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PAULA ZAHN NOW

Challenges Await Schwarzenegger; Will Kobe Bryant Preliminary Hearing Happen?; FBI Remains Tight-Lipped About Bug Planted In Philadelphia Mayor's Office

Aired October 8, 2003 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: "In Focus" tonight: Arnold Schwarzenegger's next big premiere, the California Statehouse. The former Austrian strongman-turned-action-hero has realized his dream. So what does he do now that he's become governor?
Kobe Bryant is due back in court on sexual assault charges. Will his defense team risk a public hearing of the explosive accusations against him?

Who planted a bug in the office of Philadelphia's mayor? And how do you find out if someone's spying on you?

Good evening. Welcome. Glad to have you with us tonight.

Also ahead, the controversial board game that has players buying and selling crack houses. It's called Ghettopoly, and some say it's racist, but it's selling so fast in some parts of the country, there's already a two-week waiting list at some stores.

And the hometown boy makes good. We'll check out the celebrations in Austria over Arnold Schwarzenegger's win.

Also, off the record, on the record, on background. As the hunt goes on for the source of the CIA leak, we'll explain the language in leaks "In Plain English."

First, though, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now. Officials say the military is getting ready to file some initial charges against Army Captain James Yee. Yee is the Islamic chaplain who worked at the Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and is suspected of spying and aiding the enemy.

Police in Des Moines, Iowa, may have foiled a high school suicide pact. Authorities say nine students are suspected of being involved. All of them were friends of a 15-year-old boy who hanged himself last week, following a car crash that killed three of his friends last month.

And beginning tomorrow, people will again be able to add their numbers to the national do-not-call list. The list had been frozen by a judge who said it violated the free speech of telemarketers. But last night, an appeals court temporarily blocked that decision and allowed the FTC to enforce that list.

We begin in California tonight, where governor-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger has announced that Republican Congressman David Dreier of California will take charge of his transition team. Schwarzenegger is expected to take office in mid-November. "In Focus" tonight: the Schwarzenegger transition.

Joining me from San Francisco this evening, former California Governor Jerry Brown. He is now the mayor of Oakland.

Always good to see you. Welcome back, Mr. Brown.

JERRY BROWN (D), MAYOR OF OAKLAND: Thank you.

ZAHN: So how is it you think Arnold Schwarzenegger is going to do? Is he going to pull this off?

BROWN: Well, he has got an open field.

He made just a few commitments. He said he wasn't going to be bound by the special interests. He is a man who has made a lot of money. He has a lot of powerful friends. He has a lot of smart friends. He said he wants to work with both parties. So, hey, he puts all that together and there's some real creative potential. There's an opening here.

ZAHN: You say Mr. Schwarzenegger said he wants to work with both parties. But if this is any indication of the kind of help he's going to get from Democrats, you're going to have to tell us how this might all end up.

Let's listen to what Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante had to say last night during his concession speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GOV. CRUZ BUSTAMANTE (D), CALIFORNIA: Arnold, you're very famous for making movies all over the world. I want you to feel free to continue doing that.

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BUSTAMANTE: Go where you like. Feel free to stay as long as you like. I'll be here keeping an eye on things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: So, Jerry, how much trouble can he actually give Arnold Schwarzenegger?

BROWN: Not much. I mean, lieutenant governors don't have that much impact. That's why there is always a tension between the governor and the lieutenant governor.

Also, in the midst of these campaigns, it's heartbreaking when you don't win and your supporters have to be pumped up and they're not easily let down. So, in these campaigns, you're in your own trench. And your supporters, admirers, they're working hard. And they all reinforce one view of the world. But Arnold Schwarzenegger's coming in here, worldwide publicity, front page of every newspaper in the world.

He has commanding media attention. Democrats who get in his way may think twice, with the power of intimidation that that media force has. So I think he is going to have what I call an opening, a creative opening. And, yes, he hasn't made a laundry list of commitments. He doesn't have each little interest wired together to form this -- some kind of a coalition here. But he did win.

And in many counties, he got well more than a majority of all the votes cast. So there's a lot of momentum, there's a lot of energy, and there isn't a lot of IOUs, backroom, I'm committed to Harry, I got to give Joe a job and this group and that group has already bound me up. So, yes, it can fail, but there's plenty of possibility on the upside to do something really important for California.

ZAHN: So, given everything you're say saying, what, then, do you think is the biggest obstacle Mr. Schwarzenegger faces?

BROWN: Well, the economy and its impact on the budget. Either, it's $10 billion or it might be $20 billion. But it's conceivable that, since Republicans can do things that Democrats sometimes can't do -- and what we need here is a bridge, because the California economy is robust. We still generate, at our worst, $1.3 trillion of goods and services every year. And it will come back.

