CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Peterson Hearing: Day 3
Aired October 31, 2003 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, GUEST HOST: Tonight, inside day three of the Scott Peterson preliminary hearing, heart-wrenching testimony from Laci's mother about the moment Scott Peterson told her Laci was missing. And then his father, Lee Peterson, takes the stand, saying he is still proud of his son. Plus, the Petersons' housekeeper gives details from inside the house.
Firsthand accounts of today's testimony from Ted Rowlands of KTVU and Laura Ingle of KFI radio, both in the courtroom all day long. Also, consulting with Scott Peterson's defense, renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht is with us. Plus high-profile defense attorney Chris Pixley of Atlanta; Judge Jeanine Ferris Pirro, the DA of Westchester County, New York; Psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig; and in Modesto, Gloria Allred, the attorney for Scott's other woman, Amber Frey. Also with us, Kelly Huston of the Stanislaus County Sheriff's Department with details on Scott Peterson's life behind bars.
It's all next, everybody, on LARRY KING LIVE.
Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, in for Larry King tonight as guest host, and I want to thank you for being with us. I'm not in my frequent role as guest and former prosecutor. I'll be moderating tonight.
I want to go right off the bat to Laura Ingle. She is out near the courthouse. Welcome, Laura. Give us the order of the witnesses today.
LAURA INGLE, KFI-AM, LA: We had the housekeeper, Scott and Laci's housekeeper, up first. Then we had Laci's sister, Amy Rocha, Laci's mom, Sharon Rocha, Lee Peterson, Scott's dad, and then, the first arriving detective to Scott and Laci's area, talking to the family once she was reported missing.
GRACE: Laura, we waited through two days of mitochondrial DNA evidence to hear from the lay witnesses. We've been waiting to find out the significance of the housekeeper. Explain.
INGLE: Well, she cleans Scott and Laci's home on December 23. Now, December 23 is the last day that Laci Peterson was ever heard from. The last person to ever talk to her was her mother, at 8:30 at night. And Laci's sister, Amy, saw Scott and Laci a few hours before that, when she cut Scott's hair at the salon where she works here in Modesto.
Now, the housekeeper had been at the house previously during the day and testified that she had gone through the house and done the vacuuming and done the dusting. But where it got interesting was hearing how she cleaned the house. Police reportedly got in the house and reportedly smelled some bleach. Now, she said that she cleaned the floors with water and touch of Pinesol in the front area of the house. She did use some bleach in the back of the house, in the bathrooms. But really, apparently, the stench of bleach was in the front part of the house when police detectives arrived, so I think that's where that was laid to foundation today.
GRACE: You know, Robi, I don't know if you're much of a housekeeper or not. You're a psychologist. But there's a definite difference between Pinesol and Chlorox bleach.
ROBI LUDWIG, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. And if you have a housekeeper, you know once your housekeeper comes, you're probably not inclined to do heavy cleaning, maybe light housekeeping. So that would suggest that perhaps something suspicious is going on.
GRACE: I don't know about that. I've got a funny feeling that Chris Pixley has another opinion. Chris?
CHRIS PIXLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I do, Nancy. You know, and we have yet to hear from any investigators who actually did enter the home and had an opinion that there was a sense of bleach. Again, the other thing that came out of the testimony today, on cross by Mark Geragos, is the fact that bleach was used by the housekeeper the day before Laci's disappearance. So if the next day an investigator did come in and smell bleach, there's an explanation for it. Again, we still have to hear that investigator, and we really should probably be talking about it after we see how he stands up or she stands up on cross.
GRACE: Well, what about the detective, Laura Ingle? Did the detective describe the house or the smell of bleach?
INGLE: He did not get to that, at least not when I was in the courtroom. I had to leave during his testimony. But he did talk about how he first arrived and how he had overheard Ron Grantski, Laci's stepfather, talking to Scott Peterson when he had asked him, you know, What were you doing today? Where did you go? That was more of where -- the testimony I heard of him talking about.
INGLE: And it was more about Scott saying that he went fishing and everybody saying, Why did you go fishing? I thought you were going to play golf. And he said, Well, it was too cold to play golf. Well, obviously...
GRACE: You know, Ted Rowlands...
INGLE: ... the Berkeley Marina's pretty cold, too.
GRACE: Yes. Ted Rowlands, let me go to you. You've been the case from the beginning, as well, with Laura Ingle. The weather there at this time of the year -- you and I have discussed this many times. Explain to me, how did that conversation get struck up between Ron Grantski -- that's Laci's stepfather -- and Scott Peterson.
TED ROWLANDS, KTVU-TV: Well, apparently, according to the detective who testified today, he said that he overheard, as Laura said, a conversation between Grantski and Scott Peterson, and it gives you the first indication that there was some suspicion right off the bat, seemingly, at least from Ron Grantski. You know, we've always sort of thought that the entire Rocha family, including Mr. Grantski, was completely behind Scott, but it seems as though, according to this detective, Grantski was questioning Scott a bit, saying, Well, it's a little bit early to be going -- or a little bit late to be going fishing at 9:30. So that's where this is going, it seems.
