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American Morning

New Lead in Bizarre Death of Pizza Delivery Man

Aired September 04, 2003 - 08:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: A new lead in the bizarre death of a pizza delivery man may lead to new questions for investigators. The FBI is expected to release pictures of what it calls a unique weapon that was found in Brian Well's car after he robbed a bank last week. Wells was arrested, told police he had been forced to commit the crime and then died when the bomb that was locked to him exploded. The FBI released photos of the bomb collar that Wells was wearing, hoping that it might provide some leads, as well.
N.G. Berrill is a forensic psychologist at New York's John Jay College and he joins us this morning.

Good morning.

N.G. BERRILL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST, JOHN JAY COLLEGE: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: Nice to see you, as always.

BERRILL: Hi.

O'BRIEN: This case is so, so weird. The FBI says they've got basically three working theories. One, Wells was doing it alone. Two, that what Wells was saying was actually accurate, someone did it to him. And, three, that he was a co-conspirator in the whole event.

Where do you fall in on this, and I know I'm asking you to kind of speculate on the case, but what do you think happened here? BERRILL: One and three. I think it's more likely that either he concocted this on his own or had an accomplice and they said, you know, this is going to spook people out, this is going to frighten them, let's go in there and try to get some money.

O'BRIEN: Yes, but he's strapped to a bomb and then he dies. I mean in some ways the case is so weird, it wasn't just sort of a ploy. To me, there is some resonance of truth in his story because it's so strange.

BERRILL: Sure.

O'BRIEN: I mean it's way out there. Why do you think it's not real?

BERRILL: Well, it would seem so, but if you were on a sort of in a desperate place in life, if you can imagine a place where you're at the end of your rope and you say, you know, I need a few bucks, I'm willing to do anything possible to get that money, and if I fail or if I'm cornered by the police rather than go to a psychiatric facility or be put in jail, I'm just going to pull the plug, you can imagine that scenario. And it's awful and it's desperate, but I can imagine that.

O'BRIEN: I read that you had a case that was similar to this one, which is odd in and of itself.

BERRILL: Sure.

O'BRIEN: Tell me about that case and what happened.

BERRILL: Well, a case that I saw several years ago, a fellow went into a bank here in New York to try to rob it. And then when he was caught, similarly, he claimed that someone had taken him off the street and had put a bomb in his pocket and he was trying to lay the crime off on strangers who just kind of randomly chose him from a sidewalk, had him walk into the bank. He was unsuccessful, obviously caught.

O'BRIEN: Did he have a bomb or any kind of weapon on him?

BERRILL: It was baloney. It turned out to be baloney. So in this sense he did his time in jail, came out, but stuck to the story. There was almost like a delusional component to way he talked about this.

O'BRIEN: It wasn't me.

BERRILL: It wasn't me, even after doing the jail time. So, you know, it's been thought of. You know, people have done this before.

O'BRIEN: There was a report about a weapon that the FBI has been talking about and been hedging about the description. So I first want to play you a little bit of an interview that Bill Hemmer did yesterday with the FBI special agent who's in charge of this investigation.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEN MCCABE, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, we're not going to say that it was a gun. He had another weapon and we may release later in the week what exactly the type of weapon it was. It was a little bit unique. And we may release that information for, also for the public to see what he was carrying and maybe that may help with this investigation.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: That's a rather intriguing answer. Are you saying it was not a gun?

MCCABE: Well, it's not what people traditionally think of as a gun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Once again, a story that's strange seems to get even stranger. Why not come out and say here's what the weapon was, everybody take a look? Why the hedging?

BERRILL: Well, two possibilities. One is that they didn't want to give people ideas -- here's a new, neat, you know, weapon you can build from the Internet, so we get a bunch of people out there that are, to use the term copycat, who say, you know, I'll do something similar. Or they really have a lead as to who might have been involved. If we go with scenario two, that is, somebody actually scooped this pizza guy up and put a bomb on him, then, you know, they don't want to tip their hand, I guess, and let people know who they're closing in on.

So there's both possibilities.

O'BRIEN: Yes, it seems like a world of possibilities in this case.

BERRILL: Yes. Yes.

O'BRIEN: N.G. Berrill, thanks for clarifying some of them.

BERRILL: Sure.

O'BRIEN: It's going to be interesting to see in the end how this all turns out.

