Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
United Nations Passes Resolution on Iraq; National Food Crisis Looming?; Catholic Church in the 21st Century
Aired October 16, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, October 16. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
The United States today won an extraordinary victory at the United Nations. The Security Council voted unanimously to support a resolution that encourages other nations to send troops and money to Iraq. France, Germany and Russia all voted in favor of the resolution. So did Syria, the only Arab country represented on the Security Council.
Today's vote marks a dramatic shift of opinion in the United Nations, after its earlier resolute opposition to U.S. policy in Iraq.
Richard Roth reports from the United Nations -- Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Lou, a big step forward on the global stage, especially now dealing with Iraq, the vote, a surprise, overwhelming support for the United States, especially when, within the last 48 hours, it looked like certain abstentions from key players like Russia or France.
There's the U.S. ambassador raising his hand, along with 14 other members voting in favor of this resolution. And the U.S. delegate here was quite pleased.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: I think this is a good day for Iraq. I think it's a good day for the council and a good day for the future of Iraq. I think we're very satisfied, obviously, with the outcome. A consensus vote, 15-0, is an important accomplishment. We worked long and hard to achieve this result.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: A main point is that it tells the Iraqi Governing Council that, by December 15, it has to come up with a schedule for the holding of elections and the drafting of a constitution.
There were some other improvements to help get the Russians and the French on board, but it still wasn't quite enough for them to say they're ready to contribute troops and money to Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N. (through translator): The result we have achieved is a compromise which does not solve all the problems.
GUNTER PLEUGER, GERMAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N. (through translator): We would have wished for clearer guidelines also with regard to timing.
JEAN-MARC DE LA SABLIERE, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO U.N. (through translator): We, as France, would have preferred to have in the text of the resolution the idea of a provisional governing council established.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Still, it was an important step forward on the diplomatic stage. Secretary-General Annan seemed pleased. He was disappointed two weeks ago with the latest U.S. revised draft. And perhaps happiest of all, the president of the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, I want to thank the United Nations Security Council for unanimously passing a resolution supporting our efforts to build a peaceful and free Iraq.
(APPLAUSE)
BUSH: A democratic Iraq will stand as an example to all the Middle East. We believe and the Iraqi people will show that liberty is the hope and the right of every land.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Many diplomats here said, this won't be the last resolution on Iraq before the Security Council. But we haven't seen this much unity in quite some time on Iraq. And it may lead to improvement on other world problems, who knows, especially considering how dangerous Baghdad and elsewhere are -- Lou.
DOBBS: Richard, thank you very much -- Richard Roth, reporting from the United Nations.
Defiance from Syria today on another issue involving this country. Syria said it will not be swayed by a vote in the House of Representatives to punish Damascus for supporting terrorism. Congress accused Syria of harboring Islamists who want to kill Americans in Iraq and launch terrorist attacks against Israel.
Kitty Pilgrim is here now and has the report for us -- Kitty.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Syria's been on the list of states that sponsor terrorism for more than two decades. But tensions have been mounting since the war in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM (voice-over): Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, chairwoman on the House Subcommittee on the Middle East, says Syria supports terrorism and it's time to act.
REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN (R), FLORIDA: They are rat lines, which is they call them, from Syria into Iraq, where terrorists groups are going into Iraq to kill or our forces, our men and women fighting over there for Iraq to be free.
PILGRIM: There was hope Syria would moderate when the young president, Bashar Assad, came to power after the death of his father, Hafez al-Assad. But many experts say, to maintain power, he must defer to hard-line, old-guard generals. Last May, Secretary of State Colin Powell warned Assad that Congress would act if Syria didn't stop supporting terrorism.
Earlier this month, tensions flared when Israel struck an alleged Palestinian militant camp near Damascus in response to a bombing in Haifa which killed 20. Included among the list of sanctions, banning U.S. exports to Syria, other than food and medicine, a ban on investment, a ban on Syrian airplanes in U.S. airspace, a freeze on Syrian assets and reduced diplomatic contacts with Syria.
The U.S. only exports some $300 million worth of goods to Syria, but experts say the message would be loud and clear.
SHIBLEY TELHAMI, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: If, in fact, Syria is hosting the groups that are operating in Iraq, is it a problem for U.S. forces. And the U.S. is going to make an issue of it. And the Syrians are going to have to expect that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the bill passed with massive support in the House, 398-4. It looks like it will easily pass in the Senate. It has 77 co-sponsors, which certainly suggests overwhelming support -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim.
Well, one of Asia's longest-serving leaders, the prime minister of Malaysia, today launched an attack against Jews and Israel. He said Jews rule the world by proxy and they make other people fight and die for them. At the same time, he called upon Islam to consider new ways.
Maria Ressa reports from Malaysia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA RESSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Prayer opening a summit of 57 nations with a common tradition and religion, Islam. Formed in 1969 to support the Palestinians, the Middle East continues to dominate the OIC, The Organization of Islamic Conference.
MAHATHIR MOHAMAD, MALAYSIAN PRIME MINISTER: Today, the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them. RESSA (on camera): In a mixture of religion and power politics, Prime Minister Mahathir recapped centuries of Muslim history in a provocative and combative speech. Yet, it was also a call for reflection and self-criticism, asking Arab and Muslim states to step back from anger and violence.
MAHATHIR: Is there no other way then to ask our young people to blow themselves up and kill people and invite the massacre of more of our own people?
RESSA (voice-over): His solution is for the Muslim world to unite to consolidate its strengths and gather the political will to act rationally for their interests.
Maria Ressa, CNN, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today praised the outstanding military record of an Army general who said radical Islamists hate America because it's a Christian nation. Secretary Rumsfeld declined to criticize Lieutenant General William Boykin, deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence and war fighting support.
NBC News reported, the general has told Christian gatherings that the battle with radical Islamists is a fight with Satan. General Boykin also said radical Islamist terrorists do not represent the Muslim faith.
Secretary Rumsfeld today also criticized a military newspaper poll suggesting soldiers in Iraq suffer low morale. He said the survey in the "Stars and Stripes" newspaper was what he termed informal and unscientific.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as the U.S. military's preparing to possibly alert four more National Guard units go to Iraq, that informal survey that you talked about does show that morale is lagging a bit.
The survey involved a questionnaire that was submitted to about 1,900 troops back in August. It found that only 16 percent said that morale was high or very high, while nearly half, 49 percent, said morale was low or very low. The Pentagon acknowledges that, even though this survey is unscientific and that it was done before troops got breaks for rest and relaxation, it does reflect the very tough conditions in Iraq, which is still a war zone.
And top officials here also admit that, even when they do visit troops and talk to them about morale, they don't always get the real story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: I also worry, as a four-star, somebody's always -- they're bringing us all the happy folks. And I want to see the folks that have complaints. And sometimes, they won't let them near me. So we know that phenomena exists out there. And that's why we have our tentacles out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Perhaps even more worrisome is that an equal percentage, 49 percent, again indicated that they were either unlikely or very unlikely to reenlist when their time was up, while only 31 percent said they were very likely or likely to stay in. Still, the Pentagon insists that, except for a slight slip in retention in the National Guard, recruiting is not suffering.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Overall, the indicators remain good. On the other hand, the effects of a stress on the force are unlikely to be felt immediately. They're much more likely to be felt down the road.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, one way to boost morale would be to bring troops home and not replace them. And the Pentagon indicated today that it wants to do just that. The Pentagon's comptroller, Dov Zakheim, testifying on Capitol Hill, said that the Pentagon plans by next year, by the end of the next fiscal year, to reduce the number of troops in Iraq to about 113,000, down from 147,000 -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, the defense of General Boykin, what is the attitude there at the Pentagon? Is this the end of that?
MCINTYRE: Well, the attitude here is that they don't think there's much to it. The chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Richard Myers, said that members of the military in uniform can make religious statements when they're at religious events.
He said, at first blush, it didn't seem there was much to it. The question is whether General Boykin went beyond what was called for and suggested something that was in contradiction to the U.S. official policy, which is that this is not a war against Islam, but a war against the enemies of the United States. But it doesn't appear that he's in for any sort of punitive action or anything.
But we are expecting that he will release some kind of statement either tonight or tomorrow.
DOBBS: The general made it pretty clear that he was -- that radical Islamists, in his judgment, do not in any way represent Islam. That is not satisfactory to some of the people there?
MCINTYRE: Well, I think they were looking at some of the other statements that indicated -- like, for instance, when he apparently made a reference to a Somali warlord, that his God was bigger than their God or something, it seemed to be pitting one religion against another.
Again, people are allowed to have religious beliefs that are exclusive to their religion. And it's really a matter of judgment. At this point, there's no indication the Pentagon's even going to review this case.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent, thank you.
President Bush today flew to Asia for a visit that will take him to six countries over six days. At the top of the president's agenda, the war against terror and radical Islamists. The president's tour will end with a visit to Australia, one of this country's closest allies. Australia sent combat troops to both Afghanistan and Iraq.
In the Middle East today, Palestinian police arrested seven, after the terrorist bomb attack that killed three Americans in Gaza yesterday. Police said they are still searching for two other suspects. A team of FBI agents has arrived in the area to help with that investigation. Authorities say the attack was carried out by a breakaway faction of radical Islamists.
