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Lou Dobbs Tonight

United Nations Votes to Lift Sanctions Against Libya; New Army Vehicles Vulnerable?

Aired September 12, 2003 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Striking out: The Army's newest armored vehicle doesn't have enough armor to protect troops, and it may be impossible to fix it. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre will report.
The hunt for Osama bin Laden: President Bush says the FBI and CIA are doing a much better job. A former director of the CIA has his own assessment. Robert Gates joins us.

A patriot's act: A Marine Corps veteran is tonight in danger of losing his home because he flies an American flag in his front yard. George Andres joins us tonight from Jupiter, Florida.

And the man in black a dead. Country music legend Johnny Cash has died after a career that panned half a century and reached across generations, with hits like "Ring of Fire" and "I Walk the Line."

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, September 12. Here now, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

"Stand up straight. You made history." With those words, President Bush today thanked the men and women of the 3rd Infantry Division, the unit that led the assault against Baghdad; 16,000 troops served of the 3rd Infantry served in Iraq; 40 of them did not return home. The president called upon U.S. allies to help build a democratic Iraq. Mr. Bush said, free nations cannot be neutral in the fight between civilization and chaos.

Senior White House correspondent John King is with the president and joins me now -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, that emotional visit, the president and the troops of the 3rd Infantry Division earlier today at Fort Stewart, Georgia, capping a week that began, you will recall, with a nationally televised address in which he made clear the deployment in Iraq would be a long one and that he would need some $87 billion to pay for it and operations in Afghanistan in the next year.

As you noted, it was the 3rd I.D. They led the sweep into Baghdad on that day when the statue of Saddam Hussein fell, Mr. Bush applauding them for their heroism today, thanking them for what he said was a critical role in the war on terrorism and a critical role in helping to stabilize the Mideast, but also a very tone in this speech. Remember, four months ago, the president stood on the deck of an aircraft carrier under a sign that said, "mission accomplished."

A much more sober message from the president today at Fort Stewart.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This undertaking is difficult and it is costly. Yet, it is worthy of our country and it is critical to our security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: And as Mr. Bush thanked those U.S. troops for their role in the war, he also noted that Secretary of State Powell this weekend begins in earnest the diplomacy aimed at trying to get more international help, Secretary Powell trying to negotiate the wording of a new United Nations Security Council resolution.

To hear the president characterize it, he believes other nations around the world have an obligation to help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: No free nation can be neutral in the fight between civilization and chaos. Terrorists in Iraq have attacked representatives of the civilized world. And opposing them and defeating them must be the cause of the civilized world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: But today's visit also, in some ways, a tearful and painful reminder to the president that, even if he gets those 15,000 additional international troops, it will be U.S. forces who will carry the overwhelming burden in Iraq for the year and perhaps more to come.

The president's budget envisions perhaps 110,000 troops in Iraq this time next year. And before leaving Fort Stewart, Lou, the president spent time in private with the family members of 11 of those Army fallen soldiers who did not return -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, thank you -- John King, senior White House correspondent.

More than 100,000 U.S. troops are still in Iraq. They're fighting a war against radical Islamists and insurgents. Today, two soldiers and at least 10 other people were killed in Iraq. Those soldiers died in a firefight during a raid on a house in Ramadi, located west of Baghdad. Seven other soldiers were wounded.

U.S. troops in Fallujah today killed nine Iraqi police and security guards in one of the worst friendly-fire incidents since the end of major combat operations. A Jordanian soldier guarding a Jordanian field hospital in Fallujah was also killed. The dead Iraqis were chasing gunmen who had attacked a police station. And in Baghdad today, a gun battle broke out in the city's center when police chased a gang of carjackers. That battle lasted about 45 minutes. Police arrested three suspects.

The Army plans to deploy a new type of armored vehicle to Iraq later this year. It's called the Stryker. The Stryker is a wheeled troop carrier. It's designed to carry soldiers to the battlefield at much faster speeds than existing vehicles. But the Stryker may not have enough armor to protect troops inside.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the exclusive report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just this week, the Army's new wheeled vehicle called the Stryker got a vote of confidence from the secretary of defense, who's pushing the Army to become a lighter, more mobile force.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The Stryker is alive and well in America.

MCINTYRE: With a price tag of more than $1.2 million each, critics charge, the Stryker is an overpriced, overweight high-tech death trap.

VICTOR O'REILLY, DEFENSE CONSULTANT: All the high-tech in the world will not protect you if your armor does not stop the RPG. You will die. It's very, very simple.

MCINTYRE: RPGs, rocket-propelled grenades, have been deadly in recent attacks against U.S. convoys in Iraq. Unarmored Humvees are especially vulnerable. But only really heavy armor, Bradley Fighting Vehicles and Abrams tanks, can take an RPG hit and keep going.

In order for a Stryker and its up to 11-person crew to survive an RPG, it will have to be fitted with what's called slat armor, a sort of bird cage that causes the grenade to detonate prematurely. And even that's not 100 percent.

O'REILLY: It's not very effective. It leaves the top entirely vulnerable to RPGs. And it leaves the wheel wells entirely vulnerable to RPGs.

MCINTYRE: Defenders, including the contractor General Dynamics, argues, Stryker is not a tank and shouldn't be compared to one. And that optional 5,000-pound armor will be available next year that bolts on and can protect against RPGs. But the Army plans to dispatch the first Strykers to Iraq later this year, now that it's resolved questions about whether it's German-made armor can even stop small- arms fire.

LT. COL. JOE PIEK, U.S. ARMY: No Stryker vehicles from here will deploy until all armor plates are 100 percent satisfactory. Safety is paramount. MCINTYRE: This week, the Chinese newspaper "Sing Tao Daily" mocked the Stryker in a story headlined "U.S. Ace Armor Carrier Has Flaws."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, the Army insists, no armored vehicle provides full protection against RPG and that the Stryker is still far superior to the armored personnel carriers and Humvees currently used by U.S. troops in Iraq.

And army leaders vehemently deny any notion that they're giving up too much in protection in the Army's pursuit to become a lighter, faster force -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Secretary of State Colin Powell today called the Israeli and Palestinian foreign ministers to say the United States opposes the expulsion of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Israel says it will remove Yasser Arafat from Palestinian territories, though it did not say how or when it would take the action. Arafat says he will resist any effort to remove him from his headquarters in the West Bank town of Ramallah.

The United Nations today voted to lift sanctions against Libya. They were imposed after the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988; 270 people were killed. Today's vote means Libya will pay the family of each victim as much as $10 million. But there is a higher price to be paid.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The money is to be paid, Libya literally buying its way out of U.N. sanctions. The United States didn't vote. It abstained, but managed to sum up some outrage over Libya, nonetheless.

Libya is actively pursuing a broad range of WMD and is seeking ballistic missiles. In threat efforts, it is receiving foreign assistance, including from countries that sponsor terrorism.

PILGRIM: The Flynn, who lost a son in the bombing in Lockerbie, were not satisfied with what amounts to blood money.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our quest has always been for justice, to find out who did this, why they did it, and to hope that it never happens to another family. Do we care about the financials of this? No, frankly, we don't. That was never our battle.

PILGRIM: Libya is still on the list of countries that sponsor terrorism, along with Iran, Sudan, Cuba, North Korea and Syria. France also abstained from voting, not over any high principles, but because of money. France felt Libya should have paid more money to French victims of another bombing.

Some argue that Moammar Gadhafi is trying to improve Libya's image with the world community and is making cosmetic changes. But that outrages many experts.

JONATHAN SCHANZER, WASHINGTON INST. FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: If you look at Libya's record in the last couple of years, they have provided some $20 million to the Abu Sayyaf group in the Philippines. They provided some aid to the Taliban over the late 1990s. They even helped some Taliban fighters repatriate after the attacks on Afghanistan. And more recently, they were involved in at least securing a hostage release from an Algerian group that was holding 14 European hostages.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Now, despite the U.N. move, the United States is still keeping its own restrictions on Libya in place. But many are calling for more investigation into Libya's so-called charities believed to support terrorism -- Lou.

DOBBS: And the United States representative saying that this country is seeking weapons of mass destruction, seeking further support from other countries. And yet the United States abstained in this vote.

PILGRIM: They abstained. I guess the thinking was, get money to the families and pursue the terrorism on a separate course. But that's what happened.

DOBBS: What an extraordinary example of world leadership of the United States on this issue. That's just utter hypocrisy.

PILGRIM: There were two abstentions, the United States and France, in today's vote.

DOBBS: Kitty Pilgrim, thank you.

The International Atomic Energy Agency today gave Iran a deadline of October 31 to answer questions about its nuclear program. The agency said Iran must prove it does not have a secret nuclear weapons program by that date. Iran could face economic sanctions if it fails to comply. Iran responded by accusing the United States of preparing to invade Iran.

Up next: The most powerful storm to hit the Atlantic in years is tonight headed toward land. Max Mayfield, who is the director of the National Hurricane Center, joins us.

And "Heroes." In our feature series tonight, one soldier who made history in Iraq now looks to make a future for himself and his family as a civilian. Casey Wian will have his story.

And a patriot's act lands him in court. And tonight, he is fighting for his home. George Andres is a Marine veteran. He wants to fly a flag at his home. He joins us next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Coming up next: taken to court for flying the American flag in front of his own home. You're probably thinking, not in this country. Well, think again. George Andres is a former Marine. And that is exactly what is happening to him. He is our guest tonight.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: One of the most powerful storms of the past century is churning away tonight in the Atlantic Ocean. It's Hurricane Isabel. It's a Category 5 storm now. It has sustained winds of over 140 miles an hour.

