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Paula Zahn Now

Michael Jackson is Expected to Turn Himself in Thursday Morning; Was This a Bad Week for Democratic Presidential Candidates?

Aired November 19, 2003 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: In focus tonight. Police issues an arrest warrant for Michael Jackson on multiply accounts of child molestation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We would encourage him to turn himself in and cooperate with law enforcement.

ANNOUNCER: Al Qaeda's big shift in strategy and how it's pushing the threat level even higher all over the world.

And the city of brotherly love and it's bid to be the next big gay travel mecca.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AARON BROWN, GUEST HOST: Good evening, again, I'm Aaron Brown, Paula is off tonight.

Also ahead tonight, presidential politics. Joe Klein joins us to tell us why it is a miserable week for the Democratic candidates.

And the insanity defense this week in one of the sniper trials and in John Hinckley's attempt to get unsupervised visits with his parents.

We'll debate if the insanity defense in America needs fixing.

Plus we'll talk to a man who has made medical history. The first person to take a vaccine against the Ebola virus, one of the deadly diseases on the planet.

Also, are we witnessing a big change in the world of women's magazines?

Is perky and happy replacing rail thin and sour. Who better to ask those questions.

But first, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.

A royal toast for President Bush. Mr. Bush and the first lady took a meal at Buckingham Palace with the queen tonight. The dinner rounded out the first official day of the president's visit to Britain, which has been met with some protesting.

U.S. Canadian task force lays most of the blame on an Ohio power company for this summer's massive North American blackout. The commission says the blackout began when three power lines in Ohio failed and operators at First Energy a company that's had problems didn't react properly to contain the problem. About 50 million people ended up in the dark.

In West Virginia today, emergency crews are using boats to rescue people stranded by flooding. Dozen counties there under a state of emergency. The governor says more will be added to the list as the storm system moves through the region.

Those are the headline's tonight.

We lead with the case against the king of pop. Earlier today a warrant was issued for the arrest of Michael Jackson. He is facing multiple counts of child molestation, one child involved. Allegations Mr. Jackson says are false. CNN's Frank Buckley starts us off. He is live in Santa Barbara, California.

Frank, good evening.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron, and we've been reporting based on some information from a knowledgeable source that's been shooting straight with us in the past that Michael Jackson will be arriving here in Santa Barbara tomorrow morning to turn himself in to authorities. But let me show you some live pictures right now provided by local television stations who are over the Santa Barbara Municipal Airport in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) where they are showing scenes of several unmarked, what appear to be police car and one marked black and white that appears to be a Santa Barbara sheriff vehicle.

Local news reporting that Michael Jackson has already landed here in the Santa Barbara area, that is not independently confirmed by CNN. Whenever Michael Jackson arrives here back in Santa Barbara County, he will be booked on multiple counts of child molestation. According to local authorities who confirm today that the search that was conducted at the Neverland Ranch yesterday here in Santa Barbara County and also the arrest warrant that was issued for Michael Jackson was in connection with allegations of child molestation. Also, two additional search warrants were issued in Los Angeles. Michael Jackson has been accused of child molestation in the past. In 1993 he was not charged with that, he maintained his innocence. The case was settled in a civil settlement. This time, authorities say, it will be different.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no civil case filed and there is no anticipation that there will be a civil case filed in this particular case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim will be required to testify, even if there were a civil settlement of some case. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BUCKLEY: And we should tell you that a spokesman for Michael Jackson issued a statement today, the outrageous allegations against Michael Jackson are false. Michael would never harm a child in any way. These (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and totally unfounded allegations will be proven false in a courtroom. Michael has already made arrangements with the district attorney to return to Santa Barbara to confront and prove these charges unfounded.

Aaron, so that's the situation right now. All of us awaiting Michael Jackson's arrival back here in Santa Barbara County.

BROWN: He either is or is not on that plane, but obviously media in Southern California believe he is. Frank, thank you. We'll talk to you later tonight. Frank Buckley, on Santa Barbara.

We turn now to three people who can shed some light on the details of all of this that has emerged over the last couple of days. First from Anaheim, California, Brian Oxman, a friend of the Jackson family and attorney, as well.

From Santa Barbara tonight, we're joined by Court TV reporter Diane Dimond. Ms. Dimond has been working on this story really hard for a really long time and really well. She broke the news of the first allegations of child molestation against Michael Jackson 10 years ago.

Also in Santa Barbara, Michael Bryant, the legal correspondent for the TV program "Extra."

