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American Morning
Latest on Story of Military Mother Who Defied Orders
Aired November 13, 2003 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, now the latest on the story of a military mother who defied orders to return to Iraq for fear of losing custody of her seven children. Simone Holcomb, a medic in the Army National Guard, has been recommended for honorable discharge subject to her commander's approval. But Specialist Holcomb has not yet legally responded to the Army's recommendation.
Giorgio Ra'shaad is Holcomb's attorney and he joins us from Colorado Springs this morning.
It's nice to see you, Mr. Ra'shaad.
Thanks for joining us.
GIORGIO RA'SHAAD, SIMONE HOLCOMB'S ATTORNEY: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: This is a case that's kind of getting more confusing by the moment. So let's start at the very beginning. You thought there was actually a deal last night. There was a phone call then and an e- mail.
Where does it all stand right now?
RA'SHAAD: Well, what took place was at about 2:00 a.m. Monday there was a telephone call from the command section in Iraq. And they advised her of her rights under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, informed her that it was their opinion that she was in violation of Article 90 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, willfully disobeying a lawful order of a superior commissioned officer. And at that time...
O'BRIEN: So I'm going to jump in right there, for those of us who don't know what article 19 -- what will that mean exactly?
RA'SHAAD: That means that the command believes that they gave her an order, a lawful order to return and that she willfully did not return.
O'BRIEN: OK.
RA'SHAAD: And that she's AWOL. So then they imposed what we call Article 15, non-judicial punishment over the telephone. And I don't have a precedent for that but that's what they did.
O'BRIEN: OK, I'm going to ask you to back up again. Article 15 means specifically what? RA'SHAAD: An Article 15 means that a commander can punish you without you being court-martialed. But that doesn't preclude them from continuing on to court martial. So you can be punished for the same activity twice.
O'BRIEN: What kind of punishment is she looking at under Article 15?
RA'SHAAD: Well, you could be reduced in rank and you could have your pay taken. But since there was also a reading of rights, you could still be carried forward to court martial proceedings.
O'BRIEN: So as of this morning...
RA'SHAAD: And then we had another...
O'BRIEN: I'm sorry. Keep going, because I was going to ask you where we stand as of this morning.
RA'SHAAD: Well, we had another development last night. Last night the command section in Iraq e-mailed a negative letter of counseling, which I've faxed off to your office, indicating now that they are processing her for immediate discharge under general, not under honorable conditions, but under general conditions, under Army Regulation 6235.
O'BRIEN: OK, so with all these numbers and regulations, I guess the bottom line is what's your client going to do and what does she face right now? Could she be court-martialed as it stands right now? Is she facing a general discharge?
RA'SHAAD: Yes, according to the command section in Iraq, it's their intention to proceed with a general discharge and any further action that they could do leading up to a court martial, it's up to that command section. Now, this is in contravention of what we've been working with with the National Guard Bureau and the Department of the Army. We thought we had something in place, but the commander in Iraq has been doing something that was inconsistent with what everyone was working on.
O'BRIEN: So it seems like maybe all the different sides are not exactly necessarily talking to each other. The documents -- and we got them, you faxed them to my office -- say that, it seems like they're highlighting that the issue really is that there is no family plan in place. They don't mention anything about the legal dispute over custody of the children, which is why Ms. Holcomb is staying at home with her kids. They basically said she didn't have a plan in place. Her mother-in-law, who was supposed to watch all the kids when she went overseas with her husband, no longer can do it. So she needs a family plan or she needs to get over to Iraq.
RA'SHAAD: Essentially what they're saying is, OK, you had a family plan and your mother is gone. So we would like you to miraculously come up with some relatives who can take care of seven kids. And if you don't have relatives who can do that, make up some and get back to Iraq. O'BRIEN: But wasn't the original issue over whether a judge said she couldn't leave town because of this custody dispute? Has the custody dispute now been resolved and technically, legally, she could leave if she wanted to?
RA'SHAAD: No, she and Vaughn have, actually have custody of the two. That is resolved. And, of course, there are five other children. So the effect of her complying with this Army order to return to Iraq is even if two of the children end up with their birth mother, five kids will be sitting on the airport tarmac waving good- bye to mommy and then they'll end up in the Department of Social Services, because there's no one to care for them
When they say you are ordered to develop a family care plan, they're telling her you must materialize a relative that can take care of seven kids and she just doesn't have that.
O'BRIEN: Giorgio Ra'shaad, it's a more and more complicated story. We'll, of course, continue to check in with you as this thing develops.
Thanks so much.
We certainly appreciate it.
