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PAULA ZAHN NOW
Interview With Congressman Dick Gephardt; Millionaire Cleared of Murder
Aired November 11, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: "In Focus" tonight: The millionaire who admits he shot his neighbor and chopped him up is cleared of murder charges.
Democratic presidential candidate Richard Gephardt, his wife, and their daughter join us for their first interview together on TV. Is America ready for a gay first daughter?
Obesity as a disease, an argument that won't go away. Accommodating the obese -- is the U.S. going easy on an epidemic?
Good evening. Welcome. Glad to have you with us tonight.
Also ahead: the judge under fire for showing up at a Halloween party in blackface, an afro wig, and a prison jumpsuit. Political correctness gone too wrong or a judge in need of correction?
And so far this year, seven American servicewomen have died in Iraq, one fewer than died during all of the Vietnam War. On this Veterans Day, we'll look at the growing role of women in the military.
Plus, we'll be asking former Pentagon spokeswoman Torie Clarke why we are hearing rumblings now about reviving the draft.
Also, a new report that high school kids are turning overnight college campus tours into party central, with drinking, drugs and sex.
First, some of the headlines you need to know right now.
More explosions today near U.S. headquarters in Baghdad. U.S. officials say three mortar rounds or rockets struck, damaging vehicles, but not injuring anyone. Later, witnesses said U.S. troops found rocket launchers at a school.
Twenty-month-old Mackayala Jespersen's is doing a little better today, her condition upgraded from critical to serious. She had been pronounced dead last week after she was found at the bottom of a backyard swimming pool in Orange, California. She was revived 40 minutes later, after a police detective noticed that she was in fact breathing.
And actor Art Carney has died at the age of 85 after a long illness. He will always be remembered as Jackie Gleason bumbling neighbor, Ed Norton, on "The Honeymooners." He won four Emmys for that role, but later was the original Felix Unger in "The Odd Couple" on Broadway, and won a best actor Oscar in 1974 for his role in "Harry and Tonto." More on Art Carney's career still ahead.
And in a stunning decision, a Texas jury today acquitted Robert Durst of murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the verdict of the jury as such, we the jury find the defendant, Robert Durst, not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: The New York millionaire admitted to killing and to dismembering a neighbor, but he said he did it in self-defense, and the jury agreed. "In Focus" tonight: the Durst verdict.
Joining us now from Galveston, Durst's defense lawyer, Dick DeGuerin, and alternate juror Glenda Brents.
Good evening to both of you. And here in the studio with me, our regular contributor, legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
Glad to have all of you with us.
ZAHN: Mr. DeGuerin, a lot of legal analysts thought the prosecution had a slam-dunk case here. What went wrong for them?
DICK DEGUERIN, ATTORNEY FOR ROBERT DURST: Well, it wasn't a slam-dunk case for them at all.
They didn't have proof of whose finger was on the trigger. And they didn't have proof of why Morris Black died. We had a leg up on them, because we knew from Bob Durst exactly what happened in that room. The thing that was so tough about the case was all the things that Bob did after. And we had to get a jury that could intellectually separate the panic, the fear that came after Morris Black was dead from the way he died.
And this jury worked long and hard to do that. I'm proud of them. A lot of people were shocked by the verdict, but they weren't jurors. They weren't there. They didn't hear everything.
ZAHN: If you had been sitting on that jury, Jeffrey Toobin, would you have convicted Robert Durst?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Based on what I know, you bet I would have.
This looked like a very strong case to me. And what I can't help thinking is, how many people on Texas death row -- and there are hundreds there -- wouldn't be there if they had a great, great lawyer like Dick DeGuerin, who is also very expensive and an illustration of the two legal systems we have in this country? ZAHN: And so you're that Dick DeGuerin gives, what -- give attorneys a bad name? Is that what you're saying, Jeffrey?
TOOBIN: No, I don't think he gives them a bad name. It's that he just illustrates that we have two legal systems in this country, because, if this were an ordinary case, this guy would be convicted without a -- in a heartbeat.
ZAHN: Mr. DeGuerin, I want to come back to a point you were making. When you asked the jury only to consider only what happened in the room on the day of the murder, why was it not relevant that the body was dismembered after the fact and that your client jumped bail?
DEGUERIN: Well, that's not what we asked the jury.
We told the jury they were going to hear about that when we were selecting the jury. We told them about that in opening statement. We told them that that was going to be part of the evidence. But we also told them that you have to keep in mind what happened at the time that Morris Black died and then see whether all this other stuff bears on that.
