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CNN Live Sunday

Deadly Day in Iraq

Aired November 02, 2003 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Carol Costello with an update on the breaking news out of Iraq. It is the deadliest day in the six month U.S. occupation. 15 U.S. soldiers killed, 21 more injured in a helicopter crash near Fallujah.
Officials said witnesses told them it was brought down by a shoulder-fired missile. Soldiers were reportedly on their way out of the country for some R&R. The chopper crash was just one of the violent attacks today on U.S. troops. Iraqis threw grenades at troops west of Baghdad, but there are no immediate reports of any injuries in this incident.

And an American convoy was attacked near Fallujah. The three vehicles were heavily damaged, but it's not clear if U.S. troops were in the convoy. One U.S. soldier did die in a separate convoy attack in Baghdad, though.

And news of today's casualties from Iraq will hit hard for troops who are returning stateside for their own R&R. Nearly 500 U.S. troops are due back in this country today from Iraq and elsewhere. Reports say many of those killed or wounded in Iraq today were on their way home for some rest and relaxation.

RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: We have detailed coverage now on today's deadly events in Iraq. CNN's Chris Plante is at the Pentagon with the latest from there. Analyst Ken Pollack joins us from Washington. And General Don Shepperd is in Arizona. We begin, though, with Chris Plante at the Pentagon.

Chris, what's the latest?

CHRIS PLANTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Renay. The latest as we were just hearing is 15 dead, 21 wounded in this incident. The facts as we know them at this point is that two Chinook helicopters, the Army's primary combat transport helicopters, traveling together, two surface-to-air missiles fired at these two helicopters. One of the helicopters apparently brought down as a result of these missiles.

Secretary Rumsfeld is out making the rounds of the talk shows today. We caught up with him a short time ago. And he offered a couple of thoughts as to where the U.S. goes from here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: What will happen next will depend on the security situation on the ground and how successful we are in continuing with our plans to build up the Iraqi forces. In the last analysis, the Iraqis are going to defeat the Ba'athists. It will be the Iraqi people and the Iraqi security forces that will do it. And we just have to make sure we stay there and contribute to that and help them. And that's what we've been doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLANTE: With 21 wounded, according to the current reports in this, it wouldn't be entirely surprising if the death toll were to rise during the course of the day and perhaps over the next several days. Yesterday at a briefing in Baghdad, the commander of ground forces in Iraq, General Ricardo Sanchez, offered a warning that turned out to be all too true.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, CMDR. GROUND FORCES: There have been obstacles in this campaign, a campaign that is designed to bring stability and security to Iraq. Many of these obstacles have been tragic. Undoubtedly, as we continue to fight this low intensity conflict, there will be more obstacles, more setbacks, and more tragedies in the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLANTE: That was General Sanchez yesterday. Certainly has come to pass today. Resistance continues in Iraq. The expectation is that it's not going to end any time soon, at least in this area around Baghdad known as the Ba'athist Triangle or the Sunni Triangle, where Saddam Hussein during his reign enjoyed support -- Renay?

SAN MIGUEL: Chris Plante, live from the Pentagon, thanks so much.

For more analysis now of today's developments in Iraq, we turn to two of CNN's experts. Analyst Ken Pollack of the Brookings Institution joins us live from Washington. And we have our military expert. Retired Major General Don Shepperd's been on the phone with us all morning long from Tucson. Gentlemen, thanks for being with us today.

Mr. Pollack, let me go ahead and start with you. I mean, does this really represent, do you think, a major escalation on the part of the guerrilla complain there? Or for all we know this could have been -- in terms of the helicopter, a tragedy, but it could have been just one person with a shoulder fired missile, getting off a lucky shot.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Yes, unfortunately, I don't think that this represents any kind of escalation. In fact, I'll be honest with you. I have friends in Iraq, in the military, Iraqis themselves who have been telling me for months about repeated incidents where there have been ground-fired, shoulder-fired missiles and others fired at U.S. helicopters and aircraft.

You're absolutely right. This is an incredible tragedy for the soldiers and their families. But I'll be honest with you, this is, as far as I'm concerned, overdue. I have been stunned that we have not had a shoot down like this already for weeks, if not months. And my expectation is given how many of these manned portable shoulder launch surface to air missiles are out there, thousands of SA-7s and newer model SA-14s and 16s, I think that we have to expect that we will see additional shoot downs in the future.

SAN MIGUEL: If that is the case, General Shepperd, the need for greater intelligence on who has those shoulder fired missiles, getting people to -- getting the Iraqis who have got them, to turn them in for cash, that kind of thing, would you expect an escalation on that effort?