Mr. Bryant was at the Neverland Ranch yesterday when police searched the property. We're glad to all of you.

Ms. Dimond, when did these allegations first emerge?

How long has this been going on?

DIANE DIMOND, COURT TV REPORTER: The allegations, I first heard about the allegations from my sources about three months ago, maybe not quite that long ago. These are very new allegations and it took them a while to get the family protected, to get the proper search warrants and arrest warrants and I'll make one correction to what you said. The arrest warrant was not issued today. When they knocked on the door at Neverland Ranch yesterday, they had the arrest warrant in their hand, according to Tom Steden (ph), I got an interview with him. They were ready to arrest Michael Jackson on the spot, had he been there.

BROWN: And just for our viewers, on the right side of our screen, that is a private jet that may or may not be holding Mr. Jackson. He was in Las Vegas doing a video of some sort and there is some thought he flew back to the Santa Barbara area.

Mr. Bryant, what do you know about the young man making the allegation? MICHAEL BRYANT, EXTRA: Well, it's interesting, and Diane mentioned her timeline which is sqaures somewhat with the timeline I have from my source suggesting a young man went into an L.A. lawfirm seeking representation two to three months ago. And although that firm did not take the case, that child and his family were refered to the district attorney's office to pursue the matter.

If that time line is consistent with everything we have heard and everything we have heard, since I learned that yesterday morning is consistent, then we're talking about the same person. I'm more concerned we're talking about a different person. There may be another victim out there. And there was one statement made in the press conference today that I think is bit telling, it was Sheriff Anderson when virtually every question asked by the press that was not going to be touched was answered in this way. We can't say anything about that. We can't say anything about this. But one question answered differently, was are there other victims that are part of an investigation?

He said, no comment.

DIMOND: No that's not what the question was. That's not what the question was. It was, do you think there might be other victims out there to which this sheriff said, yes. Like, you know, there might be. I took that...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Hang on, guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm talking about the no comment remark.

BROWN: I don't want to bog down on this point, OK. Let me just try to find a couple -- let me satisfy my own curiosity for a couple more minutes here.

Do we know, Mr. Bryant, do we know how the young man ended up in proximity to Michael Jackson?

BRYANT: Well, we know the theories that are out there, there are obviously no official confirmation, some say it was through a relationship that began as many have allegedly have where he invited the child to the property, he the parents were involved and they got to know one another and things devolved from there. We have already heard how wine might have been used to ply the young boy and basically a seduction took place. None of that is confirmed, though.

BROWN: I understand. Ms. Dimond, can you add to that?

Do you know anything about the circumstances about this young man who making the allegation to the ranch in the first place?

DIMOND: I do, Aaron, I will tell you that I've covered this story for so long and covered a lot of child molesting stories and I want to say it does us absolutely no good to reveal this child's identity and, remember, this is a child. This child... BROWN: Diane, I'm not asking for his identity. I'm asking for the circumstances.

DIMOND: I understand. It's out there, it's already on the Web site with other news organizations. And I don't want to go there, but, yes. What you just heard, I've heard, too. I get it from top law enforcement sources that there was alcohol involved. And that Neverland was used as a lure.

BROWN: Got it. I'm not asking his name. I have no interest in his name. Thank you.

Mr. Oxman, let's get you in here.

Have you talked to the family at all?

What's going on over the last 48 hours?

BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: The Jackson family is extremely upset by all this commotion and the storm which is going on. And there's no question about it that they view it with concern. But what we saw today is even of greater concern and that is a press conference where the District Attorney is really leaking information utilizing Ms. Dimond as the source. She tells us about alcohol, no one else knows about that...

DIMOND: I resent that untruth.

BROWN: Diane, we'll get to you, thank you.

OXMAN: It is wrong. It's absolutely wrong. We're hearing about when this child is through Diane Diamond. We're hearing about the allegations.

DIMOND: You are absolutely incorrect and you're embarrassing yourself by what you're saying.

OXMAN: It is wrong. It is not the ethical way by which a prosecutor proceeds to have a journalist accompany them to a search of Neverland Ranch. The prosecutor has stars in their eyes of Hollywood. And when they have these kinds of stars of publicity, they are blinded by the light. And I think that's what is going to happen here and that's exactly what happened here.

BROWN: Mr. Oxman, thank you. Just again for people just joining us. One of these private jets on the runway outside of Santa Barbara is believed to be carrying Mr. Jackson, perhaps it's even the one taxiing.

