Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bush Meets With Putin at Camp David; American Jobs Flooding Overseas; Wesley Clark Temporarily Ahead In Polls
Aired September 26, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, "Exporting America." What's being done to keep your job in this country? The answer will shock you.
"Heroes": the story tonight of a Marine who has fought against America's enemies in Afghanistan and Iraq, but who lost a battle at home.
In "News Makers" tonight, the editors of "BusinessWeek," "Fortune," and "Forbes" on week in our political economy.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, September 26. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, President Bush and Russian President Putin are beginning a critical two-day summit at Camp David. At the top of their agenda is Iraq. President Bush wants Russian support for a United Nations resolution authorizing a multinational force in Iraq. But the two leaders remain far apart over the issue of Iran. The United States says Russian technology is helping Iran develop nuclear weapons.
Senior White House correspondent John King has the story -- John¯
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as that delicate diplomacy gets under way up at Camp David, more of a political firestorm as well here in Washington over the president's plans for reconstruction of Iraq. Let us begin there.
Mr. Putin arriving at Camp David a short time ago. As you noted, differences on Iraq and Iran, but the White House is heartened by the fact that President Putin comes to Camp David -- and he arrived a short time ago -- saying that he wants to reach a middle ground with President Bush on the issue of a new Security Council resolution, the Russian president even saying he does not rule out Russian troops at some point joining international forces in Iraq.
So the White House heartened by that. Now, Iran is a difficult issue, a contentious issue between these two presidents for most of the Bush administration. In recent weeks, the Bush administration does say that Mr. Putin has been putting pressure on the government in Iran to let international inspectors in. The White House says Iran is abusing its relationship with Russia, using nuclear technology it gets from Moscow to develop nuclear weapons. The Kremlin says that is unclear as yet. But the White House is hoping that Mr. Putin at least joins Mr. Bush at a news conference tomorrow and demands that the Iranian government let international inspectors in to look throughout the country at its nuclear weapons program and to put to the test Iran's claims that its nuclear program is only for peaceful electricity purposes -- that key summit up at Camp David.
Back here in Washington today, the administration conceding publicly that it might not get all of what it wants in the debate over postwar spending in Iraq. At issue, mostly, the president's $20 billion request for reconstruction in Iraq. Mr. Bush says all of that should be grants. Many in Congress say, no, much of that money should are paid back by Iraq.
And today, the White House press secretary, Scott McClellan, opened the door to a compromise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We're continuing to fight for the package as we outlined it and as we presented it to Congress. But, obviously, we recognize this is a process where we work together on it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, as Congress looked at the fine print, this is one reason many are saying this should be loans, not grants. There is $9 million in this bill to develop a zip code postal system for Iraq, $4 million in this bill to bring a telephone area code system to Iraq; 40 garbage trucks would be paid for in this bill at a cost of $50,000 each.
Many in Congress are saying that is not why they authorized this president to go to war in Iraq. They do not believe American taxpayers should foot the bill for that. They believe, ultimately, Iraqi oil revenue should pay for it. The fight now, Lou, what percentage of that $20 billion in reconstruction will be grants and what will be loans? This president facing some tough sledding in Congress -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, two polls this week showing the president's approval rating dropping to the lowest level since he was in office. What's the reaction there at the White House? Concern?
KING: They are deeply concerned. They also are heartened by the fact that we are in an odd-numbered year, not in the presidential election year just yet.
They believe two factors, the controversy over the policy in Iraq and the continuing mixed data about the U.S. economy, they say, if a year from now, the situation in Iraq looks better, the new government is about to get up and running, and if the U.S. economy is back up, the president will be just fine. But, certainly, they are worried. This is the lowest point this president has been at in his 32 months in office.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much -- John King, our senior White House correspondent.
Well, as John just reported, the White House today strongly defended the president's request for that $87 billion for reconstruction in Iraq. The top U.S. civilian in Iraq, Paul Bremer, spent much of the week on Capitol Hill answering tough questions about the administration's policies in that country.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has that story -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, Paul Bremer wrapped up his week with a last-ditch pitch here at the Pentagon to the press corps, again trying to make the case for why that $20 billion should be in a grant, not a loan. He said, the money is not a nice-to-have, but a must-have.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: And the proposition behind the $20 billion is that, if we don't succeed in the reconstruction effort in Iraq, there is a very real risk, indeed, I think a likelihood, that Iraq will, because of the continued instability and poverty, become the kind of breeding ground for terrorism that we've seen in other countries in the last 20 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, Bremer does hope that, by October, Iraq will be able to get its oil revenue, its oil production, back up to about three million barrels a day. That would produce, over a year, about $20 billion in revenue for Iraq and a surplus of maybe $4 billion or $5 billion. And that's why some members in Congress are eying that as a possible source of funding.
And, Lou, one other item today, sources telling CNN that the Pentagon is close to reaching a deal that would have South Korean troops lead up a third multinational division in Iraq. And that could possibly relieve pressure on the move to call up more reserves next year -- Lou.
DOBBS: A full division of South Korean troops?
MCINTYRE: No. They would provide the leadership and the structure for the division, as well as several thousand troops. But there are other countries that have indicated they would donate troops if someone else led the division. And Pentagon sources say they're close to reaching some sort of an agreement with South Korea.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
Terrorists today killed a soldier with a rocked-propelled grenade in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk. Two other soldiers were wounded. Troops supported by tanks launched a major security operation after that attack. There are no reports of any terrorists being captured or killed.
Central Command today said 307 Americans have been killed in Iraq since the beginning of the war against Saddam Hussein, 191 of them in combat, 116 in accidents. Another 1,663 troops have been wounded or injured, 323 of those -- all but 323 of them, rather, by hostile fire.
More violence today in the West Bank. An Israeli adult and a baby were killed when a Palestinian gunman barged into a house in a Jewish settlement south of Hebron. The gunman was shot and killed. The incident took place as Jews began ushering in the Jewish new year, Rosh Hashanah.
The United States, Russia, Europe and the United Nations today expressed what they termed great concern over the escalating violence between Palestinians and Israelis. The group is trying to revive the road map to peace that has all but collapsed because of the growing violence.
Senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth has the story -- Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Lou, thank you.
The start of a new year, Rosh Hashanah, for the Jewish people, a new year, but, surprise, no new Middle East peace agreement. There was a meeting today of the Quartet. This is the main international group trying to come up with a permanent Middle East peace solution. You see Kofi Annan. The U.N. is part of it, along with the United States, the European Union, and Russia.
In town from the U.S., Secretary of State Colin Powell. Some familiar language: Each party must do more to address immediately and simultaneously the core issues. But if you read the tea leaves, the language was harsher on the Palestinians. The statement said, the Quartet members must condemn the vicious terror attacks of August and September, calling on the Palestinians to take immediate decisive steps against individuals and groups conducting terrorist activities.
As for Israel, Secretary-General Kofi Annan:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: The quartet members recognize Israel's legitimate right to self-defense in the face of terrorist attacks against its citizens. In this context and in the context of international humanitarian law, they call on the government of Israel to exert maximum efforts to the avoid civilian casualties.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: It becomes very difficult to move forward and to expect either side to move forward if it is against the backdrop of continued terror on the part of organizations such as Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
(END VIDEO CLIP) ROTH: Diplomats telling CNN that Yasser Arafat continues to be uncooperative, refusing to empower the new incoming prime minister, and sources saying that there are still trouble ahead, Secretary- General Annan saying that these small steps must be undertaken. If not, all of us will pay a heavy price.
DOBBS: Expressions of concern, Richard, admonishment, even regrets, but no new initiative.
ROTH: No. The diplomats try, try, try. And they talk about future meetings. They were all in New York for this General Assembly debate, but nothing really new moving it forward.
DOBBS: Senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth, thank you.
Coming up next: Presidential hopeful General Wesley Clark campaigns on the economy in a state that could -- could -- make or break the race. Dan Lothian reports from New Hampshire.
And millions of American jobs flooding overseas. The government says it's not their fault. It's a problem simply for the individuals who are victimized. Lisa Sylvester will have the story.
And business students get down and dirty with the Marines on the toughest course they'll ever take on. Peter Viles has the story.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Retire General Wesley Clark today headed to New Hampshire, following last night's debate here in New York. Clark failed to offer many specifics during the debate. For that matter, no one else offered many themselves. But he did attack parts of the president's tax cut, saying he has a simpler, fairer tax code in mind.
Our Dan Lothian is in Henniker, New Hampshire, now with the story -- Dan.
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, we're about 17 weeks or so away from the New Hampshire primary. Of course, this is the critical primary state. Wesley Clark, as you mentioned, made his first trip to the Granite State, as he tries win over voters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't mind shaking your hand.
LOTHIAN (voice-over): One day after his first presidential debate, retired General Wesley Clark hit the campaign trail with confidence.
WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It was terrific. I loved it. It was just wonderful. LOTHIAN: At this Manchester, New Hampshire, diner, Clark wasted no time taking a swipe at what he told potential supporters is a failed Bush administration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you feel about Bush's policies?
CLARK: Well, I'm very concerned. I think his foreign policy is a disaster. He doesn't have a strategy that will make us safer.
LOTHIAN: Late to the race, but first in some national polls, Clark is trying to capitalize on his momentum, pushing his $100 billion job plan, while some say still tweaking his position on many key issues, something that's drawn a lot of criticism.
CLARK: And I will be coming with a set of policy proposals just as quick as I can do it. I've been in the race about 10 days. And I'm proud to say, I have got a better jobs program in 10 days than George Bush has had in 2 1/2 years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He hasn't formulated all his answers right now. But based on the information that he's given so far, he seems to be able to make correct choices. He seems to be a very smart man. And I have confidence that he'll come up with the right solutions.
LOTHIAN: But Clark, who has admitted voting for Reagan and Nixon, is also having to answer questions about his commitment to the Democratic Party.