It will be $1.7 trillion probably in the next two or three years. So the money is there, but it's not there at this moment. It might be possible that the federal government could help, some kind of a bond, a bridge. They've got a lot of ways to figure it out. And anybody who is going to stand around and say, "Hey, I'm going to help Arnold fail in order for California to fail," will be totally stigmatized and unsupported.

That is -- I'll just say right now to Democrats, that is not a viable path to follow. And it's traditional that the incoming governor has a period of time where people go with what he's proposing. And now, in this extraordinary recall, where the people rose up for the first time in almost 100 years and say they want this radical change, I think the period of the honeymoon is even going to be longer.

ZAHN: All right, Jerry Brown, we'll see if your predictions come true. Always good to see you. Thanks so much for dropping by.

BROWN: OK.

ZAHN: One of the big jobs Arnold Schwarzenegger faces now is turning his tough-guy, movie-star image into something that will be taken seriously in the world of politics.

Joining us now, an expert on image-making, advertising agency executive Donny Deutsch in Los Angeles tonight, Democratic analyst Carlos Watson; and here with us as well in our New York studios, "TIME" magazine columnist Joe Klein.

Welcome, all.

Carlos, I want you to start with you this evening and have you react to a very small part of the news conference the governor-elect held just a couple hours ago.

Let's all listen together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR-ELECT: I think we can accomplish a lot together. And I believe that. I think we can accomplish a lot together. It's all about leadership. What I want to bring to Sacramento is leadership. That's what I have promised in this campaign and this is what I will provide, is leadership, bring the people together and let them know that the people of California have voted against the system that is existing right now. They want a new direction. They want to go in a direction that moves forward, in a positive way. And they want change. And that's what we have to give them. The legislators up there have gotten that message last night, that the people of California want change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: That's what the governor-elect thinks.

Carlos, you just heard -- may have heard Jerry Brown say he thinks the governor-elect is in for a long honeymoon. Do you believe that to be the case?

CARLOS WATSON, POLITICAL ANALYST: I differ -- with all due respect, I differ with the governor slightly.

In California, on January 10, the governor is supposed to submit a budget. And I think, in Arnold's case, given that the deficit may not be $8 billion, but in fact could be as large as $20 billion, and that he has said that he won't raise taxes, I think there will be a real fight.

So I think the honeymoon may last several months. But I think very early on, beginning in January, February and March, you'll see real fights, not only over the economy and the budget, but over health care. You'll see fights over the issue of immigration. And you'll also see a real fight over education, which, by the way, Paula, makes up about half of the budget.

So a lot of these things are integrated. And I think the honeymoon will be shorter than many hope, although I think one of the things that you'll see Arnold do -- and look for the announcement tomorrow -- in addition to announcing a number of high-profile Republicans who will lead the transition, expect him to name a very high-profile Democrat tomorrow who will be a co-leader of that transition. And that should help him when the fights begin and the honeymoon ends.

ZAHN: Strategically, that's a very important thing to do, right, Joe?

JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: That's a very smart thing to do.

I expected President Bush to do that after the close election in 2000, but he didn't. The one thing that we have to come to terms with now in California is that, for the first time in a very long time, they have a popular governor. What he did last night was pretty remarkable. He got more than half the vote against 134 other people.

And so, as Jerry Brown very astutely pointed out, the Democrats are going to have to change their behavior, which, by the way, is what Jerry Brown did a long time ago, when he was faced with Proposition 13.

ZAHN: He had a good phrase there. He said they have to put down a viable path to follow.

KLEIN: Yes.

And the Republicans, who are probably overjoyed to get control over a heavily Democratic state, are going to have to compromise.

ZAHN: So, as the governor-elect goes through this transition, a lot of people are saying, he's got to get rid of the movie-star platitudes, start really talking substance here, and get rid of all those movie lines we have heard over and over again throughout this campaign.

DONNY DEUTSCH, CHAIRMAN & CEO, DEUTSCH, INC.: Sure.

There's kind of a contradiction here, as you know. The very thing that got him elected -- he even said it -- people voted against the system. I don't think people voted for Arnold. I think they just voted -- they wanted a change. They voted against Gray Davis. And he was the obvious choice, the visible choice. He was the quintessential outsider.

Now he almost has got to start to look very much like a governor. And, in certain ways, people are going to want to see a politician. But the very thing that got him there, that he was an outsider, so there's kind of a little bit of a conflict there. And so it's a very challenging thing. He needs to stay as an outsider, but, at the same time, give people a comfort level that he's not a movie star and he's got the chops here. And that's kind of a little conflict.

ZAHN: So, how would you shape that message if you were running the transition team?

DEUTSCH: Basically, very quickly, he has got to start to do things. The big -- 75 percent of the people that voted for him said they didn't even line up with him on the issues. They didn't even know where they stood on the issues. They voted for a guy.

