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Some Say An Independent Counsel Is Needed To Uncover Connections Of CIA Leak

Aired October 04, 2003 - 18:10   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: There is a firestorm on Capitol Hill. Investigators are trying to figure out who leaked classified information on a CIA operative. The White House is operating on business as usual today, but Tuesday is the deadline for anyone with documents about the leak to come forward.
Our national security correspondent, David Ensor, connects the dots on what we know so far.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the request of CIA lawyers, the Justice Department is looking into whether to launch a full investigation into the leak of the name of a CIA operative, her face concealed here at her husband Joseph Wilson's request.

JOSEPH WILSON, FMR. AMBASSADOR: I must say, if it was just out of spite or for revenge, it is really truly despicable.

ENSOR: Former Ambassador Wilson is the man sent by the CIA to investigate whether Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Niger, a claim Wilson said he debunked. Though President Bush went on to mention it anyway during his State of the Union Address. Wilson says the leak was payback for his criticism of the administration's Iraq policy.

WILSON: I believe that it came out of the White House. I have sources who have told me that.

ENSOR: This man does know where the story came from. Bob Novak, syndicated columnist and CNN contributor, named Wilson's wife as an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction in a July column, quoting two senior administration officials. Now he's calling the controversy Bush bashing, and declining to reveal his sources.

BOB NOVAK, "CROSSFIRE": Nobody in the Bush administration called me to leak this. In July, I was interviewing a senior administration official on Ambassador Wilson's report when he told me the trip was inspired by his wife, a CIA employee working on weapons of mass destruction. Another senior official told me the same thing.

ENSOR: At the CIA four years ago, former President Bush Sr. made his views about such leaks crystal clear.

GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors.

ENSOR (on camera): If caught, a leaker can face jail time, since exposing the identity of a clandestine CIA operative is a felony. And it can cause the sources developed during an entire career to dry up.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: And we don't yet know the true fallout from this leak. Critics say an independent counsel and not the Justice Department should be handling the investigation. Larry Johnson agrees. He's worked with the CIA and the State Department's counterterrorism office, and he knows Wilson's wife. But David Silverstein, with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, says it's all much to do about nothing.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you very much for being here.

DAVID SILVERSTEIN, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Hello.

LARRY JOHNSON, FMR. CIA OFFICIAL: Afternoon.

LIN: Larry, go ahead and defend your point. Why is it?

JOHNSON: For the first time since the CIA was established a clandestine operative, who we now know through two media sources as identified as what they call a non-official cover, has been outed. Not only that -- you know, I've got to wonder what CNN is up to letting Bob Novak go on the air yesterday and outing what was a cover company, a front company that had been set up to pursue terrorists with weapons of mass destruction.

Now you have put this woman's life in danger. You've made her the number one target for people that hate the CIA around the world. You've put her children at risk, and you've potentially disrupted some significant operations and maybe compromised other clandestine operatives.

LIN: Well, I don't know that CNN has done all that, but certainly the Bush administration has...

JOHNSON: Well, listen. Bob Novak is on your air. And yesterday I watched it. On one of these programs he identified the company and then raised questions, saying, you know, there's something unusual because this company doesn't have any backup. He outed a clandestine company on air yesterday, and that is outrageous.

LIN: So, David, do you trust the Justice Department to be independent in its investigation of this? Or do you think there needs to be a special counsel?

SILVERSTEIN: No, I do trust the Justice Department. But let me say, quickly, I agree with Larry 100 percent. I think it's absolutely criminal for anybody to expose someone who works for the CIA. Even a janitor is a potential resource for a foreign intelligence service and should not be revealed to the public. And so that's the first mistake and really the most important point here.

But, secondly, and I would say equally importantly, the fact is, is that the only hard information that we have about this story is that we don't have any hard information. We have a lot of anonymous sources; we have a lot of anonymous reporters.

And we have no one coming forward to try and assist this investigation, except the Bush administration, which has called in the FBI, and which we can assume -- and I think rightly so -- that they will perform an above-board investigation. They will have the cooperation of employees at the White House. And if they don't, I'd be willing to bet you someone would leak that, because that -- they are fellow brothers in arms with the CIA, and they know that they cannot afford to have their own people exposed in the same way that this woman was exposed.

LIN: David, who do you think the leak was?

SILVERSTEIN: I don't have any clue, and I don't choose to speculate. The fact is, is that there are people, whether they're in the administration, outside of the administration, whether they're reporters who are speculating or people with agendas, we just don't know. And so for us to go on and on about something when there's no hard information I think is a mistake.

