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CNN Live Sunday

Debate: Should Our School Children Wear Uniforms?

Aired August 31, 2003 - 16:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDERICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Well, here in the states, the school year is beginning with new looks in some places. Some public school students are warming up to the idea of wearing uniforms. Others still not so happy about the idea. In Georgia school districts, uniform wearing is being called dress for success. Why are some calling it a failure already?
Johnny Brown, superintendent of De Kalb County schools, proposed the dress code and gives it high marks. Lee-Ann Williams says it doesn't make the grade at all. She's with Citizens Against Mandatory School Uniforms. Good to see both of you.

All right, school uniforms, dress codes, it's nothing new. But it is, at least in De Kalb County, and so far, Mr. Brown, you're getting sort of mixed reviews. Some kids who are already starting to wear uniforms in schools and others who are saying I'm opting to wear my own thing. So is it a success or failure so far?

JOHNNY BROWN, DE KALB COUNTY SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT: Oh, there's no question but that it's been a successful experience for us. Most of the students in our schools have cooperated. They're wearing the colors which were selected by the individual schools, and they're dressed appropriately.

And frankly, our primary interest has been to make sure that students dress decently and they dress appropriately for school, and most of our students have been very, very cooperative.

WHITFIELD: And talk about the primary objective, though. When you talk about decently, what you've been seeing has been what, disturbing or distracting to learning in school?

BROWN: Well, you know, I first of all want to applaud the vision of our board of education and the cooperation of our parents, our teachers, and our students for helping us to think through how to raise standards across the board, including making sure that students are dressed appropriate for school.

But the primary focus, actually, is on academics, but also on making sure that we prepare our youth for college and also for the world of work. And we want to make sure that our schools are as safe as we can make them. Those are actually the areas that we're really concentrating on.

WHITFIELD: So Ms. Williams, if we're talking about, you know, the real basis of this change, or to have a dress code is really because so many kids have felt distracted, they haven't been able to focus on their learning. What is the matter with that?

LEE-ANN WILLIAMS, DE KALB COUNTY PARENT: Well, the fact is we had a dress code in place already, before Dr. Brown came to the system last year. And if there was a problem with appropriate dress, it was because that dress code wasn't being enforced.

Dress for Success, as it's called, is really an imposition of a strict standard of styles and colors of clothing. So it doesn't have anything to do with decency per se. The dress code is already there.

WHITFIELD: Aren't there also some parents who are applauding it, saying that if anything it helps them economically. It means that they're not having to kind of keep up with the Joneses as a lot of their kids want to buy what's fashionable, what's in, et cetera, and this way it can kind of, you know, tighten up on some of the spending for their wardrobe for the school year?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think that's an issue that parents have to resolve by deciding what's important and imparting their values to their children. I've never spent very much money on my own children's clothing. I find that thrift store shopping is the way to go. And to go out and buy a whole new set of uniform clothing would have cost me a lot more than I normally spend. So I don't think that's a valid argument.

WHITFIELD: So what about that, Mr. Brown? What about reconditioning a lot of parents, the way they're spending money, the way they're saying yes or no to certain attire for their kids? Maybe some of the restrictions ought to be at home as opposed to, you know, the pressures being put on the kids to adhere to these dress codes?

BROWN: Well, you know, most of the debate has been about whether to wear certain colors or styles, and parents have the option to waive out of that part of the procedure. But what we believe should be non- negotiable is the part about making sure that students are dressed appropriately.

I mean, students know the difference, and I believe parents pretty much agree that students shouldn't dress with pants where the underwear is showing or having their stomach out or having spaghetti straps top type tops or halter tops or shirts that have vulgar language on the shirts.

And we just decided that, of course, we had a code in place, but unfortunately it wasn't enforced as it really should have been enforced. So our procedure in place now has been implemented in a more dramatic way. We've included parents in this discussion. And in fact, the schools, the school leaders, as well as parents are coming together to determine which colors and styles are appropriate.

But for those communities or parents where they just feel like they would prefer not to have their children wear a certain color, they have the option of waiving those situations. But they're not able to waive the part about the actual appropriateness of dress.

WHITFIELD: So Ms. Williams, why would any parent say, I want my child to wear spaghetti straps. I want that child to be able to show their underwear? I mean, some of the things Mr. Brown is saying certainly doesn't seem unreasonable. Does it seem like most parents would like the idea of their child looking more dignified coming to school?

WILLIAMS: Our group completely supports the dress code, and we always have. When this program was put into place, there was not an option to opt out of the program. It was presented over the summer when there was no chance for input from parents, and we were told this is what you will be wearing. There was, I'm sure...

