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CNN Live Sunday
Crisis in the Middle East Examined
Aired October 05, 2003 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: We begin with the troubling new turn in the crisis in the Middle East. Hours after a suicide bombing in Haifa, Israeli forces go on the attack, taking aim at targets in Syria and Gaza. In one of the raids the Israeli army struck a camp deep inside Syria.
CNN's Chris Burns is keeping track of the story inside Jerusalem- Chris.
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Martin, could this portend a greater tension, even more conflict in the region? Keep in mind, this is 30 anniversary today of the Yom Kippur War between Israel and Syria. And now Israel having attacked deep inside Syria at this what they say was a training camp for militants. Will this mean perhaps further attacks?
Now, according to a senior source within the Israeli military, this was aimed at sending a message to Syria and to other organizations and countries, in the sources words, "that they countries that support terror, that harboring terror will not go on without impunity." The source goes on to describe this attack as a "minimal operation," aimed only at various parts of that camp. Parts of the camp where they were training at facilities, ammunition dumps, materiel, but that was it.
So far, we have no immediate indication of injuries there, but this was definitely a message in the wake of the attack yesterday, the suicide attack that killed 19 people in Haifa and injured more than 50 people in Israel. The Israeli government having to respond-feeling it had to respond to that in some way or another. Also having reacted in Gaza, as well. The Israelis attacked two-at least two place inside Gaza-inside Gaza City against the house of a Hamas militant, damaged that house, but the house was empty.
Also attacked in the al Bureij refugee camp at a house that was believed to belong to an Islamic Jihad militant. The Islamic Jihad having claimed responsibility for that attack in Haifa-in Haifa itself. That city very much shaken; a city that is multicultural, known for the co-existence between Israeli, Jews and Israeli Arabs. In fact, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) restaurant itself was owned both by Jews and Arabs. So that was-has very much shaken that place.
This came just three weeks after the last suicide attack. And that last suicide-dual attacks, had prompted the Israeli government to threaten to expel or "to remove," in their words, Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader from his compound in the West Bank. And the Israeli government, once again, members within the government, calling for him to be expelled. However, there are indications the U.S. government is pressing the Israeli government to restrain from that and perhaps this attack inside Syria was seen as an alternative.
Back to you Marty.
SAVIDGE: Thanks very much. Chris Burns reporting to us live from Jerusalem-Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN ANCHOR: Syria denies Israel's claims that terrorists are using that country as a training ground. CNN's Rula Amin is on the phone from Damascus with that side of the story -- Rula.
RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you have said, we just heard from the Syrian Foreign Ministry, which said that the Israeli attack actually hit a civilian site. The Syrian statement called Israeli raid as "a flagrant violation, a serious escalation," it said. Damascus is filing an official complaint with the United Nations and is demanding the Security Council meets immediately to discuss the Israeli attack. Damascus is also calling on the Arab League for an emergency meeting to support Syria and discuss what can be done.
We have also heard from a spokesman from Islamic Jihad in Beirut who denied what was hit was actually a training camp. He said Islamic Jihad does not have any fighters or any kind of military activities in Damascus. Again, this is the first time that Israel hit in Syria in over 20 years. And Arab government-Arab officials in the region are very concerned this could escalate. We heard from the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak as well as the Jordanian Foreign Minister Marwan Muasher. Both called on the United States to restrain Israel because they are concerned that this could actually mean a further deterioration in the very tense situation here and a start of a new cycle of violence.
Back to you.
ARENA: All right. CNN'S Rula Amin joining us from Damascus. Thanks so much for that report-Marty.
SAVIDGE: There are fears in some quarters that Israel's retaliation could also lead to Yasser Arafat's doorstep. Israel has threatened to remove the Palestinian leader and Palestinian officials are trying to ensure that does not happen.
CNN'S Fionnuala Sweeney is on the phone outside of Arafat's compound in Ramallah in the West Bank-Fionnuala.
FIONNUALA SWEENEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Israeli government might attempt to ensure some kind of military cordon around Yasser Arafat's headquarters here in Ramallah. There has been no official Palestinian reaction to the Israeli military action inside Syria. But the chief Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erakat told CNN that he needed Washington to deescalate the situation and he called on the United States to put pressure on Israel to desist from any further military action-Marty. SAVIDGE: Fionnuala, well, if that may be the case of them asking the U.S. to try to scale things back. But there also has to be criticism that's pointed at those that support the Palestinian cause, especially suicide bombers. What's being done on the part of the Palestinian authority to try to rein in the terrorism attacks?