BERRILL: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired September 4, 2003 - 08:15   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: A new lead in the bizarre death of a pizza delivery man may lead to new questions for investigators. The FBI is expected to release pictures of what it calls a unique weapon that was found in Brian Well's car after he robbed a bank last week. Wells was arrested, told police he had been forced to commit the crime and then died when the bomb that was locked to him exploded. The FBI released photos of the bomb collar that Wells was wearing, hoping that it might provide some leads, as well.
N.G. Berrill is a forensic psychologist at New York's John Jay College and he joins us this morning.

Good morning.

N.G. BERRILL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST, JOHN JAY COLLEGE: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: Nice to see you, as always.

BERRILL: Hi.

O'BRIEN: This case is so, so weird. The FBI says they've got basically three working theories. One, Wells was doing it alone. Two, that what Wells was saying was actually accurate, someone did it to him. And, three, that he was a co-conspirator in the whole event.

Where do you fall in on this, and I know I'm asking you to kind of speculate on the case, but what do you think happened here? BERRILL: One and three. I think it's more likely that either he concocted this on his own or had an accomplice and they said, you know, this is going to spook people out, this is going to frighten them, let's go in there and try to get some money.

O'BRIEN: Yes, but he's strapped to a bomb and then he dies. I mean in some ways the case is so weird, it wasn't just sort of a ploy. To me, there is some resonance of truth in his story because it's so strange.

BERRILL: Sure.

O'BRIEN: I mean it's way out there. Why do you think it's not real?

BERRILL: Well, it would seem so, but if you were on a sort of in a desperate place in life, if you can imagine a place where you're at the end of your rope and you say, you know, I need a few bucks, I'm willing to do anything possible to get that money, and if I fail or if I'm cornered by the police rather than go to a psychiatric facility or be put in jail, I'm just going to pull the plug, you can imagine that scenario. And it's awful and it's desperate, but I can imagine that.

O'BRIEN: I read that you had a case that was similar to this one, which is odd in and of itself.

BERRILL: Sure.

O'BRIEN: Tell me about that case and what happened.

BERRILL: Well, a case that I saw several years ago, a fellow went into a bank here in New York to try to rob it. And then when he was caught, similarly, he claimed that someone had taken him off the street and had put a bomb in his pocket and he was trying to lay the crime off on strangers who just kind of randomly chose him from a sidewalk, had him walk into the bank. He was unsuccessful, obviously caught.

O'BRIEN: Did he have a bomb or any kind of weapon on him?

BERRILL: It was baloney. It turned out to be baloney. So in this sense he did his time in jail, came out, but stuck to the story. There was almost like a delusional component to way he talked about this.

O'BRIEN: It wasn't me.

BERRILL: It wasn't me, even after doing the jail time. So, you know, it's been thought of. You know, people have done this before.

O'BRIEN: There was a report about a weapon that the FBI has been talking about and been hedging about the description. So I first want to play you a little bit of an interview that Bill Hemmer did yesterday with the FBI special agent who's in charge of this investigation.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEN MCCABE, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, we're not going to say that it was a gun. He had another weapon and we may release later in the week what exactly the type of weapon it was. It was a little bit unique. And we may release that information for, also for the public to see what he was carrying and maybe that may help with this investigation.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: That's a rather intriguing answer. Are you saying it was not a gun?

MCCABE: Well, it's not what people traditionally think of as a gun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Once again, a story that's strange seems to get even stranger. Why not come out and say here's what the weapon was, everybody take a look? Why the hedging?

BERRILL: Well, two possibilities. One is that they didn't want to give people ideas -- here's a new, neat, you know, weapon you can build from the Internet, so we get a bunch of people out there that are, to use the term copycat, who say, you know, I'll do something similar. Or they really have a lead as to who might have been involved. If we go with scenario two, that is, somebody actually scooped this pizza guy up and put a bomb on him, then, you know, they don't want to tip their hand, I guess, and let people know who they're closing in on.

So there's both possibilities.

O'BRIEN: Yes, it seems like a world of possibilities in this case.

BERRILL: Yes. Yes.

O'BRIEN: N.G. Berrill, thanks for clarifying some of them.

BERRILL: Sure.

O'BRIEN: It's going to be interesting to see in the end how this all turns out.

BERRILL: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com