DOBBS: But the idea of looking up and seeing Mars in the heavens with the naked eye is just incredible with its dominance.
LIU: Absolutely. It's always visible when the orbital situations warrant. But in this instance, because the two planets are tracking in such a way that they're just exactly lined up. They're closer now at 34.6 million miles than they've been in the past 60,000 years, just as you said.
DOBBS: And the nearest opposition occurred at what time today?
LIU: 5:51 a.m. Eastern Time.
DOBBS: 5:51 this morning?
LIU: This morning. But that's OK. The view of Mars will still be beautiful.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: It's moved how far in that period of time?
LIU: That's right.
DOBBS: Out of probably -- what? -- about perhaps 50, 60,000 miles?
LIU: That's right.
DOBBS: Tell us what we should be looking for, those of us who are fortunate enough to have telescopes, to have binoculars, because even with binoculars much can be seen. LIU: That's right. Mars, although it is big now compared to how it often is, it's still about the size of a dime held at a distance of 100 yards. So you'd need a telescope to see any significant detail on there.
What you'll most likely catch with a decent size backyard telescope is a small white patch near the edge, one of the edges, and that is its south polar icecap. It's a huge region hundreds of miles across of carbon dioxide frozen and possibly frozen water underneath.
DOBBS: There -- you said possibly frozen water. Of course, what is exciting many astrophysicists, astronomers, geologists, is the prospect that there is true water ice on the planet.
LIU: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Where do you stand? Do you believe it is?
LIU: It seems very likely.
In the past five year, we've gotten more and more evidence that liquid water may even exist underneath the surface of Mars. And since liquid water exists in warm areas, surely solid water, or ice, ought to exist on the surface as well. But we're still not 100 percent certain. That's why we keep sending probes and spacecraft to go find out.
DOBBS: Five of them, two from Europe two from the United States, one from Japan on their way.
LIU: That's right.
DOBBS: Do you think it will be determinant on this issue?
LIU: Well, maybe not these particular spacecraft. But there will be many spacecraft down the years.
DOBBS: You're looking at the man on mars, the famous face.
LIU: Yes indeed. If you look on enough mountaintops, sooner or later you'll find a face somewhere. I think faces have been found on spaghetti, too, right?
DOBBS: They've been found on spaghetti. They take on all sorts of varying levels of significance for all of us.
LIU: Absolutely.
DOBBS: The idea is that so many telescopes are being bought now. Space.com reported last week that telescopes are just flying out of the windows -- out of the stores around the country. Do you think that is a turning point for popular astronomy?
LIU: I hope so. Mars has more than any other object in the sky embodied our fascination with other worlds and extraterrestrial life. And so this close encounter, which has gotten so much publicity, it may really stimulate that fascination yet again, from Percival Lowell's discoveries 100 years ago, purported discoveries of canals on Mars, to "War of the Worlds" to Ray Bradbury's "Martian Chronicles" and now maybe real science and real extraterrestrial life discovered on Mars.
DOBBS: Charles Liu. We thank you very much for being with us.
LIU: Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: Thanks for putting some of the excitement in perspective. We'll keep look up.
LIU: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next -- cutting back on health care benefits. Cutting back some hospitals for this country's veterans. Drastic proposals that could leave some veterans uncared for. Secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs, Anthony Principi, joins us. Here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The recent proposal to close seven VA hospitals across the country has generated a huge outpouring of emotion and protests and rallies are taking place around the country while Congress plans to hold hearings on the matter next month. Joining me now to talk about these proposed closings, the state of the nation's VA health care system, is Anthony Principi. He is the secretary of the Department of Veteran's Affairs. Good to have you with us, Mr. Secretary.
ANTHONY PRINCIPI, SECRETARY DEPT. OF VETERAN'S AFFAIRS: Good to be with you.
DOBBS: Today motorcycles roaring through the streets of Crawford, Texas. Veterans' flags flying, protesting the proposed closure of the VA hospital in Waco, Texas. In one degree or another protests are beginning at a time when the nation's heart is really focused on those who are serving in conflict. What's going to happen?
PRINCIPI: Well, these are difficult issues. But health care has -- health care delivery in American has changed dramatically, Lou, over the past 20, 30 years. Technology, drug therapy, telemedicine. And the VA needs to be on the cutting edge of medicine in the 21st century, not the trailing edge of the century gone by.
And over the past 100, 150 years we have built up infrastructure that the general accounting office reported to Congress is we're wasting almost $400 million every year, dollars that could be used to treat more veterans, to buy more drugs. And this is an attempt to try to rationalize our infrastructure.
DOBBS: I know that you've appointed a commission to study these proposals to close these seven facilities in particular. Out of the, what is it, 161 total facilities?
PRINCIPI: Correct.
DOBBS: Facilities around the country. But in those regions you appreciate as a veteran yourself, a man concerned about not only administering Veteran's Affairs but concerned about those veterans, what this is creating. That report will not come out until the midst of an election year.
PRINCIPI: Correct.
DOBBS: This looks like dynamite politically.
