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Dean Wants to Roll Back Business Deregulation; Authorities Issue Warrant for Jackson's Arrest; 'Broken Borders'

Aired November 19, 2003 - 18:00   ET


ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, November 19. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Good evening. Tonight the frontrunner in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination says he wants to roll back a quarter of a century of business deregulation in this country.

Howard Dean's call for re-regulation is the boldest and riskiest political initiative of this campaign.

The Michael Jackson freak show has turned serious. Authorities have issued an arrest warrant for the pop singer on multiple counts of child molestation. David Mattingly will report from Santa Barbara, California.

And tonight in our special report, "Broken Borders," just how broken? Two hundred thousand illegal aliens enter this country each year through a single national park in Arizona.

And your government at work. A federal program to provide training for unemployed Americans is bogged down in a swamp of red tape, leaving jobless workers stranded and desperate.

First tonight, President Bush spent his second day in London where he invoked the lessons of the last century to justify a 21st century war against Saddam Hussein.

President Bush compared Saddam Hussein with dictators of the Nazi and Communist eras. In his speech, the president reminded his British audience that the United States and Britain have a long and successful history of confronting the enemies of democracy. Senior White House correspondent John King is with the president in London and joins me now -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And along the way, Lou, the president also confronting his critics on this day here in Great Britain, the day of great amount of ceremony and celebration, also a day of a fair amount of controversy.

Tonight at Buckingham Palace, an official state banquet, a great deal of splendor there. Mr. Bush and Queen Elizabeth exchanging toasts, both highlighting the historic special relationship between the United States and Great Britain.

All that part of the upbeat part of the day for this president. Mr. Bush also delivering a keynote speech here today, in which he said his critics are wrong when they say that he deliberately tries to avoid or short-circuit international institutions like the United Nations.

But Mr. Bush did say that there is a legitimate use of force at a time when diplomacy must come to an end, and Mr. Bush, perhaps with France and Germany in mind, said some of his critics in Europe, when it comes to the use of force and the war in Iraq, perhaps ignoring their own lessons of history.


GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Because European countries now resolve differences through negotiation and consensus, there is sometimes an assumption that the entire world functions in the same way.

But let us never forget how Europe's unity was achieved. By allied armies of liberation and NATO armies of defense.


KING: Mr. Bush again defending his decision to go to war in Iraq. And he said even those who disagree with him should join him now in winning the peace in post-war Iraq and maintaining a coalition force in Iraq until a new Iraqi government is up, running and stable.

Now, a great deal of security around this visit. Modest protests on the streets of London today. Some skirmishes between the protesters and police. The main event from a security and a protest standpoint is due to come tomorrow. Organizers of an anti-war march say they expect as many as 100,000 people to join their cause.

Mr. Bush also sits down for strategy discussions with Prime Minister Tony Blair today, a man Mr. Bush today, Lou, called a leader with a great deal of backbone when times get tough -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, thank you very much. John King, reporting from London.

This broadcast has been among those that have strongly criticized the Pentagon and the Army for not providing troops in Iraq with the latest body armor.

We have also reported that Army Humvees are not armored and offer almost no protection to our troops against hostile fire. The Army today admitted it will not have enough armored Humvees to protect our soldiers in Iraq for another two years.

Key members of Congress today told the Army that that is not only outrageous but totally unacceptable. Our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre, who has been reporting on this story for some time, has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The Army figured that after defeating Saddam Hussein's forces on the battle field, it could safely patrol the country in unarmored Humvees. It was a deadly miscalculation.

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R-VA), ARMED SERVICES CMTE CHMN: I say it is an error made in planning to send those troops to forward deployed regions, and the conflict in Iraq particularly, without the adequate numbers of body armor and vehicles.

MCINTYRE: The Army admits it's embroiled in a guerrilla war in Iraq it didn't foresee, and now it's scrambling to replace the standard "thin-skinned" Humvees with armored models that can withstand small arms fire, though not rocket-propelled grenades.

Members of Congress are fuming.

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D-MA), ARMED SERVICES CMTE: So many of these young soldiers are being -- lives are at risk traveling in these light-skinned humvees. Three out of the last four soldiers killed in Massachusetts were in these light-skinned Humvees.

MCINTYRE: Having already scoured the world for armored Humvees to ship to Iraq, the Army is now stepping up production of new ones. It will take two more years at the current production rate to get the 3,500 humvees needed.

LES BROWNLEE, ACTING SECRETARY OF THE ARMY: It could be as late as the summer of '05, before we would have them all.

WARNER: I don't think we can accept an '05 deadline given the...

BROWNLEE: Well, what we are doing, sir, because it is not acceptable to us either, is examining armor that could be placed on the current humvee.

