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CNN Live Sunday
Bombing In Najaf Qualifies As Full Blown Crisis
Aired August 31, 2003 - 18:12 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN ANCHOR: Will this week's bombing of a sacred site for Shiites in Najaf leave the United States trying to governor Iraq in the midst of a civil war? Well, our next guest has a good grasp of just how serious this crisis is. Daniel Brumberg is a professor of government at Georgetown University and a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
Professor Brumberg, last time we spoke this time last week, I asked you if you thought it was a full blown crisis yet in Iraq after the attack at U.N. headquarters in Baghdad. Now following the attack at the mosque in Najaf and the murder of Ayatolla Hakim, what do you think about that? Has it changed things?
DANIEL BRUMBERG, PROFESSOR GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Well, I certainly think that the bombing qualifies this for a full blown crisis. The administration is facing a moment of decision in terms of redefining how it's going to approach both security and political issues.
The prospect of a civil war between Shia and Sunnies is now real and a possible internal conflict within the Shiite camp as well so it has turned into a major crisis at this point.
KOPPEL: And what can the U.S. do to mitigate the circumstances?
BRUMBERG: There's no easy answer to that question. One of the things that is necessary is the governing body become an institution which symbolizes the unit of the Iraqi people. The governing council doesn't even have the machanism, the means, the technology to communicate to the wider Iraqi populace. So that's one thing that has to be done. It has to be given the technological, politcal institutional means to become a real representativetive institution. It doesn't have that.
The other obvious point is we have to increase the involvement, not only of the international community in maintaining security in Iraq, but also as the administration is attempting to do, Iraqi police and soldiers and officers, as well.
KOPPEL: Senator Richard Luger, Republican, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said today that the Ayatolla was a bridge amoung the various factions in Iraq which must be replaced. Who do you find to replace him?
BRUMBERG: Well, that's a really tough question and a good question because we -- Hakim was somebody who represented that bridge because he felt that the clergy should be involved in politics but should not take a leading role as the leading political institution. They should serve as sort of moral leaders.
Now you have two factions left, if you like, or two potential leaders. Mutad Desadr (ph) who represents an extremist view. He wants a kind of Ayatolla Komeini type state. And Ayatolla Sustani, the great -- grand Ayatolla who represents the notion that the clergy should stay completely out of politics.
So this middle ground occupied by the late al Hakim is now missing. His brother is in the governing council, but Abdel Haziz doesn't have the same moral or religious authority as the late al Hakim. So I think that it's going to be quite a feat to look for one man to replace Hakim. The solution has to be found in the institutional apparatus of representation, in part, instead of one man. There's going to be no savior of this situation. No one man who can be looked at as the savior of the leader of the Shiite community at this point.
KOPPEL: One thing that the U.S. obviously needs to do, and we've been saying this for weeks now, is to get the security situation under control. We don't know who is behind the attack in Najaf, but there are any number of suspects from the former Ba'athist party officials to perhaps some foreign elements to perhaps even al Qaeda. There's been talk, perhaps, of turning things over, or getting the Iraq police, paramilitary more involved. They say they know these guys better than anyone. What do you think?
BRUMBERG: Well, that's, in the medium and the long run, that's absolutely necessary, but the administration rightly fears that by turning too much authority over to these militias, they will become a problem in and of themselves. So, we have to be able to recognize that while we want to do that in the long term, increase their role, the United States military will have to take the primary role for the time being. And that may require an increase of American troops.
KOPPEL: OK. Well in about 30 seconds, what can the U.S. do, immediately, on the ground to try to prevent these kinds of attacks from happening again.
BRUMBERG: Well it has to increase both American presence and use what Iraqi troops we already have and we have begun training a military force to increase their presence on the ground. And we also have to the Shiites quite clearly that, if you want our cooperation, you can't at the same time reject our presence in front of religious shrines, such as the tomb of Imam Ali. There has to be a readiness to work with the American troops, as well, from the Shiite side. It's not all our responsibility.
KOPPEL: Perhaps one promising sign is that some folks, some of the leaders in Najaf, have asked the FBI to come over to help. Daniel Brumberg, as always, thanks for coming in and sharing your insights.