Coming up next, our special report, "A Crowded Nation" -- tonight, the effect of a growing population on the quality and quantity of this country's food. The food supply is in danger. Peter Viles reports.
And "Exporting America," exporting jobs at a staggering rate, in fact. Tonight, you will be shocked to hear who's now giving those high-value jobs away. You guessed it. It's got something to do with the government.
And a $87 billion battle on the floor of both Houses of Congress -- Senator Tom Harkin joins us. He says he isn't signing a blank check for Iraq. He's our guest.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, in our special report "A Crowded Nation," a national crisis looms, caused in part by a rapidly growing population. The problem is the food supply. Because of our population growth and other factors, including far too much commercial fishing, to the overdevelopment of our farmland, this nation is clearly headed for trouble.
Peter Viles is here know now and has the report -- Pete.
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, we grow up in this country somehow believing we have this inexhaustible supply of farmland and of food. But that's simply not the case. The truth is, current policies and practices are unsustainable.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) VILES (voice-over): For seafood chef Rick Moonen, money is no object. But for years, he has been boycotting certain popular fish, from Atlantic swordfish to Chilean sea bass, in a crusade against aggressive fishing techniques that threat to wipe out entire stocks.
RICK MOONEN, CHEF: If we sit around and wait for the government to do something about it, we're going to be eating canned tofu, flavored with tuna or something, because there won't be any left. Seriously, we're going to be loving fish to death. It's going to be gone.
VILES: Commercial fishing is now so ruthlessly effective that 86 different stocks monitored by the federal government are so depleted, so threatened, the government classifies them as overfished, including haddock, cod, Atlantic sea scallops, and bluefish. Researches believe the ocean looked like this 40 years ago, and now this, after too much fishing. That excessive fishing and pollution have created giant dead zones in the ocean.
RANDY OLSON, MARINE BIOLOGIST: One of the biggest of which is in the Gulf of Mexico that is the result of the waste coming out of the Mississippi River that has caused a region, they say, that's larger than the size of the state of New Jersey in which there's little more than jellyfish and bacteria there and none of the original marine life.
VILES: Still, this is a nation that takes fresh seafood for granted and fresh meats and produce, a land of plenty on a collision course with crisis, because the nation's main source of food, its oceans of farmland, is always at risk.
It takes an acre, slightly more of cropland, to feed one person per year. But from 1982 to 2001, cropland available to feed Americans declined, from 420 million acres to 370 million, while the nation's population rose by 60 million. That means the point at which America can no longer feed its population is fast approaching.
RALPH GROSSI, AMERICAN FARMLAND TRUST: We have been losing about 1.2 Million acres of farmland each year. And much of this is the very best, most productive land near our metropolitan areas, because our ancestors were pretty bright people. They settled where the best farmland was.
VILES: Farmland has been disappearing most rapidly on the far edges of sprawling cities, in Texas, Ohio, Georgia, North Carolina, and Illinois.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: The coming crisis in food in this country has huge ramifications. It threatens $50 billion a year in U.S. agricultural exports. And that means, Lou, that it also threatens the people who receive those exports, people all around the world who are fed by the American farmer.
DOBBS: Not only is it a crisis for this country. But those countries who are taking over $50 billion of our foodstuffs now, their populations are also rising dramatically.
VILES: In some cases, even more rapidly.
DOBBS: Pete, thank you very much -- Peter Viles.
Tomorrow here on our special report "A Crowded Nation," we look at whether the United States has enough land to support the needs of our fast-growing population. That's tomorrow night. Please join us.
We have been reporting here for months about American businesses exporting jobs overseas, those jobs from manufacturing, technology, high-value jobs. And just when you thought American business couldn't get any more shortsighted, here comes the state government of Indiana.
Taking a look now at this Web page behind me, if you can see it, it is the state's Department of Workforce Development home page. And it promises, rather clearly, Indiana citizens who are looking for jobs and careers in training a solution in today's global economy. So what has the Department of Workforce Development done?
Well, it's just awarded a four-year, $15 million contract to a company to update its computers. Here's the twist: That company that it's contracted with is based in India. The computers, of course, will be used to help the good citizens of Indiana find work. There's more. The state of Indiana hired a Bombay firm, Tata, for that project, which beat out two American companies, Deloitte and Accenture.
Well, actually, Accenture doesn't exactly qualify as an American firm since it avoids paying U.S. taxes through incorporation in Bermuda. One more development: The majority of Indiana's 65 newest workers come from India on L-1 visas. The commissioner of department defended his decision, saying, the contract will save Indiana taxpayers millions of dollars. We assume he will have fun telling that to the 160,000 unemployed Hoosiers.
Incidentally, Indiana said it was impressed with Tata's experience. It turns out New Mexico hired Tata two years ago to do similar work. We asked, by the way, Governor Joseph Kernan to join us to explain the rationale for the decision, but the governor was unable to join us tonight. Perhaps another time.
Coming up next: the rising cot of prescription drugs, American families forced to take drastic and potentially dangerous measures to meet their medical needs, at the same time, raising the question, why are we paying more for pharmaceuticals than citizens of other countries? Louise Schiavone will report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: This week, the state of Illinois launched an online petition asking the Food and Drug Administration to allow its citizens to buy cheaper prescription drugs from Canada. The effort comes as more and more Americans are crossing the northern boarder to buy their medications at significant discounts. However, the FDA says it may not be safe.
Louise Schiavone has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The mayor of Springfield, Massachusetts, is seeing big savings from using Canadian online pharmacy CanaRx to provide drugs for his municipal health plan.
MICHAEL ALBANO, MAYOR OF SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS: We're looking at anywhere from $4 million to $9 million on an annual basis in Springfield, Massachusetts, a pretty good chunk of money that can be redirected into vital public services such as police, fire, public education.
SCHIAVONE: Mayor Albano himself buys insulin for his teenage son from Canada at an annual savings of $250. The idea is spreading. Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, and Minnesota are considering similar measures. The price differentials are compelling.
For example, 90 Coumadin pills, the blood thinner, cost about $90 in the U.S., $50 in Canada; 60 anti-cancer tamoxifen pills roughly $52 in the U.S., $38 in Canada, 30 anti-inflammatory Vioxx pills $78 in the U.S., $37 in Canada.
Why the big difference in prices? Like European nations, the Canadians maintain aggressive price controls, forcing prices down to what U.S. and drug company officials argue are artificially low levels.
TOM MILLER, CATO INSTITUTE: They are free-riding on our research and development. Now, to some extent, we benefit from that, because the major pharmaceutical employment and growth in the entire industry is moving to the United States.
SCHIAVONE: And federal regulators warn that Americans who buy so-called Canadian drugs via the Internet may not be getting what they ordered.
WILLIAM HUBBARD, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: For instance, we had one Web site in which the gentleman ordered a product for his prostate enlargement. And the Canadian pharmacy he ordered from sent him a drug that was from India, a counterfeit drug from India.
SCHIAVONE: And officials warn that, as Americans continue to buy Canadian drugs, there will be further opportunities for drug counterfeiters.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Lou, this is one of those problems that seems to spring from the nature of the Internet. Its global reach and anonymity make the World Wide Web a risky place to buy something as crucial to your health as prescription drugs -- Lou.
DOBBS: But whether on the Internet, Louise, or whether crossing the boarder to make the purchase, those Canadian pharmaceuticals are cheaper than in this country. Is there any likelihood we're going to see that difference in price disappear?
SCHIAVONE: Well, one of the concerns of the Canadian pharmaceutical industry is that, as more and more Americans bring pressure to bear on the Canadian market, there's going to be a rise in prices in Canada.
But the Canadian drug market, there are 25 million people in Canada. And there are appreciably more in the United States. And so far, the drug industry believes that the pressure that's brought to bear in Canada is not going to be anything compared to that in the United States.
DOBBS: No volume discount for Americans, huh?
SCHIAVONE: That's right.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Louise Schiavone.
Coming up next: Pope John Paul II celebrates 25 years as pontiff. Alessio Vinci will report from the Vatican. And Father Thomas Reese joins me here in New York on the future of the Catholic Church.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Leader of the Anglican Church today issued a scathing statement condemning the American Episcopal Church for approving its first openly gay bishop. In an unprecedented summit, the Anglican leaders gathered for two days of secretive talks on the divisions in the church. Anglican leaders say homosexuality violates scripture. And they've called upon the archbishop of Canterbury to investigate and possibly punish the Episcopal Church.
In the Catholic Church, hundreds of sex abuse victims are close to a $85 million settlement with the Boston Archdiocese tonight. The church and an attorney who represents 120 of the plaintiffs said they're optimistic they will reach the required 80 percent approval in order to go ahead with that settlement. That payout will be the largest ever in a civil case against a Catholic diocese. The sex scandal erupted after church documents revealed officials had moved abusive priests from parish to parish, even after their crimes were discovered.
In Vatican City tonight, hundreds of thousands of pilgrims gathering to celebrate Pope John II's 25th anniversary as leader of the Roman Catholic Church. The pope assured the throngs outside Saint Peter's Basilica that he will not resign, despite his declining health.
Alessio Vinci joins us now from Vatican City with the story -- Alessio.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello to, Lou.