For us to focus on the fact that a career professional, a dedicated officer in the CIA was intentionally outed, I think that's the real problem here. And that's what we need to focus on. And if these reporters, whether it's Mr. Novak or all of these anonymous reporters, would just step up and say, you know what, we've got some information, we can do -- absolutely we can let this thing go.

LIN: Larry, you know Valerie Wilson personally. Who do you think leaked her name?

JOHNSON: Well, I've been given some names, but I agree with David. This has got to be done through an investigation and let the FBI make the accusations based upon having the full evidence. What we do know for certain is that Bob Novak said two senior administration officials.

Now, who they are, where they are in the process. But they're senior; they're not just junior or middle level. That's number one.

Number two, unfortunately, this is a pattern that we've seen with the Bush administration over the last year. And I say that as a registered Republican, as someone who voted for George Bush and gave him money. We saw an earlier effort, where the deputy secretary of state over at the State Department, John Bolton, tried to brief on the Cuban weapons program and he was prevented by the intelligence community. And after that they went in after one of the intelligence officers, and he was not undercover. But this battle, this perception that the CIA is a disloyal organization permeates some in the Bush administration.

I don't believe President Bush himself holds that view, but there are some in his administration who do. And they are pursuing a vendetta against the CIA. And it has to stop.

LIN: So what you make of what David said? I mean, David believes that the Justice Department -- the Bush administration can't investigate itself.

JOHNSON: When Clinton was the target, I didn't trust Janet Reno to investigate him. I'm being consistent with my position. I don't trust the John Ashcroft Justice Department to do it. Now...

SILVERSTEIN: But the problem is, Larry, there was an awful lot of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with Janet Reno.

JOHNSON: But wait a second, David. With that said, I've heard other Democrats I respect, like Stan Brand (ph), who think that an independent counsel is unwise. I've just been consistent in my view that, if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

SILVERSTEIN: Look, if there's really a problem there, the only thing we can do is bump it up to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee, and that's bipartisan entirely. So if we have any qualms whatsoever about whether the investigation is going to be conducted above board, or whether the findings are actually going to be completely revealed, let's just turn it over to the bipartisan Senate committee. That would be the easiest way to do it.

JOHNSON: That might be a good idea. I think that might be a good idea. But I think...

SILVERSTEIN: But I wouldn't rush to judge John Ashcroft. I think he's probably going to do an outstanding job.

JOHNSON: No. Listen, I'm from Missouri. I like John Ashcroft.

This is not an indictment of John Ashcroft. I'm just simply saying that when it was inconsistent under Clinton to have Reno do, Republicans at that time who said that that was unwise now are doing the back flip. I don't like doing back flips.

I think we should be consistent. But I think what David proposes is one way to get at it. We have got to take the partisan politics out of this. And I would implore the Bush administration: stop attacking Ambassador Wilson for what he did in this -- for his investigation. The issue is, who outed his wife and compromised a clandestine officer and now have compromised a clandestine front company?

LIN: David...

SILVERSTEIN: I agree entirely. I would only add that I think that when Mr. Wilson makes it his own partisan politics, puts his own partisan politics out front, then he has to expect that someone is going to snipe at him too. The fact that his wife was outed is absolutely reprehensible. We can agree on that.

LIN: How is it that he put his so-called partisan politics... SILVERSTEIN: Well, because he works for a far left wing organization, the Middle East Institute, which takes Saudi money; because he was involved in a really left wing antiwar group; because he wrote in ways that attacked the president's policies; and -- Larry, let me finish -- and he was actually working for the president when he was on his mission to Niger.

If there's ever a breach of confidence, I think that's it right there. He had a responsibility to keep his mouth shut at a minimum. He was on assignment. I think that would be the only gentlemanly way for him to have proceeded, and he didn't do it.

LIN: All right. David, I'm going to give Larry the last word here. And a few seconds, please.

JOHNSON: The ambassador conducted himself in a gentlemanly, professional way. He served honorably under both Republican and Democratic presidents. The guilt by association implications of what David said, that because he works with an organization he's suspect, that's the kind of thing I'm saying we need to stop.

We need to stop impugning people's character and look at what they did. And in Ambassador Wilson's case, he provided a report to the CIA which was corroborated subsequently by the U.S. ambassador to Niger, Republican appointee, as well by an active duty Marine general.

LIN: All right, gentlemen. I'm going to have to keep it there. Thank you very much, David Silverstein, Larry Johnson, for joining us today.