So, I think very, very quickly, he's got to really -- whether it's repealing the car tax, very quickly, action type of things, to really say, you know what? He can get things done there, because, you know, from where I sit -- and maybe I'm crazy -- nobody is saying this -- is, does he have any skills? This is a guy who last month was in "T3." And nobody is saying that.

I run an advertising agency. And that's not the hardest thing in the world. That doesn't mean a really popular guy can come in tomorrow and do it. There are certain skills in every profession. And nobody is saying that.

KLEIN: He has big-room skills. To govern, you need small-room skills.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Carlos, you get the last word tonight.

WATSON: Paula, three people who will be helpful. Watch Maria Shriver. Watch former Governor Pete Wilson. And, very importantly, watch the former Governor Pete Wilson's former chief of staff, Bob White, who probably won't take a formal role, but will be extraordinarily helpful behind the scenes in helping Arnold get a lot of action, as Donny talked about, to happen pretty early on.

Donny is right. There will be a challenge. But I think Arnold has got incredible teammates and team members to help him navigate what could be a difficult early path.

ZAHN: Gentlemen, thank you, all. Donny Deutsch, Carlos Watson.

Joe Klein, would you stick around?

KLEIN: Sure.

ZAHN: The other two guys have got to go. We're going to move on.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Tomorrow night, the spotlight shifts from California to Arizona for the Democratic presidential debate.

For a preview of that, Joe Klein and I are joined from Phoenix by senior analyst Jeff Greenfield.

Welcome aboard, Jeff.

GREENFIELD: Thank you. Are you sure this isn't the recall state again?

(LAUGHTER)

ZAHN: You never know, with the way things have been moving lately.

Let's talk a little bit about what any of these Democratic candidates might have learned by watching what played out in California last night, Jeff. GREENFIELD: Well, you've already seen the Howard Dean campaign claim that this is another example of the kind of anger and dissatisfaction with the political insiders that he represents.

But I think what you're going to see tomorrow night is a different kind of pivot on that. That is, tomorrow night, rather than concentrating on what happened Tuesday, I think you're going to see two Democratic candidates in the crosshairs. One is Howard Dean, who raised $15 million in the last quarter, poses a mortal threat to Dick Gephardt in Iowa and John Kerry in New Hampshire.

And you're going to see General Clark, who got a pass in that last debate in New York, come under some very heavy scrutiny by the other candidates as to just how real a Democrat he is. And I think, tactically, they're going to leave California behind. There might be a reference to the anger out there. I expect Dr. Dean to mention that.

But I think what is going to happen tomorrow night is that the two front-runners, the two headliners, are going to be the targets of the rest.

ZAHN: And will there be fighting for the outsider status label during this debate?

KLEIN: Yes.

If I'm a Democrat running for president, I'm going to study Gray Davis very carefully and do the exact opposite. This is a guy who is a creature of his consultants. He was a tactical, small-minded politician. He spent all of his time raising money and then using it in negative ads. The public reacted against that.

Howard Dean, as Jeff was saying, is the only Democrat who has kind of gotten the message that people are sick of all the marketing, consulting and the rest. And I think that you're going to see a lot of Democrats maybe not acknowledging what happened in California, but certainly responding to it.

ZAHN: We have all been sitting around today trying to figure out what questions we would ask if we were on the panel, as you are, Jeff, tomorrow night. By now, all these candidates have been subjected to hundreds and hundreds of questions. We know where they stand on almost every single issue.

GREENFIELD: Right.

ZAHN: What kind of tone are you going to be looking at tomorrow, without giving away all the questions you have planned, Jeff?

GREENFIELD: Well, actually, Joe Klein, who is an old friend, knows that my dream question, which I have never had the guts to ask, goes like this. If a train leaves New York going west at 80 miles and another train leaves Chicago going east, when do they meet and how much should Amtrak subsidize them? At least we can see if they're good at math. More seriously, from the perspective of a panelist, I don't do gotcha questions. Who is the foreign minister of Gabon? That makes you look smart and it's unfair. But you also don't want to ask the questions, as you said, Paula, where the candidates immediately reach up and hit the play button that their consultants Joe talked about have programmed into their heads.

What I'm looking to do and what I'm looking from them is, I want to see, not just their cognitive knowledge, what they know, but who they are. Are they defensive? Are they expansive? Do they acknowledge the question? Do they acknowledge complexity? Are they willing to say, you know, that's interesting, and here's something you might want to think about? Or are we going to get the seven-point program that they have been reciting for the last year.

For me, and I think for a lot of viewers out there who perfectly fit Joe Klein's description of an electorate completely fed up with traditional politics, if I were one of these guys or their advisers, that's what I would want to see.

ZAHN: Jeff Greenfield, Joe Klein, thank you for both of your insights. We'll be watching tomorrow night.

Our live coverage of the Democratic debate begins at 8:00 Eastern time. We hope you'll join us then.

Kobe Bryant's lawyers have a tough choice to make before tomorrow's preliminary hearing. We're going to tell you what it is and what is at stake for the NBA and its star now facing sexual assault charges?