CLARK: I was going to be either a very, very lonely Republican, or I was going to be a very happy Democrat. And I am a Democrat. And I'm proud to be one. I'm a new Democrat.
LOTHIAN: As Clark works the sidewalks of Manchester's commercial district, he's trying to play catchup in the backyard of two other top-tier candidates, Massachusetts Senator John Kerry and former Vermont Governor Howard Dean, who currently leads the polls in New Hampshire.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LOTHIAN: According to the most recent poll here in New Hampshire, Dean leads with 35 percent of the vote, Kerry 22 percent, and Clark 11 percent. Clark, of course, will taking part here at the New England College in Henniker, taking part in a town hall meeting later tonight -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dan, thank you very much, Dan Lothian reporting from Henniker. We appreciate it.
Turning now to the other election, that one over in California. The recall race now fewer than two weeks away. Arnold Schwarzenegger leading the pack, in fund-raising, certainly. Schwarzenegger has spent more $13 million so far, nearly $4 million remaining in cash. Among the donors, former President George Bush giving $1,000.
Meanwhile, the leading Democrat in that race, Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante, has raised more than $9 million, although he has now less than $200,000 remaining in cash.
Another prominent Republican today officially supporting Arnold Schwarzenegger. Congressman Darrell Issa, the man who bankrolled that original recall effort, siding with Schwarzenegger, saying he will take California in the right direction. Governor Gray Davis challenged Schwarzenegger to a debate. The Schwarzenegger campaign quickly rejected the offer, saying -- quote -- "It's official. The Gray Davis death spiral has commenced." He'd be better served, they said, to debate some of the 1.6 Californians who signed petitions to recall him.
Our Bob Franken in California following the recall race -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the big mystery of the day was, would Arnold Schwarzenegger debate Gray Davis? Of course, the answer was no.
And what we're doing is getting a spin that is really remarkable, even by those of us who are quite used to the political spin. Both sides are trying to say that it shows their campaign is health and the other one is not. The Schwarzenegger people are calling people and saying that, in fact, as they said on the record, that Gray Davis is in a death spiral, this is a desperation ploy.
But the Davis people saying that their polling is showing that it is tightening up, that they believe that they have an excellent chance of beating the recall and making the Schwarzenegger candidacy, as well as 134 others who are out there -- and about 25 write-ins, by the way -- making them all irrelevant, because, of course, if the recall is defeated, there is no election for a replacement candidate.
Nevertheless, Schwarzenegger continues to accumulate the endorsements. You pointed out that Darrell Issa, the congressman, came on board today. What's interesting about all this is that so many of these endorsements come from people who are really ideologically closer to the man they're trying to get out of the race. I'm talking about state Senator Tom McClintock.
McClintock is the man who is considered the spoiler, perhaps the best friend that the Democrats could have, if, in fact, he siphons enough votes away to allow a Democrat to stay in the statehouse or to win the recall and go into the statehouse. But McClintock right now is saying he's in the race to stay. He's even taken his meager amounts of money and has bought some television time.
But, Lou, there's plenty of time for him to change his mind. And that is something his fellow Republicans are working very hard on him to do -- Lou.
DOBBS: The latest numbers, Bob, the polls that are showing -- a week ago, they were showing some ebbing support for the recall. What is the latest to show us?
FRANKEN: Well, we've seen the latest public polls. So now I'm talking about internal polls. And those that I have had some description of say that there continues to be an ebbing support for the recall.
To be honest about it, it's too close to tell. The last couple of weeks of the campaign are going to be vital. Whichever ones can put out the best commercials and also whichever side can get out the most people -- that is to say, get-out-the-vote campaign. It's all fundamental, Lou, when it's all over.
DOBBS: Is there what you would call rising indifference in California to this election?
FRANKEN: I'll tell you what. I don't see indifference at all. In fact, some of the highest ratings they've ever had for a political program occurred on Wednesday night, with that debate/free-for-all.
DOBBS: OK. Bob Franken, thank you very much.
Coming up: While American jobs flood overseas, a U.S. government official says it's not a problem for the economy. Lisa Sylvester reports.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: America faces an unprecedented crisis over the export of jobs overseas, not just in manufacturing, but in other industries.
According to one study, more than one million white-collar jobs are likely to disappear from this country in the next 15 years. We asked the administration and Congress both what, if anything, they're doing to keep jobs in this country. Some of the answers may well surprise you.
Lisa Sylvester has our special report -- Lisa.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as jobs continue to flee over seas, the Bush administration and Congress are divided over how big of a problem it is and what should be done about it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The textile business was one of the first to move jobs overseas. Gus Piccinni is a clothing manufacturer in Maryland. He says it's almost impossible to compete with foreign textile companies. He pays his workers $10.50 an hour. A worker in China might get 50 cents an hour.
GUS PICCINNI, TEXTILE MANUFACTURER: I can beat delivery, hands down. But I cannot beat price.
SYLVESTER: Now, it seems, no one is immune. Call centers, information technology, and financial services are all shipping jobs to countries like India and China.
Congress has proposed legislation to address the problem. One bill would give income tax credits to companies to keep jobs here. Buy-America legislation would require the Pentagon to use more domestic suppliers. Another would limit the number of visas issued to foreign workers. And yet another threatens to race tariff levels against China.
But the Bush administration opposes many of these measures, arguing the exporting of jobs is not a problem for the larger U.S. economy.
GRANT ALDONAS, UNDERSECRETARY OF COMMERCE FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE: It's a problem more for the individuals who are caught in that competitive vice than it is for the economy as a whole. When we think about a manufacturing crisis, there is a crisis in certain industries.
SYLVESTER: And to address that, the Bush administration prefers to emphasize tax cuts, even though they may have unintended consequences.
CLYDE PRESTOWITZ, ECONOMIC STRATEGY INSTITUTE: What is finally beginning to be recognized is that, while the tax cuts do provide a certain amount of stimulus, a lot of that stimulus is actually going to buy products that are coming here from overseas.
SYLVESTER: Treasury Secretary John Snow traveled to China last month to pressure the Chinese government to float its currency, a move that would make American products more competitive. But he was unable to convince the Chinese to take immediate action. Manufacturers say the loss of jobs is spreading to so many different sectors, workers have nowhere to turn.
AUGGIE TANTILLO, AMERICAN MANUFACTURING TRADE ACTION COALITION: Two and a half million workers in the manufacturing sector here in the United States have lost their job since January of 2001. We are looking at at least that many, if not more, over the next 2 1/2 years.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Commerce Department is forming a team to track and investigate unfair trade practices. And President Bush is creating a new position, a manufacturing czar, who will work with business leaders to come up with a strategy for saving jobs -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you -- Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.
The manufacturing czar that Lisa Sylvester mentioned will have a massive undertaking on his hands. More than three million American jobs will be exported in the next 11 years. An overwhelming majority of those jobs, research says, will go to India, the Philippines and China. Among the American companies now shipping the most jobs offshore, General Electric, 20,000 jobs; Oracle, doubling employment in India to 6,000; Intel, 3,000 workers again in India by 2005.
Back in this country, more than 1.5 million Americans fell into poverty last year, according to the latest census; 34.6 million people, 12 percent of the American population, now live below the poverty line, which is $18,000 for a family of four. The Census Bureau reports the median income among all Americans declined for a second straight year, now $42,000. Households headed by foreign-born noncitizens saw the biggest decline in income, at nearly 4 percent.
Earlier this week, we reported to you an amazing story about a crosscountry bus trip by immigrant workers to draw attention to undocumented aliens and their rights in this country. Incredibly, those workers want an amnesty for millions of aliens who have entered this country illegally. Today, the U.S. Border Patrol stopped two of the buses in west Texas and they asked the passengers to show their identification.
The bus riders refused to show their documentation and, according to their spokeswoman, engaged in what they call nonviolent resistance. The buses were then allowed to continue their journey. The Border Patrol did not immediately return any call for comment.
And that brings us to the topic of tonight's poll. The question: How should the United States deal with the question of illegal immigrants? Enforce border security, give all illegal aliens amnesty, maintain the status quo? Please cast your vote on the issue at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results coming up later in the show.
"Heroes," our feature series -- this week, one Marine's remarkable story of bravery, sacrifice and homecoming -- next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: One of the most storied military training grounds is the Officer Candidate School of the U.S. Marine Corps in Quantico, Virginia. It's where generations of Marine leaders have honed their skills. Today, the grounds welcomed an unlikely bunch, second-year MBA students from the Wharton School. They spent the day literally down in the mud learning leadership from Marines.
Peter Viles has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Susan Park (ph) is not a Marine, and she never will be. She's a business student at Wharton. But today's lesson was leadership. And it was taught by the United States Marine Corps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, good morning.
STUDENTS: Good morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We sounded like we're tired. Good morning!
STUDENTS: Good morning!
VILES: The drill, combat training and problem solving on the Marine Corps' famous leadership reaction course.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are so close. You are so close.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can do it. Let's go! Come on!
VILES (on camera): There's a lot corporate America could learn about leadership from the Marines: discipline, teamwork, sacrifice. But there's another variable, an intangible the Marines stress that corporate America could use a little of. And that's character.
(voice-over): Part of the point of these exercises is to fail, sometimes again and again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fast! There you go. Good job. All right. Let's go.
VILES: The marines want to see if you get back up.
COL. LOU RACHAL, MARINE OFFICER CANDIDATE SCHOOL: We've seen some people here who come here and fail the events, all then of the sudden start going downhill. We've seen some who fail and they don't let that stop them. They try to -- try to lift themselves back up and find another solution.
VILES: For MBA students, it's a test they can't study for. A course where theory does not matter.
EVAN WITTENBERG, WHARTON LEADERSHIP PROGRAM: The marines really teach our students -- our students sometimes get stuck in analysis paralysis, looking for the 100 percent solution. And what the marines teach us is sometimes a 70 percent solution, as the marines say, violently executed, well executed, is better.