The 25th anniversary that will be certainly remembered for a pope who was weak and frail. John Paul II, on this 25th anniversary, was wheeled into Saint Peter's Square on a platform, on a moving platform pushed by aides. The pope, during his homily, recalled this day October 16, 1978, 25 years ago, telling the flock, "How could I not tremble?" saying that he was obviously very moved for being chosen the 264th pontiff, adding that he was very happy to share this with the people in this square.
But he also asked for help from the same people in the square to pray for him, to give him enough strength to continue in this ministry. The pope, who spoke with a very frail voice, did not manage to finish the homily in its entirety, only read the first three graphs and then allowed one of his trusted aides to finish up the speech for him, nevertheless, mustering enough strength to pick up the celebration of the mass until the end, where the pope thanked in eight different languages the pilgrims, the priests, the archbishops, and the cardinals, and the dignitaries who have flocked to St. Peter's Square on this very special day.
And in the crowd, some people in tears, obviously moved, some of them perhaps because they believe this was perhaps the last chance to see the pope -- back to you, Lou.
DOBBS: Alessio, thank you very much -- Alessio Vinci from the Vatican.
Joining us now for more on Pope John Paul II's 25 year as pontiff and the many challenges that face the Catholic Church in this country in particular is father Thomas Reese. He is the editor in chief of "America: National Catholic" magazine.
And it's good to have you with us.
FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "AMERICA: NATIONAL CATHOLIC WEEKLY": Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: This is, I assume, a very bittersweet time for Catholics, the pope in failing health, 25 years of his reign as the leader of the church. What will this pope be best known for, for those 25 years?
REESE: Oh, I think he's going to go down in history for a number of things, certainly for his role in the fall of communism, his support for solidarity, the Polish freedom movement.
He started the avalanche that wiped out communism in Europe and through the Soviet Union. I think he'll be remembered also for being the pope that began the improvement in relations between Catholics and Jews. Children, Catholic and Jewish children, centuries from now will look back at this period and see it as the time when Catholics and Jews began to treat one another as brothers and sisters again. I mean, this is of millennial importance.
DOBBS: The biggest challenges that the pope, this pope, the church, has failed to meet, in your judgment? REESE: Well, I think there's a lot of challenges that we have. Certainly, in developed countries, there's a growing alienation among women against the church's hierarchy. In developing countries, we still have concern about poor people who are hungry and jobless, that are in need of help. So the pope's message has been one of justice, of peace. And that message is going to continue to need to be preached.
DOBBS: What is your sense of how the church will deal with a number of critical issues? Amongst them, we have a population growth rate that is exploding worldwide, in this country as well. We have AIDS reaching across Africa. We have a church that is not recommending the use of condoms in Africa, where it is desperately needed as a way for protection against disease, as well, as one would argue, for population control.
How do you think the church will grapple with those issues, the next pope will grapple with those issues?
REESE: Well, I wouldn't expect any major changes in the church's teachings on those issues in the future. I mean, John Paul II has appointed all but five of the 135 cardinals that will be the potential electors of his successor. And he's done exactly what you or I would do in choosing cardinals. He's basically picked people who support his views on church teaching and church doctrine.
DOBBS: All but five of 135? A highly effective a pope, as well as politician.
REESE: Well, when you're around for 25 years, you outlive all of the cardinals.
DOBBS: He's also appointed more saints?
(CROSSTALK)
REESE: He's canonized -- he's broken all the records. He's visited more countries. He's canonized more saints. He's been seen by more people probably than any other person who's ever lived. The millions of people who come out to hear him teach, hear him preach, to pray with him have been huge.
DOBBS: His successor, this pope obviously in failing health, various and sometimes conflicting, but predominantly suggestions that this pope is nearing the end of his reign. Will there be an American pope?
REESE: I don't think so. I think that's the one category that I don't think has a chance of being elected.
The problem is that, if an American was elected, most of the people in the Third World would think that either Wall Street bought the election or the CIA fixed the election. And the Catholic Church doesn't that need that kind of baggage that an American would bring to the papacy.
Through the centuries, the church has always kept the papacy out of the hands of the superpower, whether...
DOBBS: Well, speaking as an American, a non-Catholic, I'm hurt that you would consider us baggage in this case.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: But we understand. Do you think it will be Italian?
REESE: I think they will always look at the Italian candidates, all other things being equal. But all other things are never equal. I think he broke the precedent. Now it's wide open to anybody.
DOBBS: Will this be an instance of a church not being afraid to be parochial?
REESE: Oh, absolutely. I think there's a good chance of a cardinal from the Third World being elected pope.
DOBBS: Father Thomas Reese, we thank you for being here. I hope you will join us often. Thank you.
REESE: Thank you.
DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on the role of church leaders: "I have always considered a clergyman as the father of a larger family than he is able to maintain" -- that from British writer Samuel Johnson.
Coming up next: Congress battles over the president's request for billions of dollars for Iraq. Jonathan Karl reports from Capitol Hill. Senator Tom Harkin joins us to tell us why he says, no blank check for Iraq.
And "Grange On Point" tonight. The Pentagon says it needs foreign troops in Iraq, but doesn't want any more American troops. At the same time, the Pentagon says it doesn't want to raise the number of people in the military, even though we are extending the mission worldwide and exhausting our National Guardsmen and reserves. General David Grange on point and next.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On Capitol Hill tonight, the administration's $20 billion plan to rebuild Iraq is meeting bipartisan resistance, a group of senators from both sides of the aisle proposing a key change to the plan. And that could lead to a major showdown.
Jonathan Karl is on Capitol Hill and has the very latest for us -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the White House has been insisting, and insisting forcefully, that that money for Iraq must not be a loan, that it must be a grant given directly to Iraq, not to be paid back. He is facing some opposition up here on Capitol Hill in the United States Senate, which is right now debating this issue, from Republicans. There are at least six, and possibly as many as 10, Republicans that are poised to defy the president tonight on an issue that has been a top White House priority. Right now, the vote is simply too close to call. Nobody knows how this will go down, but it will go down some time tonight.
And right now, it looks as though the president may be on the verge of a major defeat on this question, although, on the overall question about whether or not he will get the $20 billion for reconstruction and the $67 billion for the troops in Iraq, that looks like he will ultimately get that by tomorrow. But the big question is, will the reconstruction money be a loan or will it be an outright grant?
Now, while this is going on, you have several prominent Democrats who are saying that they will vote against the entire $87 billion package, whether or not it is a loan or a grant. People like Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi in the House is saying that she will vote against it. Prominent Democrats in the Senate, like Tom Harkin, who you will be talking to, Ted Kennedy, Democratic presidential candidates, like John Kerry and John Edwards, are all saying that they will vote no on this entire package, regardless of whether or not it's loans or it is grants.
That has Tom DeLay, the Republican leader over in the House, saying that Democrats are abandoning the troops in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: That old debating tactic of, "I support the troops, but," it just isn't going to cut it this time. If you support the war and you support the troops, you must vote for this bill. The war that we're fighting can't be won without a safe and secure Iraq. It cannot be won without the reconstruction funding in this bill. It's just that simple.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: A short while ago, I spoke with Senator Ted Kennedy and asked him about that, the Republican charges that he is abandoning the troops. This is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: The best way to protect our troop is to have a changed and altered policy. That's what my vote is about. It's a vote for the troops. It says to the administration, go back to the drawing boards. Bring in other troops from other nations around the world. Gain the support of the international community to offset the burden that are on American taxpayers, and develop a strategy that can make sure that American troops can be brought home with honor.
(END VIDEO CLIP) KARL: The vote on that critical question of loans vs. grant will happen tonight. The final vote on this is likely not to happen until tomorrow, though, Lou.
DOBBS: All right, Jonathan Karl, thank you very much.
Well, my guest says the White House is, in effect, asking for a blank check to rebuild Iraq. And Senator Tom Harkin says he is not ready to approve such a thing. He's senior Democrat on the Senate Appropriations Committee. And he joins us tonight from Capitol Hill.
Senator, good to have you with us.
SEN. TOM HARKIN (D), IOWA: Hi, Lou.
DOBBS: What do you say to the argument, as advanced by Congressman DeLay, that, if you voted for the war, as you did, you have to back up the president and support the troops with this money?
HARKIN: Well, I have no problem in backing the president. It just depends on whether we give him a blank check or whether we exercise our constitutional responsibility to keep our fingers on the purse strings and to make this administration accountable for the money that it does spend. Really, what the administration really is saying, Lou: Give us the money and trust me.
Well, a year ago, I did. I voted for the Iraqi resolution a year ago, because I opted to trust the president, because he said: Trust me. We got the evidence that Saddam Hussein is in cahoots with al Qaeda. Not true. He said: Trust me that they've got weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological weapons, and the means to deliver them. Again, not true. He also said: Trust me that we won't have the taxpayers of America reconstructing Iraq, because they have all that oil and they can reconstruct themselves. Again, not true.
DOBBS: So, with that analysis -- and I think, perhaps in fairness, I should assert here that we can say that, at least it goes to weapons of mass destruction, it's been six months, but we can say not yet, perhaps in there at least, to qualify that issue -- this president wants to make this a gift. Are you willing to take -- to provide the money as a gift or would you be amongst those who prefers that this money be a loan, the $20 billion for the reconstruction of Iraq?