MCINTYRE: Bolt-on armor could be available by this summer. Critics say that's too late for soldiers like Private John Hart, buried at Arlington National Cemetery this month after his patrol was ambushed in Taza (ph), Iraq October 18.

KENNEDY: The parents said, if you can do anything to make sure that other soldiers who are over there are not put in the kind of danger that my son was put in and lost, that would be the best thing that we could ever think of in terms of our son.


MCINTYRE: And Lou, as you noted, there's also a shortage of body armor in Iraq. But the Army insists that's about to end with production of new vests with ceramic breast plates now running at 25,000 a month.

The Army says by the end of December, every soldier in Iraq will have top of the line protection. Until then, some of them are sharing body armor -- Lou. DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much for that outstanding report. Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.

In Iraq today, the Air Force dropped some of its largest ordnance in attacks against suspected enemy positions. The Air Force dropped 2,000 pound bombs near Bakuba (ph), 30 miles northeast of Baghdad.

My guest tonight says American forces would do better to focus on classic counterinsurgency strategies. Joining me now, Max Boot, senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, author of "The Savage Wars of Peace, Small Wars in the Rise of American Power." He was in Iraq three months ago. Good to have you here, Max.

MAX BOOT, AUTHOR: Thanks very much, Lou.

DOBBS: This Iron Hammer, this operation, does it seem to you to be effective and an appropriate strategy?

BOOT: It's too early to tell, Lou, whether it's effective. We'll probably only know that months from now.

And I don't want to sit here in New York and second guess. But I do have some concerns from talking to people who are experts in counter-insurgency about whether this is the right strategy to adopt when you are fighting small bands of guerrillas who fight in threes or fours.

It's not clear to me what targets are being wiped with these 2,000 pound bombs.

DOBBS: The 5,000 counter-insurgents and terrorists which CENTCOM itself has defined, spread primarily through the Sunni Triangle, what would be the correct strategy?

BOOT: Some of the things that we have done before in counterinsurgencies from the Philippines, to Haiti, to Vietnam, which is working with small groups of Iraqis, developing effective police forces, effective intelligence forces, working to secure towns one by one.

Not using massive amounts of fire power, being very restrained in the use of fire power, to try to separate good guys from bad guys. That's what it takes and that's a long-term strategy. But that's the only way we're going to be successful in Iraq.

DOBBS: You were in Iraq. You saw the Iraqis and have a sense, at least, of their reaction.

Now we seem to have an acceleration of turning over power to Iraqis by June of next year and an apparent withdrawal program for U.S. troops. Is that going to undermine the earlier stated goals in Iraq?

BOOT: It might. If it creates a perception that we're cutting and running. And I'm not saying that's the perception now, but certainly when under fire we're talking about accelerating training schedules of Iraqi forces and accelerating them again about turning over power to Iraqis.

I mean, we ought to be doing all that. But if it creates the perception that we're drawing down our own forces, and we can't take the heat, and we are going to withdraw, then that makes it very hard for us in the short term, because the Iraqis have be looking nervously now, and wondering, do we have the staying power, or is Saddam going to come back? And that makes it harder for our forces now to get friends and win intelligence information over there.

DOBBS: Two weeks ago, the president enunciating an articulate policy of democratization for the region. Today in London, forceful statement and defense on his initiatives against Saddam Hussein along with the coalition.

Is it your judgment that those polices are apt to change as a result of an accelerated withdrawal of U.S. forces?

BOOT: Well, what President Bush says, I think, is I very hopeful and very right about trying to instill democracy in the Middle East. But the question is, do we have the staying power to do it in Iraq, because it's turning out to be a lot harder than some people anticipated.

And yet, the Pentagon is still talking about drawing down the total number of troops we have there next year which may be at odds of that hope of creating democracy in Iraq. I think it's still doable, but it's going to take a long-term commitment.

DOBBS: Max Boot, thanks for being here.

BOOT: Thank you.

DOBBS: Coming up next -- pop star Michael Jackson. He is a wanted man tonight. David Mattingly will report from Santa Barbara, California, on scathing new charges of sexual abuse against minors.

And a shocking declaration from the frontrunner in the raise for the presidential nomination. And what it could mean for every American worker and for this economy? Karen Tumulty of "TIME" magazine, Ron Brownstein of the "Los Angeles Times" joins us.

And "Broken Borders," our special report tonight. Our national parks are under siege from illegal aliens and drug smugglers. What are authorities doing about it? Casey Wian will report from Arizona. We'll be joined by national park service deputy director Don Murphy. Please stay with us.


DOBBS: Michael Jackson tonight is wanted on multiple charges of child molestation. Police in Santa Barbara, California, today issued an arrest warrant for Jackson and they called upon him to surrender. The arrest warrant comes a day after police searched Jackson's home for more than 13 hours. David Mattingly is in Santa Barbara, and has the live report for us -- David.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the anticipation of Michael Jackson returning here to Santa Barbara County continues to escalate. This, because of a statement released by a spokesperson from Michael Jackson. It confirms that arrangements have been made for Jackson's return and it expresses his eagerness to refute the child molestation charges that are against him.