VILES: Susan Park had a tough day. She fell hard from a rope, spent a lot time in the mud, but she stayed focused on the day's lesson.
SUSAN PARK, WHARTON STUDENT: Quick decision-making. And when there's a setback, you overcome it, and you continue to press on.
VILES: Somewhere in the mud, the marines have a lesson for all of corporate America, humility and perseverance. Peter Viles, CNN, Quantico, Virginia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Nearly 200 troops serving in Iraq today returned to this country for two weeks of rest and relaxation. The troops landed in Baltimore-Washington International Airport in Maryland. They are the first troops to take part in the military's largest home leave program since the Vietnam War. These are some of their stories.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've been waiting to see her since -- I don't even remember when I left. Waiting to see her...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: March 22. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Since March 22. It's great. I've been waiting a long time. Waiting a long time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to go home, because my wife right now is in the hospital. She's going have my little boy. I want it try to get an early ticket, see if I can change it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It feels great. It's just kind of overwhelming right now. I'm going to get good food near a minute and sleep in a bed tonight. Can't beat that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A long waited. They told us about this about four days ago. Five days ago. And it seemed like about a year since then.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see my kids, and spend time with them. My mom, my dad and try and go out and see as many sights as I can. When you're stuck in the desert, there's not much to see but dirt and sand and sun. That's it. But here, there's a lot of beauty here that a lot you take for granted.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS; And welcome home. Tonight in our feature series "Heroes" the story of a man who took part in two of the most daring rescues in military history. After serving bravely in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq, Marine Corps Staff Sergeant Bryan Cox is safely home, but his service took a toll on his family. Casey Wian has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Staff Sergeant Bryan Cox is a CH-53 helicopter crew chief, responsible for maintaining these 14,000 horsepower crew and cargo movers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It can carry up to 55 fully loaded combat marines.
WIAN: Less than a month after September 11 he flew into Pakistan and Afghanistan. His crew rescued a dozen special forces and Northern Alliance forces involved in a Blackhawk helicopter crash.
STAFF SGT. BRYAN COX, U.S. MARINE CORPS: That was the first realtime I'd ever seen war. The first person they brought on the plane was a guy that wasn't no older than me, and he was cut up pretty bad. And that's the first time you really realize that it's real.
WIAN: He returned safely to his infant son and fiancee. Quickly they married. Eight months later Cox left again to Iraq with a message for the enemy painted on his helicopter.
COX: I'm a big Metallica fan. I just started putting names of songs. "Ride The Lightning", "Creeping Death," "No Remorse." It's a little pride in your plane...
WIAN: He participated in the rescue of private Jessica Lynch, carrying special forces fighters into hostile fire. Mission accomplished again.
COX: This was about an hour after Jessica Lynch's mission.
WIAN: But back home there was trouble.
COX: I got a chance to make a phone call, and, you know, I basically asked how things are going? She said not so good.
WIAN: His wife told him their marriage was over, but his mission in Iraq wasn't.
COX: It was real tough. You got to draw the line somewhere between personal and professional. And I'm pretty good at doing that, and when I get, you know, put on my flight gear and get the plane started up, my mind is focused on what I got to do.
WIAN: Now home without his wife and son, Staff Sergeant Cox says his marriage couldn't survive two lengthy combat separations.
COX: That's basically the biggest part. Our lives just grew apart. I respect her for how she's become a mom. She's made my son -- he's brilliant, you know, he's awesome. It's all because of her. But that kind of seemed like the only thing we had in common, was him.
WIAN: Cox will soon spend a 30-day leave with his 3-year-old son and report for training to become a marine recruiter. He'll miss his helicopter.
COX: I just had my last flight on Monday, and I don't know. That's going to be tough. You know? For the last eight years I've been wearing coveralls or a flight suit. Now I'm going to be a full- fledged dress blues all the time. It's going to be a shocker.
WIAN: Nothing like what he's been through so far. Casey Wian, CNN, San Diego.
DOBBS: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Stocks fell today closing out a losing week on Wall Street. The Dow fell nearly 31 points today. The Nasdaq down 25. The S&P 500 down almost 6 1/2 points. Christine Romans is here with the market. Christine a tough week?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: It finally happened, Lou. They have been calling for months now. Finally arrived the slight pullback in what has been an amazing rally since March.
For the Dow this week, it's worst point loss since March yet the average still up 26 percent over the past six months. The worst week for the S&P all year, but also a 26 percent rally since March. But look at the Nasdaq, it got slammed this week but still up 43 percent since the low from March. Now, a range of sentiment indicators turned soft. A six-month stock market rally not overcoming the worries about the job market. Yes, Americans are buying homes and cars at a record pace, but it's taking more to entice them. And we heard from Wal-Mart this week that there are spending sparks around paycheck time. And that is not a very good sign.
Meanwhile the bond market is in a six week long rally. Its longest in a year, taking the 10 year note yield to a two-month low. And to cap off, Lou, what has been a horrendous couple of weeks for at the New York Stock Exchange, the AFL-CIO today has called personally for Ken Langone resignation from the NYSE board.
DOBBS: Just Ken Langone's?
ROMANS: Just Ken Langone.
DOBBS: I hate to break this to the AFL-CIO, but there are bigger plans in the works with that board. 27 members?
ROMANS: Indeed. Well, there's only 26 now, because Dick Grasso's not on that board any more. It's safe to say, there will be a lot fewer people on that board in a few months than there are right now, Lou.
DOBBS: John Reed in town. Won't be bag to 27 with him?
ROMANS: Well, he just got in town today, Lou. He literally walked in the Stock Exchange today.
DOBBS: The AFL-CIO needs crank up its reform initiatives. All right.
ROMANS: All right.
DOBBS: Thanks a lot.
One would think that law makers, certainly, around the country would be focusing their efforts on any number of critical issues in this country. But judging by some new laws, that is simply not the case. Instead it seems, a lot of energy -- we mean a lot of energy -- is going into laws, that at the very least reflect questionable priorities. Kitty Pilgrim has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It seems to be the season for silly laws. A Los Angeles City Council has suddenly decided to crack down on strip clubs. The new rule, lap dancers have to stay six feet away from customers. How does that work? Well, they say, it will cut down on prostitution.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't we have more serious things to do than waste time and money on lap dancers? Because if -- we weren't supposed to have lap dancer, God wouldn't have invented lap dancers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody has too much time on their hands. What's the point?
PILGRIM: In Seattle, Initiative 75 says the police should make recreational pot smokers low priority. Okay. Compared to what? Homicide? Many expect they do that already.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think it's it's as serious an issue as a lot of other things that they could be concentrating their time on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a law that's supposed to send a message. I'm not sure what message it's trying to send.
PILGRIM (voice-over): Taking the word "french" out of french fries was once a hot priority in Washington at the cafeteria for the U.S. House of Representatives. They were officially relabeled "freedom fries." Now they want to reverse it, a high order of business for a side order.
But New York takes the cake on silly summonses. This summer, a pregnant woman got a ticket for sitting down on the subway steps, a man for sitting on a milk crate on the side of a sidewalk, and a store owner for too many words on his sign.
(on camera): Bringing order out of chaos in society is the function of laws, but it seems these days we're micromanaging the minutia.
Kitty Pilgrim, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining us now, newsmakers, the three leading magazines -- business magazines in this country, Steve Forbes, editor in chief of "Forbes" magazine; Bill Powell, senior writer at "Fortune": Steve Shepard, editor-in-chief, "BusinessWeek."
Gentlemen, good to have you gentlemen here.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Worst performance for the market at least, in Dow terms, in just about six months. Is the bear market reasserting itself here, Steve?
STEVE FORBES, "": Well, what you might say is stocks went down a Snow slope. John Snow must be a secret agent of Howard Dean, going to the G-7 and trashing the dollar. Every time you trash the dollar like that, market takes a hit, and if they do it long enough, they'll hurt the economy itself.
DOBBS: So the weak dollar is U.S. government policy now, Bill?
BILL POWELL, "FORTUNE": I have to say I was a little confused by the G-7 statement this week, because it's not clear whether it is or isn't. DOBBS: Well, what do you think, Steve? Because is everybody trying to define precisely what the treasury secretary was accomplishing in Beijing. He goes off to G-7 and takes on the dollar, which is always a monumentally bad idea for any treasury secretary.
STEVE SHEPARD, "BUSINESSWEEK": Let's give him the benefit of the doubt for a moment and say we due tore a correction anyway.
DOBBS: That's the truth. It's been an amazing run.
SHEPARD: The market is not going to do this ever. So I that's a fair statement.
On the other hand, I think it's also true that he didn't help the cause.
DOBBS: Well, helping causes -- California debates, Arnold Schwarzenegger appears at this juncture to have done very well, has won the support of a lot of Republican Party chairmen, all the county chairmen, other candidates, the man who started the recall. Is it over?
SHEPARD: I don't know. It's still -- you know, two votes, and it's not so clear. I think that the Republicans will consolidate support behind Arnold, and McClintock will probably drop out. So that will enhance his chances, if they recall Gray Davis, which probably they would.
DOBBS: What do you -- what do you make of the impact on business, the economy in California as a result of this election? Anything positive? Is this going reverse what has an anti-business atmosphere California for some time?
POWELL: Well I think that depends on who gets elected.
DOBBS: Well, I'm asking you to forecast and project that. This is not an easy test here.
POWELL: I think -- I think probably, if Schwarzenegger gets elected, that you will see substantive changes in California economic policy, particularly in ways that would reduce the costs of state regulation on business.
DOBBS: Steve, are you part of Arnie's army?
FORBES: Yes. I was one of those who endorsed him. And -- so I'm not hedging bets. I think Gray Davis is out, and rightly so. The real circus happened before this recall with the wrecking of the state's finances, the most powerful state in the union, they managed to wreck finances. And I think Republicans are now rallying around Arnold. He didn't win the debate in terms of points, but he did well enough to show that he had substance. and I think that's all he needed to do.