And as the CIA leak investigation moves forward, we turn to a legend in journalism to sort out the language of leaks, Carl Bernstein.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARL BERNSTEIN, REPORTER: A leak means somebody wants it out there, usually for a reason involving an ax to grind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WOODRUFF: So Carl Bernstein will be along to put it all "In Plain English" for us tonight.

And the controversy over the new board game called Ghettopoly. Does it cross the line?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Kobe Bryant's lawyers have a big decision to make between now and tomorrow. That is when the NBA star's preliminary hearing on sexual assault charges is scheduled to begin.

To tell us more about that, I'm joined from Eagle, Colorado, by our own legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin. Also, I am joined also by "New York Times" sportswriter Michael Wise. He has just returned from Hawaii, where he was covering the Lakers training camp.

Welcome to both of you.

MIKE WISE, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Thank you.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.

ZAHN: So, Jeffrey, have you been given any heads-up about what the defense might do?

TOOBIN: Boy, I wish I could tell you I had some inside info, but I don't. They're sealed up tight as a drum.

But it is a tough decision, because the one thing we know for sure is that, if this preliminary hearing goes forward, the defense is not going to win. The case will move to the next stage. And we know that the government's case tomorrow will include the videotape of the alleged victim's statement to the police, an audiotape of Kobe Bryant describing his activities to the police, and photographs of the alleged victim's injuries. The defense very well may say, we don't want this public. We don't want this out. Let's just waive the hearing and move to the trial.

ZAHN: So why would they wait to do this until tomorrow?

TOOBIN: Well, defense lawyers always wait until the last minute to do everything.

One thing they will know -- at 12:15 tomorrow, 45 minutes before the hearing is scheduled to take place, there's going to be a conference in chambers between the defense prosecutor and the judge. Well, the judge will decide whether he will restrict public access to any of this evidence, if it comes out in court, so if he'll throw people out of court, saying that the evidence is too inflammatory.

The defense may be waiting to hear whether they win in front of the judge, say -- whether the judge says, we'll keep this stuff secret, and then decide whether to go forward on having the hearing.

ZAHN: Well, you certainly will be our eyes and ears tomorrow. Thanks so much. We're going to let you go and pick up our conversation now with Michael. Glad to see you got there safely, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: OK.

ZAHN: Michael, you're just back from Hawaii, where you got to not only talk to the L.A. Lakers players, but spend a little time with Kobe Bryant. People talk about him coming back to the training camp as a changed man, new tattoos proclaiming his love for his wife, Vanessa.

Is he really a changed man? What did you notice?

WISE: I think, Paula, this whole odyssey, so to speak, has changed him and shell-shocked him. He basically rolled up his sleeve for us the other day I guess to express his devotion, his love for his life. He is trying to create a public image here that differs from the public image being that's put out by the prosecutors. And I think that's key for him right now.

He has been more reflective and candid than he has ever been with us in his eight-year career.

ZAHN: Did he fit in at all with his other team members? Of course, he arrived at training camp late.

WISE: And it's a cliche to say these guys block everything and they concentrate on what's going on, on the court. But, in a lot of aspects, when practice starts, I think they do. I think, down deep, his teammates really believe that this is going to provide a distraction for him all year, and it's just going to be there and it's going to hover over this team, and it's going to have a lot to do with whether they win the championship or not.

ZAHN: Well, is that what they're afraid of? They think that he's not going to help them win?

WISE: Obviously, I think they're worried about his future -- the fact that he could go to prison, that's just so much bigger than losing a title in the little world of sport.

ZAHN: Sure.

WISE: But I think there's a genuine, I don't want to say selfish, but just a team dynamic that says, yes, we're here to win a title. That's what we brought Karl Malone and Gary Payton on board for. And if Kobe Bryant is gone and here and there and we don't know what is going to happen with his trial, it is going to affect what happens with us.

ZAHN: Kobe Bryant himself has talked about how terrified he is of this process, mainly as to how it is going to impact his family. Can you elaborate on that a little?

WISE: Again, I think he's trying to do whatever he can to not present himself as a persecuted man, but to show what his family is going through, to present himself as a family man. He has already admitted to adultery. He thinks everything from that point on has to be makeup and turn his public image to the other side. And I think he is going to do whatever he has to do to do that.

ZAHN: Well, your last couple of pieces have been very insightful. Thanks for sharing some of your research with us tonight, Michael Wise.

WISE: Appreciate it, Paula.

ZAHN: Look forward to reading you down the road.

Coming up, we're going to take you to Arnold Schwarzenegger's hometown in Austria, as they celebrate his big win.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not only an American dream. It's also an Austrian dream.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Kind of mixing up our images there, the CIA with Arnold and Maria in California last night. Now I think we're looking at those Austrian -- no, we're back at the CIA.