If Morris Black died as a result of Bob Durst acting in self- defense, and the gun went off accidentally while he was doing that, then nothing he did, whether he cut up the body and threw it in the bay oar not, could change that fact. He was already dead. And this jury was able to see that and to keep those things separate.
They heard all that evidence. And it could go to either a guilty state of mind, which is what I guess the country is thinking, or it could go to a state of panic, a state of just fear and fright.
ZAHN: Glenda, before you were dismissed from the jury, were you able to separate those two things or did you think Mr. Durst was guilty of murder?
GLENDA BRENTS, ALTERNATE JUROR: When I was dismissed from the trial, I knew for a fact that Mr. Durst was guilty.
And I kept the dismemberment and all of the cover-up in the back of my mind, but not totally out of the realm, because we were told that you needed to consider all of the evidence, including what happened prior to the shooting, as well as what happened after the shooting. And I -- what convicted Durst, in my opinion, was his testimony. I didn't believe it.
ZAHN: Well, apparently, Jeffrey, a number of jurors
TOOBIN: Why isn't it relevant to his state of mind? If he really was acting in self-defense, why didn't he just call the cops when he killed him and said, look at this terrible accident, instead of chopping him up and then skipping town? DEGUERIN: Well, Jeffrey, first, we never said it wasn't relevant what happened after Morris Black died. We never said that.
What we said is, you've got to realize what was going on in Bob Durst's mind. Was he running because he felt he was guilty or was he running because he was afraid because of a panicked state? And that's what the jury believed, I'm pretty sure. Now, as far as
ZAHN: Glenda, you obviously believe justice was not served.
DEGUERIN: No. And there was never any kind of example at all from any of the testimony, from any of the evidence, that Mr. Durst actually tried to get help after Morris Black was shot. And I waited for that.
I was hoping to hear something to verify the story. And there was no -- there was nothing. There was no one that could say that, yes, he did try to get help, and, yes, he was just in a panicked state. I didn't see it. And bottom line, Mr. Durst is a habitual liar. And then, all of a sudden, he's going to start telling the truth? I just didn't believe it.
ZAHN: Well, you raised a lot of questions for all of us to ponder this evening.
Mr. DeGuerin, thank you for coming in to talk to us about the verdict.
Jeffrey Toobin, thanks for your time as well.
And, Glenda, again, good of you to drop by.
And a white Louisiana state judge is under fire for wearing blackface, a prison jumpsuit, and shackles as a costume for a Halloween party. Judge Timothy Ellender says it was all a harmless joke. But black leaders aren't laughing and are considering filing a complaint against him.
Joining me now are, once again, Jeffrey Toobin, who never left the set, and Jeremy Boykin, president of the Terrebonne branch of the NAACP.
Good to see you, Jerome.
JEROME BOYKIN SR., NAACP: Same to you.
ZAHN: When you heard that the judge had done this, Jerome, what did you think?
BOYKIN: I was very concerned, because judges are held to a higher standard. And to hear that a judge dressed up in a prison uniform, where he put black polish on his face, wearing an afro wig, dressed in an orange prison jumpsuit, with his ankles shackled, his wrists shackled, and drinking and making fun, I definitely can tell you, this is not a joke. And the NAACP is very serious about the judge's inappropriate action.
ZAHN: When you say the NAACP is serious about his inappropriate actions, he has apologized, said he meant it to be harmless. And, obviously, it was not. What do you plan to do about it?
BOYKIN: Well, we plan to file a complaint with the Louisiana Judicial Council in reference to the judge's action. How can this judge make decisions on African-Americans and other people's lives and be fair after going out in the community drinking and dressed up as an African-American? We totally believe that this judge was stereotyping black males.
ZAHN: And one of the implications of this, Jeffrey, is that the records might be open and they're going to start analyzing the conviction rate of blacks vs. whites in this county. And the list goes on and on and on.
TOOBIN: Sometimes, political correctness goes wild. But this is not political correctness gone
ZAHN: What is this, in your judgment?
TOOBIN: This is wrong. This is intense stupidity. And the only question is, what should be the sanction?
Now, it may be too much of a sanction to throw him off the bench. That does seem rather excessive. But some sort of sanction does seem appropriate and some recognition that judges are symbols of justice. They appear -- they have black people and white people appear in front of them all the time in highly charged circumstances. And it's simply wrong, what he did. Some sort of sanction, some sort of censure does seem appropriate.
Judge Ellender, I know, as I understand it, has offered to meet with the NAACP, which I think is highly appropriate. I think he should do that and apologize, as he's done. But this is no joke. What he did was really wrong.
ZAHN: And, Jerome, when you finally sit down with the judge, would you ask him to be booted from the bench?