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD, RETIRED: Well, we try that all the time, Renay. There's no question that we've been doing it and it's been successful with small numbers. But you're not going to get any huge turn-in of weapons that's going to make a difference in the big picture.

The key to the security in Iraq again is getting the Iraqis trained to take over security in that country and us getting out. As Ken said, this type of attack that took place today, there will be more until the day we get out of there. It's just a fact of life in complicated operations.

SAN MIGUEL: And Ken, you heard what Paul Bremer and Ricardo Sanchez said about escalating the training of those troops, trying to get 200,000 Iraqis handling their own defense by September of 2004. Is that going to be enough? And there's also the question of weeding out those who might still be loyal to Saddam Hussein.

POLLACK: Well, look, if we can get 200,000 troops by 2004, that may well be enough. That's a fair number of troops.

But the problem is we're not at 2004. It's going to be a long time between then and now. And yes, we can accelerate the training. They keep talking about accelerating the training.

But between then and now, I think there are other things that need to happen. And one of them is to concentrate on where all of this is going on and why. You've got a very large segment of the Iraqi population. The Sunnis in particular, the tribal Sunnis, who feel completely disenfranchised by the course of the reconstruction so far. And it's why they are so opposed to the United States, why they're so willing to support the terrorists who are attacking U.S. troops.

Now I think the U.S. needs to -- while simultaneously training up Iraqi security forces, also make much more of an effort to convince the Sunni population of Iraq that they're actually going to benefit from the reconstruction.

SAN MIGUEL: General Shepperd, we talked earlier this morning about the need to bridge some of these cultural gaps that are going on between the U.S. forces and the Iraqis, you know, being culturally sensitive to these kind of things. I'm wondering, you know, if there needs to be an enhancement in training to make sure that when you're interrogating Iraqis, that they -- that you know, you don't offend them in some certain way, and you actually can get some valuable information about who's got shoulder fired missiles, and where some of these insurgents are.

SHEPPERD: Well, you can talk about that all you want, Renay, but the harsh fact is that as long as we're there, we're not going to be considered culturally sensitive. The troops do get training. But again on a recent trip, they were -- it was emphasized that we have ceased the widespread patrols, where we go in and disrupt an entire village, wake up 2,000 households, and that type of thing.

We're trying to get better intelligence so that when we do go in, it's against targeted individuals. And there is indications that a lot of that has been successful. They'll go out after 15 people and come back with 8 of them. So again, the key is targeted intelligence, not just cultural sensitivity, and getting the Iraqis to do it. And when we do conduct operations, making sure that Iraqis are a major part of the operation.

SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Pollack, I'll give you the last word. Is this something that needs to be done -- what needs to be done in that Sunni Triangle to try to clear out some of this insurgency once and for all?

POLLACK: Well, I think that there a whole variety of different things. But I'll break it up very quickly into two different pieces.

One, there needs to be a long-term effort to bring Sunnis into the interim authority. You know, right now, most Sunnis look at the governing council. They don't see anyone on that who really represents what they believe are their interests. So you need to integrate them more.

In the short term, I think the U.S. needs to go out and start working with a lot of tribal leaders. You know, people always say about Iraq, you can't buy an Iraqi tribe, but you sure can rent them. That's what Saddam Hussein did. And it's kind of -- it's distasteful for us. And we might have been able to do it differently if we had started out differently right after the war, but we didn't. And I think now, we need to start working with tribal leaders and seeing if there are ways that we can get them to help us control their subjects, their troops, who are out there being the ones who are taking the shots at us.

SAN MIGUEL: OK, I lied, General Shepperd, you get the last question. What about what Ken Pollack just said? And especially working with the tribal leaders in that area? That seemed to have worked during the early days of the war in Afghanistan?

SHEPPERD: Yes, again, it's really easy to overlook the fact that the north and the south are fairly secure. And the real problem is in the Sunni Triangle. We've got to concentrate there. And as Ken said, the real key -- and this was repeated by General Sanchez on the visit that were there, and we've heard it also from Ambassador Bremer. We've got to re-enfranchise the Sunnis, so they have a stake in the new country up there. Right now, they have no representation. They don't know the members on the Iraqi council. They feel they have no future, no jobs. All of that has to be corrected in some type of reconciliation, rather than just going out and hunting down the bad guys in their country.