SWEENEY: Well, the Palestinian authority maintain that they are unable to restrain Islamic Jihad and Hamas, that they don't have the security forces in Ramallah, in the West Bank to do that. Although they do have some influence in Gaza. They maintain that if they did crack down on Hamas and Islamic Jihad that it could cause a civil war amongst Palestinians.
The Palestinian authority is generally regarded to be at its weakest point at the moment. And the new Prime Minister Designate Ahmed Qorei is trying to formalize a new government. Indeed, he had a meeting with Arafat this morning in which they went over the 12 names he has submitted for the cabinet, and by all accounts Yasser Arafat has approved those names.
So, as far as Palestinians are concerned, they are trying to continue with form their government, which they are going to put before the Palestinian Legislative Council on Wednesday. Once that is ratified then they will have a new cabinet in place, and then they say they will again call on the United States to implement the road map. They'll call on Israelis to help them ensure another cease-fire on both sides.
But as far as Hamas and Islamic Jihad are concerned, they say that they're unable to restrain them because, as I said, to do so would cause a civil war in Palestinian society.
SAVIDGE: Fionnuala Sweeney, thanks very much for joining us on the telephone outside Yasser Arafat's compound.
By the way, you're looking at live pictures of that very compound, coming to you from Ramallah there in the West Bank.
The Israeli attack could have some profound implications. We'll get to that in a moment.
Kelli, go ahead.
ARENA: Well, President Bush has invested a lot of energy in Mid East peace. And let's get his reaction to this morning's developments from CNN'S Kathleen Koch who is at the White House this morning- Kathleen.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Kelli, the White House, at this point, is taking its time in formulating a response to this new retaliatory tactic on the part of Israel. President Bush and the First Lady Laura did attend church here in Washington this morning at St. John's Episcopal Church. And as they existed, the reporters did shout questions to the president asking his reaction, but he chose not to respond. The U.S. has traditionally supported Israel's right to defend itself, that of course, while all the time reminding Israel that it should keep in mind the implications of its actions when it comes to the fragile road map to peace in the Middle East. The Bush administration has been applying very consistent and steady pressure on its own to Syria to get it to change its ways. Under Secretary of State John Bolton in September, testifying before a congressional hearing, classifying Syria as, quote, "a rogue state." Bolton said it was supporting terrorist groups and Syria was also trying to develop weapons of mass destruction.
There had been concern that Syria had allowed some of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction to cross its border and be hidden there before the war. But Bolton said the U.S., at this point, has found no evidence of that.
Secretary of State Colin Powell, who visited Damascus back in May, at this point, continues to support diplomatic pressure against Syria. He does not want to go for economic sanctions. But Powell has described it as, quote, "totally inadequate" Syrian cooperation with U.S. demands that the country cut its ties to and cut its support for organizations like Hamas, like Islamic Jihad, like the popular front for the liberation of Palestine.
And then factoring into the equation is a situation in Iraq. The Pentagon has been quite concerned that before the war there, Syria allowed military weaponry to flow into to support Saddam Hussein and his forces. And it also insists that Syria has, since that time, been allowing a steady flow of militant fighters into Iraq to attack U.S. forces there. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says the largest numbers of U.S. -- of foreign troops that have been captured by U.S. troops in Iraq have come interest Syria.
So, a great deal of concern about the lack of any Syrian compliance on these matters. But Syria says the U.S. has too many demands and they're ready to cooperate only when those demands are reasonable and realistic -- Kelli.
ARENA: All right. Kathleen, still waiting for an official response from the White House. Thanks for joining us -- Martin.
SAVIDGE: OK. As we started the Israeli attack could have some profound implications for the region that's already very much on edge. And it could be a near fatal blow to that road map for peace.
Mamoun Fandy, a senior fellow with the U.S. Institute of Peace, can help us with the understanding of trying to link this altogether.
Thanks again for talking to us this morning.
MAMOUN FANDY, SENIOR FELLOW, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: Thank you.
SAVIDGE: We don't know much about the specifics of this attack. We don't know if anyone was killed or injured. But we do know it's very serious. Explain why in the whole context of things it is such a serious escalation. FANDY: Well, it is very serious. I think what the Israelis did today is a major -- basically a major move in the strategic chess board throughout the Middle East as well as globally. I mean you understand practically, even the White House was unable to react because this move requires very deliberate reaction given the high stakes involved.
The Israelis now are really calling the bluffs of the new Syrian leader, Bashir Asad. Either he has to respond and put the Middle East on a countdown to hell, or he does not respond and will undermine his own legitimacy internally.
SAVIDGE: Well, which one do you think it will be out of the two selections?