And we are joined now by Max Mayfield -- he's the director of the National Hurricane Center -- to tell us what we can expect and what is going on.

Max, thanks for being here.

This is an extraordinarily powerful storm. What is your judgment right now about its course?

MAX MAYFIELD, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER: OK.

Well, you're absolutely right about it being a very, very powerful hurricane. We don't have that many Category 5 hurricanes. But the important thing is not what's happening right now. The only thing that really counts is where it makes landfall and how strong it is at landfall. We did go back and look back to about 1947. And we've had 20 Category 5 hurricanes in that period.

Not very many of them remained a Category 5 hurricane down about 30 hours. So I would expect to see this hurricane weaken, but we're still forecasting it to be a Category 3 hurricane or at least a major hurricane for the next three to five days.

On the graph behind me, you'll see our forecast track. We think, by Monday afternoon, because it's moving so slowly, it will still be about 330 miles north of Hispaniola. And by Wednesday afternoon, it will be somewhere here in the northeast to the northernmost Bahamas. And then we'll just have to wait and see how the steering currents set up to see whether it continues to move towards the southeast or it turns more northward and goes up along the East Coast.

The really good news is that it's so slow-moving that everybody has the weekend to go ahead and look over their hurricane plans and at least know what they would do if the hurricane does head toward their community.

DOBBS: It's early, as you say. It sounds like this is going to take some time to develop. Your best judgment is right now that it will weaken to a Category 5? How confident are you in that?

MAYFIELD: Well, we think it will weaken from a Category 5 down to probably a Category 3 within the next five-day period. But that's still nothing to ignore. I mean, that is still a very powerful hurricane.

So people do need to monitor this very, very carefully. We have learned there's a very good reason why we don't go beyond the five-day forecast. There are a lot of things that can change in the steering currents. And the steering currents are so weak with this hurricane. That's why it's moving so slowly. We almost learned to expect some surprises.

DOBBS: Max Mayfield, we appreciate it. And we'll be checking in with you for further guidance on this storm as it develops.

MAYFIELD: Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center.

Coming up next here: how not to reform U.S. intelligence operations. Robert Gates, former CIA director, his assessment. He's next.

And our feature series tonight, "Heroes." One soldier returned safely home from Iraq to begin a difficult journey back to civilian life. Casey Wian will have his report.

And rewarding -- rewriting, rather, the rule book, Vanderbilt University's shocking steps to clean up college sports. It's one of the cleanest programs in history, but it's setting the example.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The CIA today said it's growing more confident that an audiotape released this week of Osama bin Laden is in fact the al Qaeda leader. Officials say more analysis suggests the voice is probably not definitely bin Laden. The CIA earlier confirmed that another voice on the tape is indeed that of bin Laden's chief deputy. Investigators still are not certain when that tape was recorded.

President Bush, earlier this week, said the nation's intelligence-gathering has improved greatly in the two years since September 11.

Robert Gates serve as CIA director under the first President Bush and deputy director under President Ronald Reagan. He's now the president of Texas A&M University and joins us from College Station, Texas, tonight.

Good to have you with us.

ROBERT GATES, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Thank you.

DOBBS: Your assessment now. Would you agree that U.S. military operations have -- intelligence operations have improved over the course of two years sufficiently?

GATES: Well, I think that they have -- there has been considerable improvement and a lot of restructuring and changes and improvements in collaboration among the agencies in Washington.

Clearly, the creation of the Department of Homeland Security has fostered a good deal more cooperation. And so I think there has been a lot of progress. To say it's sufficient probably is going to far.

DOBBS: And amongst the proposals out there right now and gaining some currency in Washington is the idea of an intelligence czar. What do you think of the idea?

GATES: Well, I think it's a bad idea.

We have experience with a czar in the White House on the national drug problem. And the problem is, you get somebody that doesn't have control over agencies, personnel or dollars, and they're really very weak. And a big part of the intelligence budget is in the Defense Department, about 85 percent of it, historically. And so, unless the secretary of defense was prepared to relinquish control in the budgets of those agencies, such as the National Security Agency and others, to this national intelligence czar or director, whatever you want to call it, the person would really be very weak.

And what's more, the suggestions say that the czar should not lead any particular intelligence agency, such as the CIA. So you would end up, I think, with somebody with no troops, no money, and no power.

DOBBS: And we, as you suggest, have seen some example of how well that works.

Let me ask you this. Military leaders in Iraq are still saying that they want better intelligence, demanding better intelligence. Are you surprised that intelligence still remains an issue, a need, after two years both in Iraq and the Middle East in particular?

GATES: No, it's not surprising at all.

Intelligence is never going to be perfect and a commander is never going be happy as long as there's any uncertainty on lack of information on virtually everything he or she wants to know. The question is whether the collaboration has improved, whether the level of support has improved. And I think most observers would agree that it has, and significantly. In fact, we saw in Afghanistan a degree of collaboration, even operationally, between the military and intelligence that really has not existed since early in the Vietnam War.

So I think there's been a lot of progress. They're still making changes. They're still trying to tweak things, improve them. And, frankly, I think that kind of incremental change at this point is where our attention ought to be focused.

DOBBS: Reports this week that the FBI and other agencies have been unsuccessful in infiltrating the al Qaeda, saying that they need to take new tacks. What would you say about any intelligence agency -- and now the FBI carries out that role domestically under -- in this new world of ours -- that we cannot infiltrate a known enemy?

GATES: First of all, most of these terrorist cells are relatively small. Very often, the people who are in them are related to one another. So placing an agent inside one of those cells is far more difficult than the armchair generals or armchair experts would have you believe.

It's sort of on a par with finding Osama or finding Saddam. It's easy to sit back and say how easy it ought to be to catch them. But in reality, it's very different. We saw that in Panama, when we couldn't find Noriega, and so on. We had problems penetrating terrorist cells in Lebanon in the mid-1980s, when we were trying to find the hostages being held there. So this is all a lot more complicated.

The other thing that you have to take into account is that most of the people in these cells are murderers. And you have to prove your bona fides in order to be able to get in there. And I think that there are still some qualms in Congress and elsewhere about whether we ought to deal with people like that. And I think that issue probably hasn't been resolved yet.

DOBBS: Robert Gates, as always, good to have you with us. We appreciate you coming by.

GATES: Thank you very much.

DOBBS: Coming up next: A former Marine is taken to court for displaying the American flag at his home. George Andres will join us next to share his incredible story.

And newsmakers: the stories that have a direct effect on your life and mine. We'll be joined by the editors of this country's top business magazines next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Is there a house so fancy or a lawn so manicured that a U.S. flag flying over it detracts from the value of the neighborhood? Such a thing couldn't happen in this country, could it?

Well, it's happening in Jupiter, Florida. Marine veteran George Andres is in danger of losing his home tonight because he flies an American flag in his front yard. His homeowner's association prohibited flagpoles. The courts have agreed and say the association can foreclose on his home to collect legal fees.

George Andres joins us now from Jupiter, Florida. George, good to have you with us.

GEORGE ANDRES, FORMER MARINE: Good afternoon.

DOBBS: This is a remarkable story. You've been fighting this for how long now?

ANDRES: Since 1999.

DOBBS: And what is the position of the homeowner's association? Why is it that a flag is so detrimental to their community?

ANDRES: Well, first they said that it was going to cost more to cut the grass around the pole, which is kind of funny. And then they told me that the flagpole was going to take away from the value of the property.

And I said, well, then we should be able to take away all the trees around here, because they're the same as the pole. And my pole is a portable poll. And the state government says I can do it.

DOBBS: The state government says you can do it. The courts say you can't. In fact, you're in danger of being foreclosed upon. Governor Jeb Bush has come to your assistance. The Florida attorney general has done so. Why are you in this situation tonight?

ANDRES: Because judges don't want to go by what the state statutes say. And the judge who found against me on the foreclosure is adding a new bracket to the state law, the Constitution. And I don't know how he's doing it. But the state attorney general, Charlie Crist, is going to go into court next week and try and find out.

DOBBS: Well, you have served in the U.S. military, a former Marine. You have neighbors. You love your country. You obviously love your neighborhood and your community. What do the men and women there with whom you talk and live say to you?

ANDRES: Well, my neighbors all love my flagpole. In fact, 15 of them filed suit against the homeowner's association for using their money against a fruitful suit.

DOBBS: And, again, where's the mayor of the city of Jupiter, Florida? Where is the city council? Where in the world is your local government?

ANDRES: Well, the local government doesn't want to get involved, because this is a homeowner's association.

And the homeowner's association has got its own rules. And the city of Jupiter has its rules. And my flagpole, according to their rules, is perfectly legal. It's a -- their law says 21-foot flagpole, and I only have a 20-foot flagpole.

DOBBS: And what has...

ANDRES: So the town just.... DOBBS: Go ahead, George. Go ahead, George.

ANDRES: The -- and the town says that they think it's absolutely ridiculous that this whole thing is going on. But it's above and beyond their jurisdiction.

DOBBS: Your mortgage, I presume, is paid up? The foreclosure -- the homeowner's association has the power to literally foreclose on your home?