WHITFIELD: It sounds like there is an option.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: There is now. After a year of working hard to demand that we have the right to parent our children the way that we see fit. That has never included waiving the dress code.

WHITFIELD: Well, let's talk about this waiver. It sounds like you are giving parents an option. At the same time on the flip side of that argument, some might say, well, isn't this counterproductive. You're giving an option. So which is it, enforcing a dress code or giving folks an option?

BROWN: We're enforcing the dress code, but at the same time there is the waiver part of the procedure for parents to determine whether their children will or will not wearing a certain color or style. But again, we began this procedure back last summer. We gave months for the discussion to occur before it would actually be implemented in January. And there was much discussion, much debate, as Ms. Williams just mentioned.

That is precisely what we thought would happen. That was the reason why we waited from last summer until January before the implementation would occur. And even when it was implemented, it was implemented for grades K through grade eight and with an eye toward implementing the high school portion this fall. And it's going very, very well.

I spent a lot of time out in the schools. I visited all of our high schools. And frankly, not only are adults applauding our efforts, but our students, our youth have been very complimentary. They know the difference in right and wrong. And frankly, they appreciate it that we're trying to make sure the environment is proper for learning, again, focusing on academics, but making sure the environment is set where the conditions are proper for learning.

WHITFIELD: In fact, I have one quote from one student who says, a dress code will not kill anyone and might even teach us something. So what are the kids telling you, Ms. Williams? Are most of the kids objecting? Are they saying that this really does restrict their freedom of expression?

WILLIAMS: I know there's one young woman in -- who's been active in our group who was just in Washington this summer as an intern, who is a very responsible young woman, and her attitude is that she is capable of making a reasonable choice of the clothing that she's going to wear. She has to do this when she's working in a very responsible capacity. And she feels that she should be given the right to make a reasonable decision.

WHITFIELD: All right. We're out of time. Lee-Ann Williams, Citizens Against Mandatory School Uniforms, you get the last word on this one. And Johnny Brown of the De Kalb County School System here in Georgia as the superintendent. Thanks to both of you for joining us.

BROWN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Appreciate it.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Good luck on the next school year.

BROWN: Thank you very much.

WHITFIELD: At least we're already in it now.

BROWN: Well, achievement's up. We're doing well. Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Very good.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired August 31, 2003 - 16:15   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDERICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Well, here in the states, the school year is beginning with new looks in some places. Some public school students are warming up to the idea of wearing uniforms. Others still not so happy about the idea. In Georgia school districts, uniform wearing is being called dress for success. Why are some calling it a failure already?
Johnny Brown, superintendent of De Kalb County schools, proposed the dress code and gives it high marks. Lee-Ann Williams says it doesn't make the grade at all. She's with Citizens Against Mandatory School Uniforms. Good to see both of you.

All right, school uniforms, dress codes, it's nothing new. But it is, at least in De Kalb County, and so far, Mr. Brown, you're getting sort of mixed reviews. Some kids who are already starting to wear uniforms in schools and others who are saying I'm opting to wear my own thing. So is it a success or failure so far?

JOHNNY BROWN, DE KALB COUNTY SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT: Oh, there's no question but that it's been a successful experience for us. Most of the students in our schools have cooperated. They're wearing the colors which were selected by the individual schools, and they're dressed appropriately.

And frankly, our primary interest has been to make sure that students dress decently and they dress appropriately for school, and most of our students have been very, very cooperative.

WHITFIELD: And talk about the primary objective, though. When you talk about decently, what you've been seeing has been what, disturbing or distracting to learning in school?

BROWN: Well, you know, I first of all want to applaud the vision of our board of education and the cooperation of our parents, our teachers, and our students for helping us to think through how to raise standards across the board, including making sure that students are dressed appropriate for school.

But the primary focus, actually, is on academics, but also on making sure that we prepare our youth for college and also for the world of work. And we want to make sure that our schools are as safe as we can make them. Those are actually the areas that we're really concentrating on.

WHITFIELD: So Ms. Williams, if we're talking about, you know, the real basis of this change, or to have a dress code is really because so many kids have felt distracted, they haven't been able to focus on their learning. What is the matter with that?

LEE-ANN WILLIAMS, DE KALB COUNTY PARENT: Well, the fact is we had a dress code in place already, before Dr. Brown came to the system last year. And if there was a problem with appropriate dress, it was because that dress code wasn't being enforced.

Dress for Success, as it's called, is really an imposition of a strict standard of styles and colors of clothing. So it doesn't have anything to do with decency per se. The dress code is already there.