And you know, overall today, while there was no bombshell, you could really see a lot of strategy being laid out by the prosecution, and then a couple of things that the defense was able to unearth, as well -- specifically, the maid saying that when she got there, the blinds in the house were completely closed. And that became a bit of a back and forth between the prosecution and the defense. But by the end, boy, it sure seems as though this maid thinks those blinds were completely closed. That, you would think, would throw out that neighbor's claim that every day, as soon as Laci woke up, she popped up and opened the blinds.
JEANINE FERRIS PIRRO, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, WESTCHESTER COUNTY, NEW YORK: Well, you know, this whole thing about the blinds is very interesting because they're now saying that the housekeeper opens the blinds, so the defense thinks that they've scored a point. But the truth is, the housekeeper was only there four times, and she only came every two weeks. So what are we suggesting? Who else opened the blinds the other 361 days of the year? Laci's the one who opened the blinds. And the fact that that day the housekeeper did doesn't mean that the defense has scored any points. Maybe, you know, Laci asked her to do it.
But I think even more significant, Ted, is the fact that you have Scott Peterson saying that he went fishing because it was too cold to go golfing. That makes absolutely no sense. And then when he's asked what kind of fish he's fishing for, he says he doesn't know or he can't say, when any fisherman knows that you get the right kind of pole, the right kind of bait, depending upon the type of fish, the right kind of line. I mean, there's all kinds of thing that you prepare for when you're going fishing.
GRACE: What about it, Chris? Are you a fisherman, or do you just want to rely on what Geragos did on cross-exam?
PIXLEY: Well, I think Geragos did a nice job on cross-exam with every single witness today. Now, with respect to the fishing and not being able to immediately talk about what your priorities were that day, when you are now looking for your wife -- you know, everybody's attacked Scott Peterson for not showing enough affect, and we use all of these psychological terms, talk about the fact that the guy hasn't been emotional enough. And yet one of the things that Detective Evers (ph)... GRACE: Hey, Chris, we're talking about...
PIXLEY: ... said today, Nancy, was...
GRACE: ... fish bait! We're talking about fish bait here.
PIXLEY: Yes, we...
GRACE: Not emotions.
PIXLEY: Well, fine. But Scott Peterson's being questioned, Nancy, by the police, and then suddenly, they're asking him about what kind of fish he was going after that day. This guy's mind is on his wife, who's missing, and that is what Detective Evers said today. He said when he first saw Scott, he was in the park with Sharon Rocha, looking for Laci. He was frantic and upset. So whatever he had to say about the minutia of his day earlier on I don't think really matters a whole lot.
GRACE: Well, let me ask Ted Rowlands a question, speaking of his urgency, his concern -- yes, it may have wiped out his mind what he was fishing with, but am I correct? Was it in the testimony today, Ted Rowlands, that when he got home, saw his wife's vehicle, the pocketbook, the keys, the wallet, and so forth, he ordered or ate a pizza and took a shower and changed clothes before he called anyone?
ROWLANDS: I don't know that that was in the testimony today. I was out of the courtroom for a brief period of time. I didn't hear that in the record today. Maybe I'm wrong. But we've heard that before. What we did find out, what Sharon Rocha talked about, which she thought was glaring, was that when Scott Peterson called over to the Grantski house and asked them if Laci was over there, he right away offered up the fact that she was missing. And she said -- and we've heard that before -- that that stuck with her as being strange, especially in retrospect. And then she detailed it from there.
The other thing that -- the first -- for the first time, we did see some emotion in the courtroom. At one point, Jackie Peterson broke down. A lot of Laci's friends were crying through it when they talked about Laci herself. And actually, there was some camaraderie between lee and Scott. When Lee sat down to testify, he gave Scott a wink and told the court that he was proud to be Scott's father.
GRACE: You know, let me go back to you, Laura Ingle. Maybe you were in the courtroom when Ted was taking a break. I'm referring specifically to the testimony of Detective John Evers on the shower and the pizza portion of the testimony. Were you there for that?
INGLE: I was there for that, and he did bring that up. And he said, I asked Scott, you know, what did you do when you got home? And he said, Well, he said he was hungry, so he went and got a cold slice of pizza out of the fridge, and he did take a shower, you know, because he's been fishing. So he took a shower and he washed his clothes and then started making the calls. So that's where that timeline lays down. GRACE: And of course, Chris Pixley, when we look back on it, people are willing to jump on the bandwagon and paint everything with a nefarious stroke. The defense will have to guard against that, but how? As one circumstance seems to build up to the next, where will Geragos go?
PIXLEY: Well, I think one of the problems that the prosecution has, actually, Nancy, with all of these circumstances, is they've yet to tie them together and show a common theme. The building blocks of their story are that Laci was murdered in the home, that she then transported in this boat down to the Berkeley marina, launched and then dropped into the bay. And we're still getting just bits and piece of different nefarious facts.
What Mark Geragos will continue to do is pick away at those facts, but I think he's got to be sitting back, smiling to himself at the reality that the prosecution has yet to put it together. Now, we're not through the prelim yet, so we shouldn't assume that the prosecution won't make more sense of some of these facts. But right now, it's just a matter of poking holes in them, and I think he did that.
