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American Morning
Israel's Plan to Remove Arafat Not Sitting Well in Washington, West Bank
Aired September 12, 2003 - 08:12 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Israel's plan to remove Yasser Arafat from Palestinian territory not sitting well in Washington or in the West Bank. Thousands of Arafat supporters marched yesterday in Gaza and other West Bank towns protesting the decision by Israel's security cabinet to remove Arafat from being an obstacle to peace.
The U.S. opposed to that move. Arafat vows not to leave.
Hassan Abdel Rahman, chief Palestinian rep to the U.S., with us to talk about here in D.C.
Good morning.
Welcome back here to AMERICAN MORNING.
HASSAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE IN THE U.S.: Good morning.
HEMMER: We'll be joined by the Israeli rep in a moment here.
Why do you believe Yasser Arafat should remain in power?
RAHMAN: Well, first of all, he's a Palestinian. This is his country. He was elected by his people. And those are two very, very good reasons for him to stay.
HEMMER: What do you think he's doing right now to stop the suicide bombers and to stop the terrorist hits inside Israel?
RAHMAN: Well, you know, Israel has ruled the West Bank for 35 years. It maintained 50,000 soldiers and hundreds of tanks and they could not stop it. Yasser Arafat has been imprisoned for two years in his office in Ramallah and he's expected to do what 50,000 Israeli soldiers could not do?
That's absolutely ridiculous from the Israeli side.
What is producing suicide bombers is Israeli policies in the West Bank and Gaza -- their destruction of homes, the building of Jewish settlements, assassinating groups. If they want violence to stop, they really have to leave the Palestinian people alone and get out of that.
HEMMER: You want peace...
RAHMAN: And that's the only way. HEMMER: You want peace, right?
RAHMAN: Yes.
HEMMER: Yes...
RAHMAN: Absolutely.
HEMMER: And if the Palestinian people want peace and if you know Israel will not negotiate with Yasser Arafat, if you know the U.S. does not want to deal with...
RAHMAN: No...
HEMMER: ... Yasser Arafat, how can the Palestinian people go around this issue and get something done?
RAHMAN: But, you know, this is very offensive to the Palestinians. So, to for Israel to come and tell them who should be their leader. We do not like Sharon. We believe Sharon is a terrorist. And he is one. But we do not ask the Israelis to remove him as a condition to negotiate with Israel.
That's why it is for the Palestinians to decide who are their leaders. It is not about persons, Bill. It is about policies. Israel is trying to personalize the conflict because they have a bankrupt policy in the West Bank and Gaza.
HEMMER: I'm curious to know from this, too, if you can give me a number I'd really appreciate it. We watched these demonstrations in the streets of Gaza and other West Bank towns.
RAHMAN: Yes?
HEMMER: These people are incited to go into the street based on loudspeakers and the message that went out there in the Palestinian territories. What is the percentage of Palestinian support saying that Yasser Arafat is, indeed, the only hope they have for peace?
RAHMAN: You know, in the face of this challenge, I believe that the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians are genuinely in the street to protest the Israeli decision. Because this decision is offensive to the Palestinian people as a whole, and to -- and it is an affront to legality, to morality and it is particularly stupid. And that's why we believe that those people are genuinely there protesting the Israeli decisions.
People may have differences of views with the PLO and with Yasser Arafat, but they will never accept the imposition of a stand by Israel on the Palestinians.
HEMMER: Thank you for your thoughts.
RAHMAN: Israel should understand that.
HEMMER: Thank you. Hassan Abdel Rahman, we appreciate it, down there in D.C.
RAHMAN: Thank you.
HEMMER: From the Israeli side now, Counsul General Alon Pinkus live with us here in New York City.
Good morning to you, sir.
ALON PINKUS, ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: What gives you the right, as Hassan Abdel Rahman says, what gives Israel the right to pick and choose the Palestinian leadership?
PINKUS: It doesn't. We never chose them, even though we're disappointed with the quality of their leadership, with the adequacies of their leadership, with the accomplishments of their leadership, none of which is something to brag about. We have not chosen Palestinian leaders. We have negotiated with Arafat. Tomorrow marks the 10 year anniversary of the Oslo Accords. We have negotiated with Abu Mazen.
I can only expect and assume that we will negotiate with his successor, Ahmed Qureia, known as Abu Ala.
This is not about electing, selecting or appointing or making conditions about their leadership. This is about the lack of leadership, Bill. This is about a people who have wasted opportunity after opportunity, who have killed, who have glorified death, who have turned suicide bombings into their national symbols of success.
This is about us trying to implement any and every form or method of negotiations and failing time and time again.
HEMMER: OK, I understand your position. We've heard it many times. Define the word remove. What does that mean?
PINKUS: Remove is a -- first of all, we have started removing him by rendering him irrelevant about two and a half years ago. And, in fact, even as early as Camp David in July of 2000, just over three years ago, he has ceased to be a serious and credible interlocutor.
