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CNN Live Today

Appeal Being Heard in Case of 12-year-old Murderer

Aired September 02, 2003 - 10:55   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, ANCHOR: We have an update for you on the case of Lionel Tate, the Florida teenager who was sentenced to life in the killing of a playmate. He appeared in court this hour seeking leniency for that.
CNN's John Zarrella has attended that hearing. It just wrapped up a few minutes ago. He joins us now by phone with the very latest.

John, what happened in court?

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, his defense attorney, Richard Rosenbaum, was in the Fourth District Court of Appeals, arguing to have Lionel Tate's conviction either sent back to the original trial court or to be thrown out completely by the appeals court.

Richard Rosenbaum arguing that competency evaluations were never ordered by the court and that they should have been ordered because clearly, Lionel Tate, in his belief, in the attorney's belief, was not competent to be standing trial, that his I.Q. was very low and that that was proven by psychologists and psychiatrists.

The judges, though, pressed him, saying, "Well, at what point should the trial judge have made the decision to go ahead and order the competency hearing? Why was that not brought up by the defense team at the time?" Of course, there was no clear answer to that.

When prosecutors got up to form their point in the case, they were asked, "Well, why should a 14-year-old then during the trial, 12 at the point of the crime, be charged with first degree murder and face life in prison without parole?" The prosecutors did not have clear answers to that either.

So the three-judge panel clearly has a lot to discuss and at the same time, figure out whether this case should be sent back or overturned. At the same time, the defense is also seeking clemency through the governor and the cabinet. And that is a separate track, which is also on track and moving forward, and we could have some movement there within the next three weeks -- Heidi.

COLLINS: All right. Thanks so very much, John Zarrella, coming to us from West Palm Beach, just attending that court hearing, the appeal hearing.

We want to go to CNN legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, to get a little bit more insight on all of this. He's coming to us live today from New York. Hello to you, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Heidi.

COLLINS: A lot happened, it sounds like, in that proceeding today. What do you think? Are they going to be able to appeal this?

TOOBIN: Well, this has been such a difficult case because of the youth of the defendant.

Frankly, as a legal matter, it seems like it's pretty unlikely that this case will be overturned. It is within the laws of the state of Florida to charge someone with this crime.

However, the governor of the state, Jeb Bush, has indicated some sympathy with lowering his sentence, giving some sort of clemency. It seems to me the clemency route is likely to be more successful for Tate than the legal route is. But, you know, I don't know for sure.

COLLINS: So what about the competent hearings that we heard John Zarrella talking about? Why didn't the judge order them? And the question that he brought up, when should a judge be looking at doing something like that?

TOOBIN: See, the defense is in a very difficult position here because anytime the defense asks for something that the judge should have done but he wasn't clearly asked for it at the time of the trial -- something the judge should have done on his own -- that's a very tough argument for the judge to make in any sort of legal proceeding.

Their much better argument is the simple argument, is that why would you charge a 12-year-old with first-degree murder, sentence him to life without parole? The problem there is that the laws of the state of Florida -- maybe they're right; maybe they're wrong -- but the laws seem to permit that. That's the tension here is does it make any sense, even if it is permissible under the law?

COLLINS: And also, you have to mention on that very question, the victim's side of things. Denise Eunick being the 6-year-old girl's mother. Anything that we're hearing there about what her thoughts are, now that this appeals process is underway?

TOOBIN: Well, just one of the things that I've done in, you know, reading the briefs here is just to recognize how horrible this crime was. I mean this 6-year-old girl was beaten to death.

Remember, Lionel Tate's defense at the trial was that he watched a lot of professional wrestling on TV, and he was just sort of body slamming like he saw his heroes do. In fact, her injuries were consistent with an extended, extended beating, and you can see why prosecutors were exercised about this case because it was just a horrible way for this poor little girl to die.

COLLINS: We also saw something unusual and maybe -- correct me if I'm wrong, if it's not unusual -- that a juror actually went to the stand and said that he thought the verdict was right that they came to but that the sentence was wrong. How unusual is that for a juror to go and make a statement like that?

TOOBIN: It's not really unprecedented. Jurors in most states are not -- do not participate in the sentencing. And they often, not all the time, but they often say, "Well, I thought he was guilty, but the sentence seems wildly disproportionate, wildly over the top."

It happens occasionally. It doesn't really have any legal significance. But it is a reminder here that a lot of people, not just the juror, think sentencing a 12-year-old to life in prison without parole is just simply excessive.