PIRRO: I don't think that that's the case at all. I think what you have here is a prosecution that's bringing out very unusual behavior on the part of the defendant, the guy who says he's going fishing on a day when it's too cold to play golf. He doesn't know what kind of fish he's fishing for. And Chris, you know, let's just say he's too upset, but the most, I think, damaging thing that happened today is the fact that Lee Peterson, Scott's father, takes the stand and says that he speaks to Scott between 12:00 and 2:00 on Christmas Eve day. Now, Scott says he arrives at the marina at 12:00 o'clock and fishes for two hours. If that is true, then Scott's father should have been talking to him while he was fishing, and Scott should have said, Nancy, I'm fishing now, or I just finished fishing, or I'm on my new boat. And it makes absolutely no sense...
PIXLEY: I think, though, that you've got...
PIRRO: ... that if they had that conversation...
PIXLEY: It makes no sense if your timeline is correct.
PIRRO: ... that he would not -- oh, my timeline is correct, according to the testimony...
GRACE: Hey, guys...
PIRRO: ... of the defendant's father.
GRACE: Guys, we've got to go to break. Everybody...
PIXLEY: That's not when his ticket checks in.
GRACE: Chris, hold on just one moment. We've got to go to break. We'll be right back, everyone. And when we come back, remember, the tug-of-war over the DNA evidence is not done yet. And joining us, the renowned forensic expert Dr. Cyril Wecht, who has consulted with the defense in this case, will be with us to give his insight. Stay with us.
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace, in for Larry King tonight, and I want to thank you for being with us.
Let's go now to Dr. Cyril Wecht. It's a face you know well. He's the coroner of Allegheny County, and he's one of the world's foremost pathologists, and he is consulting with the Scott Peterson defense team.
Doctor, I know you're under a gag order and you cannot comment on the specific facts of this case, but we all know that there is a heated battle going on that could sway the case one way or the other, and it's over mitochondrial DNA. We're not scientists. Give it to me in a nutshell. What is it?
DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, CONSULTING WITH DEFENSE: The classical, traditional DNA, Nancy, is material of a biological nature which requires cells with nuclei. Mitochondrial DNA came along much, much later and can be utilized in other body materials which do not have cellular material. So this could be hair from any part of the body, and it could be other kinds of cells that don't have nuclei. The exclusionary ratio is much, much less, infinitesimally less, because, as you know...
GRACE: Hold on! Hold on, Doctor! The exclusionary ratio. Are you saying, with regular DNA, you get a match of 1 in 300 million, and with mitochondrial, you get 1 in 125?
WECHT: Whatever, a couple hundred, something like that.
WECHT: So when you talk -- I've heard some of the regular DNA people talk about one in more billions of people than have ever populated the face of this earth. So when you take billions and billions, compared to a couple hundred, I think the word "infinitesimal" by comparison is appropriate. Well, in any event...
WECHT: I'm sorry. Go ahead, Nancy.
GRACE: Regarding this -- regarding this MT DNA, mitochondrial DNA, in this particular case, how do you weigh it, when it's compared to testimony like that from the maid, like that from Amy Rocha?
WECHT: Well, I...
GRACE: Where does it fit into a chain? WECHT: I cannot speak about this case. Let me make some observations, if I may. Obviously -- and I'm not telling you and your excellent attorney panel anything they don't know -- but there's no question, forensic scientific evidence is extremely important, and I would never denigrate it, whether I'm on the defense side or a prosecution side, to make a point. I think, frankly, in the optimal scenario...
WECHT: ... and the best of all worlds, forensic scientific evidence is a lot more important than conjectural and subjective observations and thing of an atypical behavioral nature. Did somebody really go to the bathroom when they say they did? Because it was a different time than they usually go. Did they really have lunch? When you get into something did somebody eat or not eat -- you know, some people eat when they're depressed and scared, and some people don't eat. Some people weep and yell and scream at funerals and throw themselves into the graves, and other people stand back stoically...
GRACE: I think I got it, Doctor.
WECHT: ... and say nothing.
GRACE: I think you're saying that this is hard evidence, and the rest is subjective.
WECHT: Well, yes. I'm not -- I'm not...
GRACE: Wait! Yes or no!
WECHT: I'm well aware, after 41 years in this business, that it is the non-scientific stuff and that sociological, philosophical, psychological kind of stuff that may sway a jury. I know that. I've been on both sides of that situation...
GRACE: You sure have.
WECHT: ... for four decades. Right. But...
GRACE: Well, hold on, Doctor. Before I go back into mitochondrial DNA, we may be putting the cart before the horse, since it hasn't been ruled in our out yet.
Let me go back to Ted Rowlands. You know, Ted, listening to Dr. Cyril Wecht talk about the mitochondrial DNA, it seems like it happened a year ago, after what went down in the courtroom today. I want to move us along to Amy Rocha. I know everyone had thought Amber Frey would be the centerpiece of this case, but I consider Amy Rocha to be very, very important, specifically as to what Laci was wearing the day before she went missing. That would be December 23. Did you hear that testimony?
ROWLANDS: Yes. And as we expected, she gave a fairly good description about what Laci was wearing -- beige pants was the main part of it because pants have been recovered here. The question will be, can those pants be analyzed and can a match be made? And that'll be something that maybe Dr. Wecht can answer, if she has a good enough description. She also -- or also was brought up was a videotape of surveillance at the salon Salon. That may come into play, as well, if they get an actual visual on Laci and Scott as they walked in.
