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INSIGHT

Is the U.S. Subcontracting for Torture?

Aired November 12, 2003 - 17:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST (voice-over): Torture at a deniable distance. The United States government is accused of delivering suspects overseas to countries that interrogate and physically abuse them.

MAHER ARAR, ALLEGED TORTURE VICTIM: I was at the point where physically I was dying.

MANN: One survivor is demanding regress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Hello and welcome.

Torture is illegal in the United States and Washington is signatory to treaties that make it illegal around the world. But could it be that the United States is routinely sidestepping the ban with the help of countries that will do it on behalf of the United States?

From Washington, there are indications that there is a secret policy to do just that, and there is a man who has come forward who says he's a victim.

On our program today, outsourcing and outrage. CNN's Susan Candiotti has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Maher Arar wants the world to know about his ordeal.

ARAR: Talking about torture is very different from experiencing torture.

CANDIOTTI: Why he was held to begin with and how he wound up in Syria is the stuff of intrigue and finger-pointing.

ARAR: I deserve to know the truth. My wife does. And my children do. And the whole Canadian public.

CANDIOTTI: 33-year-old Arar is Syrian born, married with two children, and a naturalized Canadian citizen for more than 12 years. He has a master's degree in telecommunications, has worked for a Boston high tech company, and ran his own consulting business, regularly traveling to the United States and renewing American work permits without incident.

A year ago, September 2002, he left a family vacation in Tunisia on his way home to Canada, when U.S. immigration pulled him aside at JFK Airport.

ARAR: They say it is a routine thing, and they took my fingerprints, of course. They took some pictures. And they kept telling me it's a routine thing, until the FBI showed up.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): Did they ask you any specific questions about anything related to terrorism?

ARAR: Not really, no. No. They asked me about a person I knew, Mr. Abdul Al-Maki (ph).

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Arar says the FBI showed him a 6-year-old apartment lease Al-Maki (ph), a brother of a coworker, witnesses for him as a last minute favor.

ARAR: For them, that was an important document. For me, it was something normal.

CANDIOTTI: After hours of questioning, Arar was shackled and taken to a federal detention center in Brooklyn where agents continued questioning him.

ARAR: And he said we want you to go back to Syria voluntarily. I said no way, I'm not coming back there. They gave me a two or three page document and in that they basically told me that they believe I am a member of al Qaeda terrorist organization.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): What did you think when you read it?

ARAR: I was completely shocked, because during the interrogations, they did not tell me anything about that. And I started crying and crying and crying, and.

CANDIOTTI: Are you thinking about that now?

ARAR: Yes. Then later that day, they took me to the doctor to see a psychiatrist. I was devastated, emotionally and mentally and psychologically, because I couldn't believe it.

They gave me a form, asking me on that form which country I want to be sent to. And I wrote Canada.

CANDIOTTI: But an immigration agent told him he was being sent to Syria.

ARAR: When I heard that, I just started crying. I said to her, I said, "I have concerns regarding torture, and I've told you this repeatedly, that if I ever go back to Syria, I might be tortured, there is a high probability I'll be tortured."

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): In the middle of the night, from a small airport in New Jersey, Arar, shackled and chained, was put on a private government jet.

ARAR: I overheard them talking on the phone, and it seemed like Syria refused to take me directly. They said they reached a decision that I had to fly to Amman.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): So you land in Jordan. And how were you transported in Jordan?

ARAR: They blindfold me. They took me in what felt like a van. And one or two minutes later they just started beating me.

CANDIOTTI: What were you thinking at the time?

ARAR: Well, I was always thinking that my government would intervene, to do something for me.

And then they took me from that place, they put me in a car. They blindfold me again, and they just start beating again and again.

What I remember is I arrived at a place and they took the blindfold off, and I looked at the wall and I saw the picture of the Syrian president. That's when I realized I was in Syria.

CANDIOTTI: Tell me about the cell where they kept you.

ARAR: I don't know that the word cell is descriptive of that place. It's a very tiny cell. It looked exactly like a grave. It had no light in it.

So for me, that was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) process, basically.