COLLINS: All right. Jeffrey Toobin, we certainly appreciate all of your comments on this today. And we'll be checking in with you a little bit later on, should anything else develop in this case and as the appeals process goes on.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired September 2, 2003 - 10:55   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, ANCHOR: We have an update for you on the case of Lionel Tate, the Florida teenager who was sentenced to life in the killing of a playmate. He appeared in court this hour seeking leniency for that.
CNN's John Zarrella has attended that hearing. It just wrapped up a few minutes ago. He joins us now by phone with the very latest.

John, what happened in court?

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, his defense attorney, Richard Rosenbaum, was in the Fourth District Court of Appeals, arguing to have Lionel Tate's conviction either sent back to the original trial court or to be thrown out completely by the appeals court.

Richard Rosenbaum arguing that competency evaluations were never ordered by the court and that they should have been ordered because clearly, Lionel Tate, in his belief, in the attorney's belief, was not competent to be standing trial, that his I.Q. was very low and that that was proven by psychologists and psychiatrists.

The judges, though, pressed him, saying, "Well, at what point should the trial judge have made the decision to go ahead and order the competency hearing? Why was that not brought up by the defense team at the time?" Of course, there was no clear answer to that.

When prosecutors got up to form their point in the case, they were asked, "Well, why should a 14-year-old then during the trial, 12 at the point of the crime, be charged with first degree murder and face life in prison without parole?" The prosecutors did not have clear answers to that either.

So the three-judge panel clearly has a lot to discuss and at the same time, figure out whether this case should be sent back or overturned. At the same time, the defense is also seeking clemency through the governor and the cabinet. And that is a separate track, which is also on track and moving forward, and we could have some movement there within the next three weeks -- Heidi.

COLLINS: All right. Thanks so very much, John Zarrella, coming to us from West Palm Beach, just attending that court hearing, the appeal hearing.

We want to go to CNN legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, to get a little bit more insight on all of this. He's coming to us live today from New York. Hello to you, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Heidi.

COLLINS: A lot happened, it sounds like, in that proceeding today. What do you think? Are they going to be able to appeal this?

TOOBIN: Well, this has been such a difficult case because of the youth of the defendant.

Frankly, as a legal matter, it seems like it's pretty unlikely that this case will be overturned. It is within the laws of the state of Florida to charge someone with this crime.

However, the governor of the state, Jeb Bush, has indicated some sympathy with lowering his sentence, giving some sort of clemency. It seems to me the clemency route is likely to be more successful for Tate than the legal route is. But, you know, I don't know for sure.

COLLINS: So what about the competent hearings that we heard John Zarrella talking about? Why didn't the judge order them? And the question that he brought up, when should a judge be looking at doing something like that?

TOOBIN: See, the defense is in a very difficult position here because anytime the defense asks for something that the judge should have done but he wasn't clearly asked for it at the time of the trial -- something the judge should have done on his own -- that's a very tough argument for the judge to make in any sort of legal proceeding.

Their much better argument is the simple argument, is that why would you charge a 12-year-old with first-degree murder, sentence him to life without parole? The problem there is that the laws of the state of Florida -- maybe they're right; maybe they're wrong -- but the laws seem to permit that. That's the tension here is does it make any sense, even if it is permissible under the law?

COLLINS: And also, you have to mention on that very question, the victim's side of things. Denise Eunick being the 6-year-old girl's mother. Anything that we're hearing there about what her thoughts are, now that this appeals process is underway?

TOOBIN: Well, just one of the things that I've done in, you know, reading the briefs here is just to recognize how horrible this crime was. I mean this 6-year-old girl was beaten to death.

Remember, Lionel Tate's defense at the trial was that he watched a lot of professional wrestling on TV, and he was just sort of body slamming like he saw his heroes do. In fact, her injuries were consistent with an extended, extended beating, and you can see why prosecutors were exercised about this case because it was just a horrible way for this poor little girl to die.

COLLINS: We also saw something unusual and maybe -- correct me if I'm wrong, if it's not unusual -- that a juror actually went to the stand and said that he thought the verdict was right that they came to but that the sentence was wrong. How unusual is that for a juror to go and make a statement like that?

TOOBIN: It's not really unprecedented. Jurors in most states are not -- do not participate in the sentencing. And they often, not all the time, but they often say, "Well, I thought he was guilty, but the sentence seems wildly disproportionate, wildly over the top."

It happens occasionally. It doesn't really have any legal significance. But it is a reminder here that a lot of people, not just the juror, think sentencing a 12-year-old to life in prison without parole is just simply excessive.

COLLINS: All right. Jeffrey Toobin, we certainly appreciate all of your comments on this today. And we'll be checking in with you a little bit later on, should anything else develop in this case and as the appeals process goes on.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com