BOYKIN: Well, first of all, I would like to hear his reply about what he did and why he did what he did.
We want to give the judge the opportunity. I contacted the judge's office. And they said he was going to get back in touch with us. I've had people who have come to us and stated that the judge said that he wanted to meet with me of the NAACP. He didn't want to meet with other community leaders.
But I want to say, the judge, and no one else, is going to dictate to the NAACP who we can bring to a meeting and who we cannot bring to a meeting.
ZAHN: Is there anything this judge can say that will satisfy you during this meeting?
BOYKIN: To be totally honest with you, I have a lot that I would like to say to the judge in person. But, to this community, this is not a black issue, OK? This is a community issue. As a matter of fact, the people who contacted the NAACP was five white citizens who were disturbed by what -- the way the judge was dressed.
TOOBIN: That's really an excellent point, that this is not a black issue.
ZAHN: That is a very good point.
TOOBIN: That this is not a black issue. This is an issue about justice. This is an issue about how judges should behave in the community. And this was really beyond the pale.
ZAHN: Well, Mr. Boykin, we'll be in touch with you after those meetings with the judge. Thank for you for dropping by tonight.
BOYKIN: Thank you very much.
ZAHN: And thank you hanging around so much tonight, Jeffrey.
And, for the first time, Democratic presidential candidate Dick Gephardt sits down for an interview with his wife and daughter, who is openly gay.
Also, as we mark Veterans Day, we ask whether the draft is on its way back.
And also, a look at the changing role of women in the U.S. military.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've been trained from day one that we're not girls specifically. We're females. We're just a soldier. We wear green, just like them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Welcome back.
Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's campaign in turmoil tonight. The Massachusetts senator replaced his campaign manager on Sunday. And, today, his press secretary and deputy finance director quit. What the heck is going on?
Let's go to Washington now, where our senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley, is standing by.
So, Candy, is this over for John King -- John King. John King works for us. He's on the staff at CNN. John Kerry.
How much trouble is he in?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, you don't want to spend two days in a row talking about a staff shake-up. A staff is shaken up because the campaign is not going well.
We're told that John Kerry did indeed fire his campaign manager, because he was being pressured by those who are supporting him, those who are giving him money, to do something, to shake up his campaign, which started out as a front-runner and is now trailing Howard Dean. What you got today was some blowback. These are two people who resigned because the campaign manager was fired.
So, obviously, there's still some inner turmoil in this campaign. It is going to take a while for it to shake down. They have new people in place, put them in place immediately. But what John Kerry has to do is change John Kerry's message. This is less about the staff than it is about the candidate. And insofar as this new staff can help him, then that's to the better. But we are almost -- just a little over 70 days to the Iowa caucuses. This is isn't what you want to be spending your time thinking about.
ZAHN: Candy Crowley, thanks for the update. Appreciate it.
ZAHN: We're going to move on now.
As America honors its veterans today, there are rumblings that the Pentagon is looking at bringing back the draft. Americans haven't faced mandatory military service since the end of the Vietnam era. Could the draft be reinstated?
Here to put that possibly into plain English is our regular contributor, former Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke, who joins us from San Francisco this evening.
Hi, Torie. How you doing tonight?
VICTORIA CLARKE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Good. How are you, Paula?
So why did a Pentagon Web site actually seek people to serve on draft boards?
CLARKE: Well, it's just one of the things you do when you run an institution as large as the Pentagon.
But I have to tell you, there's nothing to the rumblings. I talked to a few people over there today, and there is absolutely no intent or desire or need to reinstitute the draft. So it's just a nonstarter of an issue. The all-volunteer force is working. Last time I checked, the recruiting numbers were good. The retention numbers were good. It's always hard for trends to make themselves visible. But I think they're in pretty good shape.
ZAHN: OK, Torie, you've lost me on this one. You say it's one of the things they do.
ZAHN: It's supposed to have been a routine thing. If it was so routine, why did the Pentagon suddenly remove this from the Web site?
CLARKE: Oh, I don't know who did what in terms of removing it from the Web site.
But you have to understand the size and scope of that place. Now, again, two million employees. The last time I checked, there were something like 2,500, 3,000 Web sites to track all the business and the information for which that place is responsible. So who knows why somebody at probably a pretty low level did that.
But what's important is what the president is thinking about and what the leadership at the Pentagon is thinking about. And they're not thinking about reinstituting the draft.
ZAHN: But with the amount of criticism that some congressional Democrats have put on the administration, you don't think it would be a responsible thing to even consider the draft as an option for the long, hard slog?