We should also mention that AMERICAN MORNING asked for a representative from Fort Carson and CENTCOM to talk with us this morning and they have not returned our calls on this story.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 13, 2003 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, now the latest on the story of a military mother who defied orders to return to Iraq for fear of losing custody of her seven children. Simone Holcomb, a medic in the Army National Guard, has been recommended for honorable discharge subject to her commander's approval. But Specialist Holcomb has not yet legally responded to the Army's recommendation.
Giorgio Ra'shaad is Holcomb's attorney and he joins us from Colorado Springs this morning.
It's nice to see you, Mr. Ra'shaad.
Thanks for joining us.
GIORGIO RA'SHAAD, SIMONE HOLCOMB'S ATTORNEY: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: This is a case that's kind of getting more confusing by the moment. So let's start at the very beginning. You thought there was actually a deal last night. There was a phone call then and an e- mail.
Where does it all stand right now?
RA'SHAAD: Well, what took place was at about 2:00 a.m. Monday there was a telephone call from the command section in Iraq. And they advised her of her rights under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, informed her that it was their opinion that she was in violation of Article 90 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, willfully disobeying a lawful order of a superior commissioned officer. And at that time...
O'BRIEN: So I'm going to jump in right there, for those of us who don't know what article 19 -- what will that mean exactly?
RA'SHAAD: That means that the command believes that they gave her an order, a lawful order to return and that she willfully did not return.
O'BRIEN: OK.
RA'SHAAD: And that she's AWOL. So then they imposed what we call Article 15, non-judicial punishment over the telephone. And I don't have a precedent for that but that's what they did.
O'BRIEN: OK, I'm going to ask you to back up again. Article 15 means specifically what? RA'SHAAD: An Article 15 means that a commander can punish you without you being court-martialed. But that doesn't preclude them from continuing on to court martial. So you can be punished for the same activity twice.
O'BRIEN: What kind of punishment is she looking at under Article 15?
RA'SHAAD: Well, you could be reduced in rank and you could have your pay taken. But since there was also a reading of rights, you could still be carried forward to court martial proceedings.
O'BRIEN: So as of this morning...
RA'SHAAD: And then we had another...
O'BRIEN: I'm sorry. Keep going, because I was going to ask you where we stand as of this morning.
RA'SHAAD: Well, we had another development last night. Last night the command section in Iraq e-mailed a negative letter of counseling, which I've faxed off to your office, indicating now that they are processing her for immediate discharge under general, not under honorable conditions, but under general conditions, under Army Regulation 6235.
O'BRIEN: OK, so with all these numbers and regulations, I guess the bottom line is what's your client going to do and what does she face right now? Could she be court-martialed as it stands right now? Is she facing a general discharge?
RA'SHAAD: Yes, according to the command section in Iraq, it's their intention to proceed with a general discharge and any further action that they could do leading up to a court martial, it's up to that command section. Now, this is in contravention of what we've been working with with the National Guard Bureau and the Department of the Army. We thought we had something in place, but the commander in Iraq has been doing something that was inconsistent with what everyone was working on.
O'BRIEN: So it seems like maybe all the different sides are not exactly necessarily talking to each other. The documents -- and we got them, you faxed them to my office -- say that, it seems like they're highlighting that the issue really is that there is no family plan in place. They don't mention anything about the legal dispute over custody of the children, which is why Ms. Holcomb is staying at home with her kids. They basically said she didn't have a plan in place. Her mother-in-law, who was supposed to watch all the kids when she went overseas with her husband, no longer can do it. So she needs a family plan or she needs to get over to Iraq.
RA'SHAAD: Essentially what they're saying is, OK, you had a family plan and your mother is gone. So we would like you to miraculously come up with some relatives who can take care of seven kids. And if you don't have relatives who can do that, make up some and get back to Iraq. O'BRIEN: But wasn't the original issue over whether a judge said she couldn't leave town because of this custody dispute? Has the custody dispute now been resolved and technically, legally, she could leave if she wanted to?
RA'SHAAD: No, she and Vaughn have, actually have custody of the two. That is resolved. And, of course, there are five other children. So the effect of her complying with this Army order to return to Iraq is even if two of the children end up with their birth mother, five kids will be sitting on the airport tarmac waving good- bye to mommy and then they'll end up in the Department of Social Services, because there's no one to care for them
When they say you are ordered to develop a family care plan, they're telling her you must materialize a relative that can take care of seven kids and she just doesn't have that.
O'BRIEN: Giorgio Ra'shaad, it's a more and more complicated story. We'll, of course, continue to check in with you as this thing develops.
Thanks so much.
We certainly appreciate it.
We should also mention that AMERICAN MORNING asked for a representative from Fort Carson and CENTCOM to talk with us this morning and they have not returned our calls on this story.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