HARKIN: Well, I thought the best approach was Senator Dorgan, when he said, we set up a reconstruction finance authority in Iraq, and they would sell securities in future oil production and raise money on the world market, and use that money to rebuild Iraq and then pay back by securitizing the oil production in the future.
But we lost that amendment. We tried today -- what Senator Byrd, Senator Kennedy and I and others tried today again to say, well, listen, we'll give you $5 billion. And then in -- by April, if you want any more money, Mr. President, you've got to come back to Congress and show us that you've got a U.N. resolution that will internationalize the military operations under our command, that will internationalize the reconstruction and get other countries involved in rebuilding Iraq. Then come back and let us vote again to see whether or not we should give you the rest of the money.
The World Bank, Lou, said that there's no way that Iraq can spend more than $5 billion in the whole next year, yet the administration's asking us give them $21 billion to spend. And so that's why -- and, again, the indications are more and more that this money is really just being thrown out there with no accountability.
DOBBS: Senator, today's vote in the United Nations, a remarkable success, I'm sure you agree, for this administration. Does that go a long ways toward satisfying your, at least in stages, early concerns about the multinational aspect of the reconstruction of Iraq?
HARKIN: Well, let's keep in mind that the vote in the U.N., again, while a step in the right direction, Kofi Annan has said that they're not going to go back in again until things are more secure in Iraq. And the best way to get that secure is to get international forces in there.
And yet it doesn't seem like this administration is willing to take that step. So I hope that this sort of vote in the U.N. is not seen as some kind of a massive step forward, that the U.N. is now going to send the blue helmets in to do the work. That's simply not going to happen.
DOBBS: Yes, I think we should note, though, that Kofi Annan said he had serious reservations about the U.S. resolution, but it was passed unanimously.
Senator Tom Harkin, as always, good talking with you. Thank you, sir.
HARKIN: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Tonight's quote is from Capitol Hill, where members of Congress talked about the reconstruction of Iraq. And we thought two of them worth your time.
The first: "Democrats are united in criticism of the president. He had no postwar Iraq plan. As you know, part of the tens of billions of dollars that he is asking for today is to pull his chestnuts out of the fire. This is a bailout for a failed Bush postwar policy" -- that, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi.
And from a fellow Democrat on why this administration must stop what he says are oil contract abuses in Iraq: "Millions of Americans want to help Iraqis, but they don't want to be fleeced" -- Congressman Henry Waxman.
Turning now to our poll on U.S. policy on Iraq, the question: Now that the United States has the support of the United Nations, do you have greater confidence in the U.S. Iraq policy, yes, no or maybe? Please vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you coming right up. Tonight in "Grange on Point," hundreds of thousands of American troops are deployed in 120 countries around the world. But the United States military today has fewer troops than it did before Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, a time when the population of this country was half what it is today.
General David Grange joins us now from Chicago.
General, good to have you with us.
RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: General, let's start with the issue of troops. The Pentagon says it wants more troops in Iraq, Turkish troops in this instance, and others, wherever they can get them, but doesn't want other Americans in there and doesn't want an overall increase in the level of force, more Americans in uniform. Does this make any sense?
GRANGE: Well, I think the idea of bringing the Turkish troops is, let's say anywhere from 6,000 to 10,000, is a good idea, though you have to be very savvy in what area in Iraq you put the Turkish troops. But any International troops that are added to the coalition forces add an international flavor to the operation, very similar to what we did in Bosnia in that.
DOBBS: Sure.
GRANGE: And it helps with the acceptance of the transition to a secure democratic governing environment.
There are no -- there are not many U.S. troops available to replace those that are already there.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Well, there are 37,000 in Korea. They're 112,000 in Europe. We're in 120 countries around the country, Dave, as you well know, better than me. Those troops are available. The Pentagon wants to be, under Secretary Rumsfeld, mean, light, agile and innovative. Why not move those troops around?
GRANGE: Well, I think some are going to be moved. I think you'll see, in the next several years, a realignment of troop disposition around the world, on the Korean Peninsula, in Europe in particular.
In fact, if you look at Europe right now, Germany, half the forces that are there are already in Iraq or in Afghanistan. And so they're already deployed. So they are going to have to realign.
DOBBS: Yet we're watching National Guardsman -- the poll that was reported in "Stars and Stripes," we have seen the secretary of defense respond to it. We have seen General Myers respond to it. The fact is, we have low morale. It's not because of the media. It's because of the mission and the time that they've been there. Wouldn't you agree? Is the primary issue...
(CROSSTALK)
HARKIN: Yes.
The morale issue is about uncertainty, uncertainty on time. The morale is about understanding the mission. The morale is about constant deployments.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, because I just found this extraordinary to hear a four-star general say, when he was talking to reporters today, General Myers -- he says: I want to see the folks that have complaints and sometimes they won't let them near me.
Now, you're the general. And I would make a lousy general. But if I were the general, I assure you, I would get to where I wanted to be. What in the world? A general doesn't get to do what he wants?
GRANGE: Well, actually, a lot of generals don't get to do what they want. And it is very usual that, a lot of times, the higher- ranking personnel do not get to see who they want, because they're whisked around so quickly.
Some of it is not really hiding certain soldiers, troops from the higher-ranking officer. It's just the time that they actually allocate to the visit. But, again, if you're not proud of any of your troops -- and you're going to have some characters that are not as good as others -- then maybe you shouldn't be in command of them.
DOBBS: General Dave Grange, as always, it's great to see you. Thank you. And we appreciate it.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: General David Grange.
Coming up next, we'll share some of your thoughts on illegal aliens and the exporting of high-value American jobs, and the Chinese space program, including a very clever idea from one of our viewers about how the American space program could perhaps save a few billion American tax dollars.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. The question: Now that the United States has the support of the United Nations, do you have more confidence in the U.S. Iraq policy? Thirteen percent of you said yes; 76 percent said no; 11 percent said maybe. Now, that's a tough 76 percent.
On Wall Street, a reasonably tough day. The major averages finished little changed, the Dow down 11, the Nasdaq up 11, the S&P up 3.
Christine Romans with the market -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Specialists and the New York Stock Exchange. The New York Stock Exchange, Lou, says that its specialists misbehaved. They got in the way of their customer orders for their own profit. And they will be disciplined.
It's the result of a months-long investigation and comes days after Fidelity and others questioned the integrity of the specialist system. Interim NYSE Chairman John Reed said specialists misbehaved, yet he defended the way the Big Board trades stocks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN REED, INTERIM NYSE CHAIRMAN: If there ever were to come to be a time when the specialist system didn't serve us well, we would have to acknowledge that. At this point, we don't believe we're there. And we think examination would support our position.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: How many firms were fined?
ROMANS: It looks like they're going to try to fine about five of them.
DOBBS: And there are a total of?
(LAUGHTER)
ROMANS: Five big specialist firms out of the New York Stock Exchange.
Now, critics say, Lou, that electronic trade would be better for investors, keeping greedy hands out of the middle of the action. Meanwhile, former Fred Alger management executive James Connelly has pleaded guilty to evidence tampering in the probe of illegal mutual fund trading. E-mails show he encouraged employees to destroy e-mail and other documents. He faces four years in prison. He's agreed to $400,000 fine with the SEC.
And, tonight, Lou, the subpoenas still flying, Massachusetts regulators also probing in on mutual funds, all the big companies.
DOBBS: OK, a fun day on Wall Street.
ROMANS: It sure was.
DOBBS: Christine, thanks -- Christine Romans.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts.
From Gig Harbor, Washington: "Lou, your concern with the mass transfer of American jobs to overseas locations is the No. 1 problem facing middle-class Americans. Even my home mortgage is now processed in India. Any politician that addresses this problem will have my vote. Don't let them sweep this under the rug any longer" -- that from Will Ellwanger.
From Gretna, Louisiana: "We were known as the melting other of the world. And for a long time, the mixture was good and cultures were merged nicely. Now the melting pot is running over and the mixture is beginning to sour. So it's time for an immigration moratorium" -- that from Remus Hebert.
And from Crestview, Florida: "Illegal aliens provide cheap labor, or do they? They don't pay income tax, yet our social services often must support their needs, which puts a strain on those services for which we pay with our taxes" -- Sandy Brendel.
From Canoga Park, California: "Thank you for dealing with illegal immigration. What is it about the word illegal that people don't understand? Our medical and welfare sources are breaking our backs. It's got to stop. Thanks for you reporting what no politician wants to talk about" -- that from Ray Wiles.
From Palo Alto, California: "Your story about the new space race with China got to me thinking about how we could save billions of U.S. tax dollars. Since the policy of this nation is to outsource everything, why don't we just outsource NASA and the space program to China or Russia? Our rockets would then say, "Made in China," as almost everything else already does."
Interesting idea, Paul, but we're trying to suggest maybe we rethink this outsourcing thing, but an interesting idea, nonetheless.
We love hearing from you. E-mail us at LouDobbs@CNN.com.
That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us.
Tomorrow, in our special report "A Crowded Nation," we look at whether we have enough land to support this booming population.