ANDRES: Well, they're going to attempt to. It has a mortgage on it. The mortgage company would have to be paid off and I really don't know what's going to happen. I'm just hoping that we're going to get help from the state government and I hope that we're going to be able to persuade these judges that the state law clearly says what it says, and that the judge doesn't write into the law what's not written in the law.

DOBBS: Well, you have the support of Governor Bush. You have the support of the state attorney general. It's hard to imagine that a -- a man or a woman in this country cannot put an American flag on his or her lawn if they want to. That a homeowner's association would have power that supersedes that of the state legislature, the state attorney general, the local government, is mind boggling. How far are you going to take this?

ANDRES: We're going to take this as far as we have to. Have my attorney Barry Silver (ph), who's doing this pro bono, and he's with me all the way. He says he'll take it to the United States Supreme Court if we have to. But the United States Supreme Court has ruled on a case very similar to this in 1995, and said anything that you do on your private property with flags and signs are an expression of your feelings, which is covered under the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which I feel is my right to put it up underneath the Constitution, even though the state of Florida has rules that say you can put it up, the top line is the Constitution.

DOBBS: And George, we -- we want to wish you all the luck in the world in this process. We hope that reason prevails in Florida. I can't imagine why you are still even having to -- to bear this battle as a burden there. We appreciate you taking the time. As I say, we wish you all of the best of luck.

ANDRES: No problem. I just hope that the federal government turns around and passes the addendum to the flag law that we're trying to get put in. And it will help everybody in the United States who wants to fly their flags.

DOBBS: George Andres, Jupiter, Florida, thanks for being with us.

We'd like to hear your opinion on the subject. "Do you think every American has the right to fly the flag in his or her frontyard? Yes or no?" Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later in the show. As we reported earlier, President Bush paid a visit to the 3rd Infantry Division in Ft. Stewart, Georgia today. Tonight, in our special feature "Heroes" -- we feature heroes on this broadcast every Friday -- we look at sergeant Kevin Hilton. He's a member of the 3rd Infantry Division.

Sergeant Hilton deployed in Kuwait, and then Iraq a year ago. Now he's preparing to leave the military.

Casey Wian looks at the challenges Sergeant Hilton and his growing family face as they return to civilian life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sergeant Kevin Hilton savors the little things -- picking his kids up at school, the rhythms of family life.

He's been to Grenada, Kosovo, Bosnia, Hungary. But none kept him away as long as his mission in Kuwait, and Iraq.

SGT. 1ST CLASS KEVIN HILTON, U.S. ARMY: I deployed from Ft. Stewart the 21st of September for normal rotation to Kuwait and -- which was six months. And then, probably about a -- three, four days before that, deployment was supposed to end. We got word, Hey, get ready, because you're going to war.

WIAN: It would 11 months before the husband and father of three would return.

K. HILTON: It felt wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. I could explore every inch of my house. I didn't have to wait three hours in line to go to the PX. I could use my own bathroom. I have my own phone. TV. My own air conditioner.

WIAN: Hilton's wife, Tina, has her own reasons for being happy he's home.

TINA HILTON, WIFE: When your 6-year-old asks you if your daddy's still alive, I'm looking -- I'm glad I won't have to answer those questions anymore.

WIAN: Still, the transition can be challenging.

T. HILTON: There's these routines that you had with your children while he was gone, and now he's here and routines are changing. And it's like, OK, I wanted him here, but everything's changing so fast. And you're trying to keep up with it because you're trying to ease him back into your world.

WIAN: With the war and a homecoming behind them, the Hiltons now face another transition -- to civilian life.

K. HILTON: I'm going to retire, and then we're going to move to South Carolina. I'll get a little job. And I'll continue family life. T. HILTON: I have been a military dependent my entire life. I was born in an Army hospital, I went from being my dad's dependent to being my husband's dependent. I think I have two civilian friends, you know, that don't have anything to do with the military. Everything I know is based in the military.

WIAN: After 20 years in the army, Sergeant Hilton knows it's time to give back the time he's lost to his family.

K. HILTON: They can't take it from me again. I have done my service to my country. And, you know, I've had a lot of good experiences. And I'll just take this into the civilian world.

WIAN: Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Tonight's thought, on what makes a hero. "A hero is someone who has given his other her life to bigger than oneself." Author Joseph Campbell.

Coming up next, Christine Romans will have the latest word on the New York Stock Exchange Chairman Richard Grasso's battle to stave off a growing storm of criticism over his massive pay package and a sweeping investigation into the mutual fund industry.

That story, a great deal more, is still ahead here.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The United States and Europe are locked in a bitter battle over food. Europe wants the exclusive rights to the names of 41 different foods because of the European origin. Now the EU has taken its beef to the World Trade Organization.

Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At Krufman's (ph) Deli, they're used to serving up lunchtime favorites. Salami sandwich sounds good. So does a chicken parmesean.

But household names like parma ham, salami and Swiss -- the Europeans say those name belong to them and they want them back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's what I say to them -- baloney.

SYLVESTER: But, ah, baloney belongs to Bologna, Italy. The European Union is asking the World Trade Organization, meeting in Cancun, Mexico to establish a registry of foods wines, beers and other products from their countries. They accuse the rest of the world of brand theft, riding high on their hog. So they say, no more mozzarella cheese from Vermont or burgundy wine that's not from Burgundy, France.

The Europeans don't just want the original names, but any translations or Anglocized versions. And forget Swedish style on Fontina cheese if it's not from Sweden.

But food industry experts say the Europeans can just take this idea and stuff it.

MICHAEL DIEGEL, GROCERY MANUFACTURERS OF AMERICA: I think the Europeans forget that a lot of these products were brought over by their own ancestors who immigrated to this country, including people like my wife's family, who were meatpackers and they knew how to make these products and knew the processes and when he got here began to make the foods they were used to.

SYLVESTER (on camera): Let's just imagine for a moment that this registry was actually established. It would mean that American companies would have to go back, repackage, relabel and rebrand their products. That would cost billions of dollars.

Kraft parmesean cheese, Oscar Mayer bologna and General Foods Swiss mocha coffee would all be facing a major identity crisis.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it is absurd. I think it is factitious. I think it's puerile. I think it's frivolous. I think we have much larger issues to confront.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we should leave well enough alone. It's been working all these years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: The only name the people we spoke to would be will willing to give up is french fries since they say we've already started calling them freedom fries -- Lou.

DOBBS: I haven't and I'm not about to.

This is a remarkable -- it's a very serious story, even though it's ludicrous in every respect.

SYLVESTER: Exactly, because the Europeans are saying that the American companies and other companies from different parts of the world are making millions off of their products and they say that they should be entitled to it.

DOBBS: All right. Lisa Sylvester, thank you.

On Wall Street today, stocks finished the day and week little changed. The Dow adding almost 12 points. Nasdaq almost up 9. The S&P nearly 15. The real excitement, not on the trading floor, and that's where Christine Romans was.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely Lou. A pretty much unchanged week for stocks, but a lot of excitement elsewhere. Not blue chips or tech stocks but in mutual funds. Morning Star, Lou, says Janus funds do not deserve investors' confidence and it is withdrawing its current Janus fund recommendations.

Morning Star's Brian Portinor (ph) says, investors should look outside Janus for investments because Janus put its own profitability it says, ahead of the interest of investors. Strike one, Morning Star says, was poor bear market performance. Strike two, was a series of key management departures. Strike three, Elliott Spitzer's investigation to hedge funds using mutual funds after hours.

Now Morning Star suggests that shareholders in Janus' in house funds consider moving their investments elsewhere. Meanwhile, Bank of America has asked three executives to leave in the wake of that same mutual fund probe -- Lou.

DOBBS: This probe is just beginning, we should point out.

ROMANS: It is. It is.

DOBBS: This is a very serious situation. Christine, thanks. Christine Romans.

We'll have much more on the mutual fund investigation in this week's newsmakers. The editors of the country's premier business magazines will join us to share their views on a host of news developments. And a great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Joining us now are newsmakers, editors of the leading business magazines of this country, Steve Forbes, editor in chief of "Forbes," Rik Kirkland, managing editing of "Fortune," Mark Morrison, manager editor of "Businessweek." And we thank you for being here.

An extraordinary week, the investigation into mutual funds, this is a nasty development -- Steve.

STEVE FORBES, "FORBES": It is, because the industry is vulnerable. Fees are way out of line. They don't have anything to do, many cases with real performance. We have been beating this drum for years. It's no surprise in the aftermath of a stock market bubble that there's going to be real political backlash on it.

RIK KIRKLAND, "FORTUNE": I think, one of the scary things, too is that the industry's had episodes in the past that have become isolated. But with Spitzer on the case and of course the SEC and New York A.G. is not wanting to be behind him again. They're all firing with guns blazing. This is going to be a very wide investigation. So, we'll find out how clean the industry really is.

MARK MORRISON, "BUSINESSWEEK": They're making the same mistakes in governance and lack of transparencies that we've seen too much of in corporate America and the New York stock exchange, et cetera. Investors have choices. They can buy exchange traded funds, all sorts of other ways to invest aside from mutual funds. So the funds need to get their acts together. FORBES: They have one of the most formidable lobbies in Washington. And it may be a case where it was too successful for its own good.

DOBBS: Speaking of, as Mark was, Dick Grasso, chairman of the New York Exchange, this is turning into a firestorm. The members now, special meeting next Thursday. This obviously the New York Stock Exchange management thought they could control, as they have some experience in that, how big is the problem for Dick Grasso?