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): He was there for 10 months and 10 days, and he says tortured.

ARAR: The cable is about 1 or 2 inches thick. It's that long. And he said open your hands. I opened my right hand. He hit me very strongly. And I was crying all the time.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): They made you sign documents, you have said, when you were in Syria.

ARAR: Basically, the confession, the false confession. They forced me to make a false confession, that I had been to a training camp in Afghanistan.

CANDIOTTI: Why would you sign the documents?

ARAR: I had no choice. I would be beaten again.

CANDIOTTI: Arar was visited by a Canadian consul several times, yet he said he was too frightened to tell them about the torture until he couldn't take it anymore.

ARAR: I mean, I was to the point where basically, I was dying. I had nothing to lose.

CANDIOTTI: The Canadians protested and Syria finally released him last month.

GAR PARTY, FMR. CANADIAN CHIEF OF CONSULAR AFFAIRS: The Syrian government in its own statement subsequent to the release admitted that they had nothing.

CANDIOTTI: Gar Pardy, retired Canadian chief of consular affairs, says the United States initially stonewalled his office for nearly two weeks about Arar's whereabouts. Pardy says he never expected Arar would be sent to Syria.

PARDY: It was an American action to deport to Syria. I mean, this is an action that was taken under American law, and the legality or the legitimacy of that particular action now is under -- will be tested in the American courts, which is quite appropriate.

We always had a sense that there was a terrible injustice at work here.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): Why did the United States put Maher on a government jet to Syria via Jordan? So far, neither Canada nor the United States can fully explain it.

Until they do, Maher's lawyers say both countries will be held accountable for the torture he says he suffered.

(voice-over): U.S. authorities tell CNN it was information provided by Canada that led them to deport Arar to Syria, an argument that doesn't stand up in court, says Steven Watt, lawyer for the Center for Constitutional Rights.

STEVEN WATT, CTR. FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: In this unusual war against terrorism, it's important that individuals are afforded due process, so we can ferret out who exactly are the terrorists amongst us and who are the innocents, like Maher.

Maher was an innocent. He was wrongly caught up and he suffered the consequences.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): How has this changed your life?

ARAR: To brand someone with this word, to brand someone as a terrorist, especially after 9-11, basically is to destroy this person's life. That's exactly what happened to me.

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Susan Candiotti, CNN, Ottawa, Canada.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: We have to take a break. When we come back, the remarkable practice called rendition.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: There is nothing particularly nice about the conditions of U.S. captives in Cuba, but that 650 prisoners are being held incommunicado at Guantanamo Bay is at least known to the American public and independent rights organizations. Their destiny is now in the hands of the U.S. Supreme Court. Attorneys speaking on their behalf will be heard.

Welcome back.

Guantanamo Bay, its prisoners held indefinitely without being charged, is a controversial departure from the conventional U.S. standards of criminal or military justice, but it pales by comparison with a policy known as rendition, a policy designed to get prisoners out of U.S. custody and into the hands of governments with a different way of dealing with their suspects.

Joining us now to talk about that is Mike Baker, a former covert field operations officer for the CIA who now runs Diligence, a firm specializing in information and security analysis and consulting.

Thanks so much for being with us.

What can you tell us about rendition? What is it?

MIKE BAKER, DILIGENCE: Well, its been discussed in the past and its been reported on in the past, not much, but essentially rendition is the practice of rendering a suspect, more often than not a terrorist suspect, to a third country, normally the country of that particular suspect's origin.

MANN: OK. Is torture an accidental and overlooked element of it, or is it the point? Is that why they're sent away?

BAKER: No. It is definitely not the point.

I think the recent situation that you've just reported on with Maher Arar certainly is going to lead some people to conclude that it is the point. It is not.

The concept behind rendition is simply that moving the suspect to a third country, again, usually the origin of that suspect, will produce better cooperation, more information, as a result of normally such things as cultural affinity. There's usually a concept that, take an Arab suspect. The Arab country will have more of an ability to create a relationship with that person.

There may be other reasons for it, including very technical reasons, such as they may have outstanding warrants or convictions, a desire to have that person back in their country.