CLARKE: Oh, it's absolutely your responsibility always to be looking at the force and saying, do we have the right people? Do we have them in the right jobs? Do we have the right numbers? That goes on constantly.
The big challenge with the force right now is, do we have people in the right roles? Or do we have people in uniform doing things that could better be done by people in civilian attire? So those are the big, critical issues facing the force right now, not reinstituting the draft.
ZAHN: But, Torie, you have to acknowledge, there's a lot of concern about the reenlistment rate. And what if the reenlistment numbers don't stay high?
CLARKE: Well, you don't know yet.
But one thing I do know about the recruiting and the retention is, it does take a while for events, such as military conflict, to manifest itself in any meaning to those numbers. But the last reports on the recruiting and retention were good and the services were making their numbers. Now, you'll have to see. We're in a fairly long, tough period of a conflict here. And we'll have to see.
Are there people who want to sign up because they see the military doing very important work? Are there people and parents who say, boy, that is dangerous, tough work, and I don't know if I want my kid in that? It will take some time to see what the impact of that is. ZAHN: Torie Clark, thanks for analyzing that for us this evening. Appreciate it.
CLARKE: Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obesity is -- it's the fastest-growing disease in America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Our debate tonight: As America battles an epidemic of obesity, should society bear the costs?
Also, American women serving during wartime. On this Veterans Day, we look at the changing role of women in the military.
ZAHN: Today marks the 10th anniversary of the Vietnam Women's Memorial in Washington. It's a monument to the 10,000 American women who served in Vietnam. Since then, opportunities for women in the U.S. military have widened, as have the risks. Seven American women have been killed in Iraq this year, a sign of just how much their roles have changed.
Kathleen Koch reports.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Who's the face of today's military? G.I. Joe may be leading the fight, but more and more of the roles are played by G.I. Jane.
SPC. RACHEL STEPHENS, 401ST M.P. COMPANY: I'm Specialist Stephens.
KOCH: Woman M.P.s manning big guns, working near the front lines of battle.
STEPHENS: I'm stationed here in Tikrit, Iraq.
STAFF SGT. CHAPMAN, U.S. ARMY: My name is Daysen (ph) Chapman .
KOCH: And female battlefield medics taking care of those bloodied in Baghdad.
CHAPMAN: I'm a 91 Whiskey combat medic.
2ND. LT. MELISSA CURRY, U.S. ARMY: How did you sleep last night?
I'm Melissa Curry.
You're coming along here.
KOCH: And the silent stateside heroes, the military women who remain in the U.S., taking care of the worst wounded.
CURRY: I work at ward 57 at Walter Reed Army Center. We deal with orthopedics and amputees on this ward.
KOCH: The rules of engagement have changed. There are now over 200,000 active-duty women in the military. And women are certainly winning many battles in their fight for equality. Have made agreed strides since the Vietnam era, women soldiers are now allowed to do almost everything men can do.
Specialist Stephens provides protection for her battalion commander.
STEPHENS: We're as close as you can get to the front lines. Here in Iraq, we are the front lines. And before, they were -- the women were medics. They were kind of secretaries. They were kind of afraid to break that barrier. And I think it's come a long way.
KOCH: Second Lieutenant Curry may second in what was traditionally the only option for women in the military.
CURRY: Have you been changing your dressing at all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure have.
KOCH: But she's had very untraditional opportunities.
CURRY: I think I am one of the prime examples of a female coming through the ranks. Like, I started enlisted, had the opportunity. I've gotten my associate's bachelor's and working on my master's in the military.
KOCH: And Staff Sergeant Chapman has already worked her way up through seven ranks. She's is paving the way for others like her.
CHAPMAN: You do get people that think, just because you're a woman, that you're not fit for the job. But, to me, I don't use words. I always show, I can do this.
KOCH: But even being a medic doesn't make it easy to face the brutality of war.
CHAPMAN: I think the first day that I saw a dead soldier was the -- one of the hardest days.
KOCH: But to these women who are securing a place in history, there is plenty to keep them going.
CURRY: The reward at the end of that it just to see these guys walk out of here. And they're ready to either go back in the Army, back to their unit, or just retire out of the military.
KOCH: The rewards are different for each soldier. For Specialist Stephens, whose husband is deployed near her in Tikrit, hers comes when she gets to sit down with her husband over dinner in the mess to talk about life in war. Kathleen Koch, CNN, Washington.
ZAHN: And, as we observe Veterans Day today, we'll see a remarkable reunion, a father back from duty and the very special surprise he delivered to his children.