WHITFIELD: Aren't there also some parents who are applauding it, saying that if anything it helps them economically. It means that they're not having to kind of keep up with the Joneses as a lot of their kids want to buy what's fashionable, what's in, et cetera, and this way it can kind of, you know, tighten up on some of the spending for their wardrobe for the school year?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think that's an issue that parents have to resolve by deciding what's important and imparting their values to their children. I've never spent very much money on my own children's clothing. I find that thrift store shopping is the way to go. And to go out and buy a whole new set of uniform clothing would have cost me a lot more than I normally spend. So I don't think that's a valid argument.

WHITFIELD: So what about that, Mr. Brown? What about reconditioning a lot of parents, the way they're spending money, the way they're saying yes or no to certain attire for their kids? Maybe some of the restrictions ought to be at home as opposed to, you know, the pressures being put on the kids to adhere to these dress codes?

BROWN: Well, you know, most of the debate has been about whether to wear certain colors or styles, and parents have the option to waive out of that part of the procedure. But what we believe should be non- negotiable is the part about making sure that students are dressed appropriately.

I mean, students know the difference, and I believe parents pretty much agree that students shouldn't dress with pants where the underwear is showing or having their stomach out or having spaghetti straps top type tops or halter tops or shirts that have vulgar language on the shirts.

And we just decided that, of course, we had a code in place, but unfortunately it wasn't enforced as it really should have been enforced. So our procedure in place now has been implemented in a more dramatic way. We've included parents in this discussion. And in fact, the schools, the school leaders, as well as parents are coming together to determine which colors and styles are appropriate.

But for those communities or parents where they just feel like they would prefer not to have their children wear a certain color, they have the option of waiving those situations. But they're not able to waive the part about the actual appropriateness of dress.

WHITFIELD: So Ms. Williams, why would any parent say, I want my child to wear spaghetti straps. I want that child to be able to show their underwear? I mean, some of the things Mr. Brown is saying certainly doesn't seem unreasonable. Does it seem like most parents would like the idea of their child looking more dignified coming to school?

WILLIAMS: Our group completely supports the dress code, and we always have. When this program was put into place, there was not an option to opt out of the program. It was presented over the summer when there was no chance for input from parents, and we were told this is what you will be wearing. There was, I'm sure...

WHITFIELD: It sounds like there is an option.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: There is now. After a year of working hard to demand that we have the right to parent our children the way that we see fit. That has never included waiving the dress code.

WHITFIELD: Well, let's talk about this waiver. It sounds like you are giving parents an option. At the same time on the flip side of that argument, some might say, well, isn't this counterproductive. You're giving an option. So which is it, enforcing a dress code or giving folks an option?

BROWN: We're enforcing the dress code, but at the same time there is the waiver part of the procedure for parents to determine whether their children will or will not wearing a certain color or style. But again, we began this procedure back last summer. We gave months for the discussion to occur before it would actually be implemented in January. And there was much discussion, much debate, as Ms. Williams just mentioned.

That is precisely what we thought would happen. That was the reason why we waited from last summer until January before the implementation would occur. And even when it was implemented, it was implemented for grades K through grade eight and with an eye toward implementing the high school portion this fall. And it's going very, very well.

I spent a lot of time out in the schools. I visited all of our high schools. And frankly, not only are adults applauding our efforts, but our students, our youth have been very complimentary. They know the difference in right and wrong. And frankly, they appreciate it that we're trying to make sure the environment is proper for learning, again, focusing on academics, but making sure the environment is set where the conditions are proper for learning.

WHITFIELD: In fact, I have one quote from one student who says, a dress code will not kill anyone and might even teach us something. So what are the kids telling you, Ms. Williams? Are most of the kids objecting? Are they saying that this really does restrict their freedom of expression?

WILLIAMS: I know there's one young woman in -- who's been active in our group who was just in Washington this summer as an intern, who is a very responsible young woman, and her attitude is that she is capable of making a reasonable choice of the clothing that she's going to wear. She has to do this when she's working in a very responsible capacity. And she feels that she should be given the right to make a reasonable decision.

WHITFIELD: All right. We're out of time. Lee-Ann Williams, Citizens Against Mandatory School Uniforms, you get the last word on this one. And Johnny Brown of the De Kalb County School System here in Georgia as the superintendent. Thanks to both of you for joining us.

BROWN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Appreciate it.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Good luck on the next school year.

BROWN: Thank you very much.

WHITFIELD: At least we're already in it now.

BROWN: Well, achievement's up. We're doing well. Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Very good.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com