For all of us here, good night from New York.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Crisis Looming?; Catholic Church in the 21st Century>
Aired October 16, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, October 16. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
The United States today won an extraordinary victory at the United Nations. The Security Council voted unanimously to support a resolution that encourages other nations to send troops and money to Iraq. France, Germany and Russia all voted in favor of the resolution. So did Syria, the only Arab country represented on the Security Council.
Today's vote marks a dramatic shift of opinion in the United Nations, after its earlier resolute opposition to U.S. policy in Iraq.
Richard Roth reports from the United Nations -- Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Lou, a big step forward on the global stage, especially now dealing with Iraq, the vote, a surprise, overwhelming support for the United States, especially when, within the last 48 hours, it looked like certain abstentions from key players like Russia or France.
There's the U.S. ambassador raising his hand, along with 14 other members voting in favor of this resolution. And the U.S. delegate here was quite pleased.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: I think this is a good day for Iraq. I think it's a good day for the council and a good day for the future of Iraq. I think we're very satisfied, obviously, with the outcome. A consensus vote, 15-0, is an important accomplishment. We worked long and hard to achieve this result.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: A main point is that it tells the Iraqi Governing Council that, by December 15, it has to come up with a schedule for the holding of elections and the drafting of a constitution.
There were some other improvements to help get the Russians and the French on board, but it still wasn't quite enough for them to say they're ready to contribute troops and money to Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N. (through translator): The result we have achieved is a compromise which does not solve all the problems.
GUNTER PLEUGER, GERMAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N. (through translator): We would have wished for clearer guidelines also with regard to timing.
JEAN-MARC DE LA SABLIERE, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO U.N. (through translator): We, as France, would have preferred to have in the text of the resolution the idea of a provisional governing council established.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Still, it was an important step forward on the diplomatic stage. Secretary-General Annan seemed pleased. He was disappointed two weeks ago with the latest U.S. revised draft. And perhaps happiest of all, the president of the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, I want to thank the United Nations Security Council for unanimously passing a resolution supporting our efforts to build a peaceful and free Iraq.
(APPLAUSE)
BUSH: A democratic Iraq will stand as an example to all the Middle East. We believe and the Iraqi people will show that liberty is the hope and the right of every land.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Many diplomats here said, this won't be the last resolution on Iraq before the Security Council. But we haven't seen this much unity in quite some time on Iraq. And it may lead to improvement on other world problems, who knows, especially considering how dangerous Baghdad and elsewhere are -- Lou.
DOBBS: Richard, thank you very much -- Richard Roth, reporting from the United Nations.
Defiance from Syria today on another issue involving this country. Syria said it will not be swayed by a vote in the House of Representatives to punish Damascus for supporting terrorism. Congress accused Syria of harboring Islamists who want to kill Americans in Iraq and launch terrorist attacks against Israel.
Kitty Pilgrim is here now and has the report for us -- Kitty.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Syria's been on the list of states that sponsor terrorism for more than two decades. But tensions have been mounting since the war in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM (voice-over): Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, chairwoman on the House Subcommittee on the Middle East, says Syria supports terrorism and it's time to act.
REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN (R), FLORIDA: They are rat lines, which is they call them, from Syria into Iraq, where terrorists groups are going into Iraq to kill or our forces, our men and women fighting over there for Iraq to be free.
PILGRIM: There was hope Syria would moderate when the young president, Bashar Assad, came to power after the death of his father, Hafez al-Assad. But many experts say, to maintain power, he must defer to hard-line, old-guard generals. Last May, Secretary of State Colin Powell warned Assad that Congress would act if Syria didn't stop supporting terrorism.
Earlier this month, tensions flared when Israel struck an alleged Palestinian militant camp near Damascus in response to a bombing in Haifa which killed 20. Included among the list of sanctions, banning U.S. exports to Syria, other than food and medicine, a ban on investment, a ban on Syrian airplanes in U.S. airspace, a freeze on Syrian assets and reduced diplomatic contacts with Syria.
The U.S. only exports some $300 million worth of goods to Syria, but experts say the message would be loud and clear.
SHIBLEY TELHAMI, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: If, in fact, Syria is hosting the groups that are operating in Iraq, is it a problem for U.S. forces. And the U.S. is going to make an issue of it. And the Syrians are going to have to expect that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the bill passed with massive support in the House, 398-4. It looks like it will easily pass in the Senate. It has 77 co-sponsors, which certainly suggests overwhelming support -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim.
Well, one of Asia's longest-serving leaders, the prime minister of Malaysia, today launched an attack against Jews and Israel. He said Jews rule the world by proxy and they make other people fight and die for them. At the same time, he called upon Islam to consider new ways.
Maria Ressa reports from Malaysia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA RESSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Prayer opening a summit of 57 nations with a common tradition and religion, Islam. Formed in 1969 to support the Palestinians, the Middle East continues to dominate the OIC, The Organization of Islamic Conference.
MAHATHIR MOHAMAD, MALAYSIAN PRIME MINISTER: Today, the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them. RESSA (on camera): In a mixture of religion and power politics, Prime Minister Mahathir recapped centuries of Muslim history in a provocative and combative speech. Yet, it was also a call for reflection and self-criticism, asking Arab and Muslim states to step back from anger and violence.
MAHATHIR: Is there no other way then to ask our young people to blow themselves up and kill people and invite the massacre of more of our own people?
RESSA (voice-over): His solution is for the Muslim world to unite to consolidate its strengths and gather the political will to act rationally for their interests.
Maria Ressa, CNN, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today praised the outstanding military record of an Army general who said radical Islamists hate America because it's a Christian nation. Secretary Rumsfeld declined to criticize Lieutenant General William Boykin, deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence and war fighting support.
NBC News reported, the general has told Christian gatherings that the battle with radical Islamists is a fight with Satan. General Boykin also said radical Islamist terrorists do not represent the Muslim faith.
Secretary Rumsfeld today also criticized a military newspaper poll suggesting soldiers in Iraq suffer low morale. He said the survey in the "Stars and Stripes" newspaper was what he termed informal and unscientific.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as the U.S. military's preparing to possibly alert four more National Guard units go to Iraq, that informal survey that you talked about does show that morale is lagging a bit.
The survey involved a questionnaire that was submitted to about 1,900 troops back in August. It found that only 16 percent said that morale was high or very high, while nearly half, 49 percent, said morale was low or very low. The Pentagon acknowledges that, even though this survey is unscientific and that it was done before troops got breaks for rest and relaxation, it does reflect the very tough conditions in Iraq, which is still a war zone.
And top officials here also admit that, even when they do visit troops and talk to them about morale, they don't always get the real story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: I also worry, as a four-star, somebody's always -- they're bringing us all the happy folks. And I want to see the folks that have complaints. And sometimes, they won't let them near me. So we know that phenomena exists out there. And that's why we have our tentacles out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Perhaps even more worrisome is that an equal percentage, 49 percent, again indicated that they were either unlikely or very unlikely to reenlist when their time was up, while only 31 percent said they were very likely or likely to stay in. Still, the Pentagon insists that, except for a slight slip in retention in the National Guard, recruiting is not suffering.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Overall, the indicators remain good. On the other hand, the effects of a stress on the force are unlikely to be felt immediately. They're much more likely to be felt down the road.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, one way to boost morale would be to bring troops home and not replace them. And the Pentagon indicated today that it wants to do just that. The Pentagon's comptroller, Dov Zakheim, testifying on Capitol Hill, said that the Pentagon plans by next year, by the end of the next fiscal year, to reduce the number of troops in Iraq to about 113,000, down from 147,000 -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, the defense of General Boykin, what is the attitude there at the Pentagon? Is this the end of that?
MCINTYRE: Well, the attitude here is that they don't think there's much to it. The chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Richard Myers, said that members of the military in uniform can make religious statements when they're at religious events.
He said, at first blush, it didn't seem there was much to it. The question is whether General Boykin went beyond what was called for and suggested something that was in contradiction to the U.S. official policy, which is that this is not a war against Islam, but a war against the enemies of the United States. But it doesn't appear that he's in for any sort of punitive action or anything.
But we are expecting that he will release some kind of statement either tonight or tomorrow.
DOBBS: The general made it pretty clear that he was -- that radical Islamists, in his judgment, do not in any way represent Islam. That is not satisfactory to some of the people there?
MCINTYRE: Well, I think they were looking at some of the other statements that indicated -- like, for instance, when he apparently made a reference to a Somali warlord, that his God was bigger than their God or something, it seemed to be pitting one religion against another.
Again, people are allowed to have religious beliefs that are exclusive to their religion. And it's really a matter of judgment. At this point, there's no indication the Pentagon's even going to review this case.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent, thank you.
President Bush today flew to Asia for a visit that will take him to six countries over six days. At the top of the president's agenda, the war against terror and radical Islamists. The president's tour will end with a visit to Australia, one of this country's closest allies. Australia sent combat troops to both Afghanistan and Iraq.
In the Middle East today, Palestinian police arrested seven, after the terrorist bomb attack that killed three Americans in Gaza yesterday. Police said they are still searching for two other suspects. A team of FBI agents has arrived in the area to help with that investigation. Authorities say the attack was carried out by a breakaway faction of radical Islamists.