FANDY: I think the lessons of Syrian actions from 1982 when the Israeli tanks were rolling into Lebanon, the Israelis, the Syrians were moving out of Lebanon, the distance between the two forces were about 150 meters. The Syrians looked the other way and probably they would look the other way given the differential in the capabilities of the two states. Israel has a lot more and practically intimidated the Syrians today and showed to them their radars could not detect their airplanes and they can hit 10 miles northwest of Damascus.
SAVIDGE: Well, what about the rest of the Arab world? Their input, their response in how they may unite behind this attack?
FANDY: Well, the stakes are very high. I'm not sure if the Egyptians, if we read from the response of President Mubarak with Chancellor Schroeder in Cairo today, it was a bit lame response that Egypt does not want to get involved; although Syrians complain to the Arab League and want to have an Arab cover to what's happening. I'm not sure many Arab nations will get involved because practically everybody's shaking in their boots now; they don't know how to response to this major bluff.
SAVIDGE: Do you think the Israelis are going to stop with this attack? Or do you think there could be more to come?
FANDY: Well, if you look at the whole situation, the Israelis are between a rock and a hard place, they have 19 people killed and many injured and they have to provide security to their own people on the one hand. Also, they have the situation with Arafat and Hamas and the Jihad. The Jihad would like and Hamas would like Israel to engage Syria rather than them. Arafat, the Israelis are contemplating, moving him to Gaza. The Israelis are under a lot of pressure, and I don't think we have seen the end of this yet.
SAVIDGE: And where do you think we will be 24-hours from now? I mean yesterday, when we were trying to speculate a possible retaliation, it was thought to be focused against Yasser Arafat. Now we see the Israelis struck in an area many people didn't anticipate.
FANDY: Nobody anticipated this. I mean the Syrian-Israeli border has been quiet for the last 30 years. And the Syrians knew the consequences of any action they take against Israel. Now, what do we anticipate after this? Either the Syrians will take this as a message and understand it and close down all of these camps -- the suspect camps, whether they belong to Hamas or Islamic Jihad, or respond.
And I think if they understand the message, then probably we are safe. If they respond, then the whole countdown to hell in the Middle East will begin.
SAVIDGE: Let's hope that's not the case. Mamoun Fandy, he is a senior fellow with the U.S. Institute of Peace. Thank you very much for talking with us once more on this subject that has literally exploded this morning. Thank you.
FANDY: Thank you, Martin.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 5, 2003 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: We begin with the troubling new turn in the crisis in the Middle East. Hours after a suicide bombing in Haifa, Israeli forces go on the attack, taking aim at targets in Syria and Gaza. In one of the raids the Israeli army struck a camp deep inside Syria.
CNN's Chris Burns is keeping track of the story inside Jerusalem- Chris.
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Martin, could this portend a greater tension, even more conflict in the region? Keep in mind, this is 30 anniversary today of the Yom Kippur War between Israel and Syria. And now Israel having attacked deep inside Syria at this what they say was a training camp for militants. Will this mean perhaps further attacks?
Now, according to a senior source within the Israeli military, this was aimed at sending a message to Syria and to other organizations and countries, in the sources words, "that they countries that support terror, that harboring terror will not go on without impunity." The source goes on to describe this attack as a "minimal operation," aimed only at various parts of that camp. Parts of the camp where they were training at facilities, ammunition dumps, materiel, but that was it.
So far, we have no immediate indication of injuries there, but this was definitely a message in the wake of the attack yesterday, the suicide attack that killed 19 people in Haifa and injured more than 50 people in Israel. The Israeli government having to respond-feeling it had to respond to that in some way or another. Also having reacted in Gaza, as well. The Israelis attacked two-at least two place inside Gaza-inside Gaza City against the house of a Hamas militant, damaged that house, but the house was empty.
Also attacked in the al Bureij refugee camp at a house that was believed to belong to an Islamic Jihad militant. The Islamic Jihad having claimed responsibility for that attack in Haifa-in Haifa itself. That city very much shaken; a city that is multicultural, known for the co-existence between Israeli, Jews and Israeli Arabs. In fact, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) restaurant itself was owned both by Jews and Arabs. So that was-has very much shaken that place.
This came just three weeks after the last suicide attack. And that last suicide-dual attacks, had prompted the Israeli government to threaten to expel or "to remove," in their words, Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader from his compound in the West Bank. And the Israeli government, once again, members within the government, calling for him to be expelled. However, there are indications the U.S. government is pressing the Israeli government to restrain from that and perhaps this attack inside Syria was seen as an alternative.
Back to you Marty.