HEMMER: So then how is it, if you remember Yasser Arafat, whatever that means, because you haven't given me a definition -- let's assume...
PINKUS: I will.
HEMMER: OK, go ahead.
PINKUS: The definition is that we want to pursue peace and we want to pursue peace and genuinely and seriously. And successive governments have done that and we...
HEMMER: Hang on, does the mean kill him or does that mean... PINKUS: No, no...
HEMMER: ... fly him to Tunis or Malta --
PINKUS: No, no, we don't...
HEMMER: ... or Cypress or Cairo?
PINKUS: We don't, A, I'm not privy to the specifics. B, we're not in the habit of killing people just because we don't like them. I don't think that this is what the decision was designed to achieve or what the letter or the spirit of the decision implies.
Removing an obstacle to peace could mean a lot of things. I think that if the decision was to expel him immediately, then you would have heard that specifically. This is not playing games with diplomatic mumbo jumbo.
But the story here, Bill, is not Arafat's fate. The story is that 10 years of negotiations have yielded nothing for the Palestinians, blood and murder for the Israelis, and we want to live side by side with the Palestinians.
Now, a society, a national liberation movement that makes terrorism its banner, that is still, is still not coming to terms with reality...
HEMMER: Well, let me stop you on that point, because I want to go back to the sentence you just completed. If you remove Yasser Arafat, back on the issue that we're discussing today...
PINKUS: Yes?
HEMMER: ... how does that increase the possibility for peace?
PINKUS: I'll tell you how. It, first of all, I'm not saying we will remove him, but let's assume, for the sake of conversation, that he is removed at some point. He controls the security organs. He's the man who gives the green light for terror attacks, or at least looks the other way. He has been the impediment and the obstacle to a unification of the 12 -- listen carefully -- 12 separate Palestinian security organs.
If he is removed from power -- and we have said even after Mahmoud Abbas took over that any residual executive power that this thug has will prevent a serious political negotiations -- if he is removed, that power vacuum will be filled by someone else, someone we can deal with. That does not mean someone that we like. That does not mean someone that agrees with our positions. It could also mean someone who is just as much a Palestinian nationalist.
HEMMER: All right...
PINKUS: But someone who's also a pragmatist, a realists, someone who is reasonable and someone who doesn't think that terror is a way of life. HEMMER: Alon Pinkus, thanks, here in New York.
Hassan Abdel Rahman prior to that in D.C.
Appreciate your thoughts today.
PINKUS: Thank you, Bill.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Washington, West Bank>
Aired September 12, 2003 - 08:12 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Israel's plan to remove Yasser Arafat from Palestinian territory not sitting well in Washington or in the West Bank. Thousands of Arafat supporters marched yesterday in Gaza and other West Bank towns protesting the decision by Israel's security cabinet to remove Arafat from being an obstacle to peace.
The U.S. opposed to that move. Arafat vows not to leave.
Hassan Abdel Rahman, chief Palestinian rep to the U.S., with us to talk about here in D.C.
Good morning.
Welcome back here to AMERICAN MORNING.
HASSAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE IN THE U.S.: Good morning.
HEMMER: We'll be joined by the Israeli rep in a moment here.
Why do you believe Yasser Arafat should remain in power?
RAHMAN: Well, first of all, he's a Palestinian. This is his country. He was elected by his people. And those are two very, very good reasons for him to stay.
HEMMER: What do you think he's doing right now to stop the suicide bombers and to stop the terrorist hits inside Israel?
RAHMAN: Well, you know, Israel has ruled the West Bank for 35 years. It maintained 50,000 soldiers and hundreds of tanks and they could not stop it. Yasser Arafat has been imprisoned for two years in his office in Ramallah and he's expected to do what 50,000 Israeli soldiers could not do?
That's absolutely ridiculous from the Israeli side.
What is producing suicide bombers is Israeli policies in the West Bank and Gaza -- their destruction of homes, the building of Jewish settlements, assassinating groups. If they want violence to stop, they really have to leave the Palestinian people alone and get out of that.
HEMMER: You want peace...
RAHMAN: And that's the only way. HEMMER: You want peace, right?
RAHMAN: Yes.
HEMMER: Yes...
RAHMAN: Absolutely.
HEMMER: And if the Palestinian people want peace and if you know Israel will not negotiate with Yasser Arafat, if you know the U.S. does not want to deal with...
RAHMAN: No...
HEMMER: ... Yasser Arafat, how can the Palestinian people go around this issue and get something done?
RAHMAN: But, you know, this is very offensive to the Palestinians. So, to for Israel to come and tell them who should be their leader. We do not like Sharon. We believe Sharon is a terrorist. And he is one. But we do not ask the Israelis to remove him as a condition to negotiate with Israel.
That's why it is for the Palestinians to decide who are their leaders. It is not about persons, Bill. It is about policies. Israel is trying to personalize the conflict because they have a bankrupt policy in the West Bank and Gaza.
