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CNN Live Today
Interview With Ronald Kessler
Aired October 01, 2003 - 10:26 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Our next guest this morning is a former investigative reporter and he's the author of some 14 non-fiction books as well. Ronald Kessler's latest book is the "CIA at War: Inside the Secret Campaign Against Terror." The CIA granted him unprecedented access to the workings of the agency.
Mr. Kessler joins us now from CNN's Washington bureau. Glad to have you with us, particularly in the wake of this furor of this story leaks (ph). They're possibly coming from higher officers in the White House. Let me ask you about the contacts that you still have within the CIA. I'm going to guess that you've been talking to them. What are they saying about this internally there?
RONALD KESSLER, AUTHOR: I have sources all over and what I understand is that Novak has confided to a few people that he did get this information from a White House person. In his column today he said administration person. And that this person was not at the highest levels of the White House. And that it was just said in passing, it was not part of some orchestrated campaign to out the CIA officer.
And that it was more in the context of, you know, you should know that since Ambassador Wilson is making all these charges, his wife is a CIA officer, not necessarily knowing that she in fact had been undercover and that revealing her name, therefore, would be illegal and would be a compromise of her.
HARRIS: But what we're hearing now, what's being alleged by Ambassador Wilson and by some others on the sidelines here is that the White House did this, or people in the White House did this in order to pressure him. But also to send a signal to the CIA to perhaps tell people there to get in line.
The people that you've talked to within the CIA, have they said anything at all about taking a message from this?
KESSLER: Well, again, without saying where I get information, we have to keep in mind that Ambassador Wilson is a partisan in all this. In fact, he's mischaracterized his own report about the Niger situation. He's claimed publicly that he said that there was no base for the claim that Saddam Hussein was trying to get uranium there. But in fact his report was very inconclusive and he actually said a businessman told him that, yes, this report was true.
So he is definitely out to get the Bush people and we have to keep that in mind. HARRIS: But, what do you know then, if you can say, about what's being done right now? Tell me what you've heard about what's happening within the CIA right now as this investigation does begin with the FBI.
KESSLER: Well, you know, really, the focus is more the White House. The CIA, for once, is not at the heart of the whole situation, although that is where the big story is, what's happening with weapons of mass destruction and what did happen with the analysis.
But at the White House, you know, we have to keep in mind when people say the White House leaks such and such, that doesn't mean the whole White House leaked it. It means one person did it. In this case, it was someone who was not part of some orchestrated campaign.
Really, the Bush White House has been very ethical. I think it is interesting that the White House phone system does keep track of calls both placed and received. And so that would be part of the investigation, although the fact that someone talked to Novak wouldn't, of course, prove that he gave this information to him.
HARRIS: Let me ask you this, though, because we've seen investigations into leaking there in Washington go on for years and nothing or no one ever be found.
First of all, do you believe anyone will be found at the bottom of this? And if not --if there is no one found, what happens then between the White House and the CIA? Does this do anything to raise or lower the tension between the two?
KESSLER: I don't think the leaker will be found. Over the years maybe one person has been uncovered by the FBI and that was really a matter of luck. And actually the CIA reports roughly once a week compromises of classified information leaks to the Justice Department. They're required to do that. It just so happened that I understand the Democrats on the Hill leaked the fact that this report had been made about this particular situation.
So it was not George Tenant was out to get the White House and therefore made this report, but rather just as a routine matter, at the very low level in the general council's office of the CIA, they made this report.
They first, of course, began to develop the report last July, but it took a long time before they went through all of the procedures, to go into how many people may have known the information. And so it wasn't until a few weeks ago that this report actually was in fact made.
But the fact that it was widely known throughout Washington that Wilson's wife was a CIA person. Now she's in an overcapacity as an analyst whereas before she was in a clandestine capacity. This is a distinction that most people can't keep track of. So that further complicates the whole situation.
HARRIS: Yes, but her past as a covert agent -- a covert operative is what has lots of folks inside the CIA concerned. Ronald Kessler, thank you very much for the time, we appreciate that.