PRINCIPI: Well, I hope it won't be. I believe it is good policy and good policy should drive the politics. And the commission is headed by Ed Alvarez, who spent eight years in the Hanoi Hilton, first pilot shot down over Vietnam, second to none in his commitment to veterans.
But we're opening new hospitals as well in Nevada in Las Vegas and Orlando, Florida. We're opening up new spinal cord injury units. We're opening up 48 new outpatient clinics. So it's not just about consolidating some facilities. Not really closing beds but moving the beds but also trying to build the infrastructure where the veterans are.
DOBBS: You run the largest health care operation -- system in the world.
PRINCIPI: Correct.
DOBBS: For veterans. Yet veterans are being turned away. There are still issues. I know you've been working rigorously to fix that to create priorities for those most in need and most deserving amongst those veterans. When are we going to see every veteran have access on a reasonable and timely basis?
PRINCIPI: By the end of this year. It's my goal, my vision that there are going to be no waiting lists for veterans who are enrolled in our VA health care system. No veteran should wait more than 30 days to receive primary care.
We've grown from 2.9 million veterans who came to the va in 1998. We have 7 million enrolled today, of which 5 million are users. This year we'll have 50 million outpatient visits and we'll fill probably close to 200 million prescriptions for drugs and admit 565,000 veterans into our hospital. So we are growing, and our budget, the president and the Congress over the past three years, our budget -- the president and the Congress, over the past 3 years -- our budget has grown by 32 percent.
DOBBS: We'll all be checking in with you probably before but certainly by the end of the year Mr. Secretary. As will a lot of veterans, as you well know.
PRINCIPI: Indeed.
DOBBS: Anthony Principi, secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs. Good to have you with us.
PRINCIPI: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: Thank you.
One of this country's most famous and recent veterans is Private Jessica Lynch. Private Lynch today honorably discharged from the U.S. army. She of course was badly injured during the war in Iraq, held as a prisoner of war and then dramatically rescued from an Iraqi hospital. A spokeswoman at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center said Private Lynch was medically retired because of those injuries she received.
As we've been reporting, more Americans have died in Iraq since the end of major combat operations than in the first phase of the war. That is just one of the many contentious political issues now facing the country, issues that include the California recall, to of course the Ten Commandments monument controversy.
Joining me now with their thoughts is Ron Brownstein. He is CNN political analyst, editor of the -- contributing editor of the "L.A. Times." And CNN political correspondent Candy Crowley joining us from our Washington, D.C. bureau. Good to have you with us.
Let me ask you both, and Ron, because you are so proximate to one of the most fascinating stories, and that's the California recall, we're seeing some slippage. Is this recall really going to result in the ejection of Gray Davis from Sacramento as governor?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Lou, Gray Davis has made it a lot closer in polls in the last few days, particularly our own "L.A. Times" poll by rallying Democrats with a very partisan argument, arguing that -- trying to portray the recall as part of a pattern of Republican misbehavior, what he calls Republican misbehavior, starting with impeachment, the 2000 election and battles over redistricting in other states.
But while that can bring him within range, it's still a challenge for him to get over the top. I mean, he has a terrible approval rating. You have enormous dissatisfaction with the direction of the state and the quality of the state economy. And while he can get close, each point from this point out gets harder.
DOBBS: I didn't hear you declare the recall one way or the other.
BROWNSTEIN: No. I think -- look, my bet is it's close either way. Davis could narrowly win or narrowly lose.
DOBBS: All right. Candy, you follow, as does Ron, the broad breadth of these issues. If I may, let me ask you what you make of Howard Dean's remarkable surge here to raise $10 million in the third quarter tying former president Clinton's record eight years ago, a 21- point lead in the New Hampshire polling right now. What do you make of this? CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I make it first of all that it makes a much more exciting race I think than it would have been without Howard Dean. That second of all, the Internet has proven to be, not only a way to raise substantial money, but a way to bring crowds together. And that this is a man who is selling himself as sort of a new kind of candidate and he's using a new sort of medium, which everybody is trying very hard to catch up on. He has done a remarkable job. It's been a very smart campaign.
DOBBS: And what are the political implications, if any, that both of you see as a result of the Ten Commandments monument controversy in Montgomery, Alabama? Is there a national implication here? Is there more going on than meets at least my eye? Ron?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I'm not sure there's a national implication directly from this, Lou, but what we've seen over the last few election cycles is that cultural issues have become a more valuable predictor of how people vote than economic interests. I mean, we really are seeing the electorate divided more along lines of values than of interests.
If you look at 2000, clearly the best predictor of how someone was going to vote was how often they went to church between George Bush and Al Gore. And I suspect we will continue to see a lot of that in 2004. These really are the issues that are dividing the American public and really predicting which side they line up with in these national and even to some extent state campaigns.
DOBBS: Candy, the same question, but I want to just add one thing. It strikes me, and I mentioned this to Brian Cabell at the outset of the show, very few protesters showed up in Montgomery, a large city, the capital in Alabama, demonstrating one way or the other on this issue. What do you make of that in the context of this -- the cultural values issue that Ron just mentioned?