You know what? We're going to take a break. And we'll show it to you all when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Back to the subject of the California recall, but not to California. Arnold Schwarzenegger was born near the town of Graz, Austria. It's a town now that has another reason to be proud of its favorite son.

And senior international correspondent Walter Rodgers is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arnold for governor.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Arnold Schwarzenegger's Austrian hometown, they celebrated his victory even before California's polls closed. The people of Graz believe the Schwarzenegger folklore, his boast, they say, that, as a 17-year-old, he would some day become a champion bodybuilder, a movie star, a millionaire and a winning politician. Here, they were pleased, but not surprised.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a pretty big deal. And I think people are proud for Schwarzenegger nowadays

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're so proud of all of what he has reached in his life, and because it is not only an American dream. It's also an Austrian dream.

RODGERS: Still, few Austrians have any clue to what the new California governor-elect plans to serve up politically.

(on camera): Do you know what he stands for politically?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know, but I like him and I want to celebrate with him.

RODGERS: What does Arnold Schwarzenegger represent politically? What does he stand for?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very difficult. I don't know. RODGERS (voice-over): By morning, it was clear in Austria a new political day was also dawning in America. Some older people, including this former Austrian diplomat, think California Republicans may be in for a surprise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, after all, he is married to a lady who is not strictly Republican, as you know.

RODGERS (on camera): So are you saying Arnold Schwarzenegger is a closet liberal?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A classical liberal, I would say. Yes, that's my impression.

RODGERS: California Republicans don't know what they got.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe, but they will learn.

RODGERS (voice-over): In his hometown, the Schwarzenegger folklore grows daily, including the mistaken believe among more than a few here that this California governor-elect could also go on to be president, despite a constitutional ban against a foreign-born person being elected.

One interesting and widely-held opinion, we discovered, a bodybuilder and a movie star ever becoming a president in Europe is out of the question.

(on camera): Could Arnold Schwarzenegger have become as successful in Austria as a politician as he now is in America, do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, never.

RODGERS (voice-over): The American image has taken quite a battering in Europe in recent years. But in Austria, at least, the American dream may have been reborn. And Arnold Schwarzenegger, the bodybuilder, movie star, millionaire businessman, and now winning politician, seems to have resurrected and embodied that dream.

Walter Rodgers, CNN, Graz, Austria.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And we're going to hear the words of someone who was a true friend to so many of us. The widow of Mr. Rogers will join us to talk about a new collection of his gentle wisdom.

And then later, believe it or not, a game about the ghetto. It is causing a lot of controversy, but stores are having a hard time keeping it in stock.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back. Now some of the headlines you need to know at this hour. The federal government is expected to announce new rules to protect the U.S. food supply from terrorists. The provisions would allow the government to track imported food from the time it is processed overseas to its arrival here in the United States. As many as 400,000 food facilities could be affected.

President Bush announced two new programs to combat domestic violence. Twenty million dollars will be spent on new centers where victims can find all the services they need under one roof. A second program will help children who witness domestic violence.

And a scary moment for Lady Bird Johnson, the widow of former president Lyndon Johnson. After a fall this morning, she was taken to a hospital for tests, eventually released. She is 90 years old and suffered a stroke last year.

ZAHN: In Philadelphia, protesters staged a rally today calling on the retail chain Urban Outfitters to stop selling a board game. It is called Ghettopoly an unauthorized takeoff on Monopoly. But instead of railroads and hotels, there are crack dens and prostitutes.

Joining us from Philadelphia is one of the people protesting this game, Pastor Alyn Waller of the Enon Tabernacle Baptist Church. Welcome, sir. Thank you for joining us tonight.

REV. ALYN WALLER, ENON TABERNACLE BAPTIST CHURCH: Good evening. Thank you for having me.

ZAHN: We just explained the concept of the game. What is the most objectionable part of this board game to you?

WALLER: Well, it is a celebration of urban violence. It is a derision upon Negro stereotypes, the big eyes, fat lips. I think everything about this game is to be rejected. It is making money off of a terrible stereotype. It is making fun of what is at the heart of the problem in urban America, and we have retail chains that are selling it without any sense of moral consciousness.

ZAHN: What does it say to you that this game is selling so fast? In some stores across the country, there is a two-week waiting list and a huge back-order list.

WALLER: Well, it says to me that we are living in a time where there are many that do not have a sensitivity to certain of the issues that are going on in urban America. But not only urban America because, as we understand the market plan of the maker of this game is to not just to ostracize and deride things in the urban context, but also there's a game to come out about white trash, and so forth. And so many -- the fact that this game is selling so well just suggests that many are without conscience and sensitivity to the ills in our society.