MANN: Forgive me for interrupting and forgive a bit of skepticism.

What you're suggesting here is that an Egyptian would say more to Egyptian police because they speak his language and presumably could prepare his favorite foods rather than the fact that Egyptian police are infamous in their use of stronger measures than would be permitted in the United States or in most Western countries.

It seems obvious that someone going to a place like that is going to have a really terrible time of it.

BAKER: Well, I have a couple of points to make here.

Everyone, including those countries that have in the past been known or been suspected of more aggressive interrogation techniques, down through the ages, it's been shown, torture, physical abuse during interrogation, produces basically useless information, unreliable information.

So aside from the fact that it's wrong, the United States puts a great deal of pressure in the cases where rendition is being considered on that country regarding its subsequent treatment of the individual.

MANN: So what you're suggesting is that if indeed Maher Arar is telling the truth and he was tortured in Syria, the U.S. government is going to do something about it? The U.S. government has hardly any relations on any matter of consequence with Syria. It kind of surprises me you think that there would be a follow-up to protect the rights of a man that the U.S. government still insists is tied to al Qaeda.

BAKER: Well, I have to confess, I know nothing about Maher's allegations, the voracity of his story or, in fact, his past potential links or what led to this situation.

What I will say, again, is that there is a great deal of dialogue, there's a great deal of consideration that goes on when this sort of action is being considered. And aside from just the issues of morality and the fact that it is wrong, if for no other reason, it's a technical consideration. The information is just not reliable, and everyone is aware of that fact.

Now, in terms of Syria, you're right to point out the difficulties in that relationship. At the same time, as has been noted in the not too distant past, Syria has been cooperative in certain cases regarding the war on terrorism, and that has been important to us.

MANN: Let me ask you a question. I want to quote you something that President Bush said just a few months ago, that "The United States is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating and prosecuting all acts of torture."

To your knowledge, has any suspect ever arrested and rendered to another country ever had any redress on the part of the U.S. government if it learned that they were mistreated? Have you ever heard of a case like this being investigated and punished in a substantive way by the U.S. government?

BAKER: I haven't heard of a case, but then again, I haven't -- I'm not privy to any information regarding any of the cases to begin with. So I'm not in a position right now to.

MANN: Well, part of the point of this is that, of course, none of us are, because most of this happens in secret. It seems like it would be terribly unfair to anyone who is trying to get any kind of action on their behalf, because neither you nor we ever learn about what happened.

BAKER: Well, I think that then will make this case with Maher Arar a very interesting situation to watch. I think that in a case such as this, where he has been released, he's now back in Canada and he has raised these concerns, one thing that we can be sure of is that this will be reviewed. I don't suspect it's going to go away, so this will be an interesting situation to watch, no doubt.

MANN: On that note, Michael Baker, CEO of Diligence, thanks so much for talking with us.

BAKER: Sure, thank you.

MANN: Another break, and then we follow-up on the case.

Stay with us for that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARAR: I am not a terrorist. I am not a member of al Qaeda. And I do not know anyone who belongs to this group.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM DASCHLE, (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: The matter involving the Canadian deserves some consideration as well, some ability on the part of the Congress to determine what the facts are and what response, if any, ought to be achieved on the part of our country as we look at these circumstances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: Maher Arar also wants answers. His lawyers have written a letter to the U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft and U.S. Congressional Intelligence Committees, calling for an investigation.

It reads in part, "There's good reason to believe that the United States knew and waned Arar tortured to obtain information. There's also no basis for the belief that Mr. Arar has any connection to terrorism."

Welcome back.

CNN approached the U.S. Justice Department, but they refused to comment on Arar's situation or even confirm that they had received his attorney's letter.

We're joined now by Barbara Olshansky, assistant legal director at the Center for Constitutional Rights in Washington and one of the attorneys who is representing him.

Thanks so much for being with us.

Where does the case stand now?

BARBARA OLSHANSKY, CTR. FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: We're in the process of writing the complaint that will be filed in federal court on behalf of Mr. Arar alleging the United States role in his unlawful return to Syria. So we're working on that.