DOBBS: Ten Democratic candidates for the presidential nomination. Which are you supporting in that contest, Steve? FORBES: Well, I have to say, I hope Howard Dean gets it because that's one candidate who will lose no matter how bad the economy is next year.
So -- but I think in that debate, actually, John Kerry did very well. And I think Gephardt made an appeal to the left which he thinks may save him in Iowa.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Are we to parse your statement about no matter how bad economy is next year...
FORBES: I think the economy actually, assuming John Snow behaves himself, which seems to be a big "if" -- he, you know, lurched in China and then came back and did it again. You know -- they have to housetrain him. I don't know what they have to do. But assuming they don't trash the dollar, the economy will grow 4 to 5 percent next year. And so Bush will win against any Democrat.
DOBBS: Are you...
FORBES: But Dean, I think, would be -- except for the fringe candidates -- would be the weakest.
(CROSSTALK)
SHEPARD: Yes, that's right. You got to look at what happens to unemployment, particularly in those key states in the Middle West that have a lot of swing voters. And the economy can grow at 4 or 5 percent and still unemployment will not come down all that much. So that could be a problem for -- I -- for Bush. I do think that Dean would be the weakest candidate against Bush. We haven't said word one yet tonight about Wesley Clark, who is the real wild card.
DOBBS: Well that word we're going to take up -- well, actually two words, Wesley Clark -- when we come back from this commercial break. So just give us just a moment.
A reminder to vote in tonight's poll: "How should the United States deal with illegal immigrants?" Enforce border security? Give all illegal aliens amnesty? Maintain the status quo? Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results just a little later in the show.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back with the newsmakers, and Steve Shepard was just wanting to talk about two words -- Wes Clark.
SHEPARD: The candidate from central casting, Lou!
DOBBS: Well, there's a salvo... SHEPARD: No, I -- look, I think in the debate he said, Look, I've only been in this nine day. I don't have a fully thought out program on this, that and the other thing. That'll be fine just for now. But he's going to start coming forth with programs and ideas, which I think he'll do and then we'll see what happens, whether he can raise the money, put together a staff. It's really too early to say.
DOBBS: Your thoughts?
POWELL: He's a -- he's a smart guy. But it is tough to do -- to do that on the fly. And as he showed right out of the gate with his bollixed (ph) answer about, Would you support the resolution in Iraq or not? You got to have crisp answers at the ready, as Steve knows, having gone through this drill. And I'm not sure he's going to get there.
FORBES: And Rush Limbaugh was right. This is George McClellan 140 years later who ran against Lincoln as a general. Everyone thought he was the ideal candidate among the Democrats, and when he got into the heat of a political battle, he did no better there than he did on the battlefield.
DOBBS: Is it fair to say, no matter how talented and terrific Rush Limbaugh is, that he's not exactly a passionate analyst of the Democratic Party's...
FORBES: This one...
(CROSSTALK)
FORBES: Well-aimed.
DOBBS: Ten candidates. The one name that's not being mentioned but looming large is the 11th, Hillary Clinton. People keep saying it's just -- you know, it's silly to think that she would even think about running before 2008. But if this presidential approval ratings nosediving, wouldn't she be equally silly -- perhaps sillier -- to give over this nomination to someone who could potentially hold the job for eight years? Bill?
POWELL: I'm going to take the senator at her word. And she has said, no consistently.
DOBBS: Do you do that often with senators?
POWELL: Not that often. But I think in this case, I think she's not going to run. I would be stunned, in fact, if she changed her mind.
SHEPARD: I agree with bill and also I don't think it's a good idea for her to run, because she will have gone back on a campaign promise that she was going to serve out her term in the Senate. I think she's better off doing that. I don't think the Democrats -- the Democrats will put forward somebody who will run a credible race against Bush and I don't think she's going to get into it.
DOBBS: Is it one of these ten?
SHEPARD: Yes.
DOBBS: Okay. We've got you on the record on two.
FORBES: I think one reason she urged Clark to get in the race was to stop Howard Dean or at least slow him down, so she can see if those polls continue to crater. What she doesn't want to have happen, is what happened in 1992, where all the biggies in the party stayed away, her husband stayed in. She's a biggy. She doesn't want to be on the sideline if this thing really opens up.
SHEPARD: So you think she'll get in?
FORBES: If by Thanksgiving Bush's approval ratings are way down, I think she'll do it.
SHEPARD: Despite what might happen on the Democratic side?
FORBES: If she goes in, since Howard Dean has been slowed down, Clark temporarily has a lead, it opens up possibilities for her.
SHEPARD: I don't think it will play out that way, but you may be right.
FORBES: It depends on the polls. That's exactly...
DOBBS: This is one of those occasions in which I agree with Steve on this issue.
SHEPARD: Which Steve?
DOBBS: I'm sorry -- Steve Forbes. I'm so often in agreement with you. But the fact is, this is, the dynamics are changing rapidly. I think that it's a good, strong likelihood.
Let's turn to the poverty report today, normally released Tuesday. For some reason came out on a Friday. I wonder if someone wanted to distract editors from giving it the attention it deserves. 34 million Americans below the poverty line. How concerned should we be?
FORBES: I think like the unemployment rate, the poverty indicator is lagging indicator.
DOBBS: Certainly.
FORBES: And next year, as the jobs start to get created and starting to happen already amongst small businesses, which hasn't registered at the federal government yet, I don't think it's going to be a cutting issue. But if unemployment goes up next year, than deficit, everything, will be on the table.
DOBBS: 34 million people. That's about 10 million more people than live in Iraq. SHEPARD: The message, to me is, how important economic growth is, and particularly the kind of economic growth when he in the 1990s, where the poverty rate came down to the lowest in a generation. Black unemployment rate the lowest ever recorded. Hispanic rate the lowest recorded. We need to get back to growth policies that will spur job creation, and income increases at the low end which we had in the '90s.
DOBBS: Beyond the stimulus of tax cuts.
SHEPARD: Well, there are various ways to do it. But there was a different what happened in the boom of the 90s and what happened in the boom of the '80s. We did not get income up at the low end during the 80s. We did in the '90s. and I think that's really worth look at.
POWELL: I think that if you want to run growth policy, it's hard for me to think about what we have now other than growth policies. You have deficits, you have tax cuts, you have a weaker dollar. This is a go for growth in advance of an election year. We don't grow in this economy, we never will.
DOBBS: I was thinking of a number of the Democratic candidates talking about growth in jobs policies. I don't know what any mortal could do more than what has been attempted here. Now, we can talk about how wise it is to drive these deficits and the impact, but stimulus is one thing we don't need more of.
We have been reporting on the loss of jobs that are being exported, outsourcing all over the world this week. How concerned are you, gentlemen about this? The HB-1 visas, L-1 visas, the fact companies are driving quickly to outsource their costs?
FORBES: There have obviously been abuses where people have been brought in at lower wages than the people they're replacing. That's against the law and that should be prosecuted. There's a lot though, we can do here at home to make manufacturing more competitive again. We have one of the worst tax codes for business. Depreciation schedules and the like. A lot of things we can do to stimulate this thing.
SHEPARD: I'm not as alarmed about it as some people. We live in a global economy. If we get decent growth, as we have in the past we will get growth creation in the United States, and those jobs that do go overseas won't matter quite as much.
We're in a slowdown now and we haven't come out of it completely. That's what you're seeing.
POWELL: I agree. I think the job creation is the issue, and once you get that lagging indicator going, this issue will fade. I really do think that's right.
FORBES: But long-term, we've got a workers' comp problem, healthcare problem. That hurts competitiveness.
DOBBS: Bill, Steve, Steve -- gentlemen, thank you very much.
The results of our poll tonight, the question, how should the United States deal with the issue of illegal immigrants? 82 percent of you said increase border security. 14 percent said, give all illegal aliens amnesty, 3 percent said, maintain the status quo.
Let's take a look now at your thoughts. Many of you wrote in about our series of special reports "Exporting America" and my interview last night with Congressman Adam Smith.
Joe Ride of Atlanta, Georgia said, "I love it when you don't allow the smarmy politicians to get away with misleading your viewers.
Neil of Phoenix, Arizona, "Exporting America has been a breath of fresh air. Sadly, no other major network or cable news program that I know of is probing this unprecedented threat to the backbone of the U.S. middle class?"
Bob Lambert in Chicago, Illinois "Your relentless coverage of the exporting of jobs is inspiring to the people facing this in their lives."
Lisa in Ocean, New Jersey is one of them. She wrote, "I wanted to thank you for your segment on exporting America. I will be an unemployeed I.T. worker next Friday."
Jerry of Woodenville, Washington. "As a laid off Boeing worker, I was appalled with congressman Adam Smith suggesting I be retrained. What kind of training does he recommend for a 57 year old with MBA/BSAE degrees and 28 years of Boeing experience? My sales career at Boeing was outsourced to a low cost Hungarian contract worker who I unknowingly trained."
John of Danbury, Connecticut, "Hey Lou, here's a notion. How about corporate America outsourcing CEO jobs overseas. Companies would save millions in salary, perks, compensation and stock options."
And Mary Ann Moran of New York wrote about the freedom ride, "isn't it ironic that those illegal aliens, people who have broken laws by entering this country illegally and broke our laws by working without authorization, are demanding that they be treated fairly under the law."
They want freedom from our laws they break. When does it end.
We love hearing from you always. Please email us at loudobbs@CNN.com. That's our show for tonight and we thank you for being with us. Monday we begin another series of special reports called the "Great American Giveaway."
We begin way look at American citizenship. The director of Citizenship and Immigration Services for the Department of Homeland Security is our guest. Please join us. For all of us here, have a very pleasant weekend. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
END
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Flooding Overseas; Wesley Clark Temporarily Ahead In Polls>
Aired September 26, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, "Exporting America." What's being done to keep your job in this country? The answer will shock you.