The statement reads in part, "the outrageous allegations against Michael Jackson are false. Michael would never harm a child in any way. These scurrilous and totally unfounded allegations will be proven false in a court room."

It is a strongly worded statement of innocence that also reveals that arrangements, again, have been made for Jackson to come back here to face these charges. And when he does it will be the beginning of what will, no doubt, be some very high profile legal proceedings here.


SHERIFF JIM ANDERSON, SANTA BARBARA COUNTY: An arrest warrant for Mr. Jackson has been issued on multiple counts of child molestation. The bail amount on the warrant has been set at $3 million. At this point in time, Mr. Jackson's been given an opportunity to surrender himself to the custody of the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Department.


MATTINGLY: Last night, dozens of officers went in through the gates here at Neverland Ranch, serving a search warrant. Also here, and at two other locates in Southern California. Still no word on what they were looking for or what they found, but it is a very different scene here, Lou. We'd like to show you some video we took a short time ago.

A media village has erupt on the country two-lane road that leads to Neverland Ranch and it is growing by the hour. Everyone hoping now to catch a glimpse of what is the most recognized pop star in the world as he returns home to face what are some very serious charges -- Lou.

DOBBS: We are told that the Jackson legal team is in discussion with Santa Barbara authorities for a hand-over of Jackson to those authorities. Do we know what the deadline because we understand there is a deadline what that is and what the progress of those talks has been to this point?

MATTINGLY: It has all been very private so far. Again, the authorities here did say that there is a deadline. They have given Jackson a finite amount of time for him to turn himself in to Santa Barbara authorities, but they will not say what that is and when the clock stops ticking for Jackson's return. DOBBS: Thank you very much, David Mattingly.

Tonight's thought is on justice. "Justice is the greatest interest of man on Earth." That from statesman and lawyer, Daniel Webster.

Coming up next, your government at work, millions of unemployed workers denied needed help and training thanks in large part to government red tape. Lisa Sylvester will have that report from Washington.

And face off, illegal aliens, two leading national experts on the cost of illegals to this country's workers and the economy. Stay with us.


DOBBS: "Exporting America" tonight. AT&T Wireless is considering outsourcing more than 10 percent of its 30,000 employees. Published reports quoting people familiar with the situation as saying, "AT&T wireless is in talks with companies that employ workers in India and elsewhere overseas." A company spokesman would say only that AT&T Wireless is considering several possibilities to remain competitive.

Tonight, your government at work. The general accounting office says nearly 60,000 mass layoffs took place between 2000 and 2002 in this country, leaving millions without jobs. A federal program is supposed to give states grants to provide job training for those displaced workers. But as Lisa Sylvester now reported those employees are finding themselves both out of luck and work.


LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Across the country factories and plants have shut their doors during the recession leaving millions out of work. The Labor Department is responsible for giving $200 million a year in grants to the hardest hit states to help retrain employees. But a General Accounting Office report that help for many of the workers is delayed for months.

SEN. PATTY MURRAY (D), WASHINGTON: When you're telling somebody who is, you know, perhaps married with a couple, two or three kids, that they are going to be without a paycheck for 90 days while they're waiting for the grants that they know will get them back in the workforce, it's excrusiating.

SYLVESTER: According the GAO nearly 90 percent of the Labor Department grants took more than 30 days to process. Almost half of the grants were delayed by 90 days. After the plants have closed and workers dispersed it becomes more difficult to coordinate training programs. 25 of the 38 states that responded to the survey said training services were denied or delayed because grant money was not available. But the Labor Department says states share some of the blame. MASON BISHOP, ASST. LABOR SECRETARY: Sometimes we don't get the information we need on what services have been provided, how many workers have been identified that need services. And so the GAO report didn't take into account any of that time that we're working with the state on the completeness of their application.

SYLVESTER: But in the meantime it's the workers who are hurting. They've not only lost their job, they've also lost their safety net.


SYLVESTER: The Labor Department is promising to do a better job. One way is by going high-tech. The department is developing a system by the end of the year that would allow states to apply for grants online and that could cut the process time to within 15 business days -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa, thank you. Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.

Coming up next here -- broken borders. Tonight illegal aliens and drug smugglers destroying our national parks, taking over one of them.

Casey Wian will report from Oregon Pipe Cactus National Monument in Arizona and National Park Service Deputy Director Don Murphy joins us. Please stay with us.