Also, in their first interview on television, we speak with Democratic presidential candidate Dick Gephardt, his wife and their daughter, who is openly gay.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I've learned that I love my daughter more than anything in the world. She is our first priority. I didn't want her to be injured in any way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Welcome back.
Here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.
President Bush says the war in Iraq is testing the will and resolve of America, but U.S. troops will prevail, with the Iraqi people's help. Mr. Bush vigorously defended his Iraq strategy in a Veterans Day speech to the Heritage Foundation in Washington.
And new research shows nearly twice as many people survive cardiac arrest in public places where volunteers are trained to use defibrillators. The devices can shock victims' hearts into beating normally again.
And America's lost won of its best-loved comic actors. Oscar and Emmy awardwinner Art Carney's family disclosed today that he, in fact, died Sunday at the age of 85 in a Connecticut home after a very long illness.
Lauren Hunter has this remembrance.
JACKIE GLEASON, ACTOR: Well, go ahead, make the toast, Norton.
ART CARNEY, ACTOR: Well, wait a minute. Let me think. OK. I'm ready.
GLEASON: All right. Down the hatch.
LAUREN HUNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Art Carney's career stretched from the late days of vaudeville into the video era. But his signature role was that of the world's most famous engineer of subterranean janitor, sewer worker Ed Norton, sidekick to Jackie Gleason's Ralph Kramden on "The Honeymooners," and a role that earned Carney five Emmys.
CARNEY: Well, maybe that's you're problem. Maybe split personality. You know, you're two people.
GLEASON: Never mind, Norton. Never mind.
CARNEY: You're big enough to be three people.
HUNTER: A natural mimic, Carney broke into showbiz right out of high school as a singer of novelty songs for Horace Heidt Band. He segued from that into radio. World War II interrupted his career, but in the post-war dawn of television, Carney teamed up with Jackie Gleason, playing a variety of sketch characters that chrystalized with "The Honeymooners."
CARNEY: The night's so young and she's so beautiful.
GLEASON: And you're so nuts!
HUNTER: When "The Honeymooners" left the air in the late 50;s, Carney's career blossomed on the big screen and the Broadway stage. He created the role of Felix Ungerer in the original run of "The Odd Couple" and played a wide range of film roles. Movies like "Going In Style," "Firestarter," and "Harry and Tonto," for which he received an Academy Award for best actor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you broke?
CARNEY: No, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you hitchhiking?
CARNEY: My cat just didn't like buses.
HUNTER: In recent years, Carney appeared as a grandfatherly pitchman for Coca-Cola in an acclaimed series of commercials. Carney rarely performed in dramatic roles, saying the work took too much out of him. But Alfred Lunt, one of the great stage actors of the century, once said of Carney, "Art Carney can play anything, and should."
ZAHN: A lot of folks will miss him.
And we move on now to the growing debate among scientists that the government and insurance companies should consider obesity a disease. and if so, the question is raised, should society pay for it? That could open the door to insurance coverage for treatment and more.
Joining us from Cleveland tonight, Paul Ernsberger, associate professor of nutrition at Case Western University School of Medicine and adviser to the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance.
And from San Francisco tonight, Judith Stern, a professor in the Department of Nutrition and Internal Medicine at the University of California-Davis. She's also the vice president of the American Obesity Association.
The problem with you two, you just don't have enough titles to talk about tonight.
Dr. Stern, I'm going to start with you. You believe that obesity is a disease and you also believe that society in general doesn't do enough to support overweight people, right?
JUDITH STERN, NUTRITION PROFESSOR: Paula, that's absolutely right.
First of all, it is a disease. If you look it up in the medical dictionary, there are three things that make a disease a disease. You have to have recognized causes, recognized signs and symptoms, and changes in the body. Obesity means all three of them. Plus, the IRS, the National Institutes of Health, the Federal Trade Commission, the Institute of Medicine, the National Academy of Science, have all said obesity is a disease, period.
ZAHN: Paul, you do not believe obesity is a disease. Why?
PAUL ERNSBERGER, CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIV.: Well, I think most experts agree that it's not a disease. It's just certain panels, mostly consisting of people who are on weight-loss clinics, who would like to see it as a disease.
It's a risk factor for risk factors, for the most part. It's a risk factor for high blood pressure, for high cholesterol, which in turner are risk factors for heart disease. And it's a risk factor for a disease. We don't, you know, consider, say, something like high cholesterol to be a disease. It's a risk factor.
And so we need to treat risk factors, and we have very effective treatments for these. If we focus on treating obesity, it's going to distract us from treating the resulting diseases, and also in focusing on the healthy lifestyle.