Whether he will be arrested there or will surrender tomorrow morning as we anticipated, we don't yet know. We'll just keep an eye on it. Now, Ms. Dimond, let's get back to you. Since your name was thrown around a fair amount.

DIMOND: You can just call me Diane.

BROWN: Do you want to react to what Mr. Oxman said?

DIMOND: Mr. Oxman said so many things that are incorrect, I don't even know where to start...

BROWN: Well, pick one.

DIMOND: I think he would be embarrassed to say some of these things. First of all, I did not go on the search with the district attorney. What is he talking about? Second, I'm not being used as a tool to reveal anything about this child. I condemn any reporter who puts this child's name or information about this child out there. It's unnecessary to this story. And it's hurtful and mean and I have read Michael Jackson's disclaimers all day long on my Court TV network.

So, Mr. Oxman is engaging in exactly what the Jacksons always do. They attack the people who say things they don't like to hear. It happened in 1993, it happened in '94 and it's happening again and now I'm the target. How ridiculous is that?

BROWN: Let me bring in one more voice because I guess that's probably what we need at this point, one more voice. Jeffrey Toobin is us with, our legal analyst. Just -- I'll get to some of these other issues that matter, but were you at all uncomfortable by the tone of that news conference today?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It was weird. It was definitely weird. This laughter at times, this sort of jocular nature. There was a question at the end that both of them, that various people have referred to earlier about are there other people out there who have had their stories suppressed and the D.A., I believe, said, yes I think so. It's different being a D.A. than it is being a talk show guest. I mean you can't speculate. You can't be...

OXMAN: Something we regretted for a long time.

TOOBIN: They are supposed to operate by different rules and I thought it was odd and inappropriate and I thought they would be better off with a different tone.

BROWN: A more substantive legal question, since that's what we pay your around here to do, is a -- these things basically come down to he said he said?

TOOBIN: They don't, by and large. That is obviously a major part of the case, but the reason they're searching for, they're searching Neverland is they want cooperation. Are there videotapes or photographs, other witnesses? What about the people who worked at Neverland, what did they see, if anything? What about this kid, does he have any injuries? Who did he report it to first? How long after the first incident, if there is an incident, did he report it? Did he go back? Those are real practical legal, evidentiary questions that this case will turn on.

BROWN: Mr. Bryant, do you know anything about what police either were looking for when they executed these warrants, or what they took away?

BRYANT: We believe what they were looking for and what they found were computers, software, videotapes. We believe they took more than a million photos with them when they left, either in the form of hard photos or...

BROWN: A million?

BRYANT: A million, yes. Hard photos and/or computer images and a computer can store, you know, a million photos without a whole lot of effort.

BROWN: Michel, let me interrupt you for a second, because on the other side of our screen our viewers or now full screen our viewers can see that Gulfsteam taxiing down the runway outside -- at a private airport, a private airport outside of Santa Barbara. And it's taken off. And it's going somewhere. And truth be told, we don't know. And we don't know if Mr. Jackson is on it, or got off it. But we'll find out, or at least we'll try.

Mr. Bryant, I interrupted you, I apologize.

BRYANT: No problem. In addition to those items, we believe that there were maybe some drawings. Anything, I hate to put it this way, anything that would fit into a pedophile kit. I mean, we heard these stories many time: computer pornography, books, images, videotapes. I know, Brian Oxman, how are you, haven't talked to you in a bit, I know your position is this is all very innocent material.

OXMAN: Michael maintains a library of his entire history going back to the time he was 8 years old, of literally a million photographs at his house at Neverland Ranch. He has thousands of videotape, not only of commercially prepared videos, but also of the family and his Christmas vacations, his Thanksgivings and the family coming together. It will take literally months and months for police to go through these things. They're extraordinarily entertaining and interesting, but we doubt whether there's going to be anything of interest to this prosecution in any of that material.

BROWN: Mr. Oxman, let me ask you and Jeff Toobin a kind of practical legal question. In your case, you have a friend who has a reputation who, we all believe, went through these allegations one time before, who settled the case, who, I think, most people find it a bit odd, perhaps more than a bit odd. How difficult do you think it's going to be for him to get a fair trial once that happens?

OXMAN: The question of fair trial really resolves around the kind of publicity that we have. This is promising to be the biggest case and the biggest story of the year 2003. And that means, as it develops, it could eclipse the Iraqi War as being the biggest story of the year. If it does...

BROWN: I hope not.