"Heroes": the story tonight of a Marine who has fought against America's enemies in Afghanistan and Iraq, but who lost a battle at home.
In "News Makers" tonight, the editors of "BusinessWeek," "Fortune," and "Forbes" on week in our political economy.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, September 26. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, President Bush and Russian President Putin are beginning a critical two-day summit at Camp David. At the top of their agenda is Iraq. President Bush wants Russian support for a United Nations resolution authorizing a multinational force in Iraq. But the two leaders remain far apart over the issue of Iran. The United States says Russian technology is helping Iran develop nuclear weapons.
Senior White House correspondent John King has the story -- John¯
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as that delicate diplomacy gets under way up at Camp David, more of a political firestorm as well here in Washington over the president's plans for reconstruction of Iraq. Let us begin there.
Mr. Putin arriving at Camp David a short time ago. As you noted, differences on Iraq and Iran, but the White House is heartened by the fact that President Putin comes to Camp David -- and he arrived a short time ago -- saying that he wants to reach a middle ground with President Bush on the issue of a new Security Council resolution, the Russian president even saying he does not rule out Russian troops at some point joining international forces in Iraq.
So the White House heartened by that. Now, Iran is a difficult issue, a contentious issue between these two presidents for most of the Bush administration. In recent weeks, the Bush administration does say that Mr. Putin has been putting pressure on the government in Iran to let international inspectors in. The White House says Iran is abusing its relationship with Russia, using nuclear technology it gets from Moscow to develop nuclear weapons. The Kremlin says that is unclear as yet. But the White House is hoping that Mr. Putin at least joins Mr. Bush at a news conference tomorrow and demands that the Iranian government let international inspectors in to look throughout the country at its nuclear weapons program and to put to the test Iran's claims that its nuclear program is only for peaceful electricity purposes -- that key summit up at Camp David.
Back here in Washington today, the administration conceding publicly that it might not get all of what it wants in the debate over postwar spending in Iraq. At issue, mostly, the president's $20 billion request for reconstruction in Iraq. Mr. Bush says all of that should be grants. Many in Congress say, no, much of that money should are paid back by Iraq.
And today, the White House press secretary, Scott McClellan, opened the door to a compromise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We're continuing to fight for the package as we outlined it and as we presented it to Congress. But, obviously, we recognize this is a process where we work together on it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, as Congress looked at the fine print, this is one reason many are saying this should be loans, not grants. There is $9 million in this bill to develop a zip code postal system for Iraq, $4 million in this bill to bring a telephone area code system to Iraq; 40 garbage trucks would be paid for in this bill at a cost of $50,000 each.
Many in Congress are saying that is not why they authorized this president to go to war in Iraq. They do not believe American taxpayers should foot the bill for that. They believe, ultimately, Iraqi oil revenue should pay for it. The fight now, Lou, what percentage of that $20 billion in reconstruction will be grants and what will be loans? This president facing some tough sledding in Congress -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, two polls this week showing the president's approval rating dropping to the lowest level since he was in office. What's the reaction there at the White House? Concern?
KING: They are deeply concerned. They also are heartened by the fact that we are in an odd-numbered year, not in the presidential election year just yet.
They believe two factors, the controversy over the policy in Iraq and the continuing mixed data about the U.S. economy, they say, if a year from now, the situation in Iraq looks better, the new government is about to get up and running, and if the U.S. economy is back up, the president will be just fine. But, certainly, they are worried. This is the lowest point this president has been at in his 32 months in office.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much -- John King, our senior White House correspondent.
Well, as John just reported, the White House today strongly defended the president's request for that $87 billion for reconstruction in Iraq. The top U.S. civilian in Iraq, Paul Bremer, spent much of the week on Capitol Hill answering tough questions about the administration's policies in that country.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has that story -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, Paul Bremer wrapped up his week with a last-ditch pitch here at the Pentagon to the press corps, again trying to make the case for why that $20 billion should be in a grant, not a loan. He said, the money is not a nice-to-have, but a must-have.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: And the proposition behind the $20 billion is that, if we don't succeed in the reconstruction effort in Iraq, there is a very real risk, indeed, I think a likelihood, that Iraq will, because of the continued instability and poverty, become the kind of breeding ground for terrorism that we've seen in other countries in the last 20 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, Bremer does hope that, by October, Iraq will be able to get its oil revenue, its oil production, back up to about three million barrels a day. That would produce, over a year, about $20 billion in revenue for Iraq and a surplus of maybe $4 billion or $5 billion. And that's why some members in Congress are eying that as a possible source of funding.
And, Lou, one other item today, sources telling CNN that the Pentagon is close to reaching a deal that would have South Korean troops lead up a third multinational division in Iraq. And that could possibly relieve pressure on the move to call up more reserves next year -- Lou.
DOBBS: A full division of South Korean troops?
MCINTYRE: No. They would provide the leadership and the structure for the division, as well as several thousand troops. But there are other countries that have indicated they would donate troops if someone else led the division. And Pentagon sources say they're close to reaching some sort of an agreement with South Korea.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
Terrorists today killed a soldier with a rocked-propelled grenade in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk. Two other soldiers were wounded. Troops supported by tanks launched a major security operation after that attack. There are no reports of any terrorists being captured or killed.
Central Command today said 307 Americans have been killed in Iraq since the beginning of the war against Saddam Hussein, 191 of them in combat, 116 in accidents. Another 1,663 troops have been wounded or injured, 323 of those -- all but 323 of them, rather, by hostile fire.
More violence today in the West Bank. An Israeli adult and a baby were killed when a Palestinian gunman barged into a house in a Jewish settlement south of Hebron. The gunman was shot and killed. The incident took place as Jews began ushering in the Jewish new year, Rosh Hashanah.
The United States, Russia, Europe and the United Nations today expressed what they termed great concern over the escalating violence between Palestinians and Israelis. The group is trying to revive the road map to peace that has all but collapsed because of the growing violence.
Senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth has the story -- Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Lou, thank you.
The start of a new year, Rosh Hashanah, for the Jewish people, a new year, but, surprise, no new Middle East peace agreement. There was a meeting today of the Quartet. This is the main international group trying to come up with a permanent Middle East peace solution. You see Kofi Annan. The U.N. is part of it, along with the United States, the European Union, and Russia.
In town from the U.S., Secretary of State Colin Powell. Some familiar language: Each party must do more to address immediately and simultaneously the core issues. But if you read the tea leaves, the language was harsher on the Palestinians. The statement said, the Quartet members must condemn the vicious terror attacks of August and September, calling on the Palestinians to take immediate decisive steps against individuals and groups conducting terrorist activities.
As for Israel, Secretary-General Kofi Annan:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: The quartet members recognize Israel's legitimate right to self-defense in the face of terrorist attacks against its citizens. In this context and in the context of international humanitarian law, they call on the government of Israel to exert maximum efforts to the avoid civilian casualties.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: It becomes very difficult to move forward and to expect either side to move forward if it is against the backdrop of continued terror on the part of organizations such as Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
(END VIDEO CLIP) ROTH: Diplomats telling CNN that Yasser Arafat continues to be uncooperative, refusing to empower the new incoming prime minister, and sources saying that there are still trouble ahead, Secretary- General Annan saying that these small steps must be undertaken. If not, all of us will pay a heavy price.
DOBBS: Expressions of concern, Richard, admonishment, even regrets, but no new initiative.
ROTH: No. The diplomats try, try, try. And they talk about future meetings. They were all in New York for this General Assembly debate, but nothing really new moving it forward.
DOBBS: Senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth, thank you.
Coming up next: Presidential hopeful General Wesley Clark campaigns on the economy in a state that could -- could -- make or break the race. Dan Lothian reports from New Hampshire.
And millions of American jobs flooding overseas. The government says it's not their fault. It's a problem simply for the individuals who are victimized. Lisa Sylvester will have the story.
And business students get down and dirty with the Marines on the toughest course they'll ever take on. Peter Viles has the story.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Retire General Wesley Clark today headed to New Hampshire, following last night's debate here in New York. Clark failed to offer many specifics during the debate. For that matter, no one else offered many themselves. But he did attack parts of the president's tax cut, saying he has a simpler, fairer tax code in mind.
Our Dan Lothian is in Henniker, New Hampshire, now with the story -- Dan.
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, we're about 17 weeks or so away from the New Hampshire primary. Of course, this is the critical primary state. Wesley Clark, as you mentioned, made his first trip to the Granite State, as he tries win over voters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't mind shaking your hand.
LOTHIAN (voice-over): One day after his first presidential debate, retired General Wesley Clark hit the campaign trail with confidence.
WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It was terrific. I loved it. It was just wonderful. LOTHIAN: At this Manchester, New Hampshire, diner, Clark wasted no time taking a swipe at what he told potential supporters is a failed Bush administration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you feel about Bush's policies?
CLARK: Well, I'm very concerned. I think his foreign policy is a disaster. He doesn't have a strategy that will make us safer.
LOTHIAN: Late to the race, but first in some national polls, Clark is trying to capitalize on his momentum, pushing his $100 billion job plan, while some say still tweaking his position on many key issues, something that's drawn a lot of criticism.
CLARK: And I will be coming with a set of policy proposals just as quick as I can do it. I've been in the race about 10 days. And I'm proud to say, I have got a better jobs program in 10 days than George Bush has had in 2 1/2 years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He hasn't formulated all his answers right now. But based on the information that he's given so far, he seems to be able to make correct choices. He seems to be a very smart man. And I have confidence that he'll come up with the right solutions.
LOTHIAN: But Clark, who has admitted voting for Reagan and Nixon, is also having to answer questions about his commitment to the Democratic Party.