HEMMER: I'm curious to know from this, too, if you can give me a number I'd really appreciate it. We watched these demonstrations in the streets of Gaza and other West Bank towns.
RAHMAN: Yes?
HEMMER: These people are incited to go into the street based on loudspeakers and the message that went out there in the Palestinian territories. What is the percentage of Palestinian support saying that Yasser Arafat is, indeed, the only hope they have for peace?
RAHMAN: You know, in the face of this challenge, I believe that the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians are genuinely in the street to protest the Israeli decision. Because this decision is offensive to the Palestinian people as a whole, and to -- and it is an affront to legality, to morality and it is particularly stupid. And that's why we believe that those people are genuinely there protesting the Israeli decisions.
People may have differences of views with the PLO and with Yasser Arafat, but they will never accept the imposition of a stand by Israel on the Palestinians.
HEMMER: Thank you for your thoughts.
RAHMAN: Israel should understand that.
HEMMER: Thank you. Hassan Abdel Rahman, we appreciate it, down there in D.C.
RAHMAN: Thank you.
HEMMER: From the Israeli side now, Counsul General Alon Pinkus live with us here in New York City.
Good morning to you, sir.
ALON PINKUS, ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: What gives you the right, as Hassan Abdel Rahman says, what gives Israel the right to pick and choose the Palestinian leadership?
PINKUS: It doesn't. We never chose them, even though we're disappointed with the quality of their leadership, with the adequacies of their leadership, with the accomplishments of their leadership, none of which is something to brag about. We have not chosen Palestinian leaders. We have negotiated with Arafat. Tomorrow marks the 10 year anniversary of the Oslo Accords. We have negotiated with Abu Mazen.
I can only expect and assume that we will negotiate with his successor, Ahmed Qureia, known as Abu Ala.
This is not about electing, selecting or appointing or making conditions about their leadership. This is about the lack of leadership, Bill. This is about a people who have wasted opportunity after opportunity, who have killed, who have glorified death, who have turned suicide bombings into their national symbols of success.
This is about us trying to implement any and every form or method of negotiations and failing time and time again.
HEMMER: OK, I understand your position. We've heard it many times. Define the word remove. What does that mean?
PINKUS: Remove is a -- first of all, we have started removing him by rendering him irrelevant about two and a half years ago. And, in fact, even as early as Camp David in July of 2000, just over three years ago, he has ceased to be a serious and credible interlocutor.
HEMMER: So then how is it, if you remember Yasser Arafat, whatever that means, because you haven't given me a definition -- let's assume...
PINKUS: I will.
HEMMER: OK, go ahead.
PINKUS: The definition is that we want to pursue peace and we want to pursue peace and genuinely and seriously. And successive governments have done that and we...
HEMMER: Hang on, does the mean kill him or does that mean... PINKUS: No, no...
HEMMER: ... fly him to Tunis or Malta --
PINKUS: No, no, we don't...
HEMMER: ... or Cypress or Cairo?
PINKUS: We don't, A, I'm not privy to the specifics. B, we're not in the habit of killing people just because we don't like them. I don't think that this is what the decision was designed to achieve or what the letter or the spirit of the decision implies.
Removing an obstacle to peace could mean a lot of things. I think that if the decision was to expel him immediately, then you would have heard that specifically. This is not playing games with diplomatic mumbo jumbo.
But the story here, Bill, is not Arafat's fate. The story is that 10 years of negotiations have yielded nothing for the Palestinians, blood and murder for the Israelis, and we want to live side by side with the Palestinians.
Now, a society, a national liberation movement that makes terrorism its banner, that is still, is still not coming to terms with reality...
HEMMER: Well, let me stop you on that point, because I want to go back to the sentence you just completed. If you remove Yasser Arafat, back on the issue that we're discussing today...
PINKUS: Yes?
HEMMER: ... how does that increase the possibility for peace?
PINKUS: I'll tell you how. It, first of all, I'm not saying we will remove him, but let's assume, for the sake of conversation, that he is removed at some point. He controls the security organs. He's the man who gives the green light for terror attacks, or at least looks the other way. He has been the impediment and the obstacle to a unification of the 12 -- listen carefully -- 12 separate Palestinian security organs.
If he is removed from power -- and we have said even after Mahmoud Abbas took over that any residual executive power that this thug has will prevent a serious political negotiations -- if he is removed, that power vacuum will be filled by someone else, someone we can deal with. That does not mean someone that we like. That does not mean someone that agrees with our positions. It could also mean someone who is just as much a Palestinian nationalist.
HEMMER: All right...
PINKUS: But someone who's also a pragmatist, a realists, someone who is reasonable and someone who doesn't think that terror is a way of life. HEMMER: Alon Pinkus, thanks, here in New York.
Hassan Abdel Rahman prior to that in D.C.
Appreciate your thoughts today.
PINKUS: Thank you, Bill.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Washington, West Bank>