DOBBS: China today threat topped go to war against Taiwan if the leadership pushes towards independence. A top Chinese official says Taiwan's president crossed China's red line by challenging Beijing's one-China policy. That statement was the first time China has threatened to use force against Taiwan in three years. Yesterday U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage said the United States will deploy sufficient forces in Asia to lower tensions between China and Taiwan.

Tonight our special report "broken borders." The 10 million illegal aliens in this country are not only breaking our laws and enjoying benefits of citizenships, such as healthcare and education now illegal alien smugglers and drug traffickers are on the verge of ruining some of our national treasures. Oregon Pipe Cactus National Monument in Arizona is one of the country's most beautiful national park. It is also consistently rated the nation's most dangerous national park. The reason, illegal aliens and drug smugglers have made it a key smuggling route into this country.

Casey Wian has the report.


CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bo Stone (ph) grew up hunting game in Oklahoma. Now he's a park ranger in the Arizona desert tracking illegal aliens and drug smugglers. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I'm looking at kicked over rocks, and a little bit of disturbance on the trail that tells me some people did come through here last night. I would assume undocumented aliens. I can call border patrol and pass that information on to them. Right now they're so shorthand I don't think they can't do anything about it.

WIAN: 330,000 acre Oregon Pipe Cactus National Monument is being over run by drug and alien traffickers.

(on camera): This night vision video shows a trail of backpacking drug couriers. Here illegal aliens sneak past sleeping campers. Rangers estimate about 200,000 illegal aliens and $700 million in drugs cross the border each year. In many place along the national park's bound boundary with Mexico, crossing illegally into the United States is a as easy as this, just walk across through a hole in the fence. Or you can drive your vehicle across through a hole in the fence, without absolutely nothing to stop you.

(voice-over): From hundreds of miles of illegal roads and trails to tons of trash and discarded clothes, the impact on the once- pristine park is devastating. Suspected scouts like these on the Mexican side often try to flush out rangers so smuggler can cross elsewhere. A dozen field rangers stationed here aren't enough to slow the wave of UDAs, undocument aliens.

FRED PATTON, CHIEF RANGER: Whether it's UDA traffic or drug traffic. And I would really love to tell you that we're at the 10 percent success rate level. I would love to tell you that.

WIAN (on camera): So it less than that?

PATTON: We're not there. We're not there. If I had twice the staff, could we get there, perhaps.

WIAN: Violence is also escalating. Last year this park ranger Chris Egly (ph) was killed in a shootout with a suspected drug trafficker. Rangers have closed some areas of the park to the public because of the danger, and visitor traffic is down. The park service is building $17 million steel vehicle barrier along the monument's entire 30-mile border with Mexico. But that won't stop foot crossing and vehicle traffic will likely find other soft spots in the Arizona desert.

Casey Wian, CNN, Oregon Pipe Cactus National Monument.


DOBBS: And what is the national park service doing in the face of the illegal alien and drug smuggler invasion into Oregon Pipe?

The national park service does not have the staff to combat the problem. We're joined tonight by the National Park Service Deputy Director Don Murphy who is responsible for law enforcement in our national parks. He joins us tonight from Los Angeles.

Good to have you with us.


DOBBS: Thank you, sir. And the parks for which you're responsible in the case of the seven national park along the southern border of this country, you're also responsible for immigration control are you not?

MURPHY: Well, we're not directly responsible for -- well, we're not responsible for immigration control but we are responsible for providing for the safety of our employees, the public that visits our parks and the protection of the natural and cultural resources that are there. And then of course, we work very closely with other agencies, particularly the border patrol to put in place measures to stem the tide. I mean, we're running to keep up. I mean, your assessment is accurate. We've doubled the staff at Oregon Pipe from seven to 14 rangers just within the last 12 months and we're still not able to keep up with the flow of illegal immigrants coming across the board.

DOBBS: It has been my privilege to get to know a number of national park rangers over the course of my career around the country. Terrific people. But not...

MURPHY: Yes, they are.

DOBBS: ... officers trained for this kind of duty, which is, frankly, interdiction of drug smugglers, to stop illegal alien crossing. I mean, we are placing these men and women in a horrible position, are we not, the not only at Oregon Pipe but other national parks.

MURPHY: Well, you bring up a very important point about training. One of the things that we are compelled to do now is to not put rangers in harm's way in these areas without the proper training. And so what we're doing now is stepping up our field training program, making sure that officers have had a full year and a half of training before they go out into these dangerous areas. You know, there's no question that it's a very difficult situation that the National Park Services is placed in. The other thing that we're confronted with out there is we have a rich, rich source of natural and culture resources there, that we are suppose to protecting. And this illegal alien traffic is destroying some of the resources before we even have a chance to catalog them and know what we're actually protecting.

DOBBS: The border patrol, homeland -- Department of Homeland Security, their responsibility, 200,000 illegal aliens estimated to go through Oregon pipe alone each year.