MORRISON: Firestorm is a polite word for it. It's a huge mess. I think Dick Grasso is probably toast as head of the Exchange and probably should be. This institution has not much to sell except for trust and anybody, any market, electronic market, can match up trades.

The New York Stock Exchange is supposed to be setting an example, establishing trust with the investment community in the United States and around the world and it's lost it. Its credibility is shattered.

KIRKLAND: I agree with that. I also believe that you have to go further than replacing Dick. I think they need to split the regulatory function away from the profit making organization and not have both sitting in one body.

DOBBS: Steve, your thoughts?

FORBES: I think that is going to happen. We are going to get a split. One thing four years ago where that pay package wouldn't have raised an eyebrow four, five years ago. Today it manifestly is a different environment. They're too slow to wake up to it.

KIRKLAND: Wouldn't have raised an eyebrow for a not for profit quasi regulatory organization?

FORBES: Four years ago when the market was booming?

KIRKLAND: If you told me Dick Grasso was going to take home $140 million pay package I would have said, you're out of your mind.

FORBES: You would have been about the only one.

MORRISON: Well in 2001 he made $40 million.

DOBBS: Wait a minute, I can't let Steve Forbes get away with that. You can't mean that you think that that -- even by the standards of the boon that would have been sensible? This is pure, unadulterated greed.

FORBES: I didn't say it was sensible. I said the whole package, four fives years ago, would have probably gotten by.

MORRISON: Maybe we are better off now.

DOBBS: Than?

MORRISON: Than we were four or five years ago. There have been other executives have been overpaid even more money, but I think on a per pound basis, Grasso wins.

DOBBS: On a per pound basis, and also on a profit and risk responsibility basis, it is remarkable.

KIRKLAND: Well, here's the way to think about it.

DOBBS: They don't pay taxes based on a quasi regulatory...

KIRKLAND: For taking home over $200 million at 65 for running an organization that, you know, what last year had a billion in revenue, $28 million in profit and has total shareholder equity of $900 million and you're going to take home over $200 million. That's a pretty big chunk of the pie.

DOBBS: Even by the standards of the boom, Steve. We all have Grasso. He is, in every way, a charming fellow. This is, by any standards, this organization is supposed to be setting the standards corporate America and it is making it worse.

FORBES: What made it worse was they took the lead. A year ago, when the corporate scandals came along they took the lead in saying we've got to improve corporate governance. That is where he got hoisted by his own petard.

DOBBS: Well Grasso said quote, unquote, "It starts at the top."

MORRISON: The CEO and boards, the most important thing they have to have is judgment and this is such a terrible absence of judgment to have gone along with this thing. And we hear today, singing off on this pay package and not even knowing what the details are.

(CROSSTALK)

FORBES: That is where the real scandal is, not Dick Grasso, he wants to negotiate as much as he can. Where was the board. Where were the members. They let it happen. Karl McColl (ph) admitted today in the paper, he didn't even know what the package was when he signed off on it.

DOBBS: A couple of things, one thing we can be reassured, there are now 2 people in jail after 2 years of corporate scandals. Are you encouraged Steve?

FORBES: Well, there's an election coming up and there'll probably be some more before the elections over.

DOBBS: Well, at this rate, what would you say would be the number? There are what, 89 people who have been charged in the course of almost 2 years. Two are in jail. When is the justice department going to get cracking, Rik?

KIRKLAND: A little bit lax here. They're going to be making progress over the course of the next year. I think this Enron case, in particular, the guy plead guilty to the accounting fraud. The jury didn't find it, but he plead, so that sets a precedent that they use with some of the other ones.

FORBES: There's also a learning curve here. These cases, were cases prosecutors never wanted to touch in the past, because there was no glamour in it. No headlines in past in it. Hard to do. A lot of work. Now the resources are there, so they are getting up to speed. Slow, but it's going to happen.

MORRISON: They go out in the boat every day and they come back and there are no big fish in the catch. It's just these mullets that they seem to be able to throw some charge at.

DOBBS: Iraq, the Middle East, Bush's ratings declining, how significant is it all in terms of the political prospects for both President Bush and the nine or 10 Democratic contenders next year?

MORRISON: It's the big political question. You know, the economy's cooking along pretty well. The Democrats thought that was going to be a good issue for them. It's looking less and less so. Iraq and the rest of the terrorism war and Bush's -- Bush's strategies there are going to be the big issue, and it's going to be very ugly, I think, going through this process, because every action is going to be second-guessed and it's going to be nasty.

KIRKLAND: The unity we had after 9/11 went away a long time ago, and it's just going to get worse. But I mean, I think the Democrats have to be careful not to bank on things getting worse. I mean, it could get a little better here. And they have to be careful in the tone of criticism that they use, because...

FORBES: Yes, because the economy, ironically, is going to save the president. In terms of Iraq, if he does again what he did on Sunday night in terms of laying out why this is the real centerpiece of the war on terror, I think he's going to carry the people on.

DOBBS: The war on terror, foreign policy, this administration today abstaining in a vote to remove sanctions from Libya, while keeping it on our terror list, and apparently motivated entirely by the paycheck from Libya, both in the case of France, which abstained and the United States. Is this not reprehensible by any standard of conduct in foreign policy, period?

FORBES: Period. And that's why the State Department is talking about needing an overhaul. There's a department that needs a real overhaul. That came right out of State, that kind of mentality. Wrong.

DOBBS: Markets, the economy, we're in good shape, Mark?

MORRISON: I think we're in good shape. Earning keep clicking along. And if we get 5 percent growth or so in the next quarter or two, their earnings are going to pop even further. That's going to help stocks again. We're certainly going to have a correction at some point. They've gone straight up. But I'm very optimistic about the markets.

DOBBS: I don't have to ask Steve Forbes if he's optimistic; he's already on record.

(CROSSTALK)

KIRKLAND: Generally optimistic myself. I think yes, the big -- the move will be up, not down.

DOBBS: All right. Gentlemen, Steve Forbes, Rik Kirkland, Mark Morrison, as always, good to see you.

Turning to other news tonight, and in this case, sad news. Country music legend Johnny Cash is dead. He died early today. He was 71 years old. Sean Callebs has more now on the remarkable life of the Man in Black.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNNY CASH, ENTERTAINER (singing): I hear the train a coming.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Johnny Cash spent the five decades making music with his sobering blend of baritone and guitar.

Born in 1932, Cash grew up on an Arkansas cotton farm singing Baptist hymns. But Johnny wasn't born with that voice.

CASH: I was a high tenor until I was 17, and I was cutting wood one day with my father with a cross cut saw, and I came home that afternoon, my voice dropped immediately.

CALLEBS: He picked up guitar during a stint in the Air Force and released his first single in 1955. Fame came quickly with songs such as "I Walk the Line," "Folsom Prison Blues," and "Ring of Fire," a love song he co-wrote with his second wife, June Carter Cash.

By 1969, the Man in Black was the best-selling recording artist alive, even outselling the Beatles.

He won 11 Grammys, along with a Grammy legend and lifetime achievement award.

CASH: If legend fits, I'm very happy with it.

CALLEBS: But it wasn't always sunny skies. In his autobiography, Cash spoke frankly about the demise of his first marriage and long-term drug addiction.

Despite his admittedly self-destructive behavior, the father of five kept making music, collaborating with the best in his field and maintaining the affection of fans, attracted by his soulful lyrics and straight-up style.

Whether he was singing about a love gone bad or a life ill-spent, Johnny Cash was admired by generations of fans for simply telling it like it is.

(END VIDEOTAPE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll -- do you think every American has the right to fly the American flag in his or her front yard? Ninety-two percent of you say yes; 8 percent say no.

This week, Vanderbilt University announced it's doing away with its athletic department. Intercollegiate sports will be grouped together with intramural teams and other student activities, under one administrator. The aim is to better integrate sports into the fabric of academic and student life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS (voice-over): The Vanderbilt Commodores may not have the best record.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he tackles him at the 10-yard line.

DOBBS: Or the most famous players, but the university is far better known for excellence in the classroom than performance on the field or court, and it's leading by example to clean up college sports.

GORDON GEE, CHANCELLOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: This is not backing away from our commitment to athletics. It's backing away from our commitment to isolation.

And by integrating, I think what we do is we create a very powerful model, which says that the word "student athlete" is not an oxymoron.

DOBBS: In a year that has seen college athletics scarred by everything from cheating and robbery to murder, critics say college sports, coaches and athletes are out of control. Too many acting as if they were above the law.

The NCAA, which has struggled with how to deal with college athletes, applauded Vanderbilt's move. In a statement, the NCAA president said, "this is more than an experiment. It is a major shift in the collegiate sports culture."

Vanderbilt's Southeastern Conference is taking a wait-and-see attitude, however, towards the overhaul, saying what's good for Vanderbilt may not be good for everyone. And Vanderbilt is one of the few universities with the reputation necessary to take the lead on this important cultural shift.

JAKE CROUTHAMEL, ATHLETIC DIRECTOR, SYRACUSE UNIV.: If there's a model out there for Division 1A Athletics, Vanderbilt comes very close to that model.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And it's a remarkable step for a university that has had one minor NCAA infraction over the course of the past half century. That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Al Franken is out with a new book called "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them." That book really upset Fox News. Made me think he might be an interesting guest. He'll be here Monday. And we'll begin our series of special reports next week on extraordinary careers, how to achieve success and satisfaction in your work and in your life. Please join us.