SAN MIGUEL: All right, we have to leave it there. Ken Pollack, Don Shepperd, thanks so much for your expertise, gentlemen. We appreciate your time.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired November 2, 2003 - 10:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Carol Costello with an update on the breaking news out of Iraq. It is the deadliest day in the six month U.S. occupation. 15 U.S. soldiers killed, 21 more injured in a helicopter crash near Fallujah.
Officials said witnesses told them it was brought down by a shoulder-fired missile. Soldiers were reportedly on their way out of the country for some R&R. The chopper crash was just one of the violent attacks today on U.S. troops. Iraqis threw grenades at troops west of Baghdad, but there are no immediate reports of any injuries in this incident.

And an American convoy was attacked near Fallujah. The three vehicles were heavily damaged, but it's not clear if U.S. troops were in the convoy. One U.S. soldier did die in a separate convoy attack in Baghdad, though.

And news of today's casualties from Iraq will hit hard for troops who are returning stateside for their own R&R. Nearly 500 U.S. troops are due back in this country today from Iraq and elsewhere. Reports say many of those killed or wounded in Iraq today were on their way home for some rest and relaxation.

RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: We have detailed coverage now on today's deadly events in Iraq. CNN's Chris Plante is at the Pentagon with the latest from there. Analyst Ken Pollack joins us from Washington. And General Don Shepperd is in Arizona. We begin, though, with Chris Plante at the Pentagon.

Chris, what's the latest?

CHRIS PLANTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Renay. The latest as we were just hearing is 15 dead, 21 wounded in this incident. The facts as we know them at this point is that two Chinook helicopters, the Army's primary combat transport helicopters, traveling together, two surface-to-air missiles fired at these two helicopters. One of the helicopters apparently brought down as a result of these missiles.

Secretary Rumsfeld is out making the rounds of the talk shows today. We caught up with him a short time ago. And he offered a couple of thoughts as to where the U.S. goes from here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: What will happen next will depend on the security situation on the ground and how successful we are in continuing with our plans to build up the Iraqi forces. In the last analysis, the Iraqis are going to defeat the Ba'athists. It will be the Iraqi people and the Iraqi security forces that will do it. And we just have to make sure we stay there and contribute to that and help them. And that's what we've been doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLANTE: With 21 wounded, according to the current reports in this, it wouldn't be entirely surprising if the death toll were to rise during the course of the day and perhaps over the next several days. Yesterday at a briefing in Baghdad, the commander of ground forces in Iraq, General Ricardo Sanchez, offered a warning that turned out to be all too true.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, CMDR. GROUND FORCES: There have been obstacles in this campaign, a campaign that is designed to bring stability and security to Iraq. Many of these obstacles have been tragic. Undoubtedly, as we continue to fight this low intensity conflict, there will be more obstacles, more setbacks, and more tragedies in the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLANTE: That was General Sanchez yesterday. Certainly has come to pass today. Resistance continues in Iraq. The expectation is that it's not going to end any time soon, at least in this area around Baghdad known as the Ba'athist Triangle or the Sunni Triangle, where Saddam Hussein during his reign enjoyed support -- Renay?

SAN MIGUEL: Chris Plante, live from the Pentagon, thanks so much.

For more analysis now of today's developments in Iraq, we turn to two of CNN's experts. Analyst Ken Pollack of the Brookings Institution joins us live from Washington. And we have our military expert. Retired Major General Don Shepperd's been on the phone with us all morning long from Tucson. Gentlemen, thanks for being with us today.

Mr. Pollack, let me go ahead and start with you. I mean, does this really represent, do you think, a major escalation on the part of the guerrilla complain there? Or for all we know this could have been -- in terms of the helicopter, a tragedy, but it could have been just one person with a shoulder fired missile, getting off a lucky shot.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Yes, unfortunately, I don't think that this represents any kind of escalation. In fact, I'll be honest with you. I have friends in Iraq, in the military, Iraqis themselves who have been telling me for months about repeated incidents where there have been ground-fired, shoulder-fired missiles and others fired at U.S. helicopters and aircraft.

You're absolutely right. This is an incredible tragedy for the soldiers and their families. But I'll be honest with you, this is, as far as I'm concerned, overdue. I have been stunned that we have not had a shoot down like this already for weeks, if not months. And my expectation is given how many of these manned portable shoulder launch surface to air missiles are out there, thousands of SA-7s and newer model SA-14s and 16s, I think that we have to expect that we will see additional shoot downs in the future.

SAN MIGUEL: If that is the case, General Shepperd, the need for greater intelligence on who has those shoulder fired missiles, getting people to -- getting the Iraqis who have got them, to turn them in for cash, that kind of thing, would you expect an escalation on that effort?