SILVERSTEIN: My pleasure.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

LIN: Obviously, the story is not going anywhere but continuing on. Thank you very much.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Connections Of CIA Leak>


Aired October 4, 2003 - 18:10   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: There is a firestorm on Capitol Hill. Investigators are trying to figure out who leaked classified information on a CIA operative. The White House is operating on business as usual today, but Tuesday is the deadline for anyone with documents about the leak to come forward.
Our national security correspondent, David Ensor, connects the dots on what we know so far.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the request of CIA lawyers, the Justice Department is looking into whether to launch a full investigation into the leak of the name of a CIA operative, her face concealed here at her husband Joseph Wilson's request.

JOSEPH WILSON, FMR. AMBASSADOR: I must say, if it was just out of spite or for revenge, it is really truly despicable.

ENSOR: Former Ambassador Wilson is the man sent by the CIA to investigate whether Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Niger, a claim Wilson said he debunked. Though President Bush went on to mention it anyway during his State of the Union Address. Wilson says the leak was payback for his criticism of the administration's Iraq policy.

WILSON: I believe that it came out of the White House. I have sources who have told me that.

ENSOR: This man does know where the story came from. Bob Novak, syndicated columnist and CNN contributor, named Wilson's wife as an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction in a July column, quoting two senior administration officials. Now he's calling the controversy Bush bashing, and declining to reveal his sources.

BOB NOVAK, "CROSSFIRE": Nobody in the Bush administration called me to leak this. In July, I was interviewing a senior administration official on Ambassador Wilson's report when he told me the trip was inspired by his wife, a CIA employee working on weapons of mass destruction. Another senior official told me the same thing.

ENSOR: At the CIA four years ago, former President Bush Sr. made his views about such leaks crystal clear.

GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors.

ENSOR (on camera): If caught, a leaker can face jail time, since exposing the identity of a clandestine CIA operative is a felony. And it can cause the sources developed during an entire career to dry up.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: And we don't yet know the true fallout from this leak. Critics say an independent counsel and not the Justice Department should be handling the investigation. Larry Johnson agrees. He's worked with the CIA and the State Department's counterterrorism office, and he knows Wilson's wife. But David Silverstein, with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, says it's all much to do about nothing.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you very much for being here.

DAVID SILVERSTEIN, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Hello.

LARRY JOHNSON, FMR. CIA OFFICIAL: Afternoon.

LIN: Larry, go ahead and defend your point. Why is it?

JOHNSON: For the first time since the CIA was established a clandestine operative, who we now know through two media sources as identified as what they call a non-official cover, has been outed. Not only that -- you know, I've got to wonder what CNN is up to letting Bob Novak go on the air yesterday and outing what was a cover company, a front company that had been set up to pursue terrorists with weapons of mass destruction.

Now you have put this woman's life in danger. You've made her the number one target for people that hate the CIA around the world. You've put her children at risk, and you've potentially disrupted some significant operations and maybe compromised other clandestine operatives.

LIN: Well, I don't know that CNN has done all that, but certainly the Bush administration has...

JOHNSON: Well, listen. Bob Novak is on your air. And yesterday I watched it. On one of these programs he identified the company and then raised questions, saying, you know, there's something unusual because this company doesn't have any backup. He outed a clandestine company on air yesterday, and that is outrageous.

LIN: So, David, do you trust the Justice Department to be independent in its investigation of this? Or do you think there needs to be a special counsel?

SILVERSTEIN: No, I do trust the Justice Department. But let me say, quickly, I agree with Larry 100 percent. I think it's absolutely criminal for anybody to expose someone who works for the CIA. Even a janitor is a potential resource for a foreign intelligence service and should not be revealed to the public. And so that's the first mistake and really the most important point here.

But, secondly, and I would say equally importantly, the fact is, is that the only hard information that we have about this story is that we don't have any hard information. We have a lot of anonymous sources; we have a lot of anonymous reporters.

And we have no one coming forward to try and assist this investigation, except the Bush administration, which has called in the FBI, and which we can assume -- and I think rightly so -- that they will perform an above-board investigation. They will have the cooperation of employees at the White House. And if they don't, I'd be willing to bet you someone would leak that, because that -- they are fellow brothers in arms with the CIA, and they know that they cannot afford to have their own people exposed in the same way that this woman was exposed.

LIN: David, who do you think the leak was?

SILVERSTEIN: I don't have any clue, and I don't choose to speculate. The fact is, is that there are people, whether they're in the administration, outside of the administration, whether they're reporters who are speculating or people with agendas, we just don't know. And so for us to go on and on about something when there's no hard information I think is a mistake.