DOBBS: Why in the world has not a task force been formed of sufficient strength and resource and commitment to shut this down? Because in addition to everything else that's happening, as you pointed out, director, American citizens are losing privileges within one of the most beautiful national parks.

MURPHY: Well, there's no question about it. One thing we have done is at least put together a task force of the agencies that are there and responsible, the U.S. Forest Service, the Border Patrol, Fish and Wildlife, the National Park Service, of course, and others, to make sure that the coordination of our security efforts there do at least, and as optimal way we can, to stem the tide of illegal trafficking of drugs and illegal immigration traffic across our national parks.

The Department of Homeland Security, I know, is aware of this and they are working on ways to stem this tide, but it's a huge problem. It's a huge problem in a political context as well. And I think everyone needs to come together to figure out how to resolve this problem.

DOBBS: Director -- Deputy Director, Don Murphy, we thank you very much for being here with us tonight.

MURPHY: My pleasure. Thank you very much, Lou.

The National Park Service Deputy Director, Don Murphy from Los Angeles tonight. Tomorrow, our special report "Broken Borders," we focus on illegal aliens who not only threaten our economy and security, but also our health and well being. Millions of aliens crossing our borders.

Also many carry dangerous diseases, contagions and the damage they cause to both crops and public health cost this country billions each year. We'll have that little understood and little reported aspect of illegal alien story here tomorrow night. We hope you'll please join us.

Taking a look at your thoughts. One or two of you pointed out lately that I've read far too many positive e-mails about this broadcast. So, after hours of intensive research we entered a few extremely rare comments that could be considered negative.

On our report "Broken Borders" from San Rapael, California, "Enough, try to find some worthwhile news to discuss instead of race baiting hate speech for once." That from Edward Robson.

From Riverside, California, "I have been very offended by the recent stories you've done regarding illegal immigrants. I do not think you show both sides of the immigration issue in the same light." That from Annette. You're right Annette, our focus is on illegal aliens and frankly on this, we are one side and that is the side of the law.

And on my commentary last night on Disney's new film "Bad Santa" from Lynchburg, Virginia, "Dear Lou, you are almost always right. That said, your comments about Disney were just plain wrong. Miramax is its own brand, with its own identity, which is very different from its parent company." That from Rob Daniel.

From Sierra Vista, Arizona, "I'm going to be the first in line to see 'Bad Santa.' Frankly, I think it's more disgusting to lie to your kids about the existence of an omniscient being than make a satirical movie, obviously aimed at older youths and adults. Don't take it so seriously, Lou, it's just a movie." Thank you Julie Griswold.

Finally, from Huntsville, Alabama, "Lou, it should be required viewing for all government officials to view your show with its objective and on the mark reporting. How can anyone in office not be infuriated with what is really the underlying issues facing this country." That from Darryl Rhodes.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist at least one positive. We love hearing from you, positively and negatively. Email us at

Coming up next, Howard Dean says American workers are getting screwed, and he has a plan to stop it. Karen Tumulty of "TIME" magazine and Ron Brownstein of the "Los Angeles Times" join me. Please stay with us. Thank you.


DOBBS: The frontrunner for the Democratic presidential nomination at this point, Dr. Howard Dean, has called for a stunning reversal of decades of U.S. economic policy. The former Vermont governor told print reporters, what is needed now is a far-reaching re-regulation of utilities, airlines, large media firms and any business in America offering stock options. Dean says that's necessary in his view to restore faith in American business.

According to Dean, in order to make capitalism work for ordinary human beings, you have to have regulation. Right now workers are getting screwed. Dean's Democratic rivals quick to respond. Senator Joe Lieberman said, Dean's plan would turn back the economic clock. General Wesley Clark also went on the offensive.


GEN. WESLEY CLARK, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: According to "the Post," Governor Dean intends to distance himself from Clinton's economic legacy and wants to engineer a re-regulation of the American economy, distance himself from 22 million new jobs, from balanced budgets from low-interest rates, matched only by record-high growth.


DOBBS: Governor Dean's staggering call to re-regulate America headlines our political discussion this evening. Joining me, Karen Tumulty, national political correspondent for "TIME" magazine and Ron Brownstein, national correspondent for the "Los Angeles Times."

Let me turn to you, first, Karen. This strikes me as just a remarkably bold view to bring before the American people.

KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME": It is, indeed, and it's exactly the sort of comment that Dean's supporters love to hear from him. And it's exactly the reason why he's been so controversial.

I can guarantee you that right now the -- I could be willing to get the Republican National Committee right now is going over his record as governor of Vermont to take a look at how he stood on regulation, because they, you know have come up with a lot of research as to Vermont's own record as a heavily regulated state.

