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American Morning

John Muhammad Case

Aired October 23, 2003 - 09:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: CNN legal analyst Jeff Toobin joining us now with his take on the developments, and there's a lot to talk about. Every day, it seems there's lots to talk about in this case.
Let's start with a decision to no longer represent himself. John Allen Muhammad made that decision yesterday, claimed a toothache was part of the problem there. Give me your read into this here. And how much damage or success did he have on his own behalf over the couple of days that he did represent himself?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it is probably more damage than good that he did himself. When you're a defense attorney in a death penalty case, you have a story, a narrative that you want to tell the jury about who this defendant is. When have you the defendant himself freelancing out there, you have no control over it. I think he could have done damage to that.

Also, he told the jurors very explicitly, looked them in the eye and said, I did not do that. They very well may feel lied to. That can't help him.

O'BRIEN: At the same time, some folks say, yes, but you've heard from him, it is harder to put someone to death when they've been walking around the courtroom., when you feel that you've made some kind of connection, even if you believe in your heart the person is a monster, you've made a connection to a live human being, as opposed to someone who sits next to his attorney, you never really see him, you never really hear from him.

TOOBIN: Certainly possibly. I can't claim to know what's going on in the jurors' minds. Another very interesting thing that happened yesterday, though, Malvo was in court. Malvo didn't say anything, but he was identified by a couple witnesses in front of the jury as a participant in some of those other attacks. The contrast between the two of them, Malvo, he was still a teenager when this all happened. Malvo, a man in his 40s. I think part of the defense here, in Muhammad's defense, is to blame Malvo for the shootings. It is going to be a lot harder when the jury has seen with its own eyes what a young kid this was and how Malvo's a middle-aged man.

O'BRIEN: Muhammad's a middle aged man.

TOOBIN: I'm sorry, Muhammad is a middle-aged man, right.

O'BRIEN: The judge said he felt Muhammad represented himself competently. Do you think that's an accurate assessment for a guy who knows nothing about the law and he was trying to sort of appease him.

TOOBIN: Having read the transcript, I think what he was trying to do was talk him out of being his own lawyer, and saying, you know, you did fine so far, but let's really get out of this, leave it to the people who know what they're doing. So I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that the judge said he did a good job.

Clearly, it wasn't a Colin Ferguson situation, where the guy was just an obvious psychotic in front of the jury. Muhammad was not that. But I think he's far better off turning it over to the lawyers.

O'BRIEN: Very emotional day in court, where you saw people break down on the stand when they were confronted. Really, I think, very hard to watch. Why do you think the prosecution's taking this tact, to go right for the heart of emotion immediately right from the get- go.

TOOBIN: Prosecutors sometimes say the like to try their cases in a horseshoe.

O'BRIEN: I never heard that, Jeff.

TOOBIN: You put the strongest material at the beginning of the case, the boring stuff in the middle and the strongest stuff at the end. The theory is, people remember what they hear first and remember what they hear last. This is an emotional case. It would be malpractice as a prosecutor not to bring home to the jury that these were people killed or shot in cold blood for no reason. And the vividness of that case is coming through. And that's the smart way to start, with this dramatic evidence.

O'BRIEN: I'm sure we're going to see more of it as the days go on, because there's a lot to get to.

TOOBIN: You know, there are a lot of shootings, a lot of drama.

O'BRIEN: Thanks, Jeff, always. Appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired October 23, 2003 - 09:06   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: CNN legal analyst Jeff Toobin joining us now with his take on the developments, and there's a lot to talk about. Every day, it seems there's lots to talk about in this case.
Let's start with a decision to no longer represent himself. John Allen Muhammad made that decision yesterday, claimed a toothache was part of the problem there. Give me your read into this here. And how much damage or success did he have on his own behalf over the couple of days that he did represent himself?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it is probably more damage than good that he did himself. When you're a defense attorney in a death penalty case, you have a story, a narrative that you want to tell the jury about who this defendant is. When have you the defendant himself freelancing out there, you have no control over it. I think he could have done damage to that.

Also, he told the jurors very explicitly, looked them in the eye and said, I did not do that. They very well may feel lied to. That can't help him.

O'BRIEN: At the same time, some folks say, yes, but you've heard from him, it is harder to put someone to death when they've been walking around the courtroom., when you feel that you've made some kind of connection, even if you believe in your heart the person is a monster, you've made a connection to a live human being, as opposed to someone who sits next to his attorney, you never really see him, you never really hear from him.

TOOBIN: Certainly possibly. I can't claim to know what's going on in the jurors' minds. Another very interesting thing that happened yesterday, though, Malvo was in court. Malvo didn't say anything, but he was identified by a couple witnesses in front of the jury as a participant in some of those other attacks. The contrast between the two of them, Malvo, he was still a teenager when this all happened. Malvo, a man in his 40s. I think part of the defense here, in Muhammad's defense, is to blame Malvo for the shootings. It is going to be a lot harder when the jury has seen with its own eyes what a young kid this was and how Malvo's a middle-aged man.

O'BRIEN: Muhammad's a middle aged man.

TOOBIN: I'm sorry, Muhammad is a middle-aged man, right.

O'BRIEN: The judge said he felt Muhammad represented himself competently. Do you think that's an accurate assessment for a guy who knows nothing about the law and he was trying to sort of appease him.

TOOBIN: Having read the transcript, I think what he was trying to do was talk him out of being his own lawyer, and saying, you know, you did fine so far, but let's really get out of this, leave it to the people who know what they're doing. So I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that the judge said he did a good job.

Clearly, it wasn't a Colin Ferguson situation, where the guy was just an obvious psychotic in front of the jury. Muhammad was not that. But I think he's far better off turning it over to the lawyers.

O'BRIEN: Very emotional day in court, where you saw people break down on the stand when they were confronted. Really, I think, very hard to watch. Why do you think the prosecution's taking this tact, to go right for the heart of emotion immediately right from the get- go.

TOOBIN: Prosecutors sometimes say the like to try their cases in a horseshoe.

O'BRIEN: I never heard that, Jeff.

TOOBIN: You put the strongest material at the beginning of the case, the boring stuff in the middle and the strongest stuff at the end. The theory is, people remember what they hear first and remember what they hear last. This is an emotional case. It would be malpractice as a prosecutor not to bring home to the jury that these were people killed or shot in cold blood for no reason. And the vividness of that case is coming through. And that's the smart way to start, with this dramatic evidence.

O'BRIEN: I'm sure we're going to see more of it as the days go on, because there's a lot to get to.

TOOBIN: You know, there are a lot of shootings, a lot of drama.

O'BRIEN: Thanks, Jeff, always. Appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com