The other thing that Amy Rocha also added to this was that Scott told her he was going to play golf on the 24th and that he could go pick up that fruit basket. And that could be key, as well, because, you know, she basically was waiting for him. He, A, didn't play golf, and then, B, didn't call her to say, I'm not going to go pick up that basket.
GRACE: Right. It was a basket for, I think, the grandfather for a birthday or a gift or -- must have been a Christmas gift -- of fruit, cookies, all that. And store closed at a certain time. Scott had said he was going to pick it up. That's a really good point, Ted Rowlands.
Back to what Laci was wearing, the psychological impact on a jury, Robi Ludwig, when they hear Amy Rocha describe what Laci was wearing the last time she saw her...
GRACE: ... and then they see this body. I imagine it's the waistband of the pants, if anything is left at all.
GRACE: If Amy Rocha takes the stand and identifies that waistband...
LUDWIG: And also, friends who knew Laci described her as being very conscious about what she would wear, and the proper things to wear. So it doesn't sound like it's in sync with her personality that she would wear one set of clothes one night, sleep in them, and then get up and wear them. That's not who she was. She was very into how things look and keeping in line with what's proper.
So here you're hearing stories that Scott Peterson is, like weaving, you know -- some lies are bigger than others. And also, in terms of the fisherman stuff, you know, it just didn't sound right to fishermen, not psychologists, that you don't go out in a small boat alone, it's dangerous, that the time of day that he went out was not when traditional fishermen go out. So again, that's all, like -- raises the question, What was he really doing out there?
GRACE: Well, Laura Ingle, regarding the boat, I know that Scott's father, Scott Peterson's father, Lee Peterson, took the stand, said he was proud of his son, but that he knew nothing of him buying a boat. How did Mark Geragos make a comeback from that?
INGLE: He asked him about other things that Scott may have bought in his adult life, and he said, You know, there are things that Scott has done, like he bought a motorcycle, for instance, once.
INGLE: He never knew about it. So Lee said, I never knew that he bought a motorcycle. I never knew that he bought a catamaran. And for that matter, he never knew that he bought that Ford F150 truck that was pulling that boat. He said until he showed up weeks after he bought that boat -- or the truck, I should say, he said, I didn't even know he bought the truck. So there are several times in his adult life that he's bought big things that he never knew about. So that's how he was able to go at it.
GRACE: Well, you know, Chris Pixley, the fact he, Lee Peterson, didn't know about other big purchases Scott had made in the past -- that's some good lawyering on Geragos's part. He clearly had Lee Peterson prepared with all of that when he went to take the stand. So, fine. Lee Peterson didn't know his son had bought a boat. But what about Laci, his wife? What about everybody else in Laci and/or Scott's family? How can Geragos counter that?
PIXLEY: Well, we'll never know if Laci knew about the boat, unless some evidence comes forward that Laci actually saw the boat. And if that does, I think it will put much of this argument to rest. But you know, Nancy, let's put it in perspective. He didn't purchase a house. This wasn't the birth of a new child. This is not the type of event that you go run out and talk to people about. And Lee Peterson put that in perspective for everyone. He's made other purchases before. He's very close to his father, and nonetheless, he hadn't told his father about them.
GRACE: But Chris...
PIXLEY: I also would like to say something, when we get a chance, about what Amy Rocha had to say on Laci dress because I think we're still confused here on the show about what actually that means. She put her in different clothes than the eyewitnesses put her in the following morning. So all of this talk about...
GRACE: Wait a minute. You mean the eyewitness...
GRACE: You mean the eyewitness that had the glass eye?
GRACE: That witness that identified (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
PIXLEY: ... Homer Maldonado (ph), the eyewitness who saw her on Covino Avenue, or Vivian Mitchell, the other eyewitness who saw here. I know that the prosecutors on the panel and out in the media will be able to attack each of them as having a poor memory or being incapable of testifying. But they're the only eyewitnesses we have in this case. They will matter.
And that's why the prosecution is working so hard to show that Laci was lethargic and unable to walk the dog. Turned out today, through the maid and others, that we got testimony that she was very active. Her own mother said she was very active in her pregnancy and that she did like walking the dog. So this was a good day for the defense, not a bad day.
PIRRO: No, it was a bad day, Chris because the...
PIXLEY: You're wrong.
PIRRO: ... the housekeeper -- no, you're wrong because the housekeeper said she didn't walk the dog that day. And I think she was very telling...
PIXLEY: She didn't walk the dog on the 23rd. She did go out shopping. She did get five bags of groceries.
PIRRO: Well, you know what? Her...
PIXLEY: She carried them under her own power into the house and unloaded them. She was active the day before her disappearance.
PIRRO: And that's -- that's -- what -- what does that mean? The truth is that she had go to grocery shopping because her husband was golfing or fishing or whatever he was supposed to be doing.
PIXLEY: Oh, we're back to...
PIRRO: Who else was going to do the grocery shopping?
PIXLEY: ... him being the bad guy. She's still active.
PIRRO: No, what we're doing is...
PIXLEY: That's what matters.