For all of us here, good night from New York. Have a great weekend.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Army Vehicles Vulnerable?>


Aired September 12, 2003 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Striking out: The Army's newest armored vehicle doesn't have enough armor to protect troops, and it may be impossible to fix it. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre will report.
The hunt for Osama bin Laden: President Bush says the FBI and CIA are doing a much better job. A former director of the CIA has his own assessment. Robert Gates joins us.

A patriot's act: A Marine Corps veteran is tonight in danger of losing his home because he flies an American flag in his front yard. George Andres joins us tonight from Jupiter, Florida.

And the man in black a dead. Country music legend Johnny Cash has died after a career that panned half a century and reached across generations, with hits like "Ring of Fire" and "I Walk the Line."

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, September 12. Here now, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

"Stand up straight. You made history." With those words, President Bush today thanked the men and women of the 3rd Infantry Division, the unit that led the assault against Baghdad; 16,000 troops served of the 3rd Infantry served in Iraq; 40 of them did not return home. The president called upon U.S. allies to help build a democratic Iraq. Mr. Bush said, free nations cannot be neutral in the fight between civilization and chaos.

Senior White House correspondent John King is with the president and joins me now -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, that emotional visit, the president and the troops of the 3rd Infantry Division earlier today at Fort Stewart, Georgia, capping a week that began, you will recall, with a nationally televised address in which he made clear the deployment in Iraq would be a long one and that he would need some $87 billion to pay for it and operations in Afghanistan in the next year.

As you noted, it was the 3rd I.D. They led the sweep into Baghdad on that day when the statue of Saddam Hussein fell, Mr. Bush applauding them for their heroism today, thanking them for what he said was a critical role in the war on terrorism and a critical role in helping to stabilize the Mideast, but also a very tone in this speech. Remember, four months ago, the president stood on the deck of an aircraft carrier under a sign that said, "mission accomplished."

A much more sober message from the president today at Fort Stewart.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This undertaking is difficult and it is costly. Yet, it is worthy of our country and it is critical to our security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: And as Mr. Bush thanked those U.S. troops for their role in the war, he also noted that Secretary of State Powell this weekend begins in earnest the diplomacy aimed at trying to get more international help, Secretary Powell trying to negotiate the wording of a new United Nations Security Council resolution.

To hear the president characterize it, he believes other nations around the world have an obligation to help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: No free nation can be neutral in the fight between civilization and chaos. Terrorists in Iraq have attacked representatives of the civilized world. And opposing them and defeating them must be the cause of the civilized world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: But today's visit also, in some ways, a tearful and painful reminder to the president that, even if he gets those 15,000 additional international troops, it will be U.S. forces who will carry the overwhelming burden in Iraq for the year and perhaps more to come.

The president's budget envisions perhaps 110,000 troops in Iraq this time next year. And before leaving Fort Stewart, Lou, the president spent time in private with the family members of 11 of those Army fallen soldiers who did not return -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, thank you -- John King, senior White House correspondent.

More than 100,000 U.S. troops are still in Iraq. They're fighting a war against radical Islamists and insurgents. Today, two soldiers and at least 10 other people were killed in Iraq. Those soldiers died in a firefight during a raid on a house in Ramadi, located west of Baghdad. Seven other soldiers were wounded.

U.S. troops in Fallujah today killed nine Iraqi police and security guards in one of the worst friendly-fire incidents since the end of major combat operations. A Jordanian soldier guarding a Jordanian field hospital in Fallujah was also killed. The dead Iraqis were chasing gunmen who had attacked a police station. And in Baghdad today, a gun battle broke out in the city's center when police chased a gang of carjackers. That battle lasted about 45 minutes. Police arrested three suspects.

The Army plans to deploy a new type of armored vehicle to Iraq later this year. It's called the Stryker. The Stryker is a wheeled troop carrier. It's designed to carry soldiers to the battlefield at much faster speeds than existing vehicles. But the Stryker may not have enough armor to protect troops inside.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the exclusive report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just this week, the Army's new wheeled vehicle called the Stryker got a vote of confidence from the secretary of defense, who's pushing the Army to become a lighter, more mobile force.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The Stryker is alive and well in America.

MCINTYRE: With a price tag of more than $1.2 million each, critics charge, the Stryker is an overpriced, overweight high-tech death trap.

VICTOR O'REILLY, DEFENSE CONSULTANT: All the high-tech in the world will not protect you if your armor does not stop the RPG. You will die. It's very, very simple.

MCINTYRE: RPGs, rocket-propelled grenades, have been deadly in recent attacks against U.S. convoys in Iraq. Unarmored Humvees are especially vulnerable. But only really heavy armor, Bradley Fighting Vehicles and Abrams tanks, can take an RPG hit and keep going.

In order for a Stryker and its up to 11-person crew to survive an RPG, it will have to be fitted with what's called slat armor, a sort of bird cage that causes the grenade to detonate prematurely. And even that's not 100 percent.

O'REILLY: It's not very effective. It leaves the top entirely vulnerable to RPGs. And it leaves the wheel wells entirely vulnerable to RPGs.

MCINTYRE: Defenders, including the contractor General Dynamics, argues, Stryker is not a tank and shouldn't be compared to one. And that optional 5,000-pound armor will be available next year that bolts on and can protect against RPGs. But the Army plans to dispatch the first Strykers to Iraq later this year, now that it's resolved questions about whether it's German-made armor can even stop small- arms fire.

LT. COL. JOE PIEK, U.S. ARMY: No Stryker vehicles from here will deploy until all armor plates are 100 percent satisfactory. Safety is paramount. MCINTYRE: This week, the Chinese newspaper "Sing Tao Daily" mocked the Stryker in a story headlined "U.S. Ace Armor Carrier Has Flaws."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, the Army insists, no armored vehicle provides full protection against RPG and that the Stryker is still far superior to the armored personnel carriers and Humvees currently used by U.S. troops in Iraq.

And army leaders vehemently deny any notion that they're giving up too much in protection in the Army's pursuit to become a lighter, faster force -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Secretary of State Colin Powell today called the Israeli and Palestinian foreign ministers to say the United States opposes the expulsion of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Israel says it will remove Yasser Arafat from Palestinian territories, though it did not say how or when it would take the action. Arafat says he will resist any effort to remove him from his headquarters in the West Bank town of Ramallah.

The United Nations today voted to lift sanctions against Libya. They were imposed after the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988; 270 people were killed. Today's vote means Libya will pay the family of each victim as much as $10 million. But there is a higher price to be paid.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The money is to be paid, Libya literally buying its way out of U.N. sanctions. The United States didn't vote. It abstained, but managed to sum up some outrage over Libya, nonetheless.

Libya is actively pursuing a broad range of WMD and is seeking ballistic missiles. In threat efforts, it is receiving foreign assistance, including from countries that sponsor terrorism.

PILGRIM: The Flynn, who lost a son in the bombing in Lockerbie, were not satisfied with what amounts to blood money.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our quest has always been for justice, to find out who did this, why they did it, and to hope that it never happens to another family. Do we care about the financials of this? No, frankly, we don't. That was never our battle.

PILGRIM: Libya is still on the list of countries that sponsor terrorism, along with Iran, Sudan, Cuba, North Korea and Syria. France also abstained from voting, not over any high principles, but because of money. France felt Libya should have paid more money to French victims of another bombing.

Some argue that Moammar Gadhafi is trying to improve Libya's image with the world community and is making cosmetic changes. But that outrages many experts.

JONATHAN SCHANZER, WASHINGTON INST. FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: If you look at Libya's record in the last couple of years, they have provided some $20 million to the Abu Sayyaf group in the Philippines. They provided some aid to the Taliban over the late 1990s. They even helped some Taliban fighters repatriate after the attacks on Afghanistan. And more recently, they were involved in at least securing a hostage release from an Algerian group that was holding 14 European hostages.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Now, despite the U.N. move, the United States is still keeping its own restrictions on Libya in place. But many are calling for more investigation into Libya's so-called charities believed to support terrorism -- Lou.

DOBBS: And the United States representative saying that this country is seeking weapons of mass destruction, seeking further support from other countries. And yet the United States abstained in this vote.

PILGRIM: They abstained. I guess the thinking was, get money to the families and pursue the terrorism on a separate course. But that's what happened.

DOBBS: What an extraordinary example of world leadership of the United States on this issue. That's just utter hypocrisy.

PILGRIM: There were two abstentions, the United States and France, in today's vote.

DOBBS: Kitty Pilgrim, thank you.

The International Atomic Energy Agency today gave Iran a deadline of October 31 to answer questions about its nuclear program. The agency said Iran must prove it does not have a secret nuclear weapons program by that date. Iran could face economic sanctions if it fails to comply. Iran responded by accusing the United States of preparing to invade Iran.

Up next: The most powerful storm to hit the Atlantic in years is tonight headed toward land. Max Mayfield, who is the director of the National Hurricane Center, joins us.

And "Heroes." In our feature series tonight, one soldier who made history in Iraq now looks to make a future for himself and his family as a civilian. Casey Wian will have his story.

And a patriot's act lands him in court. And tonight, he is fighting for his home. George Andres is a Marine veteran. He wants to fly a flag at his home. He joins us next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Coming up next: taken to court for flying the American flag in front of his own home. You're probably thinking, not in this country. Well, think again. George Andres is a former Marine. And that is exactly what is happening to him. He is our guest tonight.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: One of the most powerful storms of the past century is churning away tonight in the Atlantic Ocean. It's Hurricane Isabel. It's a Category 5 storm now. It has sustained winds of over 140 miles an hour.

