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CNN Live At Daybreak

Twisted Wreckage of America's Worst Loss in Post-War Iraq

Aired November 17, 2003 - 05:29   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Turning our attention now to Iraq, U.S. troops let loose a massive offensive around Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit. It included air and ground attacks against targets identified as insurgents hostile to coalition forces. Some strikes destroyed several buildings, including homes. The military moves come as the Army tries to figure out why two of its Black Hawk helicopters collided and crashed in the northern city of Mosul on Saturday. That killed 17 soldiers.
CNN's Matthew Chance brings us up to date on that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The twisted wreckage of America's worst loss in post-war Iraq. Troops seal off the residential area of western Mosul, where the two Black Hawks came down. Efforts have focused on clearing away debris and the bodies. Forensics have yet to show conclusively what caused this.

MAJ. TREY CATE, 101ST AIRBORNE DIVISION: We're going to do a thorough investigation because if this either involved ground fire or it was a safety related accident, then we will make sure we take precautions to see that it doesn't happen again.

CHANCE: In the moments after the choppers collided, both slammed into the buildings of this densely populated suburb. One hit a school and a house, where Hassan al-Kafav (ph) was sitting with his family. "It's a miracle," he told us, "that no one in my home was killed. I am against these attacks," he says, "because the Americans who died were humans, too. But when I say that, some of the men standing here get very angry. The don't like it."

On flat bed trucks, the Black Hawks, draped and hidden from view, are driven from the crash site. In three weeks, five U.S. helicopters have been lost in Iraq and the human toll continues to mount.

(on camera): There is a growing perception among many Iraqis that the occupying forces are being dealt a serious blow. Despite attempts to crack down on the insurgents, this latest incident may well stiffen their resolve.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Mosul, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And as you heard Matthew say, U.S. forces are trying to stop the guerrillas by that big show of force. But is it working? Ken Pollack is with the Brookings Institution and he's an expert on Iraq. And he's in Baghdad this morning.

Good morning, Ken.

KENNETH POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Good morning, Carol.

Good to see you.

COSTELLO: How is Baghdad, now that you've just arrived?

POLLACK: Noisy at the moment. Yes, noisy at the moment. There's a massive traffic jam behind me, which is nothing new for Baghdad.

COSTELLO: No, certainly not.

You know, Ken, on Sunday night, coalition forces launched a laser guided missile against a suspected militant training camp. They bombed the house of a former Iraqi official.

Is this show of force effective?

POLLACK: Well, I think it may be effective in one sense. What the military is trying to do is they've got intelligence about regime loyalists who are launching attacks on U.S. forces and they're trying to use everything in their arsenal to go after them. I think they're also trying to, by using these enormous amounts of force, hoping to deter other would be resistance fighters from coming after the United States, to give them a little bit of pause.

But what we always have to remember is that we're now waging a guerilla war. And what history has proven time and again is that you don't win a guerilla war militarily, no matter how good your strategy, no matter how good your weapons. It's just never enough to do the job by itself. The only way to win a guerilla war is to win it politically.

COSTELLO: Yes, you say that, but they're showing this great show of military force and while they may be bombing facilities, there are no enemies inside those facilities, so no guerrillas are being killed this way.

POLLACK: Right. Well, this, of course, is the problem, is that the military, the U.S. military here in Iraq, can really only address the military side of the equation. They do try to help out with the political. There are lots of soldiers here in Iraq who are trying to work with Iraqis on a day to day basis to help them better their lives in hopes that that will turn the hearts and minds campaign around and move it in the direction of the United States.

But as you're pointing out, the military has only so many tools at its disposal. Most of its tools are destructive tools and they are frustrated. They want to deal with this insurgency and so they're using the only tools that are at their disposal. COSTELLO: So the only way you say to win is politically and supposedly there's going to be a brand new Iraqi government in place by, what, 2005? The U.S. military will still be there, but it will be there as guests of the Iraqi government.

But will the U.S. still remain in power despite the show of words, let's say?

POLLACK: Well, this, of course, is one of the big questions out there. You're absolutely right, Carol, the U.S. has now embraced this idea of a transition, moving over and giving over authority to the Iraqi people. But the expectation is that even after the Iraqis assume sovereignty, there will be a residual U.S. presence because only the U.S. can really keep a lid on things here.