CLARK: I was going to be either a very, very lonely Republican, or I was going to be a very happy Democrat. And I am a Democrat. And I'm proud to be one. I'm a new Democrat.
LOTHIAN: As Clark works the sidewalks of Manchester's commercial district, he's trying to play catchup in the backyard of two other top-tier candidates, Massachusetts Senator John Kerry and former Vermont Governor Howard Dean, who currently leads the polls in New Hampshire.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LOTHIAN: According to the most recent poll here in New Hampshire, Dean leads with 35 percent of the vote, Kerry 22 percent, and Clark 11 percent. Clark, of course, will taking part here at the New England College in Henniker, taking part in a town hall meeting later tonight -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dan, thank you very much, Dan Lothian reporting from Henniker. We appreciate it.
Turning now to the other election, that one over in California. The recall race now fewer than two weeks away. Arnold Schwarzenegger leading the pack, in fund-raising, certainly. Schwarzenegger has spent more $13 million so far, nearly $4 million remaining in cash. Among the donors, former President George Bush giving $1,000.
Meanwhile, the leading Democrat in that race, Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante, has raised more than $9 million, although he has now less than $200,000 remaining in cash.
Another prominent Republican today officially supporting Arnold Schwarzenegger. Congressman Darrell Issa, the man who bankrolled that original recall effort, siding with Schwarzenegger, saying he will take California in the right direction. Governor Gray Davis challenged Schwarzenegger to a debate. The Schwarzenegger campaign quickly rejected the offer, saying -- quote -- "It's official. The Gray Davis death spiral has commenced." He'd be better served, they said, to debate some of the 1.6 Californians who signed petitions to recall him.
Our Bob Franken in California following the recall race -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the big mystery of the day was, would Arnold Schwarzenegger debate Gray Davis? Of course, the answer was no.
And what we're doing is getting a spin that is really remarkable, even by those of us who are quite used to the political spin. Both sides are trying to say that it shows their campaign is health and the other one is not. The Schwarzenegger people are calling people and saying that, in fact, as they said on the record, that Gray Davis is in a death spiral, this is a desperation ploy.
But the Davis people saying that their polling is showing that it is tightening up, that they believe that they have an excellent chance of beating the recall and making the Schwarzenegger candidacy, as well as 134 others who are out there -- and about 25 write-ins, by the way -- making them all irrelevant, because, of course, if the recall is defeated, there is no election for a replacement candidate.
Nevertheless, Schwarzenegger continues to accumulate the endorsements. You pointed out that Darrell Issa, the congressman, came on board today. What's interesting about all this is that so many of these endorsements come from people who are really ideologically closer to the man they're trying to get out of the race. I'm talking about state Senator Tom McClintock.
McClintock is the man who is considered the spoiler, perhaps the best friend that the Democrats could have, if, in fact, he siphons enough votes away to allow a Democrat to stay in the statehouse or to win the recall and go into the statehouse. But McClintock right now is saying he's in the race to stay. He's even taken his meager amounts of money and has bought some television time.
But, Lou, there's plenty of time for him to change his mind. And that is something his fellow Republicans are working very hard on him to do -- Lou.
DOBBS: The latest numbers, Bob, the polls that are showing -- a week ago, they were showing some ebbing support for the recall. What is the latest to show us?
FRANKEN: Well, we've seen the latest public polls. So now I'm talking about internal polls. And those that I have had some description of say that there continues to be an ebbing support for the recall.
To be honest about it, it's too close to tell. The last couple of weeks of the campaign are going to be vital. Whichever ones can put out the best commercials and also whichever side can get out the most people -- that is to say, get-out-the-vote campaign. It's all fundamental, Lou, when it's all over.
DOBBS: Is there what you would call rising indifference in California to this election?
FRANKEN: I'll tell you what. I don't see indifference at all. In fact, some of the highest ratings they've ever had for a political program occurred on Wednesday night, with that debate/free-for-all.
DOBBS: OK. Bob Franken, thank you very much.
Coming up: While American jobs flood overseas, a U.S. government official says it's not a problem for the economy. Lisa Sylvester reports.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: America faces an unprecedented crisis over the export of jobs overseas, not just in manufacturing, but in other industries.
According to one study, more than one million white-collar jobs are likely to disappear from this country in the next 15 years. We asked the administration and Congress both what, if anything, they're doing to keep jobs in this country. Some of the answers may well surprise you.
Lisa Sylvester has our special report -- Lisa.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as jobs continue to flee over seas, the Bush administration and Congress are divided over how big of a problem it is and what should be done about it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The textile business was one of the first to move jobs overseas. Gus Piccinni is a clothing manufacturer in Maryland. He says it's almost impossible to compete with foreign textile companies. He pays his workers $10.50 an hour. A worker in China might get 50 cents an hour.
GUS PICCINNI, TEXTILE MANUFACTURER: I can beat delivery, hands down. But I cannot beat price.
SYLVESTER: Now, it seems, no one is immune. Call centers, information technology, and financial services are all shipping jobs to countries like India and China.
Congress has proposed legislation to address the problem. One bill would give income tax credits to companies to keep jobs here. Buy-America legislation would require the Pentagon to use more domestic suppliers. Another would limit the number of visas issued to foreign workers. And yet another threatens to race tariff levels against China.
But the Bush administration opposes many of these measures, arguing the exporting of jobs is not a problem for the larger U.S. economy.
GRANT ALDONAS, UNDERSECRETARY OF COMMERCE FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE: It's a problem more for the individuals who are caught in that competitive vice than it is for the economy as a whole. When we think about a manufacturing crisis, there is a crisis in certain industries.
SYLVESTER: And to address that, the Bush administration prefers to emphasize tax cuts, even though they may have unintended consequences.
CLYDE PRESTOWITZ, ECONOMIC STRATEGY INSTITUTE: What is finally beginning to be recognized is that, while the tax cuts do provide a certain amount of stimulus, a lot of that stimulus is actually going to buy products that are coming here from overseas.
SYLVESTER: Treasury Secretary John Snow traveled to China last month to pressure the Chinese government to float its currency, a move that would make American products more competitive. But he was unable to convince the Chinese to take immediate action. Manufacturers say the loss of jobs is spreading to so many different sectors, workers have nowhere to turn.
AUGGIE TANTILLO, AMERICAN MANUFACTURING TRADE ACTION COALITION: Two and a half million workers in the manufacturing sector here in the United States have lost their job since January of 2001. We are looking at at least that many, if not more, over the next 2 1/2 years.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Commerce Department is forming a team to track and investigate unfair trade practices. And President Bush is creating a new position, a manufacturing czar, who will work with business leaders to come up with a strategy for saving jobs -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you -- Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.
The manufacturing czar that Lisa Sylvester mentioned will have a massive undertaking on his hands. More than three million American jobs will be exported in the next 11 years. An overwhelming majority of those jobs, research says, will go to India, the Philippines and China. Among the American companies now shipping the most jobs offshore, General Electric, 20,000 jobs; Oracle, doubling employment in India to 6,000; Intel, 3,000 workers again in India by 2005.
Back in this country, more than 1.5 million Americans fell into poverty last year, according to the latest census; 34.6 million people, 12 percent of the American population, now live below the poverty line, which is $18,000 for a family of four. The Census Bureau reports the median income among all Americans declined for a second straight year, now $42,000. Households headed by foreign-born noncitizens saw the biggest decline in income, at nearly 4 percent.
Earlier this week, we reported to you an amazing story about a crosscountry bus trip by immigrant workers to draw attention to undocumented aliens and their rights in this country. Incredibly, those workers want an amnesty for millions of aliens who have entered this country illegally. Today, the U.S. Border Patrol stopped two of the buses in west Texas and they asked the passengers to show their identification.
The bus riders refused to show their documentation and, according to their spokeswoman, engaged in what they call nonviolent resistance. The buses were then allowed to continue their journey. The Border Patrol did not immediately return any call for comment.
And that brings us to the topic of tonight's poll. The question: How should the United States deal with the question of illegal immigrants? Enforce border security, give all illegal aliens amnesty, maintain the status quo? Please cast your vote on the issue at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results coming up later in the show.
"Heroes," our feature series -- this week, one Marine's remarkable story of bravery, sacrifice and homecoming -- next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: One of the most storied military training grounds is the Officer Candidate School of the U.S. Marine Corps in Quantico, Virginia. It's where generations of Marine leaders have honed their skills. Today, the grounds welcomed an unlikely bunch, second-year MBA students from the Wharton School. They spent the day literally down in the mud learning leadership from Marines.
Peter Viles has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Susan Park (ph) is not a Marine, and she never will be. She's a business student at Wharton. But today's lesson was leadership. And it was taught by the United States Marine Corps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, good morning.
STUDENTS: Good morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We sounded like we're tired. Good morning!
STUDENTS: Good morning!
VILES: The drill, combat training and problem solving on the Marine Corps' famous leadership reaction course.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are so close. You are so close.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can do it. Let's go! Come on!
VILES (on camera): There's a lot corporate America could learn about leadership from the Marines: discipline, teamwork, sacrifice. But there's another variable, an intangible the Marines stress that corporate America could use a little of. And that's character.
(voice-over): Part of the point of these exercises is to fail, sometimes again and again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fast! There you go. Good job. All right. Let's go.
VILES: The marines want to see if you get back up.
COL. LOU RACHAL, MARINE OFFICER CANDIDATE SCHOOL: We've seen some people here who come here and fail the events, all then of the sudden start going downhill. We've seen some who fail and they don't let that stop them. They try to -- try to lift themselves back up and find another solution.
VILES: For MBA students, it's a test they can't study for. A course where theory does not matter.
EVAN WITTENBERG, WHARTON LEADERSHIP PROGRAM: The marines really teach our students -- our students sometimes get stuck in analysis paralysis, looking for the 100 percent solution. And what the marines teach us is sometimes a 70 percent solution, as the marines say, violently executed, well executed, is better.