Coming up next, our special report, "A Crowded Nation" -- tonight, the effect of a growing population on the quality and quantity of this country's food. The food supply is in danger. Peter Viles reports.
And "Exporting America," exporting jobs at a staggering rate, in fact. Tonight, you will be shocked to hear who's now giving those high-value jobs away. You guessed it. It's got something to do with the government.
And a $87 billion battle on the floor of both Houses of Congress -- Senator Tom Harkin joins us. He says he isn't signing a blank check for Iraq. He's our guest.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, in our special report "A Crowded Nation," a national crisis looms, caused in part by a rapidly growing population. The problem is the food supply. Because of our population growth and other factors, including far too much commercial fishing, to the overdevelopment of our farmland, this nation is clearly headed for trouble.
Peter Viles is here know now and has the report -- Pete.
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, we grow up in this country somehow believing we have this inexhaustible supply of farmland and of food. But that's simply not the case. The truth is, current policies and practices are unsustainable.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) VILES (voice-over): For seafood chef Rick Moonen, money is no object. But for years, he has been boycotting certain popular fish, from Atlantic swordfish to Chilean sea bass, in a crusade against aggressive fishing techniques that threat to wipe out entire stocks.
RICK MOONEN, CHEF: If we sit around and wait for the government to do something about it, we're going to be eating canned tofu, flavored with tuna or something, because there won't be any left. Seriously, we're going to be loving fish to death. It's going to be gone.
VILES: Commercial fishing is now so ruthlessly effective that 86 different stocks monitored by the federal government are so depleted, so threatened, the government classifies them as overfished, including haddock, cod, Atlantic sea scallops, and bluefish. Researches believe the ocean looked like this 40 years ago, and now this, after too much fishing. That excessive fishing and pollution have created giant dead zones in the ocean.
RANDY OLSON, MARINE BIOLOGIST: One of the biggest of which is in the Gulf of Mexico that is the result of the waste coming out of the Mississippi River that has caused a region, they say, that's larger than the size of the state of New Jersey in which there's little more than jellyfish and bacteria there and none of the original marine life.
VILES: Still, this is a nation that takes fresh seafood for granted and fresh meats and produce, a land of plenty on a collision course with crisis, because the nation's main source of food, its oceans of farmland, is always at risk.
It takes an acre, slightly more of cropland, to feed one person per year. But from 1982 to 2001, cropland available to feed Americans declined, from 420 million acres to 370 million, while the nation's population rose by 60 million. That means the point at which America can no longer feed its population is fast approaching.
RALPH GROSSI, AMERICAN FARMLAND TRUST: We have been losing about 1.2 Million acres of farmland each year. And much of this is the very best, most productive land near our metropolitan areas, because our ancestors were pretty bright people. They settled where the best farmland was.
VILES: Farmland has been disappearing most rapidly on the far edges of sprawling cities, in Texas, Ohio, Georgia, North Carolina, and Illinois.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: The coming crisis in food in this country has huge ramifications. It threatens $50 billion a year in U.S. agricultural exports. And that means, Lou, that it also threatens the people who receive those exports, people all around the world who are fed by the American farmer.
DOBBS: Not only is it a crisis for this country. But those countries who are taking over $50 billion of our foodstuffs now, their populations are also rising dramatically.
VILES: In some cases, even more rapidly.
DOBBS: Pete, thank you very much -- Peter Viles.
Tomorrow here on our special report "A Crowded Nation," we look at whether the United States has enough land to support the needs of our fast-growing population. That's tomorrow night. Please join us.
We have been reporting here for months about American businesses exporting jobs overseas, those jobs from manufacturing, technology, high-value jobs. And just when you thought American business couldn't get any more shortsighted, here comes the state government of Indiana.
Taking a look now at this Web page behind me, if you can see it, it is the state's Department of Workforce Development home page. And it promises, rather clearly, Indiana citizens who are looking for jobs and careers in training a solution in today's global economy. So what has the Department of Workforce Development done?
Well, it's just awarded a four-year, $15 million contract to a company to update its computers. Here's the twist: That company that it's contracted with is based in India. The computers, of course, will be used to help the good citizens of Indiana find work. There's more. The state of Indiana hired a Bombay firm, Tata, for that project, which beat out two American companies, Deloitte and Accenture.
Well, actually, Accenture doesn't exactly qualify as an American firm since it avoids paying U.S. taxes through incorporation in Bermuda. One more development: The majority of Indiana's 65 newest workers come from India on L-1 visas. The commissioner of department defended his decision, saying, the contract will save Indiana taxpayers millions of dollars. We assume he will have fun telling that to the 160,000 unemployed Hoosiers.
Incidentally, Indiana said it was impressed with Tata's experience. It turns out New Mexico hired Tata two years ago to do similar work. We asked, by the way, Governor Joseph Kernan to join us to explain the rationale for the decision, but the governor was unable to join us tonight. Perhaps another time.
Coming up next: the rising cot of prescription drugs, American families forced to take drastic and potentially dangerous measures to meet their medical needs, at the same time, raising the question, why are we paying more for pharmaceuticals than citizens of other countries? Louise Schiavone will report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: This week, the state of Illinois launched an online petition asking the Food and Drug Administration to allow its citizens to buy cheaper prescription drugs from Canada. The effort comes as more and more Americans are crossing the northern boarder to buy their medications at significant discounts. However, the FDA says it may not be safe.
Louise Schiavone has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The mayor of Springfield, Massachusetts, is seeing big savings from using Canadian online pharmacy CanaRx to provide drugs for his municipal health plan.
MICHAEL ALBANO, MAYOR OF SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS: We're looking at anywhere from $4 million to $9 million on an annual basis in Springfield, Massachusetts, a pretty good chunk of money that can be redirected into vital public services such as police, fire, public education.
SCHIAVONE: Mayor Albano himself buys insulin for his teenage son from Canada at an annual savings of $250. The idea is spreading. Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, and Minnesota are considering similar measures. The price differentials are compelling.
For example, 90 Coumadin pills, the blood thinner, cost about $90 in the U.S., $50 in Canada; 60 anti-cancer tamoxifen pills roughly $52 in the U.S., $38 in Canada, 30 anti-inflammatory Vioxx pills $78 in the U.S., $37 in Canada.
Why the big difference in prices? Like European nations, the Canadians maintain aggressive price controls, forcing prices down to what U.S. and drug company officials argue are artificially low levels.
TOM MILLER, CATO INSTITUTE: They are free-riding on our research and development. Now, to some extent, we benefit from that, because the major pharmaceutical employment and growth in the entire industry is moving to the United States.
SCHIAVONE: And federal regulators warn that Americans who buy so-called Canadian drugs via the Internet may not be getting what they ordered.
WILLIAM HUBBARD, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: For instance, we had one Web site in which the gentleman ordered a product for his prostate enlargement. And the Canadian pharmacy he ordered from sent him a drug that was from India, a counterfeit drug from India.
SCHIAVONE: And officials warn that, as Americans continue to buy Canadian drugs, there will be further opportunities for drug counterfeiters.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Lou, this is one of those problems that seems to spring from the nature of the Internet. Its global reach and anonymity make the World Wide Web a risky place to buy something as crucial to your health as prescription drugs -- Lou.
DOBBS: But whether on the Internet, Louise, or whether crossing the boarder to make the purchase, those Canadian pharmaceuticals are cheaper than in this country. Is there any likelihood we're going to see that difference in price disappear?
SCHIAVONE: Well, one of the concerns of the Canadian pharmaceutical industry is that, as more and more Americans bring pressure to bear on the Canadian market, there's going to be a rise in prices in Canada.
But the Canadian drug market, there are 25 million people in Canada. And there are appreciably more in the United States. And so far, the drug industry believes that the pressure that's brought to bear in Canada is not going to be anything compared to that in the United States.
DOBBS: No volume discount for Americans, huh?
SCHIAVONE: That's right.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Louise Schiavone.
Coming up next: Pope John Paul II celebrates 25 years as pontiff. Alessio Vinci will report from the Vatican. And Father Thomas Reese joins me here in New York on the future of the Catholic Church.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Leader of the Anglican Church today issued a scathing statement condemning the American Episcopal Church for approving its first openly gay bishop. In an unprecedented summit, the Anglican leaders gathered for two days of secretive talks on the divisions in the church. Anglican leaders say homosexuality violates scripture. And they've called upon the archbishop of Canterbury to investigate and possibly punish the Episcopal Church.
In the Catholic Church, hundreds of sex abuse victims are close to a $85 million settlement with the Boston Archdiocese tonight. The church and an attorney who represents 120 of the plaintiffs said they're optimistic they will reach the required 80 percent approval in order to go ahead with that settlement. That payout will be the largest ever in a civil case against a Catholic diocese. The sex scandal erupted after church documents revealed officials had moved abusive priests from parish to parish, even after their crimes were discovered.
In Vatican City tonight, hundreds of thousands of pilgrims gathering to celebrate Pope John II's 25th anniversary as leader of the Roman Catholic Church. The pope assured the throngs outside Saint Peter's Basilica that he will not resign, despite his declining health.
Alessio Vinci joins us now from Vatican City with the story -- Alessio.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello to, Lou.
