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Durst Case Scenario

Aired November 12, 2003 - 11:25   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Robert Durst said that he accidentally shot his elderly neighbor, and he admitted dismembering the body to dispose of it. For jurors, the choice was murder or acquittal. They chose acquittal. Four of those jurors from the Durst case are here with us right now, joining us to talk about the verdict, Joanne Gongora, Robbie Clarac, Donna Trosclair and Chris Lovell are in our New York bureau, and we appreciate you being with us this morning.
I know it's probably been a long while for here you, and thanks for kind of hanging in there.

Joanne, I'm going to have to go ahead and start with you, and say, how do you explain this? Here's a man, who says, I did shoot him, I dismember him, but you, the jury, say, well, that's OK, you can walk.

JOANNE GONGORA, DURST CASE JUROR: Well, let me clear that up, first of all. He did not say that he shot him. He said that the death of Morris Black occurred either by accident or self-defense. He did admit to the dismemberment.

But what we had to look at was, was it intentional? Was it murder, or self-defense or an accident? And the prosecution needed to show to us and prove beyond any reasonable doubt that it was an intentional murder, and they were unable to do that. So that's how we arrived at our verdict of not guilty.

KAGAN: All right, and, Robbie, let me bring you in here. There's no end to the long list of things that are just odd about this case, that you have a very rich man, that he was posing as a mute woman, that -- well, we can go on and on here, but it sounds like the defense did a good job in having the jury focus away from that, and saying, OK, well, the guy's strange, but it doesn't mean he's a murderer.

ROBBIE CLARAC, DURST CASE JUROR: Again, we had to go back. The prosecution put on a good case, also. The prosecution presented everything to us that they had. And with what they had, we still had so much reasonable doubt that we could not convict him.

KAGAN: Chris, as I understand it, you changed your mind a bunch of times, going back and forth trying to figure out if you thought he was guilty or not.

CHRIS LOVELL, DURST CASE JUROR: I had two different color highlighters. I had a color for guilty and a color for not guilty. My scheme was at the end just to add the colors up, and that's it's, and I'll go home. But trust me, it's not that easy. I had green for innocent, and I had orange for guilty.

KAGAN: Was it so simple as at the end of the day you had more green?

LOVELL: Golly, no. It was nothing like that. My first vote was an undecided vote, was what it was. And actually, when we began deliberations, I was pretty close to being right dead in the middle, because I had heard so much evidence for both sides. So until we took the evidence and we looked, that's what we were doing for three days. We were staying busy. We looked at everything the prosecutor showed us, looking for something to convict Robert Durst on, because he did admit he cut that body up. It takes a sick guy to do something like that, but we could find no evidence that it was not self-defense.

KAGAN: Donna, was there a point that this could have ended up as a hung jury?

DONNA TROSCLAIR, DURST CASE JUROR: Yes, sir, there was. We could have come in as a hung jury, because there was a few of us that had to see everything laid out in front of us. We had the prosecution -- we did a timeline, and I actually I think the timeline helped those that were undecided to the very end, and I was one of those. We built this timeline. We first based it on the story that was provided by Robert Durst, then went back and took that timeline and excluded Durst's story and built one on everything that the prosecution had built, and once we got to the point that there was actually nothing that pointed -- no evidence that pointed who's finger was on the gun? Was it self-defense or was it murder? At that point, we all looked at the undecided, worked together and we said there was no proof that it was a murder, and that there was doubt in all of our minds. We had doubt, and we could not convict a man on doubt.

KAGAN: Chris, let's bring you back in here. Explain what it was like during those deliberations. What was it like behind closed doors?

LOVELL: Agonizing. Very emotional. There was a couple times when some tempers flared and we had to calm things down. It was without a doubt the most difficult and agonizing decision that I've ever made in my life. And now that it's all said and done, there is no doubt that I did not make the right decision. I know that I made the right decision based upon the evidence that was presented on me. And I didn't base my evidence or what I thought he may or may not have done, I based my decision on what evidence that they gave me.