And we are joined now by Max Mayfield -- he's the director of the National Hurricane Center -- to tell us what we can expect and what is going on.

Max, thanks for being here.

This is an extraordinarily powerful storm. What is your judgment right now about its course?

MAX MAYFIELD, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER: OK.

Well, you're absolutely right about it being a very, very powerful hurricane. We don't have that many Category 5 hurricanes. But the important thing is not what's happening right now. The only thing that really counts is where it makes landfall and how strong it is at landfall. We did go back and look back to about 1947. And we've had 20 Category 5 hurricanes in that period.

Not very many of them remained a Category 5 hurricane down about 30 hours. So I would expect to see this hurricane weaken, but we're still forecasting it to be a Category 3 hurricane or at least a major hurricane for the next three to five days.

On the graph behind me, you'll see our forecast track. We think, by Monday afternoon, because it's moving so slowly, it will still be about 330 miles north of Hispaniola. And by Wednesday afternoon, it will be somewhere here in the northeast to the northernmost Bahamas. And then we'll just have to wait and see how the steering currents set up to see whether it continues to move towards the southeast or it turns more northward and goes up along the East Coast.

The really good news is that it's so slow-moving that everybody has the weekend to go ahead and look over their hurricane plans and at least know what they would do if the hurricane does head toward their community.

DOBBS: It's early, as you say. It sounds like this is going to take some time to develop. Your best judgment is right now that it will weaken to a Category 5? How confident are you in that?

MAYFIELD: Well, we think it will weaken from a Category 5 down to probably a Category 3 within the next five-day period. But that's still nothing to ignore. I mean, that is still a very powerful hurricane.

So people do need to monitor this very, very carefully. We have learned there's a very good reason why we don't go beyond the five-day forecast. There are a lot of things that can change in the steering currents. And the steering currents are so weak with this hurricane. That's why it's moving so slowly. We almost learned to expect some surprises.

DOBBS: Max Mayfield, we appreciate it. And we'll be checking in with you for further guidance on this storm as it develops.

MAYFIELD: Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center.

Coming up next here: how not to reform U.S. intelligence operations. Robert Gates, former CIA director, his assessment. He's next.

And our feature series tonight, "Heroes." One soldier returned safely home from Iraq to begin a difficult journey back to civilian life. Casey Wian will have his report.

And rewarding -- rewriting, rather, the rule book, Vanderbilt University's shocking steps to clean up college sports. It's one of the cleanest programs in history, but it's setting the example.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The CIA today said it's growing more confident that an audiotape released this week of Osama bin Laden is in fact the al Qaeda leader. Officials say more analysis suggests the voice is probably not definitely bin Laden. The CIA earlier confirmed that another voice on the tape is indeed that of bin Laden's chief deputy. Investigators still are not certain when that tape was recorded.

President Bush, earlier this week, said the nation's intelligence-gathering has improved greatly in the two years since September 11.

Robert Gates serve as CIA director under the first President Bush and deputy director under President Ronald Reagan. He's now the president of Texas A&M University and joins us from College Station, Texas, tonight.

Good to have you with us.

ROBERT GATES, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Thank you.

DOBBS: Your assessment now. Would you agree that U.S. military operations have -- intelligence operations have improved over the course of two years sufficiently?

GATES: Well, I think that they have -- there has been considerable improvement and a lot of restructuring and changes and improvements in collaboration among the agencies in Washington.

Clearly, the creation of the Department of Homeland Security has fostered a good deal more cooperation. And so I think there has been a lot of progress. To say it's sufficient probably is going to far.

DOBBS: And amongst the proposals out there right now and gaining some currency in Washington is the idea of an intelligence czar. What do you think of the idea?

GATES: Well, I think it's a bad idea.

We have experience with a czar in the White House on the national drug problem. And the problem is, you get somebody that doesn't have control over agencies, personnel or dollars, and they're really very weak. And a big part of the intelligence budget is in the Defense Department, about 85 percent of it, historically. And so, unless the secretary of defense was prepared to relinquish control in the budgets of those agencies, such as the National Security Agency and others, to this national intelligence czar or director, whatever you want to call it, the person would really be very weak.

And what's more, the suggestions say that the czar should not lead any particular intelligence agency, such as the CIA. So you would end up, I think, with somebody with no troops, no money, and no power.

DOBBS: And we, as you suggest, have seen some example of how well that works.

Let me ask you this. Military leaders in Iraq are still saying that they want better intelligence, demanding better intelligence. Are you surprised that intelligence still remains an issue, a need, after two years both in Iraq and the Middle East in particular?

GATES: No, it's not surprising at all.

Intelligence is never going to be perfect and a commander is never going be happy as long as there's any uncertainty on lack of information on virtually everything he or she wants to know. The question is whether the collaboration has improved, whether the level of support has improved. And I think most observers would agree that it has, and significantly. In fact, we saw in Afghanistan a degree of collaboration, even operationally, between the military and intelligence that really has not existed since early in the Vietnam War.

So I think there's been a lot of progress. They're still making changes. They're still trying to tweak things, improve them. And, frankly, I think that kind of incremental change at this point is where our attention ought to be focused.

DOBBS: Reports this week that the FBI and other agencies have been unsuccessful in infiltrating the al Qaeda, saying that they need to take new tacks. What would you say about any intelligence agency -- and now the FBI carries out that role domestically under -- in this new world of ours -- that we cannot infiltrate a known enemy?

GATES: First of all, most of these terrorist cells are relatively small. Very often, the people who are in them are related to one another. So placing an agent inside one of those cells is far more difficult than the armchair generals or armchair experts would have you believe.

It's sort of on a par with finding Osama or finding Saddam. It's easy to sit back and say how easy it ought to be to catch them. But in reality, it's very different. We saw that in Panama, when we couldn't find Noriega, and so on. We had problems penetrating terrorist cells in Lebanon in the mid-1980s, when we were trying to find the hostages being held there. So this is all a lot more complicated.

The other thing that you have to take into account is that most of the people in these cells are murderers. And you have to prove your bona fides in order to be able to get in there. And I think that there are still some qualms in Congress and elsewhere about whether we ought to deal with people like that. And I think that issue probably hasn't been resolved yet.

DOBBS: Robert Gates, as always, good to have you with us. We appreciate you coming by.

GATES: Thank you very much.

DOBBS: Coming up next: A former Marine is taken to court for displaying the American flag at his home. George Andres will join us next to share his incredible story.

And newsmakers: the stories that have a direct effect on your life and mine. We'll be joined by the editors of this country's top business magazines next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Is there a house so fancy or a lawn so manicured that a U.S. flag flying over it detracts from the value of the neighborhood? Such a thing couldn't happen in this country, could it?

Well, it's happening in Jupiter, Florida. Marine veteran George Andres is in danger of losing his home tonight because he flies an American flag in his front yard. His homeowner's association prohibited flagpoles. The courts have agreed and say the association can foreclose on his home to collect legal fees.

George Andres joins us now from Jupiter, Florida. George, good to have you with us.

GEORGE ANDRES, FORMER MARINE: Good afternoon.

DOBBS: This is a remarkable story. You've been fighting this for how long now?

ANDRES: Since 1999.

DOBBS: And what is the position of the homeowner's association? Why is it that a flag is so detrimental to their community?

ANDRES: Well, first they said that it was going to cost more to cut the grass around the pole, which is kind of funny. And then they told me that the flagpole was going to take away from the value of the property.

And I said, well, then we should be able to take away all the trees around here, because they're the same as the pole. And my pole is a portable poll. And the state government says I can do it.

DOBBS: The state government says you can do it. The courts say you can't. In fact, you're in danger of being foreclosed upon. Governor Jeb Bush has come to your assistance. The Florida attorney general has done so. Why are you in this situation tonight?

ANDRES: Because judges don't want to go by what the state statutes say. And the judge who found against me on the foreclosure is adding a new bracket to the state law, the Constitution. And I don't know how he's doing it. But the state attorney general, Charlie Crist, is going to go into court next week and try and find out.

DOBBS: Well, you have served in the U.S. military, a former Marine. You have neighbors. You love your country. You obviously love your neighborhood and your community. What do the men and women there with whom you talk and live say to you?

ANDRES: Well, my neighbors all love my flagpole. In fact, 15 of them filed suit against the homeowner's association for using their money against a fruitful suit.

DOBBS: And, again, where's the mayor of the city of Jupiter, Florida? Where is the city council? Where in the world is your local government?

ANDRES: Well, the local government doesn't want to get involved, because this is a homeowner's association.

And the homeowner's association has got its own rules. And the city of Jupiter has its rules. And my flagpole, according to their rules, is perfectly legal. It's a -- their law says 21-foot flagpole, and I only have a 20-foot flagpole.

DOBBS: And what has...

ANDRES: So the town just.... DOBBS: Go ahead, George. Go ahead, George.

ANDRES: The -- and the town says that they think it's absolutely ridiculous that this whole thing is going on. But it's above and beyond their jurisdiction.

DOBBS: Your mortgage, I presume, is paid up? The foreclosure -- the homeowner's association has the power to literally foreclose on your home?

ANDRES: Well, they're going to attempt to. It has a mortgage on it. The mortgage company would have to be paid off and I really don't know what's going to happen. I'm just hoping that we're going to get help from the state government and I hope that we're going to be able to persuade these judges that the state law clearly says what it says, and that the judge doesn't write into the law what's not written in the law.