DOBBS: He was a deregulator in Vermont, wasn't he not, Ron?

RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Yes, by and large. I mean, he have very good relations with the business community, environmentalists had problems with him on some issues, particularly land use issues up there.

Look, as a general proposition, Howard Dean is running for president to the left of how he governed as the governor of Vermont. He's emphasizing more liberal themes, he's reversed himself on trade issues about, become much more critical of free trade as pursued by Bill Clinton. And in general, sort of positioning himself toward the left of the Democratic party.

I think we'll have to hear more specifics about exactly what he means here. Any Democrat would have a more aggressive regulatory posture on things like the environment or occupational health than President Bush. The striking implication here is that he wants to go beyond that in the economic arena where Democrats from Jimmy Carter to Bill Clinton have also been looking to loosen federal controls over the quarter century

TUMULTY: But the fact is, the Democratic electorate itself has also moved. If you take a look at the Pew Center (ph) survey from the beginning of -- earlier this month, you see that while Democrats and Republicans have always viewed big business differently, in fact, the gap is larger than it has ever been in terms of Democrats really mistrusting big business and its power after this round of corporate scandals over the last few years.

DOBBS: Let me ask you both, we talked with Jay Carson, Dean's press secretary, and he didn't seem to feel that this was a particularly bold statement, as a matter of fact, he sort of was a little timid about it in point of fact. Could it be that Howard Dean sort of backed into this amazingly bold and highly risky statement about re-regulation?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, it could easily be. I mean, Howard Dean has said a lot of things in this campaign that he's subsequently modified, amended or taken back. As I said originally, I think we have to see exactly how far he wants to go on this.

A couple of things are clear. All of the democrats are promising to be much tougher on business, on environmental issues and to a degree that is striking, especially when compared to Al Gore and Bill Clinton, they are talking about making it easier for unions to organize.

There is a definitely a movement in the Democratic Party, on a variety of issues, to be closer to unions than perhaps the Clinton strategy was to be. And as Karen said, it reflects the shift in public opinion. No doubt across the board as measured in polls, the Democratic electorate has moved somewhat to the left after Clinton has left office. I think part is a back lash to Bush and what you're seeing is Dean responding to that. But it is possible that he may not quite go quite as far as this suggests.

TUMULTY: In fact, in his speech yesterday, in front of Enron headquarters in Houston where he was talking about a new social contract, he did not use that term re-regulation or go even nearly as far as he did in this interview with reporters aboard his plane which took place pretty late at night.

DOBBS: Suggesting it wasn't an entirely refined and formal consideration that led to it. Obviously a great deal of formality in London, Karen and Ron, with the president who had made a very strong defense of the Bush White House's policy on Iraq coming as it does two weeks after the statements of democracy and his very important speech on democracy in the Middle East. Do you see the president reversing direction in these polls with this appearance at least in London?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, actually, I think, if you look at polls we're having this remarkable reversal of roles or switching of clothes where the weak ratings the president had -- the doubts that the public had about the economy are beginning to soften a little bit and that's being on the other side of the ledger he has growing doubts about the way things are growing in Iraq. Look, Bush is committed to his course, the Bush doctrine international of affairs looks like the cornerstone of his presidency as much as the tax cuts are domestically and I think he's going to carry this argument aggressively 2004. In the Democratic race as well, foreign policies is dominating the argument. The war if Iraq is dominating the argument. If you look at Both things together, Lou, you get the feeling as one predominate conservative recently said 2004 is likely to be more referendum on Bush's approach to fighting the war on terrorism and guaranteeing American security than anything else. And I wouldn't bet against that right now.

DOBBS: And Karen, who do you think would be most advantaged by that?

It looks as though this economy, if these current trends hold, will be literally booming next year with tremendous surplus in the economy.

Do you think that President Bush is advantaged in that situation?

TUMULTY: He is, which is why, again, you see Governor Dean here trying to make an opening in this fundamental issue that Democrats say of fairness.

DOBBS: OK. Karen Tumulty and Ron Brownstein we thank you both, as always, for being here. Thank you.

That brings us tonight's poll. The question, do you believe a comprehensive re-regulation of U.S. businesses is needed? Yes, no, or are you neutral on this issue. Please cast your vote at We'll have results coming up a little later.

Tonight's quote is from Capitol Hill where a U.S. military official testified before the Senate on support of this country's armed forces. And we quote, "This army is committed and what we've got to do is commit ourselves and make sure we're supporting our soldiers. They are providing an extraordinary service to this nation at the extraordinary level of excellence, and we owe them everything we can give them."

That from General Peter Schoomaker, chief of staff, U.S. Army.

The dollar today rebounded slightly a day after falling to its lowest level ever against the Euro. But in recent weeks the dollar has fallen sharply against major currencies, while commodity prices have been soaring.