That's something that you hear from Iraqis constantly. Most of them really would professor that the United States weren't here. But by the same token, they all seem to recognize that if the U.S. weren't here, things would probably devolve very quickly into a civil war. And because they are so frightened of that, they're willing to live with the U.S. presence probably even beyond the transfer of power first to a transitional government and then to a permanent government.

COSTELLO: How difficult will it be for Iraq to come up with a government that soon?

POLLACK: Well, this, of course, is one of the key issues out there. And the real fear on the part of many secular liberals here in Iraq is that the U.S. is moving too quickly and it's not going to give the Iraqis enough time to organize political parties. Right now, the people who are best organized are the tribal leaders, some former Baathists and religious leaders. And they aren't necessarily representative of the entire people. And what many of the Iraqis fear is that because they are the best organized, they will nevertheless be able to take power soonest in this more rapid transition.

COSTELLO: There's no, there's no Karzai like figure in Iraq, is there? There's no single person who has enough charisma to maybe get people in line within the Iraqi Governing Council, is there?

POLLACK: Unfortunately not at the moment. And that's the kind of thing which, Carol, over time, someone like that might emerge. But, of course, this is the point to those Iraqis who are concerned about this. They're saying it's going to take time. Saddam Hussein killed every single person in Iraq who had that kind of charisma, who had that kind of following, because, of course, they were a threat to him.

Now that Saddam is gone, it is going to take time for some other leader to emerge from the people who can really capture the attention of all Iraqis and bring them together under his banner.

COSTELLO: And, Ken, will...

POLLACK: And that person just doesn't exist yet.

COSTELLO: Ken, we're spinning such a negative picture. Give us something positive. Is this a step in the right direction?

POLLACK: Certainly. I think that it is a step in the right direction to move beyond the current Governing Council, which doesn't have very much appeal for Iraqis. And beyond that, there is a lot of positive going on here, Carol. It's just a mistake to think that this place is nothing but explosions and insurgent attacks. In point of fact, most Iraqis are able to live their lives in a fairly reasonable fashion. Things are getting back on track. Power is coming on. As I said, the U.S. military is out there trying to help people with their day to day lives.

It's not normalcy yet, but it's moving there.

COSTELLO: All right, Ken Pollack live from Baghdad.

Many thanks for your analysis this morning.

POLLACK: Thank you, Carol.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired November 17, 2003 - 05:29   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Turning our attention now to Iraq, U.S. troops let loose a massive offensive around Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit. It included air and ground attacks against targets identified as insurgents hostile to coalition forces. Some strikes destroyed several buildings, including homes. The military moves come as the Army tries to figure out why two of its Black Hawk helicopters collided and crashed in the northern city of Mosul on Saturday. That killed 17 soldiers.
CNN's Matthew Chance brings us up to date on that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The twisted wreckage of America's worst loss in post-war Iraq. Troops seal off the residential area of western Mosul, where the two Black Hawks came down. Efforts have focused on clearing away debris and the bodies. Forensics have yet to show conclusively what caused this.

MAJ. TREY CATE, 101ST AIRBORNE DIVISION: We're going to do a thorough investigation because if this either involved ground fire or it was a safety related accident, then we will make sure we take precautions to see that it doesn't happen again.

CHANCE: In the moments after the choppers collided, both slammed into the buildings of this densely populated suburb. One hit a school and a house, where Hassan al-Kafav (ph) was sitting with his family. "It's a miracle," he told us, "that no one in my home was killed. I am against these attacks," he says, "because the Americans who died were humans, too. But when I say that, some of the men standing here get very angry. The don't like it."

On flat bed trucks, the Black Hawks, draped and hidden from view, are driven from the crash site. In three weeks, five U.S. helicopters have been lost in Iraq and the human toll continues to mount.

(on camera): There is a growing perception among many Iraqis that the occupying forces are being dealt a serious blow. Despite attempts to crack down on the insurgents, this latest incident may well stiffen their resolve.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Mosul, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And as you heard Matthew say, U.S. forces are trying to stop the guerrillas by that big show of force. But is it working? Ken Pollack is with the Brookings Institution and he's an expert on Iraq. And he's in Baghdad this morning.

Good morning, Ken.

KENNETH POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Good morning, Carol.

Good to see you.

COSTELLO: How is Baghdad, now that you've just arrived?

POLLACK: Noisy at the moment. Yes, noisy at the moment. There's a massive traffic jam behind me, which is nothing new for Baghdad.