ZAHN: But so, basically -- I think implicit in his argument, Judith, too, is the whole issue of personal responsibility here.
STERN: There is personal responsibility, Paula.
I mean, let me give you an example. If you sit out in the sun, that's the behavior. If you get skin cancer, that's the disease. There is personal responsibility, but it doesn't mean that we don't treat skin cancer. The same thing with smoking and lung cancer.
And obesity is a disease based on the dictionary -- Paul, please go to your Stedman's Dictionary, you'll see it meets all the criteria.
And now the question is, what happens if Medicare/Medicaid declares it a disease? Will -- will insurance companies have to pay for treatment? And I'd say certainly they should.
ZAHN: Paul, that's what I'm having trouble understanding here. You're talking about, you should treat high blood pressure. You should treat diabetes. Well, why not weight, too? Being overweight?
ERNSBERGER: The diseases are what we should treat in medicine, so that's really the question. Should we focus on treating weight or should we focus on treating actual diseases?
And we don't have effective treatments for obesity. The -- we have various drugs and diets and things. We have commercial weight loss centers. None of these things turn an obese person into a thin person.
STERN: Well, for example...
ERNSBERGER: It just doesn't happen.
STERN: Paul, the very obese, people -- like the Pavarottis, OK? They can have gastric surgery, and the 15-year outcome data show after 15 years, they've lost and kept off 100 pounds.
ERNSBERGER: But they're still obese.
STERN: The other diseases that they have, like diabetes and high blood pressure, all these things get better.
ERNSBERGER: Well, they get better when you lose only 5 to 10 percent of your body weight. You've been saying that, Judy, and I say the same thing. We're in agreement. You only need to lose 5 or 10 percent of your body weight. And you're still obese then.
If it's a disease, why does it go away when you lose only 5 to 10 percent of your body weight? You're still obese, but you've reversed these conditions. I think people are going to be very confused. They're going to say, Well, you know, I have to be super-skinny in order to lose my risk factors. That's not true.
STERN: We're not saying you have to be super-skinny, Paul, and I think you're confusing people, because it is, number one a disease. I know people don't like to be diseases -- diseased.
And right now in the United States, what we do is we blame the obese. And they're the last group that we blame.
So let's get on with it...
ERNSBERGER: So you're going to pile another stigma on. You're diseased. That's not very pleasant. It's not very flattering.
ZAHN: Let's cut to the chase here before we lose the two of you, and that's the issue of insurance.
Is it, Paul, your basic problem with this that you don't want insurance companies to pick up the tab here? That it's going to simply be too costly for the nation?
ERNSBERGER: Well, there's 160 million overweight Americans. If we pay for the Weight Watchers memberships for each one of them, that's going to be $32 billion a year. What will we get from that? People will still be obese, they'll still be having the diseases and we'll be spending more money. It's not a good bargain.
STERN: But Paul, wait a minute. We're not saying pay for Weight Watchers membership for everybody.
But let me ask you something. If we -- if there isn't -- if were an effective drug that people could take and lose weight and keep it off, what would be the problem here?
ZAHN: What would be the harm in supporting that, Paul?
ERNSBERGER: That wouldn't be a problem. We're both -- we're both working towards that.
STERN: OK. Great.
ERNSBERGER: We're both working towards a cure, a drug that can treat. We have a drug, Xenical (ph), which is very good because it improve people's health. It doesn't make obese people thin, but it does improve their risk factors. That makes it a good drug.
ZAHN: All right. So there's are a couple things you agreed on tonight. Not a whole lot. But two points that I saw.
Paul Ernsberger, Judith Stern, thank you for joining us with both for your perspectives.
ERNSBERGER: Thank you.
ZAHN: And the debate rages on.
Coming up, our exclusive interview with the Gephardts is next, the Democratic presidential candidate, his wife and their openly gay daughter. They talk quite candidly about what might be at risk here.
And a new report says the big party opportunity for high school students is now the overnight college tour -- sex, drinking and drugs, all in one stop.
And tomorrow, world-class athletes and steroids, and what drives them to artificial means to improve performance, despite the risks to their health.
ZAHN: Democratic presidential candidate Dick Gephardt is running a very personal campaign. When he talks to Americans, he often tells them about his family, including his wife Jane and their openly gay daughter, Chrissy. Well, tonight, Dick Gephardt, his wife, Jane, and Chrissy Gephardt are with us for their first television interview together. Glad to see all of you. Welcome.
REP. DICK GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Good to be with you.
ZAHN: Chrissy, I'd love to start with you this evening. You are playing a pretty big role in your father's campaign. Did you have any hesitation about that at all?