VILES: Susan Park had a tough day. She fell hard from a rope, spent a lot time in the mud, but she stayed focused on the day's lesson.
SUSAN PARK, WHARTON STUDENT: Quick decision-making. And when there's a setback, you overcome it, and you continue to press on.
VILES: Somewhere in the mud, the marines have a lesson for all of corporate America, humility and perseverance. Peter Viles, CNN, Quantico, Virginia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Nearly 200 troops serving in Iraq today returned to this country for two weeks of rest and relaxation. The troops landed in Baltimore-Washington International Airport in Maryland. They are the first troops to take part in the military's largest home leave program since the Vietnam War. These are some of their stories.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've been waiting to see her since -- I don't even remember when I left. Waiting to see her...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: March 22. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Since March 22. It's great. I've been waiting a long time. Waiting a long time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to go home, because my wife right now is in the hospital. She's going have my little boy. I want it try to get an early ticket, see if I can change it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It feels great. It's just kind of overwhelming right now. I'm going to get good food near a minute and sleep in a bed tonight. Can't beat that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A long waited. They told us about this about four days ago. Five days ago. And it seemed like about a year since then.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see my kids, and spend time with them. My mom, my dad and try and go out and see as many sights as I can. When you're stuck in the desert, there's not much to see but dirt and sand and sun. That's it. But here, there's a lot of beauty here that a lot you take for granted.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS; And welcome home. Tonight in our feature series "Heroes" the story of a man who took part in two of the most daring rescues in military history. After serving bravely in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq, Marine Corps Staff Sergeant Bryan Cox is safely home, but his service took a toll on his family. Casey Wian has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Staff Sergeant Bryan Cox is a CH-53 helicopter crew chief, responsible for maintaining these 14,000 horsepower crew and cargo movers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It can carry up to 55 fully loaded combat marines.
WIAN: Less than a month after September 11 he flew into Pakistan and Afghanistan. His crew rescued a dozen special forces and Northern Alliance forces involved in a Blackhawk helicopter crash.
STAFF SGT. BRYAN COX, U.S. MARINE CORPS: That was the first realtime I'd ever seen war. The first person they brought on the plane was a guy that wasn't no older than me, and he was cut up pretty bad. And that's the first time you really realize that it's real.
WIAN: He returned safely to his infant son and fiancee. Quickly they married. Eight months later Cox left again to Iraq with a message for the enemy painted on his helicopter.
COX: I'm a big Metallica fan. I just started putting names of songs. "Ride The Lightning", "Creeping Death," "No Remorse." It's a little pride in your plane...
WIAN: He participated in the rescue of private Jessica Lynch, carrying special forces fighters into hostile fire. Mission accomplished again.
COX: This was about an hour after Jessica Lynch's mission.
WIAN: But back home there was trouble.
COX: I got a chance to make a phone call, and, you know, I basically asked how things are going? She said not so good.
WIAN: His wife told him their marriage was over, but his mission in Iraq wasn't.
COX: It was real tough. You got to draw the line somewhere between personal and professional. And I'm pretty good at doing that, and when I get, you know, put on my flight gear and get the plane started up, my mind is focused on what I got to do.
WIAN: Now home without his wife and son, Staff Sergeant Cox says his marriage couldn't survive two lengthy combat separations.
COX: That's basically the biggest part. Our lives just grew apart. I respect her for how she's become a mom. She's made my son -- he's brilliant, you know, he's awesome. It's all because of her. But that kind of seemed like the only thing we had in common, was him.
WIAN: Cox will soon spend a 30-day leave with his 3-year-old son and report for training to become a marine recruiter. He'll miss his helicopter.
COX: I just had my last flight on Monday, and I don't know. That's going to be tough. You know? For the last eight years I've been wearing coveralls or a flight suit. Now I'm going to be a full- fledged dress blues all the time. It's going to be a shocker.
WIAN: Nothing like what he's been through so far. Casey Wian, CNN, San Diego.
DOBBS: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Stocks fell today closing out a losing week on Wall Street. The Dow fell nearly 31 points today. The Nasdaq down 25. The S&P 500 down almost 6 1/2 points. Christine Romans is here with the market. Christine a tough week?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: It finally happened, Lou. They have been calling for months now. Finally arrived the slight pullback in what has been an amazing rally since March.
For the Dow this week, it's worst point loss since March yet the average still up 26 percent over the past six months. The worst week for the S&P all year, but also a 26 percent rally since March. But look at the Nasdaq, it got slammed this week but still up 43 percent since the low from March. Now, a range of sentiment indicators turned soft. A six-month stock market rally not overcoming the worries about the job market. Yes, Americans are buying homes and cars at a record pace, but it's taking more to entice them. And we heard from Wal-Mart this week that there are spending sparks around paycheck time. And that is not a very good sign.
Meanwhile the bond market is in a six week long rally. Its longest in a year, taking the 10 year note yield to a two-month low. And to cap off, Lou, what has been a horrendous couple of weeks for at the New York Stock Exchange, the AFL-CIO today has called personally for Ken Langone resignation from the NYSE board.
DOBBS: Just Ken Langone's?
ROMANS: Just Ken Langone.
DOBBS: I hate to break this to the AFL-CIO, but there are bigger plans in the works with that board. 27 members?
ROMANS: Indeed. Well, there's only 26 now, because Dick Grasso's not on that board any more. It's safe to say, there will be a lot fewer people on that board in a few months than there are right now, Lou.
DOBBS: John Reed in town. Won't be bag to 27 with him?
ROMANS: Well, he just got in town today, Lou. He literally walked in the Stock Exchange today.
DOBBS: The AFL-CIO needs crank up its reform initiatives. All right.
ROMANS: All right.
DOBBS: Thanks a lot.
One would think that law makers, certainly, around the country would be focusing their efforts on any number of critical issues in this country. But judging by some new laws, that is simply not the case. Instead it seems, a lot of energy -- we mean a lot of energy -- is going into laws, that at the very least reflect questionable priorities. Kitty Pilgrim has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It seems to be the season for silly laws. A Los Angeles City Council has suddenly decided to crack down on strip clubs. The new rule, lap dancers have to stay six feet away from customers. How does that work? Well, they say, it will cut down on prostitution.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't we have more serious things to do than waste time and money on lap dancers? Because if -- we weren't supposed to have lap dancer, God wouldn't have invented lap dancers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody has too much time on their hands. What's the point?
PILGRIM: In Seattle, Initiative 75 says the police should make recreational pot smokers low priority. Okay. Compared to what? Homicide? Many expect they do that already.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think it's it's as serious an issue as a lot of other things that they could be concentrating their time on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a law that's supposed to send a message. I'm not sure what message it's trying to send.
PILGRIM (voice-over): Taking the word "french" out of french fries was once a hot priority in Washington at the cafeteria for the U.S. House of Representatives. They were officially relabeled "freedom fries." Now they want to reverse it, a high order of business for a side order.
But New York takes the cake on silly summonses. This summer, a pregnant woman got a ticket for sitting down on the subway steps, a man for sitting on a milk crate on the side of a sidewalk, and a store owner for too many words on his sign.
(on camera): Bringing order out of chaos in society is the function of laws, but it seems these days we're micromanaging the minutia.
Kitty Pilgrim, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining us now, newsmakers, the three leading magazines -- business magazines in this country, Steve Forbes, editor in chief of "Forbes" magazine; Bill Powell, senior writer at "Fortune": Steve Shepard, editor-in-chief, "BusinessWeek."
Gentlemen, good to have you gentlemen here.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Worst performance for the market at least, in Dow terms, in just about six months. Is the bear market reasserting itself here, Steve?
STEVE FORBES, "": Well, what you might say is stocks went down a Snow slope. John Snow must be a secret agent of Howard Dean, going to the G-7 and trashing the dollar. Every time you trash the dollar like that, market takes a hit, and if they do it long enough, they'll hurt the economy itself.
DOBBS: So the weak dollar is U.S. government policy now, Bill?
BILL POWELL, "FORTUNE": I have to say I was a little confused by the G-7 statement this week, because it's not clear whether it is or isn't. DOBBS: Well, what do you think, Steve? Because is everybody trying to define precisely what the treasury secretary was accomplishing in Beijing. He goes off to G-7 and takes on the dollar, which is always a monumentally bad idea for any treasury secretary.
STEVE SHEPARD, "BUSINESSWEEK": Let's give him the benefit of the doubt for a moment and say we due tore a correction anyway.
DOBBS: That's the truth. It's been an amazing run.
SHEPARD: The market is not going to do this ever. So I that's a fair statement.
On the other hand, I think it's also true that he didn't help the cause.
DOBBS: Well, helping causes -- California debates, Arnold Schwarzenegger appears at this juncture to have done very well, has won the support of a lot of Republican Party chairmen, all the county chairmen, other candidates, the man who started the recall. Is it over?
SHEPARD: I don't know. It's still -- you know, two votes, and it's not so clear. I think that the Republicans will consolidate support behind Arnold, and McClintock will probably drop out. So that will enhance his chances, if they recall Gray Davis, which probably they would.
DOBBS: What do you -- what do you make of the impact on business, the economy in California as a result of this election? Anything positive? Is this going reverse what has an anti-business atmosphere California for some time?
POWELL: Well I think that depends on who gets elected.
DOBBS: Well, I'm asking you to forecast and project that. This is not an easy test here.
POWELL: I think -- I think probably, if Schwarzenegger gets elected, that you will see substantive changes in California economic policy, particularly in ways that would reduce the costs of state regulation on business.
DOBBS: Steve, are you part of Arnie's army?
FORBES: Yes. I was one of those who endorsed him. And -- so I'm not hedging bets. I think Gray Davis is out, and rightly so. The real circus happened before this recall with the wrecking of the state's finances, the most powerful state in the union, they managed to wreck finances. And I think Republicans are now rallying around Arnold. He didn't win the debate in terms of points, but he did well enough to show that he had substance. and I think that's all he needed to do.