COSTELLO: No, certainly not.

You know, Ken, on Sunday night, coalition forces launched a laser guided missile against a suspected militant training camp. They bombed the house of a former Iraqi official.

Is this show of force effective?

POLLACK: Well, I think it may be effective in one sense. What the military is trying to do is they've got intelligence about regime loyalists who are launching attacks on U.S. forces and they're trying to use everything in their arsenal to go after them. I think they're also trying to, by using these enormous amounts of force, hoping to deter other would be resistance fighters from coming after the United States, to give them a little bit of pause.

But what we always have to remember is that we're now waging a guerilla war. And what history has proven time and again is that you don't win a guerilla war militarily, no matter how good your strategy, no matter how good your weapons. It's just never enough to do the job by itself. The only way to win a guerilla war is to win it politically.

COSTELLO: Yes, you say that, but they're showing this great show of military force and while they may be bombing facilities, there are no enemies inside those facilities, so no guerrillas are being killed this way.

POLLACK: Right. Well, this, of course, is the problem, is that the military, the U.S. military here in Iraq, can really only address the military side of the equation. They do try to help out with the political. There are lots of soldiers here in Iraq who are trying to work with Iraqis on a day to day basis to help them better their lives in hopes that that will turn the hearts and minds campaign around and move it in the direction of the United States.

But as you're pointing out, the military has only so many tools at its disposal. Most of its tools are destructive tools and they are frustrated. They want to deal with this insurgency and so they're using the only tools that are at their disposal. COSTELLO: So the only way you say to win is politically and supposedly there's going to be a brand new Iraqi government in place by, what, 2005? The U.S. military will still be there, but it will be there as guests of the Iraqi government.

But will the U.S. still remain in power despite the show of words, let's say?

POLLACK: Well, this, of course, is one of the big questions out there. You're absolutely right, Carol, the U.S. has now embraced this idea of a transition, moving over and giving over authority to the Iraqi people. But the expectation is that even after the Iraqis assume sovereignty, there will be a residual U.S. presence because only the U.S. can really keep a lid on things here.

That's something that you hear from Iraqis constantly. Most of them really would professor that the United States weren't here. But by the same token, they all seem to recognize that if the U.S. weren't here, things would probably devolve very quickly into a civil war. And because they are so frightened of that, they're willing to live with the U.S. presence probably even beyond the transfer of power first to a transitional government and then to a permanent government.

COSTELLO: How difficult will it be for Iraq to come up with a government that soon?

POLLACK: Well, this, of course, is one of the key issues out there. And the real fear on the part of many secular liberals here in Iraq is that the U.S. is moving too quickly and it's not going to give the Iraqis enough time to organize political parties. Right now, the people who are best organized are the tribal leaders, some former Baathists and religious leaders. And they aren't necessarily representative of the entire people. And what many of the Iraqis fear is that because they are the best organized, they will nevertheless be able to take power soonest in this more rapid transition.

COSTELLO: There's no, there's no Karzai like figure in Iraq, is there? There's no single person who has enough charisma to maybe get people in line within the Iraqi Governing Council, is there?

POLLACK: Unfortunately not at the moment. And that's the kind of thing which, Carol, over time, someone like that might emerge. But, of course, this is the point to those Iraqis who are concerned about this. They're saying it's going to take time. Saddam Hussein killed every single person in Iraq who had that kind of charisma, who had that kind of following, because, of course, they were a threat to him.

Now that Saddam is gone, it is going to take time for some other leader to emerge from the people who can really capture the attention of all Iraqis and bring them together under his banner.

COSTELLO: And, Ken, will...

POLLACK: And that person just doesn't exist yet.

COSTELLO: Ken, we're spinning such a negative picture. Give us something positive. Is this a step in the right direction?

POLLACK: Certainly. I think that it is a step in the right direction to move beyond the current Governing Council, which doesn't have very much appeal for Iraqis. And beyond that, there is a lot of positive going on here, Carol. It's just a mistake to think that this place is nothing but explosions and insurgent attacks. In point of fact, most Iraqis are able to live their lives in a fairly reasonable fashion. Things are getting back on track. Power is coming on. As I said, the U.S. military is out there trying to help people with their day to day lives.

It's not normalcy yet, but it's moving there.

COSTELLO: All right, Ken Pollack live from Baghdad.

Many thanks for your analysis this morning.

POLLACK: Thank you, Carol.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com