CHRISSY GEPHARDT, DAUGHTER: I did at first, Paula. You know, I was a little hesitant about coming on the campaign in such a public role, but I thought about it, and I thought about the impact that I would be having, and then I also thought about, you know, obviously my dad is going to make the best president, and so it was an easy decision to make after I took about a month to think about it.
ZAHN: Although you knew once you went public with your homosexuality that that could potentially be a lightning rod for criticism. How much did you have to weigh that in your calculation?
C. GEPHARDT: Well, I definitely did. I mean, it was a concern, but I thought that the good outweighed the bad, and the difference that I could make for my father on his campaign and across the country for all gay and lesbian people I thought far outweighed any negative things that could happen.
ZAHN: Jane, tell us a little bit about what your reaction was when you heard from Chrissy for the first time that she was gay?
JANE GEPHARDT, WIFE: Well, you know, Paula, I really wasn't that surprised. There had been some signs that sort of indicated that, you know her marriage was in trouble, and that she was spending an awful lot of time with this young woman classmate of hers. So when she finally did tell me, I was not entirely shocked by the news, I have to be honest.
ZAHN: But as a mother, how concerned were you when she decided to play this active role in the campaign, knowing that you would be pelted with some negative e-mails and letters?
J. GEPHARDT: Well, our first concern, I think, was for Chrissy, you know, that she would not be hurt. You always want to protect your children, because you love them so much, and that was our first concern, is her welfare. It wasn't so much how it would affect the family as much as how it would affect her.
ZAHN: And Representative Gephardt, I know you have said when you were growing up, homosexuality was considered abnormal behavior, but you learn as you go through life. What have you learned from Chrissy?
D. GEPHARDT: Well, I've learned that I love my daughter more than anything in the world. She is our first priority. I didn't want her to be injured in any way, but I've also learned that we haven't gotten to where we need to be in this country with discrimination against gays and lesbians, no more than we have with minorities, and we've got a long way to go. ZAHN: And Chrissy, your father just acknowledged that society has a long way to go, and I know you have spent a lot of time lobbying him when it comes to the issue of gay marriage, which you're in favor of and he's opposed to. How are you doing on the lobbying front? Are you going to change his mind?
C. GEPHARDT: You know, I think I'm actually coming pretty close. I think he understands the issue. He's listening to me, and I think he understands now that it's about equal rights for all people, and I think I'm making headway.
ZAHN: Is she, Representative Gephardt?
D. GEPHARDT: She'll always make headway.
ZAHN: Yeah, but you're not coming clean on whether you're going to go for it or not.
D. GEPHARDT: Well, you know, I think we have got a big agenda in front of us. We have got to get hate crimes legislation passed. I've thought that for a long time. We have got to get an anti- discrimination bill passed for gays and lesbians. And we've got to, you know, recognize in federal law civil unions. We have one state that allows civil unions, and we've got to make sure that people that are in civil unions are treated equally.
So, you know, somewhere down the road, things may change, but right now that's an agenda that I would be happy to try to enact as president.
ZAHN: So your daughter clearly has had an effect on some of the policies you've embraced?
D. GEPHARDT: When you learn, you learn best through your own experience, through your own family. And when things happen in your own life, you understand it more than you ever could before. And we've learned through Chrissy. We love her and her partner, Amy, and we're having a great time in this campaign trying to get these issues across.
ZAHN: And Representative Gephardt, if you don't win Iowa, is it all over for you?
D. GEPHARDT: I'd rather think of it this way, Paula, I'm going to win Iowa, that's for sure, and I'm going to win this nomination and I'm going to beat George Bush, because I have bold but realistic ideas that will solve the major problems that face this country.
ZAHN: And we thank the Gephardt family for joining us tonight.
We're going to hear the details now on a new report that may alarm many of you out there about high school students and what they are doing on those overnight college campus tours.
And on this Veteran's Day, we'll see a very special family reunion for one serviceman back from Iraq. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Many college-bound students visit prospective schools, but a new survey suggests trouble could be waiting on the overnight visits. Students Against Destructive Discussions and Liberty Mutual did this study, which shows nearly 40 percent of visiting students getting involved in some kind of risky behavior, such as drinking drugs or sex.
Joining us from Boston tonight Steven Wallace, chairman and CEO of SADD. He was also a psychologist specializing in adolescents. Welcome, good to see you tonight.
STEPHEN WALLACE, CHAIRMAN, CEO, SADD: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: We're going to break down the study further on the screen -- more that one in four teens reported having sex. An additional 4 percent engaging in other types of sexual activity. One in four teens reported drinking alcohol. More than one in five teens report using drugs. And one and eighteen has reported engaging in all three drinking, drugs and sex.