PIRRO: ... we've got a guy here who says that she was dressed in black pants and a white blouse. Now, if her body comes up the a beige pants that her sister says she was wearing, then that is devastating for the defense.
PIXLEY: Her body needs to come up...
PIRRO: And the fact -- and the fact...
PIXLEY: ... with a polka-dot top that her sister saw her in, as well.
PIRRO: And the fact that -- the fact that...
PIXLEY: The fact is that black pants wash out in the ocean...
PIRRO: Oh, they washed out?
PIXLEY: ... for three months.
PIRRO: Like his hair got orange...
PIXLEY: We're going to have forensics. PIRRO: ... from the sun? No.
PIXLEY: We're going to have forensic experts talking about that, though.
PIRRO: You see, if he...
PIXLEY: And you know that, Judge.
PIRRO: ... doesn't tell -- if he doesn't tell his father that he's on a boat, and his father is his boating partner, on the very moment that he says he's on a boat, Chris, I think he may be lying. I think there's a real problem there.
LUDWIG: And not only that...
PIXLEY: You're keying on...
GRACE: Hold on! Hold on, guys!
PIXLEY: You're keying on the phone call to the father.
GRACE: Let's go to Robi.
LUDWIG: And not only that...
PIXLEY: And you know what, Judge?
PIRRO: I'm keying on what the...
PIXLEY: That may be the best evidence.
PIRRO: I'm keying on what the father himself said.
LUDWIG: And also, though -- also, what we're seeing is, we are seeing a pattern of deception. And the pattern is -- here are several big items. Why wouldn't you tell a parent, Hey, you know what? I'm so excited, I just bought a boat. It's that he is capable of being one thing while presenting another image.
PIXLEY: OK, Robi, a pattern of deception -- and it's true, we've seen several lies. They've been poor lies. So how does this guy...
PIXLEY: ... who's such a poor liar...
GRACE: Guys, we've got to take a break.
PIXLEY: How does a guy who's such a poor liar...
GRACE: Chris Pixley...
PIXLEY: ... get away... GRACE: Hold that thought.
PIXLEY: ... with a such clean murder?
GRACE: We're taking a break. We'll come right back to you, Chris.
LUDWIG: He hasn't, Chris.
GRACE: Hold it!
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, in for Larry King tonight. Thank you fro being with us.
Chris Pixley, did you hold that thought?
PIXLEY: I held it, Nancy.
GRACE: OK, let it out.
PIXLEY: Well, Robi makes a good point. You know, Scott's been caught in a number of lies, most of them having to do with Amber Frey, but some other misstatements have come out. The problem that I have with all of that is if Scott is the poor liar that we've seen he is, why is it that he got away with such a clean murder? Now, I know that Jeanine Pirro tell us that he didn't get away with a clean murder. I know Robi...
LUDWIG: And I will say the same thing!
PIXLEY: ... for this point, is saying the same thing.
PIXLEY: But Nancy, no forensic evidence, no cause of death, nothing found in the home at all, no blood or DNA evidence. Remember, they executed...
GRACE: Right. Right. Right.
PIXLEY: ... search warrants on the home back in December. They didn't arrest him until April. The guy's either a mastermind, or he's not the guy who did it.
GRACE: Let me go to you, Dr. Cyril Wecht. If the cause of death had been strangulation or a blow to the head, would you necessarily expect to find DNA evidence in the home?
WECHT: Well, strangulation, of course, would produce no DNA evidence, Nancy, although sometimes, the person being strangled obviously tries to remove the assailant's hands and fingers from his or her throat and may then pick up some DNA from the assailant.
GRACE: Right. WECHT: So that's one thing you look for. With regard to a blow to the head, it would depend upon the instrumentality, and that might have imparted some piece of itself. You know, we go back about 75, 80 years to the famous French criminalist Locard (ph), who, in essence, translated into English, said that any time there's contact between human beings, there's going to be a transfer of something from one to the other.
GRACE: A transfer of something.
WECHT: Of something. Well, and now, if you have a struggle -- and I'm talking generally now...
WECHT: ... not talking about the Peterson case -- generally, different from A shooting B from a distance, or so on, but A and B struggling, fighting, being strangled, being struck on the head and then A now taking the body of B and wrapping it and moving it, and so on...
GRACE: I got it. I got it.
WECHT: You know, some transfer. And then if A and B...
GRACE: I got it.
WECHT: If A and B happen to be living in the same house, Nancy, you know, there's a lot of transfer...
GRACE: Yes, I'm talking about blood. That's what I'm talking about because we understand there is no blood DNA from the home. Don't know if that's true.
Very quickly, Ted Rowlands -- we've only got a few seconds left. There's been a lot of talk about industrial paint, paint possibly from Buoy No. 2, out in the bay being on Scott's boat. True, not true?
ROWLANDS: Well, we don't know yet and we would expect that that would come out here. But at that point, that has not come out.
I think when Detective Brochini (ph) and Grogan (ph) -- either one of those two -- once they take the stand, we'll get a much more clear idea of where this prosecution case is going to go. And they'll fill in a lot of these blanks -- a lot of what it seems as though the prosecution is getting to. And then, of course, when Amber Frey steps up, we'll learn a lot more about maybe some of the potential lies that Scott had towards her.