The 25th anniversary that will be certainly remembered for a pope who was weak and frail. John Paul II, on this 25th anniversary, was wheeled into Saint Peter's Square on a platform, on a moving platform pushed by aides. The pope, during his homily, recalled this day October 16, 1978, 25 years ago, telling the flock, "How could I not tremble?" saying that he was obviously very moved for being chosen the 264th pontiff, adding that he was very happy to share this with the people in this square.
But he also asked for help from the same people in the square to pray for him, to give him enough strength to continue in this ministry. The pope, who spoke with a very frail voice, did not manage to finish the homily in its entirety, only read the first three graphs and then allowed one of his trusted aides to finish up the speech for him, nevertheless, mustering enough strength to pick up the celebration of the mass until the end, where the pope thanked in eight different languages the pilgrims, the priests, the archbishops, and the cardinals, and the dignitaries who have flocked to St. Peter's Square on this very special day.
And in the crowd, some people in tears, obviously moved, some of them perhaps because they believe this was perhaps the last chance to see the pope -- back to you, Lou.
DOBBS: Alessio, thank you very much -- Alessio Vinci from the Vatican.
Joining us now for more on Pope John Paul II's 25 year as pontiff and the many challenges that face the Catholic Church in this country in particular is father Thomas Reese. He is the editor in chief of "America: National Catholic" magazine.
And it's good to have you with us.
FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "AMERICA: NATIONAL CATHOLIC WEEKLY": Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: This is, I assume, a very bittersweet time for Catholics, the pope in failing health, 25 years of his reign as the leader of the church. What will this pope be best known for, for those 25 years?
REESE: Oh, I think he's going to go down in history for a number of things, certainly for his role in the fall of communism, his support for solidarity, the Polish freedom movement.
He started the avalanche that wiped out communism in Europe and through the Soviet Union. I think he'll be remembered also for being the pope that began the improvement in relations between Catholics and Jews. Children, Catholic and Jewish children, centuries from now will look back at this period and see it as the time when Catholics and Jews began to treat one another as brothers and sisters again. I mean, this is of millennial importance.
DOBBS: The biggest challenges that the pope, this pope, the church, has failed to meet, in your judgment? REESE: Well, I think there's a lot of challenges that we have. Certainly, in developed countries, there's a growing alienation among women against the church's hierarchy. In developing countries, we still have concern about poor people who are hungry and jobless, that are in need of help. So the pope's message has been one of justice, of peace. And that message is going to continue to need to be preached.
DOBBS: What is your sense of how the church will deal with a number of critical issues? Amongst them, we have a population growth rate that is exploding worldwide, in this country as well. We have AIDS reaching across Africa. We have a church that is not recommending the use of condoms in Africa, where it is desperately needed as a way for protection against disease, as well, as one would argue, for population control.
How do you think the church will grapple with those issues, the next pope will grapple with those issues?
REESE: Well, I wouldn't expect any major changes in the church's teachings on those issues in the future. I mean, John Paul II has appointed all but five of the 135 cardinals that will be the potential electors of his successor. And he's done exactly what you or I would do in choosing cardinals. He's basically picked people who support his views on church teaching and church doctrine.
DOBBS: All but five of 135? A highly effective a pope, as well as politician.
REESE: Well, when you're around for 25 years, you outlive all of the cardinals.
DOBBS: He's also appointed more saints?
(CROSSTALK)
REESE: He's canonized -- he's broken all the records. He's visited more countries. He's canonized more saints. He's been seen by more people probably than any other person who's ever lived. The millions of people who come out to hear him teach, hear him preach, to pray with him have been huge.
DOBBS: His successor, this pope obviously in failing health, various and sometimes conflicting, but predominantly suggestions that this pope is nearing the end of his reign. Will there be an American pope?
REESE: I don't think so. I think that's the one category that I don't think has a chance of being elected.
The problem is that, if an American was elected, most of the people in the Third World would think that either Wall Street bought the election or the CIA fixed the election. And the Catholic Church doesn't that need that kind of baggage that an American would bring to the papacy.
Through the centuries, the church has always kept the papacy out of the hands of the superpower, whether...
DOBBS: Well, speaking as an American, a non-Catholic, I'm hurt that you would consider us baggage in this case.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: But we understand. Do you think it will be Italian?
REESE: I think they will always look at the Italian candidates, all other things being equal. But all other things are never equal. I think he broke the precedent. Now it's wide open to anybody.
DOBBS: Will this be an instance of a church not being afraid to be parochial?
REESE: Oh, absolutely. I think there's a good chance of a cardinal from the Third World being elected pope.
DOBBS: Father Thomas Reese, we thank you for being here. I hope you will join us often. Thank you.
REESE: Thank you.
DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on the role of church leaders: "I have always considered a clergyman as the father of a larger family than he is able to maintain" -- that from British writer Samuel Johnson.
Coming up next: Congress battles over the president's request for billions of dollars for Iraq. Jonathan Karl reports from Capitol Hill. Senator Tom Harkin joins us to tell us why he says, no blank check for Iraq.
And "Grange On Point" tonight. The Pentagon says it needs foreign troops in Iraq, but doesn't want any more American troops. At the same time, the Pentagon says it doesn't want to raise the number of people in the military, even though we are extending the mission worldwide and exhausting our National Guardsmen and reserves. General David Grange on point and next.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On Capitol Hill tonight, the administration's $20 billion plan to rebuild Iraq is meeting bipartisan resistance, a group of senators from both sides of the aisle proposing a key change to the plan. And that could lead to a major showdown.
Jonathan Karl is on Capitol Hill and has the very latest for us -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the White House has been insisting, and insisting forcefully, that that money for Iraq must not be a loan, that it must be a grant given directly to Iraq, not to be paid back. He is facing some opposition up here on Capitol Hill in the United States Senate, which is right now debating this issue, from Republicans. There are at least six, and possibly as many as 10, Republicans that are poised to defy the president tonight on an issue that has been a top White House priority. Right now, the vote is simply too close to call. Nobody knows how this will go down, but it will go down some time tonight.
And right now, it looks as though the president may be on the verge of a major defeat on this question, although, on the overall question about whether or not he will get the $20 billion for reconstruction and the $67 billion for the troops in Iraq, that looks like he will ultimately get that by tomorrow. But the big question is, will the reconstruction money be a loan or will it be an outright grant?
Now, while this is going on, you have several prominent Democrats who are saying that they will vote against the entire $87 billion package, whether or not it is a loan or a grant. People like Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi in the House is saying that she will vote against it. Prominent Democrats in the Senate, like Tom Harkin, who you will be talking to, Ted Kennedy, Democratic presidential candidates, like John Kerry and John Edwards, are all saying that they will vote no on this entire package, regardless of whether or not it's loans or it is grants.
That has Tom DeLay, the Republican leader over in the House, saying that Democrats are abandoning the troops in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: That old debating tactic of, "I support the troops, but," it just isn't going to cut it this time. If you support the war and you support the troops, you must vote for this bill. The war that we're fighting can't be won without a safe and secure Iraq. It cannot be won without the reconstruction funding in this bill. It's just that simple.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: A short while ago, I spoke with Senator Ted Kennedy and asked him about that, the Republican charges that he is abandoning the troops. This is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: The best way to protect our troop is to have a changed and altered policy. That's what my vote is about. It's a vote for the troops. It says to the administration, go back to the drawing boards. Bring in other troops from other nations around the world. Gain the support of the international community to offset the burden that are on American taxpayers, and develop a strategy that can make sure that American troops can be brought home with honor.
(END VIDEO CLIP) KARL: The vote on that critical question of loans vs. grant will happen tonight. The final vote on this is likely not to happen until tomorrow, though, Lou.
DOBBS: All right, Jonathan Karl, thank you very much.
Well, my guest says the White House is, in effect, asking for a blank check to rebuild Iraq. And Senator Tom Harkin says he is not ready to approve such a thing. He's senior Democrat on the Senate Appropriations Committee. And he joins us tonight from Capitol Hill.
Senator, good to have you with us.
SEN. TOM HARKIN (D), IOWA: Hi, Lou.
DOBBS: What do you say to the argument, as advanced by Congressman DeLay, that, if you voted for the war, as you did, you have to back up the president and support the troops with this money?
HARKIN: Well, I have no problem in backing the president. It just depends on whether we give him a blank check or whether we exercise our constitutional responsibility to keep our fingers on the purse strings and to make this administration accountable for the money that it does spend. Really, what the administration really is saying, Lou: Give us the money and trust me.
Well, a year ago, I did. I voted for the Iraqi resolution a year ago, because I opted to trust the president, because he said: Trust me. We got the evidence that Saddam Hussein is in cahoots with al Qaeda. Not true. He said: Trust me that they've got weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological weapons, and the means to deliver them. Again, not true. He also said: Trust me that we won't have the taxpayers of America reconstructing Iraq, because they have all that oil and they can reconstruct themselves. Again, not true.
DOBBS: So, with that analysis -- and I think, perhaps in fairness, I should assert here that we can say that, at least it goes to weapons of mass destruction, it's been six months, but we can say not yet, perhaps in there at least, to qualify that issue -- this president wants to make this a gift. Are you willing to take -- to provide the money as a gift or would you be amongst those who prefers that this money be a loan, the $20 billion for the reconstruction of Iraq?