Kitty Pilgrim reports on the story behind those numbers.


KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Crude oil prices have been climbing. Gas prices just spiked up this week and so did home heating oil. Traders say that's unusual because the driving season is winding down and the peak winter demand months for heating oil haven't started. In New York trading crude oil prices haven't been this high since March just before the war. Oil prices have hit $33 a barrel. No help from OPEC. The head of OPEC said prices don't seem too high to him.

PETER BEUTEL, OIL ANALYST: It's a combination of factors. Behind it all is OPEC (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to supply the market with as much oil as it needs. A great deal of nervousness of events in the Middle East.

PILGRIM: Gold is also up, its highest level almost seven and a half years flirting with $400 an ounce. Many say the main reason is it's a hedge against the weak dollar. But economists say it's also a general flight to safety around the world.

DAVID WYSS, CHIEF ECONOMIST: There clearly is a flight to gold. People are getting scared. Money gets scared, gold always seems secure.

PILGRIM: The U.S. dollar has been sinking. This week it fell to its lowest level against the Euro and three-year low against the Japanese yen. Foreign investment in U.S. markets fell sharply in September. That announcement caused the dollar to drop further. U.S./China trade factored into decline also. President Bush planned to set quotas on some imports of clothing from China. That news set off fears of a trade war which could bring the dollar even lower.


PILGRIM: We saw some relief today. Oil fell back a bit and so did gold. But economist say prices are still expected to stay high. The weak dollar will help U.S. businesses compete worldwide -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.

New developments tonight in the scandal unfolding in the currency trading markets. Prosecutors now say traders stole millions of dollars from small investors and big banks. Christine Romans is here -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Operation Wooden Nickel 18 months long, 47 people arrested so far and the Justice Department says that ring involved rig trade in currency market. Some schemes going on for 20 years. U.S. Attorney James Comey says the ring milked millions from small investors all the way up to the big banks. The raid nabbed the typical boiler room players who sold small investor fake currency contracts. And it says the crooks that infiltrated the biggest players in foreign exchange. Defendants named in this sting included employees of JP Morgan Chase, Societe Generale, UBS and Dresdner as well other names better know in the currency world. In all of that the defendants got kick backs for allocating losing trades to the cohorts and then of course the banks lost out -- Lou.

DOBBS: Amazing. Wall Street is simply an amazing place these days.

ROMANS: Certainly is.

DOBBS: The New York Stock Exchange, a very important vote. The New York Stock Exchange voting on a recommendation of changes in its governance made by the New York Stock Exchange.

How did the vote turn out?

ROMANS: The 98 percent of members voted for that plan to reform itself. So, for the first time in 200 years the brokerage CEOs can't vote on the rules of the stock exchange but they'll be very close by. Have no fear. They'll be on another board that can't vote but they can advise.

DOBBS: 98 percent approval. I've seen closer elects in the old Soviet Union. Thanks very much, Christine Romans.

Up next our "Face Off". We focus tonight on illegal aliens. Tonight the cost of illegal aliens to this country's economy and its workers. We'll hear two very different views in our "Face Off" coming up next about. Please stay with us.


ANNOUNCER: "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" continues. Now "Face Off".

DOBBS: Tonight's "Face Off" on illegal aliens and their impact on our security, our economy and society: beneficial or detrimental? Mark Krikorian says the cost of illegal aliens are mounting in this country, from our schools and hospitals to the criminal justice system. He's the executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies. Frank Sharry says illegal aliens contribute to the country's tax revenue and rounding them up, he says, would cause havoc. He is the executive director of the National Immigration Forum. Both of them join us tonight from Washington, D.C. Good to have you here.



DOBBS: Let me begin first with prisons. Our prisons are, by most estimates, costing $1.5 billion because of the large illegal alien population within them. Is there any way in your judgment, Frank, that there is an offset to that kind of burden?

SHARRY: Of course not, and the federal government should do a better job of reimbursing, but most of those are drug dealers who didn't spring up out of the immigrant communities. They're folks who have come into the country with drugs and have been caught.

Of course there are specific costed with respect to prisons and schools. But there are generalized prosperity and benefits that accrue to all Americans from the hard work of immigrant here.

DOBBS: Let's get to those in a moment, Frank. If I may turn to you, first, Mark on the issue of those burdens that we carry. The first issue is illegal aliens work at jobs that no other American will take and thereby provide an important economic service. How do you respond?

KRIKORIAN: Well, Lou, that's economic jibberish. There's no such thing as a job an American won't take. There are jobs that Americans won't do at a certain wage level and a certain benefit level and organized in a certain way, yes, there's no question about that. But what the advocates of illegal immigration are saying is that the economy is a static system and needs to stay the way it is rather than evolve in such a way as to make these jobs better paying and more capital intensive so they are consistent with a modern economy.