In the meantime, we have asked for this public inquiry in the same way that Mr. Arar has been asking for it in Canada, and we've done a Freedom of Information Act request on behalf of Mr. Arar, and we're generally, on behalf of torture victims worldwide, to ascertain what the policy and practices of the United States with regard to rendition and what you were talking about previously on the program.

MANN: Well, let me ask you about that, in fact, because by every account that we have, this is actually a common practice, and it may be one, according to "The Washington Post," that is in fact mandated by secret presidential finding, which is to say that it would have the imprimatur of the White House on it.

Is it possible it really is legal?

OLSHANSKY: No, it is most certainly not possible.

I can imagine -- and now we know for sure -- that this is a policy and practice. That was confirmed, you're right, by a CIA official that spoke to "The Washington Post." You know, it was really to our horror and dismay that we heard confirmation of it.

And there is something that is very clear in this country. Besides the clear immorality, which Michael Baker did attest to previously, it is the law's in place in this country to protect against that.

Besides our own constitutional notions of the due process right to life and liberty, there is the fact that the United States is a signatory to the International Convention Against Torture. We signed and ratified that treaty. We said that we do not condone this, that we will not deport people to countries that are known to practice this, and we specifically enacted a piece of federal legislation and implementing regulations designed to protect people precisely in Mr. Arar's position, so that you can make the claim when the government wants to deport you to a third country, that you should not go there because you fear being tortured.

MANN: Does it change anything if the United States was acting as an agent for Canada? Because there are suggestions that some parts of the Canadian government don't have a lot of information about this, but that perhaps other parts of the Canadian government wanted exactly this result. They wanted him out of Canada and didn't mind that he was on his way to Syria.

OLSHANSKY: Well, I think, you know, we have heard this, and we're obviously investigating that as well, doing the same kind of investigation in Canada.

But no, it doesn't change the United States' obligation under these treaties and federal laws in any way. And, you know, all the more reason, because if we did in fact get information from another country, to investigate it. And what I think in this regard is a hallmark of irresponsibility and unaccountability for this government and this country and what it's been doing from the beginning, which is, you know, acting on uncorroborated information that is not fully investigated and look what the result is. You know, a man that is in detention for almost a year and really severely beaten and tortured and interrogated.

MANN: Now, they did this presumably because they believed, there was some suspicion, that he was associated with al Qaeda. He mentions these suspicions himself in terms of telling us about his interrogation.

Is that relevant here? I mean, what if -- and I say this in theoretical terms; I don't mean to accuse anyone. What if a person in this position really is an al Qaeda terrorist? Wouldn't that justify this in some sense?

OLSHANSKY: You know, it's my personal position and our professional and legal opinion that torture should never be condoned anywhere in the world, ever, and I think that that is the case with, you know, most people that you'll meet on the street.

Our notions of what a democracy is and justice and fairness and equality and due process mean that we never -- this is never justified. Our eighth amendment against cruel and unusual punishment is exactly that. We put it in the Bill of Rights for exactly these reasons.

MANN: What if the -- as we just heard from Mike Baker, who is not involved in this case. They simply thought that the Syrians could speak to a son of Syria in his native language and just talk things out of him that Americans or Canadians couldn't get. Is that a possibility, that they had that expectation?

OLSHANSKY: No. And I can really say that with all certainty and I think that I fundamentally disagree with Mr. Baker on the notion of what rendition is.

I think that he was very deliberately sent to Syria with the knowledge that that country engages in interrogation and torture, and this country has known that. Our own State Department Country Reports for the country of Syria had stated that we know that there are elements in Syria that willingly and regularly and consistently engage in torture.

He was sent there despite his very specific protestation that he might be tortured. He left when he was 16. He never did his service there. He has people that were politically active that did not support the government in Syria. He had very individual reasons to be worried.

MANN: Barbara Olshansky, I'm afraid this conversation could go on for a while. The case certainly will. That's all the time, though, that we have for now.

Thanks for being with us.

OLSHANSKY: Yes. Thank you very much for having me.

MANN: I'm Jonathan Mann. That's INSIGHT for this day.

END

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