KESSLER: Thank you, Leon.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 1, 2003 - 10:26 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Our next guest this morning is a former investigative reporter and he's the author of some 14 non-fiction books as well. Ronald Kessler's latest book is the "CIA at War: Inside the Secret Campaign Against Terror." The CIA granted him unprecedented access to the workings of the agency.
Mr. Kessler joins us now from CNN's Washington bureau. Glad to have you with us, particularly in the wake of this furor of this story leaks (ph). They're possibly coming from higher officers in the White House. Let me ask you about the contacts that you still have within the CIA. I'm going to guess that you've been talking to them. What are they saying about this internally there?
RONALD KESSLER, AUTHOR: I have sources all over and what I understand is that Novak has confided to a few people that he did get this information from a White House person. In his column today he said administration person. And that this person was not at the highest levels of the White House. And that it was just said in passing, it was not part of some orchestrated campaign to out the CIA officer.
And that it was more in the context of, you know, you should know that since Ambassador Wilson is making all these charges, his wife is a CIA officer, not necessarily knowing that she in fact had been undercover and that revealing her name, therefore, would be illegal and would be a compromise of her.
HARRIS: But what we're hearing now, what's being alleged by Ambassador Wilson and by some others on the sidelines here is that the White House did this, or people in the White House did this in order to pressure him. But also to send a signal to the CIA to perhaps tell people there to get in line.
The people that you've talked to within the CIA, have they said anything at all about taking a message from this?
KESSLER: Well, again, without saying where I get information, we have to keep in mind that Ambassador Wilson is a partisan in all this. In fact, he's mischaracterized his own report about the Niger situation. He's claimed publicly that he said that there was no base for the claim that Saddam Hussein was trying to get uranium there. But in fact his report was very inconclusive and he actually said a businessman told him that, yes, this report was true.
So he is definitely out to get the Bush people and we have to keep that in mind. HARRIS: But, what do you know then, if you can say, about what's being done right now? Tell me what you've heard about what's happening within the CIA right now as this investigation does begin with the FBI.
KESSLER: Well, you know, really, the focus is more the White House. The CIA, for once, is not at the heart of the whole situation, although that is where the big story is, what's happening with weapons of mass destruction and what did happen with the analysis.
But at the White House, you know, we have to keep in mind when people say the White House leaks such and such, that doesn't mean the whole White House leaked it. It means one person did it. In this case, it was someone who was not part of some orchestrated campaign.
Really, the Bush White House has been very ethical. I think it is interesting that the White House phone system does keep track of calls both placed and received. And so that would be part of the investigation, although the fact that someone talked to Novak wouldn't, of course, prove that he gave this information to him.
HARRIS: Let me ask you this, though, because we've seen investigations into leaking there in Washington go on for years and nothing or no one ever be found.
First of all, do you believe anyone will be found at the bottom of this? And if not --if there is no one found, what happens then between the White House and the CIA? Does this do anything to raise or lower the tension between the two?
KESSLER: I don't think the leaker will be found. Over the years maybe one person has been uncovered by the FBI and that was really a matter of luck. And actually the CIA reports roughly once a week compromises of classified information leaks to the Justice Department. They're required to do that. It just so happened that I understand the Democrats on the Hill leaked the fact that this report had been made about this particular situation.
So it was not George Tenant was out to get the White House and therefore made this report, but rather just as a routine matter, at the very low level in the general council's office of the CIA, they made this report.
They first, of course, began to develop the report last July, but it took a long time before they went through all of the procedures, to go into how many people may have known the information. And so it wasn't until a few weeks ago that this report actually was in fact made.
But the fact that it was widely known throughout Washington that Wilson's wife was a CIA person. Now she's in an overcapacity as an analyst whereas before she was in a clandestine capacity. This is a distinction that most people can't keep track of. So that further complicates the whole situation.
HARRIS: Yes, but her past as a covert agent -- a covert operative is what has lots of folks inside the CIA concerned. Ronald Kessler, thank you very much for the time, we appreciate that.
KESSLER: Thank you, Leon.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