ZAHN: Well, the creator, David Chang, is defending this game and basically saying folks who don't accept it for what it is have no sense of humor. Here's what he had to say. "They just have to remember that this is a game. This is a satirical look at stereotypes in America." WALLER: There's nothing humorous about the violence in our community. There's nothing humorous about the number of children who are dying because of the drug culture in our community. There's nothing humorous about crack. There's nothing humorous about drugs. There's nothing humorous about prostitutes. There's nothing humorous about this at all.

ZAHN: Do you think your protests will make any difference at all, given the early-going success of the sales of this game?

WALLER: I think it will make a difference. And I think, ultimately, while there is early success, I think that retailers will find that it does not make good financial sense to sell this game. Urban Outfitters will feel the wrath of the consumer dollar being pulled from its cash register. And other retailers will see that it will not be worth it. We wish we could appeal to the moral consciousness of Mr. Chang and the proprietors of Urban Outfitters, but if not the moral consciousness, certainly the economic conscious will be felt.

ZAHN: Pastor Waller, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us tonight.

WALLER: Thank you.

ZAHN: Appreciate it very much. A final note. Hasbro, which own the rights to Monopoly, says of Ghettopoly, quote, "We find this game to be reprehensible and a violation of our intellectual property rights." End of quote. Now, when we contacted Urban Outfitters, who sell Ghettopoly, they declined to make any statement at all.

So who bugged the Philadelphia mayor's office? The surprising answer, if it is true, is raising even more questions.

And then on Friday, a talk with Judy Shepherd (ph), the mother of hate crime victim Matthew Shepherd.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - "ALL THE PRESIDENT'S MEN")

DUSTIN HOFFMAN: I'm going to count to 10, all right? If there's any reason we should hold on the story, hang up the phone before I get to 10. If the story's all right, you'll just be on the phone after I get to 10, all right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hang up, right?

HOFFMAN: That's right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: That, of course, was Dustin Hoffman in "All the President's Men." He was playing Carl Bernstein, one of the reporters who broke the Watergate story in "The Washington Post." Well, these days there is renewed interest in the rather arcane world of journalists, their sources and leaks, thanks to the blown cover of a CIA operative.

Earlier I spoke with Pulitzer Prize-winner Carl Bernstein, and I asked him to define the leak at the very heart of this controversy in plain English.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARL BERNSTEIN, PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST: A leak means somebody wants it out there, usually for a reason involving an axe to grind. One of the things that so interested me in this current case is -- is Novak said, he says, I didn't dig it out, it was given to me. That's a classic leak. And Novak...

ZAHN: Clue! (ph)

BERNSTEIN: Novak had a responsibility and he abrogated it. And that responsibility was to say, There was a political purpose in giving me this information. Reporters have to do that sometimes, and he should have done it.

ZAHN: So how many times have you gotten a leak that wasn't politically motivated?

BERNSTEIN: First of all...

ZAHN: I mean, people give you a leak for a reason, do they not?

BERNSTEIN: I wish I got more leaks. I think most...

ZAHN: You've been sitting on one for many, many years.

BERNSTEIN: I think -- no. No. No. In fact, that's a really good example.

ZAHN: No, that was good reporting.

BERNSTEIN: Really, most good stories come from hard reporting. When somebody throws you something over the transom, which happens very rarely, you better be real sure of what's in there, that it's what it's purported to be. And you have a responsibility to your readers, your viewers, if there's somebody grinding an axe, to say, Hey, I got this for a reason.

ZAHN: All right, so if you had been in Bob Novak's shoes and you were given that information, what would you have done with it?

BERNSTEIN: I would never -- first of all, I'm not sure why it was relevant, in the first place, except that I think Novak's column -- and Bob is a good reporter, incidentally, but he's also an ideologue, and he writes an ideological column, to some extent, with some good reporting. And that leak fit Novak's ideology.

ZAHN: Further break down with us what an "off the record"...

BERNSTEIN: "Off the record"...

ZAHN: ... briefing constitutes...

BERNSTEIN: ... usually means that whoever is giving it to you would like to see it out there, but keep him out of it. Very little that is said, especially in Washington, is really off the record. It means, Don't give any hint where it came from. If somebody comes to a reporter and says, Hey, I got a really big piece of news to give you, but you can't use it, it's off the record, you got to really -- it's very rare that a reporter would keep some good news out of the paper. So it means, Confirm it elsewhere. Find it somewhere else, but here's where you're going.

ZAHN: How about "on background"?

BERNSTEIN: "Background" usually means that an official of an organization or a government agency gives you information in which you can identify the information as coming from someone in that agency without naming the person himself or herself.

ZAHN: Let's talk about the use of unnamed "senior administration officials," as Bob Novak cited in his column. What is the red flag that should be set off with that?

BERNSTEIN: I don't think there's a red flag when you see the phrase "unnamed senior administration officials." You see it all the time. And most news that comes out of Washington that's of any import, that's not just a public announcement, usually comes from unnamed officials. We wouldn't be learning anything if we didn't have anonymous sources. But when that person is unnamed and it's obvious that that person is conveying a message to hurt somebody and to set somebody up and to -- you know, to do a political act, then you're obligated to say, Hey, this information comes from somebody with a political act in mind. And that's what Novak should have done.

