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Conduct Unbecoming?

Aired November 07, 2003 - 10:36   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let me get some more information on more insight on this case out of fort Carson, Colorado, this staff sergeant, George Andreas Pogany, originally charged with cowardice after an incident in Kamara (ph), Iraq back in September. He said he witnessed a horrific event and had a panic attack, and went to his superiors for some help, and he says was just given a couple sleeping pills and basically told to get over it. Eventually was shipped back here to the U.S., charged with cowardice, now facing reduced charges, but this sergeant saying he shouldn't be facing any charges at all. What he really needed was some help.
I want to bring in now Scott Silliman. He is head of Duke University's Center for Law Ethics and National Security at Duke University Law School, and the man we call on when we have military justice questions.

Scott, good you see you once again.

SCOTT SILLIMAN, FMR. AIR FORCE ATTY.: Good to be with you again, Daryn.

KAGAN: Tracked you down in Jacksonville, Florida.

SILLIMAN: Right.

KAGAN: OK, let's talk about, first of all, the difference between these two charges. He was charged with cowardice. Now it's dereliction of duty, a lot of space in between those two charges.

SILLIMAN: There really is, Daryn. As Bob mentioned in his lead- in, the misbehavior before the enemy because of cowardice is an extremely serious offense. The last one was in Vietnam. Carries the death penalty. And as your viewers have heard the facts, it just wasn't there. The Army did overreact. The dereliction of duty, and it's really a willful dereliction of duty, Daryn, that carries up to a year punishment, is miles away, as far as less in severity. And my guess is if the army presses to a court-martial at all, it will be a special court-martial, not a general court-martial, and they might even dispose of this administratively.

KAGAN: It sounds like a different type of culture. We should mention that the staff sergeant was also working with a group of Green Berets at the time. I don't think there's a group that comes much more macho and hardcore in the military than the Green Berets. Perhaps they don't have room for someone saying they are having a panic attack. SILLIMAN: Well, I think you're right, Daryn. You are talking about the Green Berets, you are talking about the Delta Force folks. These are folks that do things you and I never dream of, and they have to do very hard things, and they are used to seeing bodies, as this young sergeant did, but the fact he was attached to them as an interpreter, not a Green Beret, I think makes the culture rift there, and I think that's what the Army finally realized, and they brought it back to Fort Collins, recognizing that this young man probably was sick. He threw up, at least the facts are such to verify that. And so he just couldn't perform, and so that's the fact situation the Army is dealing with. And I think we're in a much more appropriate level -- Daryn.

KAGAN: I have to say, of course, I'm looking at the story completely from a civilian point of view, but the idea of somebody being in a war situation, seeing something so horrific and having a panic attack and wanting help, I can't believe we don't hear more about these situations. Forget about the court-martial, how about the mental health aspect of the military?

SILLIMAN: Well, I think we are seeing that, Daryn, in many ways. You have got the Gulf War Syndrome. You've got incidences of a lot of soldiers coming back from Afghanistan and Iraq that have trouble dealing with the transition from a war environment where killing is the norm, coming home in a station. And down at Fort Bragg, in North Carolina, you had several soldiers that were involved in assaults and even murders down there. So I think all the services are very worried about the tremendous difference between a wartime environment, what our soldiers go through, and then the peacetime environment. And again, this young man had only been over there in Iraq for a month.

KAGAN: Scott Silliman from Duke University. Thanks for your insight in helping us understand that world that you've seen quite a bit. Appreciate it.

SILLIMAN: Thanks, Daryn.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 7, 2003 - 10:36   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let me get some more information on more insight on this case out of fort Carson, Colorado, this staff sergeant, George Andreas Pogany, originally charged with cowardice after an incident in Kamara (ph), Iraq back in September. He said he witnessed a horrific event and had a panic attack, and went to his superiors for some help, and he says was just given a couple sleeping pills and basically told to get over it. Eventually was shipped back here to the U.S., charged with cowardice, now facing reduced charges, but this sergeant saying he shouldn't be facing any charges at all. What he really needed was some help.
I want to bring in now Scott Silliman. He is head of Duke University's Center for Law Ethics and National Security at Duke University Law School, and the man we call on when we have military justice questions.

Scott, good you see you once again.

SCOTT SILLIMAN, FMR. AIR FORCE ATTY.: Good to be with you again, Daryn.

KAGAN: Tracked you down in Jacksonville, Florida.

SILLIMAN: Right.

KAGAN: OK, let's talk about, first of all, the difference between these two charges. He was charged with cowardice. Now it's dereliction of duty, a lot of space in between those two charges.

SILLIMAN: There really is, Daryn. As Bob mentioned in his lead- in, the misbehavior before the enemy because of cowardice is an extremely serious offense. The last one was in Vietnam. Carries the death penalty. And as your viewers have heard the facts, it just wasn't there. The Army did overreact. The dereliction of duty, and it's really a willful dereliction of duty, Daryn, that carries up to a year punishment, is miles away, as far as less in severity. And my guess is if the army presses to a court-martial at all, it will be a special court-martial, not a general court-martial, and they might even dispose of this administratively.

KAGAN: It sounds like a different type of culture. We should mention that the staff sergeant was also working with a group of Green Berets at the time. I don't think there's a group that comes much more macho and hardcore in the military than the Green Berets. Perhaps they don't have room for someone saying they are having a panic attack. SILLIMAN: Well, I think you're right, Daryn. You are talking about the Green Berets, you are talking about the Delta Force folks. These are folks that do things you and I never dream of, and they have to do very hard things, and they are used to seeing bodies, as this young sergeant did, but the fact he was attached to them as an interpreter, not a Green Beret, I think makes the culture rift there, and I think that's what the Army finally realized, and they brought it back to Fort Collins, recognizing that this young man probably was sick. He threw up, at least the facts are such to verify that. And so he just couldn't perform, and so that's the fact situation the Army is dealing with. And I think we're in a much more appropriate level -- Daryn.

KAGAN: I have to say, of course, I'm looking at the story completely from a civilian point of view, but the idea of somebody being in a war situation, seeing something so horrific and having a panic attack and wanting help, I can't believe we don't hear more about these situations. Forget about the court-martial, how about the mental health aspect of the military?

SILLIMAN: Well, I think we are seeing that, Daryn, in many ways. You have got the Gulf War Syndrome. You've got incidences of a lot of soldiers coming back from Afghanistan and Iraq that have trouble dealing with the transition from a war environment where killing is the norm, coming home in a station. And down at Fort Bragg, in North Carolina, you had several soldiers that were involved in assaults and even murders down there. So I think all the services are very worried about the tremendous difference between a wartime environment, what our soldiers go through, and then the peacetime environment. And again, this young man had only been over there in Iraq for a month.

KAGAN: Scott Silliman from Duke University. Thanks for your insight in helping us understand that world that you've seen quite a bit. Appreciate it.

SILLIMAN: Thanks, Daryn.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com