SAVIDGE: Thanks very much. Chris Burns reporting to us live from Jerusalem-Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN ANCHOR: Syria denies Israel's claims that terrorists are using that country as a training ground. CNN's Rula Amin is on the phone from Damascus with that side of the story -- Rula.
RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you have said, we just heard from the Syrian Foreign Ministry, which said that the Israeli attack actually hit a civilian site. The Syrian statement called Israeli raid as "a flagrant violation, a serious escalation," it said. Damascus is filing an official complaint with the United Nations and is demanding the Security Council meets immediately to discuss the Israeli attack. Damascus is also calling on the Arab League for an emergency meeting to support Syria and discuss what can be done.
We have also heard from a spokesman from Islamic Jihad in Beirut who denied what was hit was actually a training camp. He said Islamic Jihad does not have any fighters or any kind of military activities in Damascus. Again, this is the first time that Israel hit in Syria in over 20 years. And Arab government-Arab officials in the region are very concerned this could escalate. We heard from the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak as well as the Jordanian Foreign Minister Marwan Muasher. Both called on the United States to restrain Israel because they are concerned that this could actually mean a further deterioration in the very tense situation here and a start of a new cycle of violence.
Back to you.
ARENA: All right. CNN'S Rula Amin joining us from Damascus. Thanks so much for that report-Marty.
SAVIDGE: There are fears in some quarters that Israel's retaliation could also lead to Yasser Arafat's doorstep. Israel has threatened to remove the Palestinian leader and Palestinian officials are trying to ensure that does not happen.
CNN'S Fionnuala Sweeney is on the phone outside of Arafat's compound in Ramallah in the West Bank-Fionnuala.
FIONNUALA SWEENEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Israeli government might attempt to ensure some kind of military cordon around Yasser Arafat's headquarters here in Ramallah. There has been no official Palestinian reaction to the Israeli military action inside Syria. But the chief Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erakat told CNN that he needed Washington to deescalate the situation and he called on the United States to put pressure on Israel to desist from any further military action-Marty. SAVIDGE: Fionnuala, well, if that may be the case of them asking the U.S. to try to scale things back. But there also has to be criticism that's pointed at those that support the Palestinian cause, especially suicide bombers. What's being done on the part of the Palestinian authority to try to rein in the terrorism attacks?
SWEENEY: Well, the Palestinian authority maintain that they are unable to restrain Islamic Jihad and Hamas, that they don't have the security forces in Ramallah, in the West Bank to do that. Although they do have some influence in Gaza. They maintain that if they did crack down on Hamas and Islamic Jihad that it could cause a civil war amongst Palestinians.
The Palestinian authority is generally regarded to be at its weakest point at the moment. And the new Prime Minister Designate Ahmed Qorei is trying to formalize a new government. Indeed, he had a meeting with Arafat this morning in which they went over the 12 names he has submitted for the cabinet, and by all accounts Yasser Arafat has approved those names.
So, as far as Palestinians are concerned, they are trying to continue with form their government, which they are going to put before the Palestinian Legislative Council on Wednesday. Once that is ratified then they will have a new cabinet in place, and then they say they will again call on the United States to implement the road map. They'll call on Israelis to help them ensure another cease-fire on both sides.
But as far as Hamas and Islamic Jihad are concerned, they say that they're unable to restrain them because, as I said, to do so would cause a civil war in Palestinian society.
SAVIDGE: Fionnuala Sweeney, thanks very much for joining us on the telephone outside Yasser Arafat's compound.
By the way, you're looking at live pictures of that very compound, coming to you from Ramallah there in the West Bank.
The Israeli attack could have some profound implications. We'll get to that in a moment.
Kelli, go ahead.
ARENA: Well, President Bush has invested a lot of energy in Mid East peace. And let's get his reaction to this morning's developments from CNN'S Kathleen Koch who is at the White House this morning- Kathleen.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Kelli, the White House, at this point, is taking its time in formulating a response to this new retaliatory tactic on the part of Israel. President Bush and the First Lady Laura did attend church here in Washington this morning at St. John's Episcopal Church. And as they existed, the reporters did shout questions to the president asking his reaction, but he chose not to respond. The U.S. has traditionally supported Israel's right to defend itself, that of course, while all the time reminding Israel that it should keep in mind the implications of its actions when it comes to the fragile road map to peace in the Middle East. The Bush administration has been applying very consistent and steady pressure on its own to Syria to get it to change its ways. Under Secretary of State John Bolton in September, testifying before a congressional hearing, classifying Syria as, quote, "a rogue state." Bolton said it was supporting terrorist groups and Syria was also trying to develop weapons of mass destruction.
There had been concern that Syria had allowed some of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction to cross its border and be hidden there before the war. But Bolton said the U.S., at this point, has found no evidence of that.