ZAHN: So the next step for you, as a reporter, was to investigate why this was being leaked, who was going to be hurt by it, and examine all the repercussions...

BERNSTEIN: Well...

(CROSSTALK)

BERNSTEIN: ... I'm very reluctant. I don't like to see reporters investigating other reporters. That's the first thing.

ZAHN: No, but in terms of the information, the flow of information.

BERNSTEIN: Right. Look, the story now is, Why was this leaked? And there's also a journalistic story about the way Novak acted in this instance, I think.

ZAHN: Carl Bernstein, thanks for taking us to reporting school with you this evening.

BERNSTEIN: Good to be here.

ZAHN: Appreciate your time.

Another shocking political "whodunnit." Who hid sophisticated bugging equipment in the office of Philadelphia's mayor?

And words to live by from someone to trust in your neighborhood. The wisdom of Mr. Rogers in a new book by his widow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Now to the startling discovery inside Philadelphia's City Hall, high-tech listening devices planted in the office of Mayor John Street. CNN has confirmed tonight that the FBI did it. This discovery comes just weeks before the city's mayoral election. The latest now from Jason Carroll (ph).

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Philadelphia's mayor, John Street, wants to know why an electronic listening device ended up in his office. Police discovered it in the ceiling right above his desk on Tuesday during a routine security check and turned it over to the FBI.

MAYOR JOHN STREET (D), PHILADELPHIA: The timing is very suspicious.

CARROLL: Street, a Democrat, is in a tight race against Republican Sam Katz (ph), the election now just four weeks away. Street's campaign spokesman suggested whoever planted the bug may have been part of a GOP conspiracy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Republican Party, if you look back over the course of history, has not been -- has not been loath to attempt dirty political tricks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those charges are just totally an attempt to divert attention. I'm not interested in bringing attention to this.

CARROLL: A federal government source confirmed the FBI planted the bug, but an FBI spokeswoman in Philadelphia declined to comment and would not say if Street is the subject of an investigation. However, the spokeswoman seemed to rule out any connection to Katz.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not associated with the election in any way.

CARROLL: Street's administration says it is cooperating with two investigations into alleged parking ticket fixing and the awarding of airport contracts.

STREET: I haven't done anything wrong, and I don't know that anybody in my cabinet or in my staff around me has done anything wrong.

CARROLL: There is one area where the mayor and his rival agree. Both say the FBI knows much more than it's willing to say. (END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Jason Carroll reporting for us tonight.

I'm joined now by former NYPD detective Michael Ciravolo. He is the president of the corporate white collar and securities services division for the firm Beau Dietl & Associates. Welcome.

MICHAEL CIRAVOLO, BEAU DIETL & ASSOCIATES: Thank you.

ZAHN: Let's talk about what we know about these devices, apparently a sophisticated device requiring, what, two speakers hidden in a ceiling.

CIRAVOLO: Well, it doesn't have to require two speakers. Usually, it's a transmitter, and it's hidden someplace where no one can find it. And if it's wireless, what it does, it's radio frequency, and if there's a repeater someplace close by, it can then transmit the signal to a place miles away, where agents could be listening.

ZAHN: How long would it take to install this kind of system?

CIRAVOLO: Well, they could install it by saying that they're the cleaning people or the maintenance crew and put it in pretty quickly...

ZAHN: What, like...

CIRAVOLO: ... sometimes overnight.

ZAHN: Really? That quickly?

CIRAVOLO: Yes.

ZAHN: It was found what is being described as a routine sweep, which is done of those city hall offices. Wouldn't the feds know that there was going to be a sweep?

CIRAVOLO: Well, if a judge signs a court order and there's probable cause existing and a federal judge signed the court order, that court order could be for 30, 60, 90 days, and then it has to -- then the agents have to prove to the judge that there is criminal activity, if they want to continue it. So maybe they thought they were going to get whatever they needed within 30 or 60 days.

ZAHN: So whether it ends up being the cleaning crew assisted in the installation, it...

CIRAVOLO: No, no. FBI agents...

ZAHN: Well, no, I understand...

CIRAVOLO: ... posing...

ZAHN: ... that. But wouldn't it make sense that someone in the mayor's office would have had to have been privy to this? I mean, is there any way you can go in and install the system without at least tripping off somebody in the mayor's office that you were about to do this?

CIRAVOLO: Unlikely. Unlikely the FBI...

ZAHN: Really?

CIRAVOLO: ... would share that with anybody on the local level.

ZAHN: I'm just trying to imagine how they installed it with no one knowing.