KAGAN: Joanne, I want to ask you about something in terms of timeline. There was a point where the judge, Judge Chris, I think, got very frustrated with this jury, saying that you were going to restaurants you shouldn't, too many smoking breaks, you really weren't doing your job. And then after that little talk to, boom, there's a verdict saying not guilty. Did that have anything to do with bringing this to an end?

GONGORA: No, we had all said in the deliberation room that we will not be pressured by anyone to come to a hasty verdict. We had taken several votes and the judge -- some of those stories -- excuse me. Some of those stories were absolutely not true. I think that some of the press that were waiting outside of the courtroom did some fictitious writing there. No one was smoking out of the window. But we were not going to be pressured. It just took a joint effort of getting the undecided -- and we didn't pressure anyone, but getting the undecided people to come to grips with the reasonable doubt, and you know, taking that time to live with it in their heart. And we gave all of the jurors that time to let it all settle in and sink in, and everyone, I feel, is very comfortable with the verdict.

KAGAN: And, Robbie, I've have the last question to you, will you ever forget the look on Robert Durst's face when he heard the not guilty verdict?

CLARAC: I will not forget that look, never. For him, it was just such a sigh of relief.

KAGAN: Did he talk to you afterward?

CLARAC: No.

KAGAN: He didn't talk to the jury?

CLARAC: No.

GONGORA: They took him away. They took him back to the jail.

CLARAC: We did talk to all of the lawyers though, afterwards.

KAGAN: And what was your main message for the prosecution and for the defense?

CLARAC: I think our main message to the prosecution was that they did an absolutely bang up job and that they were awesome, but with the facts that they had to give to us, it just wasn't enough.

KAGAN: All right. Thanks for sharing the insight and letting us know what took place as you came up with this not guilty verdict in the Robert Durst case. Jonanna Gongora, Robbie Clarac, Donna Trosclair and Chris Lovell, appreciate it. Have a safe trip back to Texas. Thank you so much.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 12, 2003 - 11:25   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Robert Durst said that he accidentally shot his elderly neighbor, and he admitted dismembering the body to dispose of it. For jurors, the choice was murder or acquittal. They chose acquittal. Four of those jurors from the Durst case are here with us right now, joining us to talk about the verdict, Joanne Gongora, Robbie Clarac, Donna Trosclair and Chris Lovell are in our New York bureau, and we appreciate you being with us this morning.
I know it's probably been a long while for here you, and thanks for kind of hanging in there.

Joanne, I'm going to have to go ahead and start with you, and say, how do you explain this? Here's a man, who says, I did shoot him, I dismember him, but you, the jury, say, well, that's OK, you can walk.

JOANNE GONGORA, DURST CASE JUROR: Well, let me clear that up, first of all. He did not say that he shot him. He said that the death of Morris Black occurred either by accident or self-defense. He did admit to the dismemberment.

But what we had to look at was, was it intentional? Was it murder, or self-defense or an accident? And the prosecution needed to show to us and prove beyond any reasonable doubt that it was an intentional murder, and they were unable to do that. So that's how we arrived at our verdict of not guilty.

KAGAN: All right, and, Robbie, let me bring you in here. There's no end to the long list of things that are just odd about this case, that you have a very rich man, that he was posing as a mute woman, that -- well, we can go on and on here, but it sounds like the defense did a good job in having the jury focus away from that, and saying, OK, well, the guy's strange, but it doesn't mean he's a murderer.

ROBBIE CLARAC, DURST CASE JUROR: Again, we had to go back. The prosecution put on a good case, also. The prosecution presented everything to us that they had. And with what they had, we still had so much reasonable doubt that we could not convict him.

KAGAN: Chris, as I understand it, you changed your mind a bunch of times, going back and forth trying to figure out if you thought he was guilty or not.