OXMAN: Count me on hoping not, as well. I absolutely hope not, too, but that's where it appears to me, it might be going. If that's the case, fair trial becomes a real serious issue.

BROWN: I would think, Jeffrey, that even if it doesn't become bigger than war and bigger than all these other things, bigger than the one we did a few years back, Mr. Simpson, the question of fair trial in the case of Michael Jackson is a particularly knotty one because of some of the things they talked about. Even if you set aside the previous allegation, the fact that he strikes people as a little bit odd.

TOOBIN: As a little bit odd, what's especially odd and difficult about the Michael Jackson situation, it's not like the Laci Peterson case, where the attention was concentrated heavily in one place in Modesto. I don't think people in Santa Barbara have a significantly different attitude towards Michael Jackson than they do in Los Angeles.

It is a nationwide, certainly statewide problem. That's why I don't think a change of venue would do much good at all here. I think it's just a big, big problem. You can be sure, if this case goes to trial, the jury selection will be an incredibly difficult, time- consuming task as jurors are studied for they're attitudes about Michael Jackson, because frankly, a lot of people have a lot of attitudes about him.

BROWN: Thank you for coming in, Jeffrey and the rest. Thank you for joining us -- always interesting time. This will be interesting to watch play out. And Mr. Oxman, if you're right, it will be a heck of a story over the next year or so. Thank you, all, for joining us.

Joe Klein coming up to talk about why it's been a tough week for the Democrats as they head towards the 2004 presidential election. Are they losing control of issues like energy and healthcare, gay rights and gay marriage?

Also tonight, a debate, as John Hinckley the man who tried to kill president Reagan is in court fighting for some more freedom, is the insanity defense in the country broken?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Here now to presidential politics. Haven't been a good week for the Democrats, many believe. The party has led the fight for Medicare and prescription drug coverage for decades and that may have been pulled out from under them this week. The economy seems to be getting better and then the decision on gay marriage in Massachusetts, which may create some problems for Democratic candidates, as well. Joe Klein from "Time" magazine, regular contributor of ours is here to talk about that.

I want to talk about Medicare first because I think this is the big one. The Democrats are in, to my thinking, you've never been afraid to tell me I'm wrong, a terrible box here. The box got tighter when the AARP signed on. JOE KLEIN, PAULA ZAHN NOW CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, the American Association of Retired People. One of the biggest lobbies there and usually a fairly safe liberal lobby came out in favor of the prescription drug benefit which the Democrats have been for since before forever. In fact, they have used this issue to hammer Republicans in campaign after campaign after campaign.

BROWN: This is kind of Clinton-ish in a sense in the way that Clinton sees crime and welfare reform.

KLEIN: That's right. That's right. You know, the Republicans this week, the Bush administration spending like drunken sailors between the Medicare bill and the energy bill, but in terms of Medicare, even if it doesn't pass the Senate, which it is likely to do, by the way, even if it doesn't pass, Bush will be able to look at five of the six main Democratic candidates and say, why did you oppose prescription drugs for seniors?

And the reasons why they did is because they are against a reform of the Medicare system, which is now a fee for service plan which means anybody who want to go to the doctor can go to the doctor and get whatever they want. What's going to have to happen with Medicare because it is such an expensive program and there are so many of us. It's going to be the same kind of...

BROWN: There are so many of us who are getting old fast.

KLEIN: Yes. Speak for yourself, but in any case, well, I'm -- in any case, what's going to have to happen is that Medicare is going to have to become like the rest of health care. It will have to be HMOs, PPOs, managed care if we're going to keep the cost contained. The Democrats are against that.

BROWN: Democrats, at best, lose an issue that would have been their issue. They gain one they'd rather not have and that's the issue of gay marriage.

How big an issue do you think this is going to be? The Republican's like this issue, don't they?

KLEIN: They like the issue but they can't like it too much. If they push too hard on it, people are going to be offended. It's the kind of thing where it will fly just slightly under the radar screen. The Democrats all are in favor of civil unions, which is a euphemism for gay marriage. And the polls right now say that the public doesn't like gay marriage by about 60/40.

BROWN: Do you think they can make the distinction between gay marriage...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Yes. Yes. And say, well, no, what we're actually in favor of making sure that people who are in committed relationships, whether they gay or straight, have the same property rights and legal rights and that sort of thing. KLEIN: Look, I think there's a strong rational case to be made for that. And a case very popular among people under the age of 30 however, it's very unpopular among people over the age of 65. Those people tend to vote. The young people tend not to.