DOBBS: Well, you have the support of Governor Bush. You have the support of the state attorney general. It's hard to imagine that a -- a man or a woman in this country cannot put an American flag on his or her lawn if they want to. That a homeowner's association would have power that supersedes that of the state legislature, the state attorney general, the local government, is mind boggling. How far are you going to take this?

ANDRES: We're going to take this as far as we have to. Have my attorney Barry Silver (ph), who's doing this pro bono, and he's with me all the way. He says he'll take it to the United States Supreme Court if we have to. But the United States Supreme Court has ruled on a case very similar to this in 1995, and said anything that you do on your private property with flags and signs are an expression of your feelings, which is covered under the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which I feel is my right to put it up underneath the Constitution, even though the state of Florida has rules that say you can put it up, the top line is the Constitution.

DOBBS: And George, we -- we want to wish you all the luck in the world in this process. We hope that reason prevails in Florida. I can't imagine why you are still even having to -- to bear this battle as a burden there. We appreciate you taking the time. As I say, we wish you all of the best of luck.

ANDRES: No problem. I just hope that the federal government turns around and passes the addendum to the flag law that we're trying to get put in. And it will help everybody in the United States who wants to fly their flags.

DOBBS: George Andres, Jupiter, Florida, thanks for being with us.

We'd like to hear your opinion on the subject. "Do you think every American has the right to fly the flag in his or her frontyard? Yes or no?" Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later in the show. As we reported earlier, President Bush paid a visit to the 3rd Infantry Division in Ft. Stewart, Georgia today. Tonight, in our special feature "Heroes" -- we feature heroes on this broadcast every Friday -- we look at sergeant Kevin Hilton. He's a member of the 3rd Infantry Division.

Sergeant Hilton deployed in Kuwait, and then Iraq a year ago. Now he's preparing to leave the military.

Casey Wian looks at the challenges Sergeant Hilton and his growing family face as they return to civilian life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sergeant Kevin Hilton savors the little things -- picking his kids up at school, the rhythms of family life.

He's been to Grenada, Kosovo, Bosnia, Hungary. But none kept him away as long as his mission in Kuwait, and Iraq.

SGT. 1ST CLASS KEVIN HILTON, U.S. ARMY: I deployed from Ft. Stewart the 21st of September for normal rotation to Kuwait and -- which was six months. And then, probably about a -- three, four days before that, deployment was supposed to end. We got word, Hey, get ready, because you're going to war.

WIAN: It would 11 months before the husband and father of three would return.

K. HILTON: It felt wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. I could explore every inch of my house. I didn't have to wait three hours in line to go to the PX. I could use my own bathroom. I have my own phone. TV. My own air conditioner.

WIAN: Hilton's wife, Tina, has her own reasons for being happy he's home.

TINA HILTON, WIFE: When your 6-year-old asks you if your daddy's still alive, I'm looking -- I'm glad I won't have to answer those questions anymore.

WIAN: Still, the transition can be challenging.

T. HILTON: There's these routines that you had with your children while he was gone, and now he's here and routines are changing. And it's like, OK, I wanted him here, but everything's changing so fast. And you're trying to keep up with it because you're trying to ease him back into your world.

WIAN: With the war and a homecoming behind them, the Hiltons now face another transition -- to civilian life.

K. HILTON: I'm going to retire, and then we're going to move to South Carolina. I'll get a little job. And I'll continue family life. T. HILTON: I have been a military dependent my entire life. I was born in an Army hospital, I went from being my dad's dependent to being my husband's dependent. I think I have two civilian friends, you know, that don't have anything to do with the military. Everything I know is based in the military.

WIAN: After 20 years in the army, Sergeant Hilton knows it's time to give back the time he's lost to his family.

K. HILTON: They can't take it from me again. I have done my service to my country. And, you know, I've had a lot of good experiences. And I'll just take this into the civilian world.

WIAN: Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Tonight's thought, on what makes a hero. "A hero is someone who has given his other her life to bigger than oneself." Author Joseph Campbell.

Coming up next, Christine Romans will have the latest word on the New York Stock Exchange Chairman Richard Grasso's battle to stave off a growing storm of criticism over his massive pay package and a sweeping investigation into the mutual fund industry.

That story, a great deal more, is still ahead here.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The United States and Europe are locked in a bitter battle over food. Europe wants the exclusive rights to the names of 41 different foods because of the European origin. Now the EU has taken its beef to the World Trade Organization.

Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At Krufman's (ph) Deli, they're used to serving up lunchtime favorites. Salami sandwich sounds good. So does a chicken parmesean.

But household names like parma ham, salami and Swiss -- the Europeans say those name belong to them and they want them back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's what I say to them -- baloney.

SYLVESTER: But, ah, baloney belongs to Bologna, Italy. The European Union is asking the World Trade Organization, meeting in Cancun, Mexico to establish a registry of foods wines, beers and other products from their countries. They accuse the rest of the world of brand theft, riding high on their hog. So they say, no more mozzarella cheese from Vermont or burgundy wine that's not from Burgundy, France.

The Europeans don't just want the original names, but any translations or Anglocized versions. And forget Swedish style on Fontina cheese if it's not from Sweden.

But food industry experts say the Europeans can just take this idea and stuff it.

MICHAEL DIEGEL, GROCERY MANUFACTURERS OF AMERICA: I think the Europeans forget that a lot of these products were brought over by their own ancestors who immigrated to this country, including people like my wife's family, who were meatpackers and they knew how to make these products and knew the processes and when he got here began to make the foods they were used to.

SYLVESTER (on camera): Let's just imagine for a moment that this registry was actually established. It would mean that American companies would have to go back, repackage, relabel and rebrand their products. That would cost billions of dollars.

Kraft parmesean cheese, Oscar Mayer bologna and General Foods Swiss mocha coffee would all be facing a major identity crisis.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it is absurd. I think it is factitious. I think it's puerile. I think it's frivolous. I think we have much larger issues to confront.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we should leave well enough alone. It's been working all these years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: The only name the people we spoke to would be will willing to give up is french fries since they say we've already started calling them freedom fries -- Lou.

DOBBS: I haven't and I'm not about to.

This is a remarkable -- it's a very serious story, even though it's ludicrous in every respect.

SYLVESTER: Exactly, because the Europeans are saying that the American companies and other companies from different parts of the world are making millions off of their products and they say that they should be entitled to it.

DOBBS: All right. Lisa Sylvester, thank you.

On Wall Street today, stocks finished the day and week little changed. The Dow adding almost 12 points. Nasdaq almost up 9. The S&P nearly 15. The real excitement, not on the trading floor, and that's where Christine Romans was.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely Lou. A pretty much unchanged week for stocks, but a lot of excitement elsewhere. Not blue chips or tech stocks but in mutual funds. Morning Star, Lou, says Janus funds do not deserve investors' confidence and it is withdrawing its current Janus fund recommendations.

Morning Star's Brian Portinor (ph) says, investors should look outside Janus for investments because Janus put its own profitability it says, ahead of the interest of investors. Strike one, Morning Star says, was poor bear market performance. Strike two, was a series of key management departures. Strike three, Elliott Spitzer's investigation to hedge funds using mutual funds after hours.

Now Morning Star suggests that shareholders in Janus' in house funds consider moving their investments elsewhere. Meanwhile, Bank of America has asked three executives to leave in the wake of that same mutual fund probe -- Lou.

DOBBS: This probe is just beginning, we should point out.

ROMANS: It is. It is.

DOBBS: This is a very serious situation. Christine, thanks. Christine Romans.

We'll have much more on the mutual fund investigation in this week's newsmakers. The editors of the country's premier business magazines will join us to share their views on a host of news developments. And a great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Joining us now are newsmakers, editors of the leading business magazines of this country, Steve Forbes, editor in chief of "Forbes," Rik Kirkland, managing editing of "Fortune," Mark Morrison, manager editor of "Businessweek." And we thank you for being here.

An extraordinary week, the investigation into mutual funds, this is a nasty development -- Steve.

STEVE FORBES, "FORBES": It is, because the industry is vulnerable. Fees are way out of line. They don't have anything to do, many cases with real performance. We have been beating this drum for years. It's no surprise in the aftermath of a stock market bubble that there's going to be real political backlash on it.

RIK KIRKLAND, "FORTUNE": I think, one of the scary things, too is that the industry's had episodes in the past that have become isolated. But with Spitzer on the case and of course the SEC and New York A.G. is not wanting to be behind him again. They're all firing with guns blazing. This is going to be a very wide investigation. So, we'll find out how clean the industry really is.

MARK MORRISON, "BUSINESSWEEK": They're making the same mistakes in governance and lack of transparencies that we've seen too much of in corporate America and the New York stock exchange, et cetera. Investors have choices. They can buy exchange traded funds, all sorts of other ways to invest aside from mutual funds. So the funds need to get their acts together. FORBES: They have one of the most formidable lobbies in Washington. And it may be a case where it was too successful for its own good.

DOBBS: Speaking of, as Mark was, Dick Grasso, chairman of the New York Exchange, this is turning into a firestorm. The members now, special meeting next Thursday. This obviously the New York Stock Exchange management thought they could control, as they have some experience in that, how big is the problem for Dick Grasso?