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD, RETIRED: Well, we try that all the time, Renay. There's no question that we've been doing it and it's been successful with small numbers. But you're not going to get any huge turn-in of weapons that's going to make a difference in the big picture.

The key to the security in Iraq again is getting the Iraqis trained to take over security in that country and us getting out. As Ken said, this type of attack that took place today, there will be more until the day we get out of there. It's just a fact of life in complicated operations.

SAN MIGUEL: And Ken, you heard what Paul Bremer and Ricardo Sanchez said about escalating the training of those troops, trying to get 200,000 Iraqis handling their own defense by September of 2004. Is that going to be enough? And there's also the question of weeding out those who might still be loyal to Saddam Hussein.

POLLACK: Well, look, if we can get 200,000 troops by 2004, that may well be enough. That's a fair number of troops.

But the problem is we're not at 2004. It's going to be a long time between then and now. And yes, we can accelerate the training. They keep talking about accelerating the training.

But between then and now, I think there are other things that need to happen. And one of them is to concentrate on where all of this is going on and why. You've got a very large segment of the Iraqi population. The Sunnis in particular, the tribal Sunnis, who feel completely disenfranchised by the course of the reconstruction so far. And it's why they are so opposed to the United States, why they're so willing to support the terrorists who are attacking U.S. troops.

Now I think the U.S. needs to -- while simultaneously training up Iraqi security forces, also make much more of an effort to convince the Sunni population of Iraq that they're actually going to benefit from the reconstruction.

SAN MIGUEL: General Shepperd, we talked earlier this morning about the need to bridge some of these cultural gaps that are going on between the U.S. forces and the Iraqis, you know, being culturally sensitive to these kind of things. I'm wondering, you know, if there needs to be an enhancement in training to make sure that when you're interrogating Iraqis, that they -- that you know, you don't offend them in some certain way, and you actually can get some valuable information about who's got shoulder fired missiles, and where some of these insurgents are.

SHEPPERD: Well, you can talk about that all you want, Renay, but the harsh fact is that as long as we're there, we're not going to be considered culturally sensitive. The troops do get training. But again on a recent trip, they were -- it was emphasized that we have ceased the widespread patrols, where we go in and disrupt an entire village, wake up 2,000 households, and that type of thing.

We're trying to get better intelligence so that when we do go in, it's against targeted individuals. And there is indications that a lot of that has been successful. They'll go out after 15 people and come back with 8 of them. So again, the key is targeted intelligence, not just cultural sensitivity, and getting the Iraqis to do it. And when we do conduct operations, making sure that Iraqis are a major part of the operation.

SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Pollack, I'll give you the last word. Is this something that needs to be done -- what needs to be done in that Sunni Triangle to try to clear out some of this insurgency once and for all?

POLLACK: Well, I think that there a whole variety of different things. But I'll break it up very quickly into two different pieces.

One, there needs to be a long-term effort to bring Sunnis into the interim authority. You know, right now, most Sunnis look at the governing council. They don't see anyone on that who really represents what they believe are their interests. So you need to integrate them more.

In the short term, I think the U.S. needs to go out and start working with a lot of tribal leaders. You know, people always say about Iraq, you can't buy an Iraqi tribe, but you sure can rent them. That's what Saddam Hussein did. And it's kind of -- it's distasteful for us. And we might have been able to do it differently if we had started out differently right after the war, but we didn't. And I think now, we need to start working with tribal leaders and seeing if there are ways that we can get them to help us control their subjects, their troops, who are out there being the ones who are taking the shots at us.

SAN MIGUEL: OK, I lied, General Shepperd, you get the last question. What about what Ken Pollack just said? And especially working with the tribal leaders in that area? That seemed to have worked during the early days of the war in Afghanistan?

SHEPPERD: Yes, again, it's really easy to overlook the fact that the north and the south are fairly secure. And the real problem is in the Sunni Triangle. We've got to concentrate there. And as Ken said, the real key -- and this was repeated by General Sanchez on the visit that were there, and we've heard it also from Ambassador Bremer. We've got to re-enfranchise the Sunnis, so they have a stake in the new country up there. Right now, they have no representation. They don't know the members on the Iraqi council. They feel they have no future, no jobs. All of that has to be corrected in some type of reconciliation, rather than just going out and hunting down the bad guys in their country.

SAN MIGUEL: All right, we have to leave it there. Ken Pollack, Don Shepperd, thanks so much for your expertise, gentlemen. We appreciate your time.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com