BROWN: Meanwhile, the economy continues to get better by all reports.

KLEIN: By some reports, but we'll see how it goes. There are some conflicting signals.

BROWN: Good to see you.

KLEIN: Good to see you.

BROWN: Joe Klein with us tonight. Thank you very much.

As the United States continues its hunt for Osama bin Laden, some intelligence experts believe al Qaeda has gone underground. A strategy shift that could make the world a more dangerous place. We'll have a report coming up.

And the changing face of women's magazines, perky and cheerful, vs. sour.

What do women really want from the newsstand?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, as if the ongoing terrorist threat attacks by al Qaeda isn't enough, some intelligence experts believe that Osama bin Laden's terrorist group is farming out some of its deadly operations.

CNN's Maria Ressa, reports on what seems to be a shift in al Qaeda strategy.

MARIA RESSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two Turkish synagogues bombed, 25 dead, more than 300 wounded and it's just one example of how al Qaeda works today, using affiliates to do its dirty work, like here in Southeast Asia. For more then seven years, this sleepy town in Malaysia was al Qaeda's terror HQ. From this hub, regional intelligence officials tell CNN, Jemaah Islamiyah -- or JI -- al Qaeda's arm in this part of the world, quietly created a system of Islamic schools which provided new recruits and sent its members to al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan, built replica camps in the southern Philippines and plotted future attacks. JI's goal was to overthrow regional governments and create one giant Islamic state stretching from the Philippines to Malaysia and Indonesia to the northern tip of Australia.

Under the radar screen of much of the West, al Qaeda peddled the same dream to other associate groups around the world, uniting Muslim grievances under its radical ideology.

TONY TAN, DEP. PRIME MINISTER, SINGAPORE: The type of terrorism which we are facing is more akin to the communist movement, which rises from a belief that it's their destiny to change the world.

RESSA: Beginning in 1998, al Qaeda carried out one major attack each year. But after it was pushed out of Afghanistan in 2001 and thousands of its operatives arrested, analysts says, it turned to its associates around the world.

ROHAN GUNARATNA, AUTHOR, "INSIDE AL QAEDA": Al Qaeda is able to replenish their human losses and their material wastage (ph) and continue the fight because it has effectively established links with local and regional Islamist terrorist groups.

RESSA: After Afghanistan, these groups, government officials say, have carried out attacks in places like Yemen, Jordan, Kenya, Russia, Indonesia, India, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Morocco and the Philippines. Although the attacks seem independent of each other, they carry al Qaeda's stamp, analysts add.

Take four days last May, when al Qaeda carried out multiple large-scale operations, most suicide bombings, in four different countries. More important, the worst attacks have taken place in Muslim nations like Indonesia and Saudi Arabia, where governments tolerated the presence of al Qaeda-linked terrorists. Galvanizing these nations into action is important, officials says, because the front line of the war on terror is in every Muslim community between a radical minority and a moderate majority.

LEE KUAN YEW, SINGAPORE SENIOR MINISTER: The radicals have their program. The moderates don't have a program. They are in power. The radicals want to seize power from the moderates. They will actually -- they must collide.

RESSA: The non-Muslim world, Lee adds, must help the moderates win.

(on camera): Regional intelligence officials tell CNN Jemaah Islamiyah, al Qaeda's arm in Southeast Asia, continues to plan more attacks for December to April. Training continues in the southern Philippines. That situation, analysts say, is replicated in many al Qaeda-linked groups around the world, making the threat level higher than ever.

Maria Ressa, CNN, Manila.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up on the program, a debate tonight over the insanity defense, as two cases hit the news this week, one of the sniper suspects, and then there's John Hinckley, Jr., the man who shot President Reagan.

And we'll meet the first man to volunteer for a test of a vaccine for one of the most deadly diseases in the world, Ebola.

Tomorrow on the program, New York Yankees manager Joe Torre, his very personal story of growing up with an abusive father.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Here are some of the other headlines you need to know right now. Radio host Rush Limbaugh is strongly denying suggestions, allegations he was involved in money laundering to buy prescription drugs. This started with an ABC News report saying Limbaugh took money out of the bank in increments just under 10,000, a limit that would have required the bank to report the transaction. This is Mr. Limbaugh's third day back on the air after completing his drug rehab.

A white convertible with a red leather interior is on sale at E- Bay tonight, the asking price a million bucks. The car's place in history -- it was the last car President John F. Kennedy got out of while he was still alive. President Kennedy rode in the car in a motorcade in Fort Worth, Texas, on the morning of his assassination 40 years ago on Saturday.