Secretary of State Colin Powell, who visited Damascus back in May, at this point, continues to support diplomatic pressure against Syria. He does not want to go for economic sanctions. But Powell has described it as, quote, "totally inadequate" Syrian cooperation with U.S. demands that the country cut its ties to and cut its support for organizations like Hamas, like Islamic Jihad, like the popular front for the liberation of Palestine.
And then factoring into the equation is a situation in Iraq. The Pentagon has been quite concerned that before the war there, Syria allowed military weaponry to flow into to support Saddam Hussein and his forces. And it also insists that Syria has, since that time, been allowing a steady flow of militant fighters into Iraq to attack U.S. forces there. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says the largest numbers of U.S. -- of foreign troops that have been captured by U.S. troops in Iraq have come interest Syria.
So, a great deal of concern about the lack of any Syrian compliance on these matters. But Syria says the U.S. has too many demands and they're ready to cooperate only when those demands are reasonable and realistic -- Kelli.
ARENA: All right. Kathleen, still waiting for an official response from the White House. Thanks for joining us -- Martin.
SAVIDGE: OK. As we started the Israeli attack could have some profound implications for the region that's already very much on edge. And it could be a near fatal blow to that road map for peace.
Mamoun Fandy, a senior fellow with the U.S. Institute of Peace, can help us with the understanding of trying to link this altogether.
Thanks again for talking to us this morning.
MAMOUN FANDY, SENIOR FELLOW, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: Thank you.
SAVIDGE: We don't know much about the specifics of this attack. We don't know if anyone was killed or injured. But we do know it's very serious. Explain why in the whole context of things it is such a serious escalation. FANDY: Well, it is very serious. I think what the Israelis did today is a major -- basically a major move in the strategic chess board throughout the Middle East as well as globally. I mean you understand practically, even the White House was unable to react because this move requires very deliberate reaction given the high stakes involved.
The Israelis now are really calling the bluffs of the new Syrian leader, Bashir Asad. Either he has to respond and put the Middle East on a countdown to hell, or he does not respond and will undermine his own legitimacy internally.
SAVIDGE: Well, which one do you think it will be out of the two selections?
FANDY: I think the lessons of Syrian actions from 1982 when the Israeli tanks were rolling into Lebanon, the Israelis, the Syrians were moving out of Lebanon, the distance between the two forces were about 150 meters. The Syrians looked the other way and probably they would look the other way given the differential in the capabilities of the two states. Israel has a lot more and practically intimidated the Syrians today and showed to them their radars could not detect their airplanes and they can hit 10 miles northwest of Damascus.
SAVIDGE: Well, what about the rest of the Arab world? Their input, their response in how they may unite behind this attack?
FANDY: Well, the stakes are very high. I'm not sure if the Egyptians, if we read from the response of President Mubarak with Chancellor Schroeder in Cairo today, it was a bit lame response that Egypt does not want to get involved; although Syrians complain to the Arab League and want to have an Arab cover to what's happening. I'm not sure many Arab nations will get involved because practically everybody's shaking in their boots now; they don't know how to response to this major bluff.
SAVIDGE: Do you think the Israelis are going to stop with this attack? Or do you think there could be more to come?
FANDY: Well, if you look at the whole situation, the Israelis are between a rock and a hard place, they have 19 people killed and many injured and they have to provide security to their own people on the one hand. Also, they have the situation with Arafat and Hamas and the Jihad. The Jihad would like and Hamas would like Israel to engage Syria rather than them. Arafat, the Israelis are contemplating, moving him to Gaza. The Israelis are under a lot of pressure, and I don't think we have seen the end of this yet.
SAVIDGE: And where do you think we will be 24-hours from now? I mean yesterday, when we were trying to speculate a possible retaliation, it was thought to be focused against Yasser Arafat. Now we see the Israelis struck in an area many people didn't anticipate.
FANDY: Nobody anticipated this. I mean the Syrian-Israeli border has been quiet for the last 30 years. And the Syrians knew the consequences of any action they take against Israel. Now, what do we anticipate after this? Either the Syrians will take this as a message and understand it and close down all of these camps -- the suspect camps, whether they belong to Hamas or Islamic Jihad, or respond.
And I think if they understand the message, then probably we are safe. If they respond, then the whole countdown to hell in the Middle East will begin.
SAVIDGE: Let's hope that's not the case. Mamoun Fandy, he is a senior fellow with the U.S. Institute of Peace. Thank you very much for talking with us once more on this subject that has literally exploded this morning. Thank you.
FANDY: Thank you, Martin.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