For us to focus on the fact that a career professional, a dedicated officer in the CIA was intentionally outed, I think that's the real problem here. And that's what we need to focus on. And if these reporters, whether it's Mr. Novak or all of these anonymous reporters, would just step up and say, you know what, we've got some information, we can do -- absolutely we can let this thing go.

LIN: Larry, you know Valerie Wilson personally. Who do you think leaked her name?

JOHNSON: Well, I've been given some names, but I agree with David. This has got to be done through an investigation and let the FBI make the accusations based upon having the full evidence. What we do know for certain is that Bob Novak said two senior administration officials.

Now, who they are, where they are in the process. But they're senior; they're not just junior or middle level. That's number one.

Number two, unfortunately, this is a pattern that we've seen with the Bush administration over the last year. And I say that as a registered Republican, as someone who voted for George Bush and gave him money. We saw an earlier effort, where the deputy secretary of state over at the State Department, John Bolton, tried to brief on the Cuban weapons program and he was prevented by the intelligence community. And after that they went in after one of the intelligence officers, and he was not undercover. But this battle, this perception that the CIA is a disloyal organization permeates some in the Bush administration.

I don't believe President Bush himself holds that view, but there are some in his administration who do. And they are pursuing a vendetta against the CIA. And it has to stop.

LIN: So what you make of what David said? I mean, David believes that the Justice Department -- the Bush administration can't investigate itself.

JOHNSON: When Clinton was the target, I didn't trust Janet Reno to investigate him. I'm being consistent with my position. I don't trust the John Ashcroft Justice Department to do it. Now...

SILVERSTEIN: But the problem is, Larry, there was an awful lot of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with Janet Reno.

JOHNSON: But wait a second, David. With that said, I've heard other Democrats I respect, like Stan Brand (ph), who think that an independent counsel is unwise. I've just been consistent in my view that, if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

SILVERSTEIN: Look, if there's really a problem there, the only thing we can do is bump it up to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee, and that's bipartisan entirely. So if we have any qualms whatsoever about whether the investigation is going to be conducted above board, or whether the findings are actually going to be completely revealed, let's just turn it over to the bipartisan Senate committee. That would be the easiest way to do it.

JOHNSON: That might be a good idea. I think that might be a good idea. But I think...

SILVERSTEIN: But I wouldn't rush to judge John Ashcroft. I think he's probably going to do an outstanding job.

JOHNSON: No. Listen, I'm from Missouri. I like John Ashcroft.

This is not an indictment of John Ashcroft. I'm just simply saying that when it was inconsistent under Clinton to have Reno do, Republicans at that time who said that that was unwise now are doing the back flip. I don't like doing back flips.

I think we should be consistent. But I think what David proposes is one way to get at it. We have got to take the partisan politics out of this. And I would implore the Bush administration: stop attacking Ambassador Wilson for what he did in this -- for his investigation. The issue is, who outed his wife and compromised a clandestine officer and now have compromised a clandestine front company?

LIN: David...

SILVERSTEIN: I agree entirely. I would only add that I think that when Mr. Wilson makes it his own partisan politics, puts his own partisan politics out front, then he has to expect that someone is going to snipe at him too. The fact that his wife was outed is absolutely reprehensible. We can agree on that.

LIN: How is it that he put his so-called partisan politics... SILVERSTEIN: Well, because he works for a far left wing organization, the Middle East Institute, which takes Saudi money; because he was involved in a really left wing antiwar group; because he wrote in ways that attacked the president's policies; and -- Larry, let me finish -- and he was actually working for the president when he was on his mission to Niger.

If there's ever a breach of confidence, I think that's it right there. He had a responsibility to keep his mouth shut at a minimum. He was on assignment. I think that would be the only gentlemanly way for him to have proceeded, and he didn't do it.

LIN: All right. David, I'm going to give Larry the last word here. And a few seconds, please.

JOHNSON: The ambassador conducted himself in a gentlemanly, professional way. He served honorably under both Republican and Democratic presidents. The guilt by association implications of what David said, that because he works with an organization he's suspect, that's the kind of thing I'm saying we need to stop.

We need to stop impugning people's character and look at what they did. And in Ambassador Wilson's case, he provided a report to the CIA which was corroborated subsequently by the U.S. ambassador to Niger, Republican appointee, as well by an active duty Marine general.

LIN: All right, gentlemen. I'm going to have to keep it there. Thank you very much, David Silverstein, Larry Johnson, for joining us today.

SILVERSTEIN: My pleasure.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

LIN: Obviously, the story is not going anywhere but continuing on. Thank you very much.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Connections Of CIA Leak>