These numbers surprise you at all?
WALLACE: Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I do think they serve as a wake-up call for parents sending kids off to these largely unsupervised, unchaperoned environments with easy access to alcohol, drugs and sex.
ZAHN: I guess that's my question is.
How different is this really from an unsupervised situation at home?
WALLACE: Well, I think it is different. I think there's a different level of supervision at home in most cases, not in all cases, and there's also a different dynamic with peer pressure. Here we have 16 and 17-year-olds going off and spending weekends with college students who are 18 19, 20, 21 years old and I think there's a different pressure brought to bear on these kinds when they have to make choices about things like alcohol and drugs and sexual behavior.
ZAHN: Did the survey bear out whether some campuses were worse than others?
WALLACE: Well, it really didn't, but, you know anecdotal evidence suggests this problems exists on all kinds of campuses, small, big, urban, rural. I don't think it's particularly any particular campus or any particular part of the country. I talked to one college administrator from upstate New York today, who said sad but true when he read the research results. He indicated that his college campus was sort of the ultimate reality show.
ZAHN: And what did he mean by that?
WALLACE: Well, I think what he meant by that is there's all kinds of behavior going on that could be suggested as inappropriate, and dangerous if not illegal.
ZAHN: Come back to the study itself 3321 high school students participated in the survey.
You really do believe that gives us the relevant bigger picture across the country?
WALLACE: I do, again what we're hearing from young people in high schools and colleges across the country, I do think these results are predictable, it think projectable, and I think they reflect reality of what's happening when young people are going unsupervised off for a weekend. And I think in many cases, mom and dad are really unaware of the types of choices that their kids are going to have to make. And I think that they can go a long way towards preventing problems by sitting down with their kids and talking to them and conveying some expectations and talking about strategies, about how to deal with different choices that they might be confronted with.
ZAHN: But don't you think those are discussions they've already had at home?
WALLACE: Well, they may be. But here again, Paula, we're sending kids off to a different environment, with different forces at play, so I think it's worth sitting down and talking with them again. All our research from SADD and Liberty Mutual Group over four years now suggests that young people who's parents talk with them on regular basis are much less likely to make poor decisions.
ZAHN: Stephen Wallace, appreciate you insight tonight. Appreciate you dropping by.
WALLACE: Thanks, Paula.
ZAHN: And as we continue on this Veterans Day, we're going to show you how one American back from the Gulf gave his children a gift they will never forget.
Furniture can be an expensive investment unless you put it together yourself. If you're handy, Swedish retailer IKEA is one way to go. The furniture maker has targeted the lower end of the market by designing affordable contemporary furniture that comes unassembled. IKEA has 18 stores in the U.S. with designs for more. It plans to add five stores every year, including it's first showrooms in Atlanta, Boston and Phoenix.
ZAHN: Veterans Day may be a solemn occasion for many Americans, but it also brought some unexpected joy today to two young sisters in Eerie, Illinois.
ZAHN (voice-over): A hometown celebration turned into a reunion. 13-year-old Sydney and 9-year-old Taylor Stewart will never forgot. Chad Stewart kept a secret from his daughters for three days while he was back in Eerie, Illinois. He surprised them and showed up at Sydney's school. They had no idea he was back from his duty In Iraq.
STAFF SGT. CHAD STEWART, U.S. MILITARY: I figured I wouldn't make it down the aisle until they tackled me.
ZAHN: They haven't seen him for seven months.
TAYLOR STEWART, DAUGHTER OF CHAD: My gosh, he's home. I couldn't talk or speak. I was like, my god, a dream come true.
ZAHN: The reunion is bittersweet. In just 11 days he will being going back to Iraq to join the 106th Aviation Unit, but for now, his family couldn't be happier.
SYDNEY STEWART, DAUGHTER OF CHAD: We'll all the stuff we can.
T. STEWART: He's here now I'm happy, and I get to hug him in real life. I get to talk to him.
C. STEWART: This is outstanding. It don't get any better than that.
ZAHN: Nice reflection on this veterans day. That wraps it up for all of us here. We appreciate your being with us tonight. We'll be back same time, same place, tomorrow night.
"LARRY KING LIVE" is next with a tribute to Johnny Cash. He'll be talking with his daughter Rosanne Cash.
And tomorrow we are going to be catching up on some professional athletes talking about the use of steroid. Why they use it even though they know it causing damage to their bodies. And we'll bring you up to date on the campaign trail. That wraps it up for all of us here, good night.
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