DOBBS: Ten Democratic candidates for the presidential nomination. Which are you supporting in that contest, Steve? FORBES: Well, I have to say, I hope Howard Dean gets it because that's one candidate who will lose no matter how bad the economy is next year.
So -- but I think in that debate, actually, John Kerry did very well. And I think Gephardt made an appeal to the left which he thinks may save him in Iowa.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Are we to parse your statement about no matter how bad economy is next year...
FORBES: I think the economy actually, assuming John Snow behaves himself, which seems to be a big "if" -- he, you know, lurched in China and then came back and did it again. You know -- they have to housetrain him. I don't know what they have to do. But assuming they don't trash the dollar, the economy will grow 4 to 5 percent next year. And so Bush will win against any Democrat.
DOBBS: Are you...
FORBES: But Dean, I think, would be -- except for the fringe candidates -- would be the weakest.
(CROSSTALK)
SHEPARD: Yes, that's right. You got to look at what happens to unemployment, particularly in those key states in the Middle West that have a lot of swing voters. And the economy can grow at 4 or 5 percent and still unemployment will not come down all that much. So that could be a problem for -- I -- for Bush. I do think that Dean would be the weakest candidate against Bush. We haven't said word one yet tonight about Wesley Clark, who is the real wild card.
DOBBS: Well that word we're going to take up -- well, actually two words, Wesley Clark -- when we come back from this commercial break. So just give us just a moment.
A reminder to vote in tonight's poll: "How should the United States deal with illegal immigrants?" Enforce border security? Give all illegal aliens amnesty? Maintain the status quo? Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results just a little later in the show.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back with the newsmakers, and Steve Shepard was just wanting to talk about two words -- Wes Clark.
SHEPARD: The candidate from central casting, Lou!
DOBBS: Well, there's a salvo... SHEPARD: No, I -- look, I think in the debate he said, Look, I've only been in this nine day. I don't have a fully thought out program on this, that and the other thing. That'll be fine just for now. But he's going to start coming forth with programs and ideas, which I think he'll do and then we'll see what happens, whether he can raise the money, put together a staff. It's really too early to say.
DOBBS: Your thoughts?
POWELL: He's a -- he's a smart guy. But it is tough to do -- to do that on the fly. And as he showed right out of the gate with his bollixed (ph) answer about, Would you support the resolution in Iraq or not? You got to have crisp answers at the ready, as Steve knows, having gone through this drill. And I'm not sure he's going to get there.
FORBES: And Rush Limbaugh was right. This is George McClellan 140 years later who ran against Lincoln as a general. Everyone thought he was the ideal candidate among the Democrats, and when he got into the heat of a political battle, he did no better there than he did on the battlefield.
DOBBS: Is it fair to say, no matter how talented and terrific Rush Limbaugh is, that he's not exactly a passionate analyst of the Democratic Party's...
FORBES: This one...
(CROSSTALK)
FORBES: Well-aimed.
DOBBS: Ten candidates. The one name that's not being mentioned but looming large is the 11th, Hillary Clinton. People keep saying it's just -- you know, it's silly to think that she would even think about running before 2008. But if this presidential approval ratings nosediving, wouldn't she be equally silly -- perhaps sillier -- to give over this nomination to someone who could potentially hold the job for eight years? Bill?
POWELL: I'm going to take the senator at her word. And she has said, no consistently.
DOBBS: Do you do that often with senators?
POWELL: Not that often. But I think in this case, I think she's not going to run. I would be stunned, in fact, if she changed her mind.
SHEPARD: I agree with bill and also I don't think it's a good idea for her to run, because she will have gone back on a campaign promise that she was going to serve out her term in the Senate. I think she's better off doing that. I don't think the Democrats -- the Democrats will put forward somebody who will run a credible race against Bush and I don't think she's going to get into it.
DOBBS: Is it one of these ten?
SHEPARD: Yes.
DOBBS: Okay. We've got you on the record on two.
FORBES: I think one reason she urged Clark to get in the race was to stop Howard Dean or at least slow him down, so she can see if those polls continue to crater. What she doesn't want to have happen, is what happened in 1992, where all the biggies in the party stayed away, her husband stayed in. She's a biggy. She doesn't want to be on the sideline if this thing really opens up.
SHEPARD: So you think she'll get in?
FORBES: If by Thanksgiving Bush's approval ratings are way down, I think she'll do it.
SHEPARD: Despite what might happen on the Democratic side?
FORBES: If she goes in, since Howard Dean has been slowed down, Clark temporarily has a lead, it opens up possibilities for her.
SHEPARD: I don't think it will play out that way, but you may be right.
FORBES: It depends on the polls. That's exactly...
DOBBS: This is one of those occasions in which I agree with Steve on this issue.
SHEPARD: Which Steve?
DOBBS: I'm sorry -- Steve Forbes. I'm so often in agreement with you. But the fact is, this is, the dynamics are changing rapidly. I think that it's a good, strong likelihood.
Let's turn to the poverty report today, normally released Tuesday. For some reason came out on a Friday. I wonder if someone wanted to distract editors from giving it the attention it deserves. 34 million Americans below the poverty line. How concerned should we be?
FORBES: I think like the unemployment rate, the poverty indicator is lagging indicator.
DOBBS: Certainly.
FORBES: And next year, as the jobs start to get created and starting to happen already amongst small businesses, which hasn't registered at the federal government yet, I don't think it's going to be a cutting issue. But if unemployment goes up next year, than deficit, everything, will be on the table.
DOBBS: 34 million people. That's about 10 million more people than live in Iraq. SHEPARD: The message, to me is, how important economic growth is, and particularly the kind of economic growth when he in the 1990s, where the poverty rate came down to the lowest in a generation. Black unemployment rate the lowest ever recorded. Hispanic rate the lowest recorded. We need to get back to growth policies that will spur job creation, and income increases at the low end which we had in the '90s.
DOBBS: Beyond the stimulus of tax cuts.
SHEPARD: Well, there are various ways to do it. But there was a different what happened in the boom of the 90s and what happened in the boom of the '80s. We did not get income up at the low end during the 80s. We did in the '90s. and I think that's really worth look at.
POWELL: I think that if you want to run growth policy, it's hard for me to think about what we have now other than growth policies. You have deficits, you have tax cuts, you have a weaker dollar. This is a go for growth in advance of an election year. We don't grow in this economy, we never will.
DOBBS: I was thinking of a number of the Democratic candidates talking about growth in jobs policies. I don't know what any mortal could do more than what has been attempted here. Now, we can talk about how wise it is to drive these deficits and the impact, but stimulus is one thing we don't need more of.
We have been reporting on the loss of jobs that are being exported, outsourcing all over the world this week. How concerned are you, gentlemen about this? The HB-1 visas, L-1 visas, the fact companies are driving quickly to outsource their costs?
FORBES: There have obviously been abuses where people have been brought in at lower wages than the people they're replacing. That's against the law and that should be prosecuted. There's a lot though, we can do here at home to make manufacturing more competitive again. We have one of the worst tax codes for business. Depreciation schedules and the like. A lot of things we can do to stimulate this thing.
SHEPARD: I'm not as alarmed about it as some people. We live in a global economy. If we get decent growth, as we have in the past we will get growth creation in the United States, and those jobs that do go overseas won't matter quite as much.
We're in a slowdown now and we haven't come out of it completely. That's what you're seeing.
POWELL: I agree. I think the job creation is the issue, and once you get that lagging indicator going, this issue will fade. I really do think that's right.
FORBES: But long-term, we've got a workers' comp problem, healthcare problem. That hurts competitiveness.
DOBBS: Bill, Steve, Steve -- gentlemen, thank you very much.
The results of our poll tonight, the question, how should the United States deal with the issue of illegal immigrants? 82 percent of you said increase border security. 14 percent said, give all illegal aliens amnesty, 3 percent said, maintain the status quo.
Let's take a look now at your thoughts. Many of you wrote in about our series of special reports "Exporting America" and my interview last night with Congressman Adam Smith.
Joe Ride of Atlanta, Georgia said, "I love it when you don't allow the smarmy politicians to get away with misleading your viewers.
Neil of Phoenix, Arizona, "Exporting America has been a breath of fresh air. Sadly, no other major network or cable news program that I know of is probing this unprecedented threat to the backbone of the U.S. middle class?"
Bob Lambert in Chicago, Illinois "Your relentless coverage of the exporting of jobs is inspiring to the people facing this in their lives."
Lisa in Ocean, New Jersey is one of them. She wrote, "I wanted to thank you for your segment on exporting America. I will be an unemployeed I.T. worker next Friday."
Jerry of Woodenville, Washington. "As a laid off Boeing worker, I was appalled with congressman Adam Smith suggesting I be retrained. What kind of training does he recommend for a 57 year old with MBA/BSAE degrees and 28 years of Boeing experience? My sales career at Boeing was outsourced to a low cost Hungarian contract worker who I unknowingly trained."
John of Danbury, Connecticut, "Hey Lou, here's a notion. How about corporate America outsourcing CEO jobs overseas. Companies would save millions in salary, perks, compensation and stock options."
And Mary Ann Moran of New York wrote about the freedom ride, "isn't it ironic that those illegal aliens, people who have broken laws by entering this country illegally and broke our laws by working without authorization, are demanding that they be treated fairly under the law."
They want freedom from our laws they break. When does it end.
We love hearing from you always. Please email us at loudobbs@CNN.com. That's our show for tonight and we thank you for being with us. Monday we begin another series of special reports called the "Great American Giveaway."
We begin way look at American citizenship. The director of Citizenship and Immigration Services for the Department of Homeland Security is our guest. Please join us. For all of us here, have a very pleasant weekend. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
END
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Flooding Overseas; Wesley Clark Temporarily Ahead In Polls>