But, you know, at this point, we really didn't get the bombshell. We didn't get much of anything today. But we got a lot of the little things and I think the pieces will come together next week.
GRACE: And when we come back, everybody, I want to go to Laura Ingle and Ted Rowlands about that Buoy No. 2. It's my understanding it takes about an hour and an hour to get back. Peterson was fishing for two hours. So where was the fishing?
Stay with us.
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace in for Larry King tonight. Thank you for being with us. As you know, I'm in as a guest host, not as a former prosecutor.
We've got a special guest with us now. Joining us is Gloria Allred, who is the attorney, as you know by now, you legal eagles, for Amber Frey, the so-called other woman in this case.
Hi, Gloria. What went down in the courtroom today that particularly interested you?
GLORIA ALLRED, AMBER FREY'S ATTORNEY: Well, of course, Nancy, I was very interested when Sharon Rocha, Laci's mother, and Amy, Laci's sister, both testified that they didn't know anything about the fact that Scott Peterson was having a relationship with Amber Frey.
Sharon had a very close relationship with her daughter, Laci. She testified that she talked to her almost every other day. Saw her, went to the movies with her, went to lunch with her and, of course, talked to her as recently as basically December 23. And yet, she never knew anything about that relationship.
Now, what's interesting about that is that there have been reports -- no testimony yet in the courtroom -- I don't know if there will be -- but reports outside the courtroom, that Scott Peterson has said that he told Laci that he was having a relationship with Amber and that she was either OK with it or at peace with it, something to that effect.
It's hard for me to believe that Laci, a 8-month pregnant woman, would be OK with the fact that her husband having a relationship, a close and intimate relationship, with another woman. And even more importantly, that Laci, finding out such a fact, would not have told her mother.
So, you know, this is yet another secret that is developing and I think that that is really fascinating. We're -- this is Halloween. We're beginning to unmask Scott Peterson. We're finding out who the real Scott Peterson is, at least as some people see him.
GRACE: Let me ask you what you expect to take place on cross- examination of your client, Amber Frey. You know....
GRACE: Mark Geragos is not shy in the courtroom.
ALLRED: No. he is not shy, and of course, I'm not commenting on whether or not Amber Frey will be called next week to testify in this preliminary hearing. But if the district attorney does choose to call her, she certainly will do her duty and take the witness stand and testify truthfully and fully and answered all relevant questions.
Now, Mark Geragos may do what Mark usually does, which is have a very aggressive, in your face, attack-dog type of approach with Amber, particularly because I think that he feels threatened by Amber Frey's testimony. And the more he attacks her, the more, I think, all of us can see that he's going to thinks that it's important what she has to say. But it may boomerang against him, if tries to beat her up, if he tries to muddy her, if he tries to hurt her, and -- that -- because I think that she is going to come across very sympathetically. Much of what she may testify to may, in fact, be corroborated.
ALLRED: So I think he's going to have a challenge.
GRACE: Gloria, is it true that your client took and passed a polygraph?
ALLRED: Unfortunately, I can't comment on that. But I think that it will be clear that she's a very truthful person.
GRACE: Gloria, it was a strategic decision by the state not to bring in hours and hours, literally hundreds of phone calls between Scott Peterson And Amber Frey. Why do you think the prosecution could decide to bring on Amber Frey? We all know she's coming to testify, Gloria. But whatever. We'll pretend we don't know that.
Why her, as opposed to the tapes?
ALLRED: Well, if the prosecution decides to put Amber on the witness stand, it's because they think that she has something to contribute to this case.
ALLRED: But what exactly she may contribute, I would leave to the courtroom and to the questions that are inquired about by the district attorney and by Mr. Geragos, should that occur.
GRACE: Gloria, before I let you go -- I know you're headed out -- you know that Scott -- that Geragos is going to have an intense cross-examination. Will he bring up the naked photos of Amber Frey? Will that be part of his cross? And what relevance could it possibly have?
ALLRED: Well, it doesn't have any relevance whatsoever, Nancy. But, again, you know, he may try to beat her up. Anything to try to discredit her.
But he's not going to be successful. And, you know, it's going to be hard because it's never easy to watch a man beat up on a woman. But -- and if he does that, I think it's going to say more about him than about Amber. But, you know, these photos were published without her consent, over her objection. Her position has always been that she has not released the rights to the photos, and she's filed a lawsuit over it. And so, you know, you know, he may try to get who knows what in. But it's not going to change what Scott Peterson said or did.
GRACE: Gloria Allred, I've got my seat belt buckled. Thank you for being with us.
ALLRED: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Everyone, we are taking a quick break. That was Gloria Allred, who, as you know by now, is representing Amber Frey, the so- called other woman in the Scott Peterson murder case.
Stay with us.
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, in for Larry tonight. Thank you for being with us.
Let's go straight back out to the courthouse and Laura Ingle. She's been in the courtroom all day long. She's a reporter for KFI 640 AM in L.A.
Laura, tell me about Sharon Rocha's testimony, the mother of Laci.
INGLE: Boy, she was solid today. I mean, when she got up on the stand, you know, nobody really knew what was going to happen. But she was very calm, cool and collected. Asked to identify Scott Peterson a few times during her testimony. She looked over at him, identified him. Didn't break down. Held it together. Did very well.