CIRAVOLO: Well, they can get in there in the middle of the night. I mean, we've seen what they've done on organized crime cases to successfully make arrests and prosecute those cases. They're -- they have -- you know, they're very, very good at what they do, and they can send people in posing as cleaning or maintenance crew, change a lightbulb, and install the bug.

ZAHN: You're no stranger to these kind of operations, and yet, is there anything surprising about what you've learned about the extent of this operation?

CIRAVOLO: No, not really. I mean, it didn't surprise me that, you know, the administration was going to, you know, call it political dirty tricks. And it turned out it was just a criminal investigation.

ZAHN: And maybe within days, we'll have an idea of why they installed the stuff in the first place. Mike Ciravolo, thank you for dropping by. Say hi to your boss for us, Beau Dietl, a frequent guest here at CNN.

CIRAVOLO: Thank you.

ZAHN: The legacy of everybody's favorite neighbor lives on. We're going to hear the words of wisdom of Mr. Rogers in a new collection from his widow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: For more than 30 years, children had a friend in Fred Rogers and a welcome place of refuge in "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood." Now some of his wisdom has been collected in the new book, "The World According to Mister Rogers."

Joanne Rogers wrote the foreword and is here to talk about her late husband's legacy. So good of you to join us.

JOANNE ROGERS, FRED ROGERS'S WIDOW: Paula, it's a delight to be here.

ZAHN: So what I want to know is -- we all grew up in "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood." Was the guy we saw on TV the same that was guy at home with your two sons? ROGERS: People ask me the question so often, What was it like to be married to Mr. Rogers? What is it like to be married to Mr. Rogers? And I'd always say, What you see is what you get. He just is -- he was that person.

ZAHN: So he never lost his patience at home with you or the children?

ROGERS: Very -- very seldom. I was the one who lost the patience with the children!

(LAUGHTER)

ZAHN: Do you think the American public had any misconceptions about who he was and what he stood for?

ROGERS: I'm not sure that they saw the sense of humor that he had. I don't think that came out quite as much, generally.

ZAHN: Was he a silly guy?

ROGERS: Very. Very silly. We had such fun. And we -- after 50 years of marriage -- we were married 50 years. After 50 years of marriage, we could just say one punchline of a joke and go off into giggles of laughter. And yet -- and he did -- he liked whimsical things very much, whimsical humor.

ZAHN: I was always so fascinated to hear how much he thought not so much of his show about -- being about entertainment, but a way to reach kids.

ROGERS: Yes.

ZAHN: In a lot of different ways. Maybe in a way their parents could never reach them.

ROGERS: Well, that's right. Yes. And -- but he always told parents who would come to him and say, Oh, you know, my -- they would -- they would tell him how wonderful the program was for their kids. And he would always say, That's because you helped them to be able to use it.

ZAHN: Oh, that's...

ROGERS: Use the work (ph). And he truly believed that.

ZAHN: Now, you want to read something for us tonight, don't you?

ROGERS: I have something special I want to read to you.

ZAHN: Well, I'd love to hear it.

ROGERS: We're both musicians, I think.

ZAHN: I'm a cellist. And you're a?

ROGERS: I'm a pianist.

ZAHN: OK. Let's make music together, Joanne!

ROGERS: Very good! "Music has given me a way of expressing my feelings and my thoughts, and it has also given me a way of understanding more about life. For example, as you play together in a symphony orchestra, you can appreciate that each musician has something fine to offer. Each one is different, though, and each have a different song to sing. When you sing together, you make one voice. That's true of all endeavors, not just the musical ones. Finding ways to harmonize our uniqueness with the uniqueness of others can be the most fun and the most rewarding of all."

ZAHN: You were married to one very intuitive guy.

ROGERS: Yes. Yes.

ZAHN: Well, he left quite a legacy behind.

ROGERS: Yes, he did.

ZAHN: I imagine your grandchildren are quite grateful for that.

ROGERS: They are. They are.

ZAHN: What do you miss the most about Fred? Companionship? The laughter?

ROGERS: The laughter. And the sharing. Sharing things...

ZAHN: Well, he...

ROGERS: ... that are going on every day.

ZAHN: Well, he would be very proud of what you are sharing with the audience tonight. Joanne Rogers, again, thanks for sharing the book...

ROGERS: Paula, thank you.

ZAHN: ... which is a collection of a lot of what...

ROGERS: Thank you for having me.

ZAHN: ... your husband talked about his life.

ROGERS: Thank you.

ZAHN: Good luck to you.

ROGERS: Thank you.

ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here tonight. We hope you'll be back with us tomorrow night. That's when the Democratic debate will unfold right here on CNN at 8:00 PM. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. He has an exclusive interview with Siegfried Fischbacher. He is speaking for the first time on TV since that tiger attacked his partner, Roy Horn. Again, thanks for dropping by tonight.

END

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Preliminary Hearing Happen?; FBI Remains Tight-Lipped About Bug Planted In Philadelphia Mayor's Office>


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