MORRISON: Firestorm is a polite word for it. It's a huge mess. I think Dick Grasso is probably toast as head of the Exchange and probably should be. This institution has not much to sell except for trust and anybody, any market, electronic market, can match up trades.

The New York Stock Exchange is supposed to be setting an example, establishing trust with the investment community in the United States and around the world and it's lost it. Its credibility is shattered.

KIRKLAND: I agree with that. I also believe that you have to go further than replacing Dick. I think they need to split the regulatory function away from the profit making organization and not have both sitting in one body.

DOBBS: Steve, your thoughts?

FORBES: I think that is going to happen. We are going to get a split. One thing four years ago where that pay package wouldn't have raised an eyebrow four, five years ago. Today it manifestly is a different environment. They're too slow to wake up to it.

KIRKLAND: Wouldn't have raised an eyebrow for a not for profit quasi regulatory organization?

FORBES: Four years ago when the market was booming?

KIRKLAND: If you told me Dick Grasso was going to take home $140 million pay package I would have said, you're out of your mind.

FORBES: You would have been about the only one.

MORRISON: Well in 2001 he made $40 million.

DOBBS: Wait a minute, I can't let Steve Forbes get away with that. You can't mean that you think that that -- even by the standards of the boon that would have been sensible? This is pure, unadulterated greed.

FORBES: I didn't say it was sensible. I said the whole package, four fives years ago, would have probably gotten by.

MORRISON: Maybe we are better off now.

DOBBS: Than?

MORRISON: Than we were four or five years ago. There have been other executives have been overpaid even more money, but I think on a per pound basis, Grasso wins.

DOBBS: On a per pound basis, and also on a profit and risk responsibility basis, it is remarkable.

KIRKLAND: Well, here's the way to think about it.

DOBBS: They don't pay taxes based on a quasi regulatory...

KIRKLAND: For taking home over $200 million at 65 for running an organization that, you know, what last year had a billion in revenue, $28 million in profit and has total shareholder equity of $900 million and you're going to take home over $200 million. That's a pretty big chunk of the pie.

DOBBS: Even by the standards of the boom, Steve. We all have Grasso. He is, in every way, a charming fellow. This is, by any standards, this organization is supposed to be setting the standards corporate America and it is making it worse.

FORBES: What made it worse was they took the lead. A year ago, when the corporate scandals came along they took the lead in saying we've got to improve corporate governance. That is where he got hoisted by his own petard.

DOBBS: Well Grasso said quote, unquote, "It starts at the top."

MORRISON: The CEO and boards, the most important thing they have to have is judgment and this is such a terrible absence of judgment to have gone along with this thing. And we hear today, singing off on this pay package and not even knowing what the details are.

(CROSSTALK)

FORBES: That is where the real scandal is, not Dick Grasso, he wants to negotiate as much as he can. Where was the board. Where were the members. They let it happen. Karl McColl (ph) admitted today in the paper, he didn't even know what the package was when he signed off on it.

DOBBS: A couple of things, one thing we can be reassured, there are now 2 people in jail after 2 years of corporate scandals. Are you encouraged Steve?

FORBES: Well, there's an election coming up and there'll probably be some more before the elections over.

DOBBS: Well, at this rate, what would you say would be the number? There are what, 89 people who have been charged in the course of almost 2 years. Two are in jail. When is the justice department going to get cracking, Rik?

KIRKLAND: A little bit lax here. They're going to be making progress over the course of the next year. I think this Enron case, in particular, the guy plead guilty to the accounting fraud. The jury didn't find it, but he plead, so that sets a precedent that they use with some of the other ones.

FORBES: There's also a learning curve here. These cases, were cases prosecutors never wanted to touch in the past, because there was no glamour in it. No headlines in past in it. Hard to do. A lot of work. Now the resources are there, so they are getting up to speed. Slow, but it's going to happen.

MORRISON: They go out in the boat every day and they come back and there are no big fish in the catch. It's just these mullets that they seem to be able to throw some charge at.

DOBBS: Iraq, the Middle East, Bush's ratings declining, how significant is it all in terms of the political prospects for both President Bush and the nine or 10 Democratic contenders next year?

MORRISON: It's the big political question. You know, the economy's cooking along pretty well. The Democrats thought that was going to be a good issue for them. It's looking less and less so. Iraq and the rest of the terrorism war and Bush's -- Bush's strategies there are going to be the big issue, and it's going to be very ugly, I think, going through this process, because every action is going to be second-guessed and it's going to be nasty.

KIRKLAND: The unity we had after 9/11 went away a long time ago, and it's just going to get worse. But I mean, I think the Democrats have to be careful not to bank on things getting worse. I mean, it could get a little better here. And they have to be careful in the tone of criticism that they use, because...

FORBES: Yes, because the economy, ironically, is going to save the president. In terms of Iraq, if he does again what he did on Sunday night in terms of laying out why this is the real centerpiece of the war on terror, I think he's going to carry the people on.

DOBBS: The war on terror, foreign policy, this administration today abstaining in a vote to remove sanctions from Libya, while keeping it on our terror list, and apparently motivated entirely by the paycheck from Libya, both in the case of France, which abstained and the United States. Is this not reprehensible by any standard of conduct in foreign policy, period?

FORBES: Period. And that's why the State Department is talking about needing an overhaul. There's a department that needs a real overhaul. That came right out of State, that kind of mentality. Wrong.

DOBBS: Markets, the economy, we're in good shape, Mark?

MORRISON: I think we're in good shape. Earning keep clicking along. And if we get 5 percent growth or so in the next quarter or two, their earnings are going to pop even further. That's going to help stocks again. We're certainly going to have a correction at some point. They've gone straight up. But I'm very optimistic about the markets.

DOBBS: I don't have to ask Steve Forbes if he's optimistic; he's already on record.

(CROSSTALK)

KIRKLAND: Generally optimistic myself. I think yes, the big -- the move will be up, not down.

DOBBS: All right. Gentlemen, Steve Forbes, Rik Kirkland, Mark Morrison, as always, good to see you.

Turning to other news tonight, and in this case, sad news. Country music legend Johnny Cash is dead. He died early today. He was 71 years old. Sean Callebs has more now on the remarkable life of the Man in Black.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNNY CASH, ENTERTAINER (singing): I hear the train a coming.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Johnny Cash spent the five decades making music with his sobering blend of baritone and guitar.

Born in 1932, Cash grew up on an Arkansas cotton farm singing Baptist hymns. But Johnny wasn't born with that voice.

CASH: I was a high tenor until I was 17, and I was cutting wood one day with my father with a cross cut saw, and I came home that afternoon, my voice dropped immediately.

CALLEBS: He picked up guitar during a stint in the Air Force and released his first single in 1955. Fame came quickly with songs such as "I Walk the Line," "Folsom Prison Blues," and "Ring of Fire," a love song he co-wrote with his second wife, June Carter Cash.

By 1969, the Man in Black was the best-selling recording artist alive, even outselling the Beatles.

He won 11 Grammys, along with a Grammy legend and lifetime achievement award.

CASH: If legend fits, I'm very happy with it.

CALLEBS: But it wasn't always sunny skies. In his autobiography, Cash spoke frankly about the demise of his first marriage and long-term drug addiction.

Despite his admittedly self-destructive behavior, the father of five kept making music, collaborating with the best in his field and maintaining the affection of fans, attracted by his soulful lyrics and straight-up style.

Whether he was singing about a love gone bad or a life ill-spent, Johnny Cash was admired by generations of fans for simply telling it like it is.

(END VIDEOTAPE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll -- do you think every American has the right to fly the American flag in his or her front yard? Ninety-two percent of you say yes; 8 percent say no.

This week, Vanderbilt University announced it's doing away with its athletic department. Intercollegiate sports will be grouped together with intramural teams and other student activities, under one administrator. The aim is to better integrate sports into the fabric of academic and student life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS (voice-over): The Vanderbilt Commodores may not have the best record.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he tackles him at the 10-yard line.

DOBBS: Or the most famous players, but the university is far better known for excellence in the classroom than performance on the field or court, and it's leading by example to clean up college sports.

GORDON GEE, CHANCELLOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: This is not backing away from our commitment to athletics. It's backing away from our commitment to isolation.

And by integrating, I think what we do is we create a very powerful model, which says that the word "student athlete" is not an oxymoron.

DOBBS: In a year that has seen college athletics scarred by everything from cheating and robbery to murder, critics say college sports, coaches and athletes are out of control. Too many acting as if they were above the law.

The NCAA, which has struggled with how to deal with college athletes, applauded Vanderbilt's move. In a statement, the NCAA president said, "this is more than an experiment. It is a major shift in the collegiate sports culture."

Vanderbilt's Southeastern Conference is taking a wait-and-see attitude, however, towards the overhaul, saying what's good for Vanderbilt may not be good for everyone. And Vanderbilt is one of the few universities with the reputation necessary to take the lead on this important cultural shift.

JAKE CROUTHAMEL, ATHLETIC DIRECTOR, SYRACUSE UNIV.: If there's a model out there for Division 1A Athletics, Vanderbilt comes very close to that model.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And it's a remarkable step for a university that has had one minor NCAA infraction over the course of the past half century. That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Al Franken is out with a new book called "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them." That book really upset Fox News. Made me think he might be an interesting guest. He'll be here Monday. And we'll begin our series of special reports next week on extraordinary careers, how to achieve success and satisfaction in your work and in your life. Please join us.

For all of us here, good night from New York. Have a great weekend.

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