She spoke obviously very warm of her daughter Laci. And when she talked about, you know, her attitude and just how she was, she said she was really headstrong. And that was the point where Laci's friends actually kind of started to tear up and actually openly cried in the courtroom when she was talking about Laci's demeanor. But Sharon really did an excellent job today.
GRACE: But what was the significance of her testimony, other to tell us that Laci is headstrong about her last phone call? About the boat? About the Christmas plans? What was the point?
INGLE: Yes. She talked about -- well, one of the things she talked about was on December 15, her and her companion, Ron Grantski -- they referred to him as her longtime companion -- they've been together 26 years -- says that they went over and had dinner at Scott and Laci's house on December 15. Now Scott Peterson reportedly bought that fishing boat just a few weeks before that.
Ron Grantski is an avid fisherman. He loves to fish. He -- it's one of his favorite things to do. Now when they were over there for dinner, they were all sitting around in the living room, she testified to, and the boat never came up. You would think, she said, Ron would have loved to have talked about something like that. He would have been very interested in that. Scott never brought it up. Fast forward to December 23, the last time Sharon Rocha ever talked to her daughter, 8:30 at night. She talked about that particular phone call. One can only imagine the heartbreaking feelings that she has inside because Laci called her and she was on another call, so she took the call waiting, talked to Laci, and got back on the phone with her girlfriend.
INGLE: And that was the last time she ever talked to her daughter. And so she talked about that conversation, about how they were planning on having brunch the next day, and how Laci seemed like she was in a good mood, seemed tired. But that was pretty much it.
And then, fast forward to December 24, when Scott calls her and says she's missing. She doesn't say I can't seem to find Laci. I don't know where she is. Have you seen her? He just said -- Scott to Sharon -- Laci is missing. That is where the mother's heart drops into her stomach. She knows something's wrong. She puts on warm clothes. She heads right over to the park where Scott tells her that Laci had gone to walk that dog. And when she gets over to the park, Scott shows up, and she testifies that she sees Scott about 30 feet away from her, turned to the side, she could see his profile, and she yells, "Scott! Scott!," and he doesn't turn around and acknowledge her. And she found that to be a little bit odd. So she talked about that.
GRACE: So you're telling me she was on the phone with Laci and a call came in and she said "bye-bye" and that was the last time she ever got to talk to her daughter? Oh, man.
INGLE: Right. I believe she was actually on the phone with her friend, Laci clicked in -- she clicked over, talked to her and clicked back, because, she said, Well, I'll see you tomorrow.
GRACE: Quick -- quick question. Laura, is it my understanding that the day Scott Peterson went fishing, the day Laci went missing, was the virgin voyage of the boat for Scott?
INGLE: You know, I have heard that. But that I did not hear come up in testimony today. But that could very well be true.
GRACE: What do you make of the testimony so far, Jeanine? That of Sharon Rocha.
PIRRO: Well, I am sure it had an emotional charge in the courtroom. I mean, the fact that Laci's friends were crying in the courtroom.
But I think even more significant is the fact that Laci's mother talks about a close relationship and they are indirectly shooting holes at what Scott Peterson has been telling the police.
You know, Laci has -- tells her mother about things and she would have told her mother that Scott told her he was having an affair with Amber Frey. That's not the case. Laci says that Scott is going golfing the next day. She tells that to her mother and, of course, that's not the case. The mother is someone who obviously is sending an emotional charge in the courtroom. And I think the most disturbing part of today's testimony is the testimony of the police officer who says that there are two mops in the bucket outside, which goes to the issue of that cleaning and the smell of bleach that wouldn't hold over from the day the housekeeper was there. So if the police are there on December 24 and the cleaning with bleach was in a backroom on the 23rd, then why do we smell so much of it? Why is the bucket is outside, still wet? Why are there two mops instead of one?
GRACE: Chris Pixley, let me go to you regarding the testimony of Sharon Rocha. It's a tough, tough spot for Mark Geragos because he wants to cross-examine the witness, but you don't want to beat up on her or be sharp with the victim's mother, who is clearly in so much pain.
PIXLEY: Yes. So you focus on those things that support your case. And some of the other things that Sharon Rocha had to say today were that Laci had a very active pregnancy. Again, that helps supports the idea that was she was out walking the dog the next day, just as she had been active doing a number of other things.
She also said Scott was also active in the pregnancy, that he attended Le Mas classes, that he went with Laci to the doctor's appointments.
And so, I think, Mark did what was wisest at this point and focused on that portion of the testimony that would really support his case.
GRACE: Robi Ludwig, the impact -- we don't have a jury right now.
GRACE: We've got a judge. But even with just a judge, the mother's pain...
GRACE: ...that courtroom was so quiet you could hear a pin drop.
LUDWIG: Oh, because it is -- no mother should have to have to go through what this woman is going through. And also, you have to remember that this is a potential trial that's being played out in the media. So the future jurors are watching this case. So everything that goes on is registering on some level, in some way. It's like the opening statement before the opening statement.
GRACE: And you know what else is probably registering? The behavior of the family members.
GRACE: And that Sharon Rocha and Lee Peterson came across as dignified and even-handed in the courtroom...
LUDWIG: That's right.
GRACE: People are going to remember that and have that in their minds when they go in as jurors.