CHRIS LOVELL, DURST CASE JUROR: I had two different color highlighters. I had a color for guilty and a color for not guilty. My scheme was at the end just to add the colors up, and that's it's, and I'll go home. But trust me, it's not that easy. I had green for innocent, and I had orange for guilty.

KAGAN: Was it so simple as at the end of the day you had more green?

LOVELL: Golly, no. It was nothing like that. My first vote was an undecided vote, was what it was. And actually, when we began deliberations, I was pretty close to being right dead in the middle, because I had heard so much evidence for both sides. So until we took the evidence and we looked, that's what we were doing for three days. We were staying busy. We looked at everything the prosecutor showed us, looking for something to convict Robert Durst on, because he did admit he cut that body up. It takes a sick guy to do something like that, but we could find no evidence that it was not self-defense.

KAGAN: Donna, was there a point that this could have ended up as a hung jury?

DONNA TROSCLAIR, DURST CASE JUROR: Yes, sir, there was. We could have come in as a hung jury, because there was a few of us that had to see everything laid out in front of us. We had the prosecution -- we did a timeline, and I actually I think the timeline helped those that were undecided to the very end, and I was one of those. We built this timeline. We first based it on the story that was provided by Robert Durst, then went back and took that timeline and excluded Durst's story and built one on everything that the prosecution had built, and once we got to the point that there was actually nothing that pointed -- no evidence that pointed who's finger was on the gun? Was it self-defense or was it murder? At that point, we all looked at the undecided, worked together and we said there was no proof that it was a murder, and that there was doubt in all of our minds. We had doubt, and we could not convict a man on doubt.

KAGAN: Chris, let's bring you back in here. Explain what it was like during those deliberations. What was it like behind closed doors?

LOVELL: Agonizing. Very emotional. There was a couple times when some tempers flared and we had to calm things down. It was without a doubt the most difficult and agonizing decision that I've ever made in my life. And now that it's all said and done, there is no doubt that I did not make the right decision. I know that I made the right decision based upon the evidence that was presented on me. And I didn't base my evidence or what I thought he may or may not have done, I based my decision on what evidence that they gave me.

KAGAN: Joanne, I want to ask you about something in terms of timeline. There was a point where the judge, Judge Chris, I think, got very frustrated with this jury, saying that you were going to restaurants you shouldn't, too many smoking breaks, you really weren't doing your job. And then after that little talk to, boom, there's a verdict saying not guilty. Did that have anything to do with bringing this to an end?

GONGORA: No, we had all said in the deliberation room that we will not be pressured by anyone to come to a hasty verdict. We had taken several votes and the judge -- some of those stories -- excuse me. Some of those stories were absolutely not true. I think that some of the press that were waiting outside of the courtroom did some fictitious writing there. No one was smoking out of the window. But we were not going to be pressured. It just took a joint effort of getting the undecided -- and we didn't pressure anyone, but getting the undecided people to come to grips with the reasonable doubt, and you know, taking that time to live with it in their heart. And we gave all of the jurors that time to let it all settle in and sink in, and everyone, I feel, is very comfortable with the verdict.

KAGAN: And, Robbie, I've have the last question to you, will you ever forget the look on Robert Durst's face when he heard the not guilty verdict?

CLARAC: I will not forget that look, never. For him, it was just such a sigh of relief.

KAGAN: Did he talk to you afterward?

CLARAC: No.

KAGAN: He didn't talk to the jury?

CLARAC: No.

GONGORA: They took him away. They took him back to the jail.

CLARAC: We did talk to all of the lawyers though, afterwards.

KAGAN: And what was your main message for the prosecution and for the defense?

CLARAC: I think our main message to the prosecution was that they did an absolutely bang up job and that they were awesome, but with the facts that they had to give to us, it just wasn't enough.

KAGAN: All right. Thanks for sharing the insight and letting us know what took place as you came up with this not guilty verdict in the Robert Durst case. Jonanna Gongora, Robbie Clarac, Donna Trosclair and Chris Lovell, appreciate it. Have a safe trip back to Texas. Thank you so much.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com