BRUMBERG: Very happy to do so.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired August 31, 2003 - 18:12 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN ANCHOR: Will this week's bombing of a sacred site for Shiites in Najaf leave the United States trying to governor Iraq in the midst of a civil war? Well, our next guest has a good grasp of just how serious this crisis is. Daniel Brumberg is a professor of government at Georgetown University and a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
Professor Brumberg, last time we spoke this time last week, I asked you if you thought it was a full blown crisis yet in Iraq after the attack at U.N. headquarters in Baghdad. Now following the attack at the mosque in Najaf and the murder of Ayatolla Hakim, what do you think about that? Has it changed things?
DANIEL BRUMBERG, PROFESSOR GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Well, I certainly think that the bombing qualifies this for a full blown crisis. The administration is facing a moment of decision in terms of redefining how it's going to approach both security and political issues.
The prospect of a civil war between Shia and Sunnies is now real and a possible internal conflict within the Shiite camp as well so it has turned into a major crisis at this point.
KOPPEL: And what can the U.S. do to mitigate the circumstances?
BRUMBERG: There's no easy answer to that question. One of the things that is necessary is the governing body become an institution which symbolizes the unit of the Iraqi people. The governing council doesn't even have the machanism, the means, the technology to communicate to the wider Iraqi populace. So that's one thing that has to be done. It has to be given the technological, politcal institutional means to become a real representativetive institution. It doesn't have that.
The other obvious point is we have to increase the involvement, not only of the international community in maintaining security in Iraq, but also as the administration is attempting to do, Iraqi police and soldiers and officers, as well.
KOPPEL: Senator Richard Luger, Republican, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said today that the Ayatolla was a bridge amoung the various factions in Iraq which must be replaced. Who do you find to replace him?
BRUMBERG: Well, that's a really tough question and a good question because we -- Hakim was somebody who represented that bridge because he felt that the clergy should be involved in politics but should not take a leading role as the leading political institution. They should serve as sort of moral leaders.
Now you have two factions left, if you like, or two potential leaders. Mutad Desadr (ph) who represents an extremist view. He wants a kind of Ayatolla Komeini type state. And Ayatolla Sustani, the great -- grand Ayatolla who represents the notion that the clergy should stay completely out of politics.
So this middle ground occupied by the late al Hakim is now missing. His brother is in the governing council, but Abdel Haziz doesn't have the same moral or religious authority as the late al Hakim. So I think that it's going to be quite a feat to look for one man to replace Hakim. The solution has to be found in the institutional apparatus of representation, in part, instead of one man. There's going to be no savior of this situation. No one man who can be looked at as the savior of the leader of the Shiite community at this point.
KOPPEL: One thing that the U.S. obviously needs to do, and we've been saying this for weeks now, is to get the security situation under control. We don't know who is behind the attack in Najaf, but there are any number of suspects from the former Ba'athist party officials to perhaps some foreign elements to perhaps even al Qaeda. There's been talk, perhaps, of turning things over, or getting the Iraq police, paramilitary more involved. They say they know these guys better than anyone. What do you think?
BRUMBERG: Well, that's, in the medium and the long run, that's absolutely necessary, but the administration rightly fears that by turning too much authority over to these militias, they will become a problem in and of themselves. So, we have to be able to recognize that while we want to do that in the long term, increase their role, the United States military will have to take the primary role for the time being. And that may require an increase of American troops.
KOPPEL: OK. Well in about 30 seconds, what can the U.S. do, immediately, on the ground to try to prevent these kinds of attacks from happening again.
BRUMBERG: Well it has to increase both American presence and use what Iraqi troops we already have and we have begun training a military force to increase their presence on the ground. And we also have to the Shiites quite clearly that, if you want our cooperation, you can't at the same time reject our presence in front of religious shrines, such as the tomb of Imam Ali. There has to be a readiness to work with the American troops, as well, from the Shiite side. It's not all our responsibility.
KOPPEL: Perhaps one promising sign is that some folks, some of the leaders in Najaf, have asked the FBI to come over to help. Daniel Brumberg, as always, thanks for coming in and sharing your insights.
BRUMBERG: Very happy to do so.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