Everybody, we are taking a quick break. There's more to come on the Scott Peterson preliminary hearing. Today is day three and there's no sign of it letting up.
Stay with us.
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace, in for Larry King tonight, and I want to thank you for being with us.
We're talking about day three of the preliminary hearing, state versus Scott Peterson. As you know, Peterson is facing trial if the case is bound over for the murders of his wife, Laci and his son, Connor.
Let's go out to Modesto, California. Standing by is a spokesperson from the Stanislaus County Sheriff's Department, Kelly Huston. Thank you for being with us, Kelly.
Kelly, what's a typical day in the life of Scott Peterson behind bars?
KELLY HUSTON, SPOKESMAN, STANISLAUS COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: Typical day for Scott and the other about 40 or so maximum security inmates is quite boring, frankly. They stay in a six foot by nine foot cement cell, and they are there for most of the day, unless they happen to be taking advantage of one of their two visitations per week, or perhaps going to the shower. But these are maximum security cells. They're in individual cells. So they're not having conversations with other folks. They are stuck there.
GRACE: Can he see his lawyers whenever they come to the jail?
HUSTON: Yes. If they come to visit, we do afford that opportunity, just like all the other inmates.
GRACE: So he gets two visits plus any time the lawyers come?
HUSTON: Right. And, most of the time, now, the maximum security inmates are kept in the cells because most of our maximum security inmates are facing charges similar to Scott's, or they're disciplinary problems. And moving them out of that cell is quite a chore. We have to have two deputies there. They are put in leg chains. They have to be escorted any time they're outside that cell. It's quite a labor- intensive effort. And he spends most of his time inside the cell.
GRACE: Kelly, is it true he's getting lots and lots of love letters? HUSTON: Well, he's getting a lot of -- I don't know what the content of letters are, but he's getting a lot of mail, like a lot of other inmates that are in our maximum security tier. There's other folks in there that have similar notoriety, because they have committed crimes or alleged to have committed crimes in our local area here. So it's not uncommon that that happens.
GRACE: You know, recently, some jailhouse letters have come to light where Scott talks about his conditions behind bars. Question to you, does the jail have the ability and do they read outgoing letters?
HUSTON: We do. We don't -- we read them for the content and security of the facility. We look to see if there's any sort of plan developing to try to escape, or perhaps there's some sort of a security breach planned during a visitation. But all the letters of all the inmates are screened pretty closely for that, in addition to we want to screen it to make sure there's no contraband or weapons coming into the facility.
GRACE: So you basically read all the outgoing mail?
HUSTON: I don't read it.
GRACE: I mean, somebody does.
HUSTON: Somebody reads it. Somebody is looking through for key words or statements that would indicate that there's some sort of a plan to breach our security, and that's really all they're looking for.
GRACE: Well, what do you do if you find a letter where the person describes the crime?
HUSTON: Well, that's a good question. Like I said, we're talking about the security of the facility. So, if it's not something that deals with the security of the facility, usually it's forwarded on to where it needs to go, and sometimes we'll notify attorneys if we think there's something that's particularly relevant to the case, but it just depends.
GRACE: Well, so, from the look of him in court, he's faring very well behind bars. He's got a new look in court now, Jeanine. He looks pretty dapper. But I can't tell you how many cases I've had where I bring in letters the defendant has written from behind bars actually talking about crime. Now, in this case, his letters are nothing like that. They're about him mourning for Laci and Connor, and about the food behind bars, and so forth.
PIRRO: Right. Not at all unusual. But the letters are self- serving, at least the ones that I've heard about, you know, it's poor me, poor me. The food is terrible. But he looks great. He hasn't looked this good since we first saw him on television.
And then in addition to that, what you have is a guy who is attracting a lot of attention. Women are writing to him. And I think we talked about that whole drama about bad boys and women who want to nurture them, or who want to be associated with a celebrity. And make no mistake, Nancy, we celebritize criminals. And that's what we're doing here. And you know, we explain away things that, you know, we interpret one way and they interpret another. But the letters are very telling about what he wants to get out into the public.
GRACE: What is the phenomenon? What's behind the phenomenon of people on trial for murder getting stacks and stacks of love letters, marriage proposals, you name it?
LUDWIG: Well, these are suicidal women. So, I say that half in jest. But really, these are women who are very desperate, who are not able to have normal relationships. So they feel that if they can have a relationship with a man in jail, and I think Jeanine is right, that there is a celebrity factor here, he's infamous, he's the bad boy, they can convert them, they can get attention. It's this false intimacy that they can't get in a normal way.
GRACE: Laura Ingle, we've got less than a minute left, but I wanted to ask you about Scott's appearance in the courtroom today. I know he had that moment with his father, but how did he look?
INGLE: Well, he looked just like you guys have been describing. He looked pretty good. He's got a pretty good looking haircut on him, and he also looks pretty tan. Because we can only see him from the back when he's sitting down.
GRACE: Got to go to a quick break, Laura. I'm going to come right back to you.
GRACE: Scott Peterson in courtroom today. Stay with us, everybody.
GRACE: We are out of time tonight. Thank you for being with us and inviting us into your home. Thank you to the panel. Aaron Brown is up next. Good night, everybody.
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