HARKIN: Well, I thought the best approach was Senator Dorgan, when he said, we set up a reconstruction finance authority in Iraq, and they would sell securities in future oil production and raise money on the world market, and use that money to rebuild Iraq and then pay back by securitizing the oil production in the future.
But we lost that amendment. We tried today -- what Senator Byrd, Senator Kennedy and I and others tried today again to say, well, listen, we'll give you $5 billion. And then in -- by April, if you want any more money, Mr. President, you've got to come back to Congress and show us that you've got a U.N. resolution that will internationalize the military operations under our command, that will internationalize the reconstruction and get other countries involved in rebuilding Iraq. Then come back and let us vote again to see whether or not we should give you the rest of the money.
The World Bank, Lou, said that there's no way that Iraq can spend more than $5 billion in the whole next year, yet the administration's asking us give them $21 billion to spend. And so that's why -- and, again, the indications are more and more that this money is really just being thrown out there with no accountability.
DOBBS: Senator, today's vote in the United Nations, a remarkable success, I'm sure you agree, for this administration. Does that go a long ways toward satisfying your, at least in stages, early concerns about the multinational aspect of the reconstruction of Iraq?
HARKIN: Well, let's keep in mind that the vote in the U.N., again, while a step in the right direction, Kofi Annan has said that they're not going to go back in again until things are more secure in Iraq. And the best way to get that secure is to get international forces in there.
And yet it doesn't seem like this administration is willing to take that step. So I hope that this sort of vote in the U.N. is not seen as some kind of a massive step forward, that the U.N. is now going to send the blue helmets in to do the work. That's simply not going to happen.
DOBBS: Yes, I think we should note, though, that Kofi Annan said he had serious reservations about the U.S. resolution, but it was passed unanimously.
Senator Tom Harkin, as always, good talking with you. Thank you, sir.
HARKIN: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Tonight's quote is from Capitol Hill, where members of Congress talked about the reconstruction of Iraq. And we thought two of them worth your time.
The first: "Democrats are united in criticism of the president. He had no postwar Iraq plan. As you know, part of the tens of billions of dollars that he is asking for today is to pull his chestnuts out of the fire. This is a bailout for a failed Bush postwar policy" -- that, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi.
And from a fellow Democrat on why this administration must stop what he says are oil contract abuses in Iraq: "Millions of Americans want to help Iraqis, but they don't want to be fleeced" -- Congressman Henry Waxman.
Turning now to our poll on U.S. policy on Iraq, the question: Now that the United States has the support of the United Nations, do you have greater confidence in the U.S. Iraq policy, yes, no or maybe? Please vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you coming right up. Tonight in "Grange on Point," hundreds of thousands of American troops are deployed in 120 countries around the world. But the United States military today has fewer troops than it did before Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, a time when the population of this country was half what it is today.
General David Grange joins us now from Chicago.
General, good to have you with us.
RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: General, let's start with the issue of troops. The Pentagon says it wants more troops in Iraq, Turkish troops in this instance, and others, wherever they can get them, but doesn't want other Americans in there and doesn't want an overall increase in the level of force, more Americans in uniform. Does this make any sense?
GRANGE: Well, I think the idea of bringing the Turkish troops is, let's say anywhere from 6,000 to 10,000, is a good idea, though you have to be very savvy in what area in Iraq you put the Turkish troops. But any International troops that are added to the coalition forces add an international flavor to the operation, very similar to what we did in Bosnia in that.
DOBBS: Sure.
GRANGE: And it helps with the acceptance of the transition to a secure democratic governing environment.
There are no -- there are not many U.S. troops available to replace those that are already there.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Well, there are 37,000 in Korea. They're 112,000 in Europe. We're in 120 countries around the country, Dave, as you well know, better than me. Those troops are available. The Pentagon wants to be, under Secretary Rumsfeld, mean, light, agile and innovative. Why not move those troops around?
GRANGE: Well, I think some are going to be moved. I think you'll see, in the next several years, a realignment of troop disposition around the world, on the Korean Peninsula, in Europe in particular.
In fact, if you look at Europe right now, Germany, half the forces that are there are already in Iraq or in Afghanistan. And so they're already deployed. So they are going to have to realign.
DOBBS: Yet we're watching National Guardsman -- the poll that was reported in "Stars and Stripes," we have seen the secretary of defense respond to it. We have seen General Myers respond to it. The fact is, we have low morale. It's not because of the media. It's because of the mission and the time that they've been there. Wouldn't you agree? Is the primary issue...
(CROSSTALK)
HARKIN: Yes.
The morale issue is about uncertainty, uncertainty on time. The morale is about understanding the mission. The morale is about constant deployments.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, because I just found this extraordinary to hear a four-star general say, when he was talking to reporters today, General Myers -- he says: I want to see the folks that have complaints and sometimes they won't let them near me.
Now, you're the general. And I would make a lousy general. But if I were the general, I assure you, I would get to where I wanted to be. What in the world? A general doesn't get to do what he wants?
GRANGE: Well, actually, a lot of generals don't get to do what they want. And it is very usual that, a lot of times, the higher- ranking personnel do not get to see who they want, because they're whisked around so quickly.
Some of it is not really hiding certain soldiers, troops from the higher-ranking officer. It's just the time that they actually allocate to the visit. But, again, if you're not proud of any of your troops -- and you're going to have some characters that are not as good as others -- then maybe you shouldn't be in command of them.
DOBBS: General Dave Grange, as always, it's great to see you. Thank you. And we appreciate it.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: General David Grange.
Coming up next, we'll share some of your thoughts on illegal aliens and the exporting of high-value American jobs, and the Chinese space program, including a very clever idea from one of our viewers about how the American space program could perhaps save a few billion American tax dollars.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. The question: Now that the United States has the support of the United Nations, do you have more confidence in the U.S. Iraq policy? Thirteen percent of you said yes; 76 percent said no; 11 percent said maybe. Now, that's a tough 76 percent.
On Wall Street, a reasonably tough day. The major averages finished little changed, the Dow down 11, the Nasdaq up 11, the S&P up 3.
Christine Romans with the market -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Specialists and the New York Stock Exchange. The New York Stock Exchange, Lou, says that its specialists misbehaved. They got in the way of their customer orders for their own profit. And they will be disciplined.
It's the result of a months-long investigation and comes days after Fidelity and others questioned the integrity of the specialist system. Interim NYSE Chairman John Reed said specialists misbehaved, yet he defended the way the Big Board trades stocks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN REED, INTERIM NYSE CHAIRMAN: If there ever were to come to be a time when the specialist system didn't serve us well, we would have to acknowledge that. At this point, we don't believe we're there. And we think examination would support our position.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: How many firms were fined?
ROMANS: It looks like they're going to try to fine about five of them.
DOBBS: And there are a total of?
(LAUGHTER)
ROMANS: Five big specialist firms out of the New York Stock Exchange.
Now, critics say, Lou, that electronic trade would be better for investors, keeping greedy hands out of the middle of the action. Meanwhile, former Fred Alger management executive James Connelly has pleaded guilty to evidence tampering in the probe of illegal mutual fund trading. E-mails show he encouraged employees to destroy e-mail and other documents. He faces four years in prison. He's agreed to $400,000 fine with the SEC.
And, tonight, Lou, the subpoenas still flying, Massachusetts regulators also probing in on mutual funds, all the big companies.
DOBBS: OK, a fun day on Wall Street.
ROMANS: It sure was.
DOBBS: Christine, thanks -- Christine Romans.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts.
From Gig Harbor, Washington: "Lou, your concern with the mass transfer of American jobs to overseas locations is the No. 1 problem facing middle-class Americans. Even my home mortgage is now processed in India. Any politician that addresses this problem will have my vote. Don't let them sweep this under the rug any longer" -- that from Will Ellwanger.
From Gretna, Louisiana: "We were known as the melting other of the world. And for a long time, the mixture was good and cultures were merged nicely. Now the melting pot is running over and the mixture is beginning to sour. So it's time for an immigration moratorium" -- that from Remus Hebert.
And from Crestview, Florida: "Illegal aliens provide cheap labor, or do they? They don't pay income tax, yet our social services often must support their needs, which puts a strain on those services for which we pay with our taxes" -- Sandy Brendel.
From Canoga Park, California: "Thank you for dealing with illegal immigration. What is it about the word illegal that people don't understand? Our medical and welfare sources are breaking our backs. It's got to stop. Thanks for you reporting what no politician wants to talk about" -- that from Ray Wiles.
From Palo Alto, California: "Your story about the new space race with China got to me thinking about how we could save billions of U.S. tax dollars. Since the policy of this nation is to outsource everything, why don't we just outsource NASA and the space program to China or Russia? Our rockets would then say, "Made in China," as almost everything else already does."
Interesting idea, Paul, but we're trying to suggest maybe we rethink this outsourcing thing, but an interesting idea, nonetheless.
We love hearing from you. E-mail us at LouDobbs@CNN.com.
That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us.
Tomorrow, in our special report "A Crowded Nation," we look at whether we have enough land to support this booming population.
For all of us here, good night from New York.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Crisis Looming?; Catholic Church in the 21st Century>