CROWLEY: You know, here's what I think, I think that even both sides of any kind of cultural issue understand the power of the media. They certainly got media attention far beyond their numbers, and that's really what this is about in many ways.
It is the true believers, and I don't mean that as a slam, on both sides of this issue that tend to come out. I think we see that in sort of a lot of these cultural issues that come out. I think you saw, and I agree with Ron, pretty much an Alabama issue at this point.
DOBBS: One thing we know for certain is that the president's policies in Iraq are certainly a national issue. We have seen the president's popularity in the most recent polls decline. Still above 50 percent, but perilously close to 50 percent. How significant is that in your judgment? Candy, you first, please.
CROWLEY: You know, we're a year away anything can happen. We have the Gallup Poll that came out today, Lou, that shows him at 59 percent. If we hadn't seen him at 60 and 70 and 80, it would look pretty good. But inside it shows there are some problems for him. He looks a lot more vulnerable than he used to. DOBBS: Ron?
BROWNSTEIN: One fascinating corallary, Lou, the decline in support for the way things are going in Iraq is part of the reason why Howard Dean is generating those crowds. He is getting a second wave of momentum by the antipathy of Democrats toward the policy in Iraq and him being identified as the clearest opponent of that.
DOBBS: Ron Brownstein, Candy Crowley thank you both so much. We appreciate it.
When we continue -- we'll have the results of tonight's poll and New York Stock Exchange chairman Richard Grasso's multimillion-dollar payday. Even in this age of corporate reform and executive compensation constraint, not excess.
Christine Romans will have that story and the markets next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Not much movement in the markets today. Some movement on our poll question. Are you disappointed, like the department of justice, that Oklahoma's attorney general filed charges against Worldcom and six of its executives? 4 percent of you said you were disappointed. 96 percent don't seem emotionally distraught.
The board of the New York Stock Exchange today said it paid chairman and CEO Richard Grasso nearly $140 million in various benefits and incentives in pay. The staggering sum of money a shock even for some Wall Street insiders. Christine Romans with the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: The NYSE board assured chairman Richard Grasso a $1.4 million salary and a guaranteed bonus of another million a year. And he's cashing out the compensation he's already earned. The exchange is paying Grasso $40 million in savings, almost $48 million in prior incentives, and a retirement boon of more than $51 million. A total payout of $139 1/2 million. A hefty check. Compare that payout with the performance of the exchange he runs. The NYSE earned $27 million in the first half of this year, a period when the number of companies newly listing their stock there fell by half. His supporters say he deserves every penny. Corporate governance experts disagree.
NELL MINOW, THE CORPORATE LIBRARY: It's astonishing in this day and age that any enterprise, especially the New York Stock Exchange, can think that that's acceptable. I think he's really more of a bureaucrat than the CEO of a public company, and I think he should be paid like a bureaucrat.
ROMANS: Executive pay has long been secret at the NYSE. Even long-time members of the exchange have said they were surprised by tales of Grasso's hefty pay. And some members privately complained of a runaway board and a runaway chairman. (END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Criticism as well from the former chairman of the New York Stock Exchange, William Donaldson. He's now the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission. A source at the SEC tells us Donaldson is displeased, especially since he's been lobbying against excessive executive compensation. The SEC says it is looking into this matter, Lou.
DOBBS: A pretty good day for a fellow who runs a quasi- governmental not for profit organization. Christine, thanks. Christine Romans.
Finally tonight, good health does not always come in pill form. As Kitty Pilgrim reports, sometimes it can actually be worn on your wrist.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Electronic pollution. It's all around us. Cell phones, radio waves, computer vibes. Except if you're wearing this, a Philip Stein watch with a special teslar chip developed by a doctor is said to dispel electrico magnetic fields. At Bloomingdale's the simple ones $595. With diamonds, just under two grand.
FRANCINE KLEIN, V.P. BLOOMINGDALES: People who bought it and are wearing it do feel much better. We had some of our buyers wear it and feel much better about it. So we do believe that it works.
PILGRIM: The concept of wearing something on your wrist to feel better isn't new. Copper or ionized bracelets have been popular for years.
(on camera): Everyone knows that golfers tend to be a bit obsessional. Well, they claim that these bracelets help their game.
(voice-ver): They're stocked in popular golf shops. But salespeople don't make any promises.
JAY OH, NEW YORK GOLF CENTER: Quite honestly, I'm not 100 percent sure what they are. We do know that a lot of people ask for them.
PILGRIM: The popular theory goes the copper is absorbed through your skin and lessens the inflammation in your joints, so movement is freer, even if the copper can turn your wrist green.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought that I had arthritis, and I went to a doctor. And I had bought this. And he said to me, does it help? And I said I don't know. And one month later all the stiffness from my hands left and so I won't take it off.
PILGRIM: There are no studies that will support any of these claims, but medical experts say, it can't hurt. And a good day on the golf course does have some therapeutic value. Kitty Pilgrim, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "LIVE FROM THE HEADLINES" with Anderson Cooper is next.
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Rampage; Should There Be A National Curriculum In Our Schools?>