DOBBS: Frank, do you agree?

SHARRY: No, we agree actually with Alan Greenspan, that immigrants are a vital part of our economic dynamism. The fact is, that the number of U.S.-born workers who are willing to do half the jobs that require a high school education or less is declining rapidly as our society ages. The answer is that immigrants are coming, making more wages than they would at home, doing service sector jobs that support highly educated Americans to be more productive, which leads to greater wealth overall.

That has been the secret to the American economic success story for 400 years. And to claim that somehow this wave of immigrants is different when we have 400 years of history, I think simply is not accurate.

DOBBS: Well, this world seems to you to be the same as at the turn of the previous century, Frank? SHARRY: Actually, I think it's more like it than not. The fact is that, look, who's -- your staff in New York is a city where 40 percent of the population is immigrants, correct? How many of your staff can work at their six-figure jobs, because they have immigrants taking care of their kids, immigrants landscaping their yard, immigrants preparing their meals, cleaning their house, cleaning your office, parking your cars, attending to elderly.

DOBBS: Wait a minute, Frank, Frank...


SHARRY: That is the economic dynamism that economists called comparative advantage. It leads to more wealth for all, because there's greater productivity.

DOBBS: Frank...


DOBBS: Just a moment -- and you certainly may. Frank, first, I have got to reprimand you for putting immense pressure on CNN to provide significant raises for much of our staff.

Secondly, you've added the word immigrant rather than illegal alien which is the point we're talking about. And if -- really there's quite a major important distinction, do you not agree?

SHARRY: Yes, but see, the first question is whether you think immigrants are a positive force. If you think immigrants are a positive force...

DOBBS: Than, I should think illegal? Wait, no. I want to get Mark into this. But the fact that I think immigration is a positive force for the economy in no way, syllogistically does it follow, that I believe illegal aliens are -- I'm stunned you would suggest that.

SHARRY: If you think immigrations's a positive force the way to deal with illegal immigration is create wider legal channels so it's reflective of supply and demand. We have a supply of workers doing available jobs and we make it illegal with restrictive laws.

KRIKORIAN: The society that Frank is describing really is more like Rhodesia than anything that the United States ought to be, where foreigners are supposedly doing all of these jobs for us that we don't want to do. The fact is, in most of the country, or many parts of the country, all of these jobs that supposedly Americans won't do are in fact done by Americans.

The problem is that the availability of this cheap foreign labor, much of it illegal, creates -- retards the process of technological development and productivity increased in those industries where illegal aliens are concentrated, whether it's agriculture or even construction or even services.

DOBBS: Retards technological development, Mark? KRIKORIAN: Yes, it does. In those industries where this happens. For instance, in agriculture, which is the industry where about half of the workforce is made up of illegal immigrants, the mechanization of the harvest of fruit and vegetable crop has come to a stop, precisely because of the enormous inflow of cheap foreign workers.

DOBBS: Let me ask you two quick questions, because we're out of time. One, do you first of all, support far more secure borders and controlling borders, gentlemen?


KRIKORIAN: Absolutely.

DOBBS: Secondly the Clear Act, and that is, bringing local law enforcement into aggressive investigation and apprehension of illegal aliens in concert with national law enforcement authorities?

KRIKORIAN: There's simply no question that something like the Clear Act is essential if we are to have an immigration control system that's going to work.

DOBBS: Frank?

SHARRY: Big city police forces oppose it, because it will drive a wedge between immigrants and police and make public safety worse. The answer is, a federal fix that brings immigration under the rule of law, legal channels, a regulatory framework so that immigration, which is a positive force, can be -- can occur legally.

KRIKORIAN: In other words, amnesty for illegal aliens is what Frank is talk about.

DOBBS: Gentlemen, we have to break it up right there. We hope you will continue this dialogue on our national immigration policy. And we thank you both for being here.

SHARRY: Thank you.

DOBBS: A reminder to vote in our poll tonight, "Do you believe a comprehensive re-regulation of U.S. businesses is needed," as called for by the Democratic front-leader for the Democratic presidential nomination, yes, no, or neutral. Cast your vote at We'll have the results in a few moments. Please stay with us.


DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. The question, "do you believe a comprehensive re-regulation of U.S. businesses is needed?" 86 percent of you said yes, 9 percent said no, 5 percent said neutral.

Well that is our show for tonight, thanks for being with us. Tomorrow night here on our special report "Broken Borders" we focus on illegal alien traffic across our borders and the cargo they carry with them, in many cases dangerous bacteria and viruses. For more on protecting our borders, Congressman Tom Tancredo, who has entered new legislation to protect our borders, the power chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, Bill Thomas will be here as well.

For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.


Issue Warrant for Jackson's Arrest; 'Broken Borders'>

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