It's now up to lawyers for convicted sniper John Allen Muhammad to persuade a jury to save his life. The prosecution rested today in its part of the penalty phase in Mr. Muhammad's case, following some chilling testimony from his ex-wife. CNN's Jeanne Meserve has been covering this one from the start in Virginia Beach, and Jeanne joins us tonight. Jeanne, good evening.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Aaron. Mildred Muhammad testified that John Muhammad threatened her repeatedly after their separation, saying to her at one point, "Just know this, you have become my enemy, and as my enemy, I will kill you." Today in court, sheriff's deputies drew around her whenever John Muhammad drew near. She brought to Virginia Beach letters to John Muhammad from their three children. Those were read aloud in court today. And she also quoted their 10-year-old daughter, Taalibah, as saying to her, "Mom, I know if Dad gets out, that means he is going to will kill you, and I don't want to live the rest of my life without my mommy."

The jurors heard that. They did not hear what John, Jr., said to his mother. She quoted him as saying, "If Dad takes you out, then I am going to have to take him out."

There was extraordinarily emotional victim impact testimony today from friends and family of Dean Meyers. His killing is the one is central to this case. His brother, Larry, described him as a glass- half-full kind of guy whose death has left a void in the family and in the world. The testimony reduced several of the jurors to tears. There also was defense testimony today, people who said that John Muhammad was a good father, a good friend, a good worker. A former girlfriend of his testified. She described him as a caring and a generous man, and she said to the jury, "His life will always have value. He is a person who has so much to give."

It is, of course, his life and death that this jury is considering. Aaron, back to you.

BROWN: Jeanne, thank you very much -- Jeanne Meserve in a wet Virginia Beach tonight.

Defense attorneys for Muhammad's alleged accomplice, Lee Boyd Malvo, are pursuing an insanity defense of a kind for their client. It's the same kind of offense that helped get John Hinckley, Jr., acquitted after he tried to kill President Reagan. Mr. Hinckley was in court this week, asking for unsupervised visits with his parents, which brings us to the question of the night, whether the insanity defense system is broken.

We're joined by Mickey, Sherman, a prominent defense attorney, and also joined by Dirk Olin, who's the national editor of "American Lawyer" magazine. It's good to see you both. Mr. Olin, actually -- actually, like (UNINTELLIGIBLE) incapable of it otherwise -- Mr. Olin has a really interesting theory I want to get to.

Mickey, I want to start with you for a second. Do you accept the notion that the insanity defense in this country is broken?

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's not broken, it just ain't being used. It's just ineffective. It was essentially killed, I think, by the Hinckley case, by the Harvey Milk case, the "Twinkie defense" out in San Francisco. And if it didn't exist in the Andrea Yates case, the woman who tragically drowned her children -- she was found sane. So was Jeffrey Dahmer found sane. We don't want to hear it. We, the American public, don't want to hear the insanity defense anymore.

BROWN: And just one more question before I turn this to Mr. Olin -- the insanity defense in this country essentially comes down to a question: Does the person know the difference between right and wrong? That's the only real question, isn't it?

SHERMAN: It's supposed to be, but in reality, it comes down to whether or not a jury has the compassion or the intelligence or the wherewithal to say, You know what? I trust the mental health people to watch this guy for the rest of his life. So that's why we're going to find him not guilty by reason of insanity. And the public does not have that trust.

BROWN: OK. Let me turn to Mr. Olin because it seems to me Mr. Sherman made the argument that it's broken, even while arguing that it was not, because if Andrea Yates or Jeffrey Dahmer is not insane, then honestly, I don't know insanity. And what you're arguing is, Take this out of the conventional courtroom.

DIRK OLIN, NATIONAL EDITOR, "THE AMERICAN LAWYER": Well, that's right, Aaron. I mean, Mickey's right in -- to the extent that this is a rarely invoked defense. Something like...

BROWN: A rarely successful defense.

OLIN: Both. Less than 1 percent of criminal defendants ever turn to this defense, and less than a quarter of those are even successful. He's right in that regard. What he's wrong about is that the fundaments of the system are part of the problem. It's absurdly adjudicated, as he pointed out, and that's partly due to sort of socio-political changes in the wake of the Hinckley verdict. But it's also illogically constructed, and it's just plain unfair in its administration. BROWN: And what you'd like to see is not jurors making this judgment about whether the defendant is sane or not sane...

OLIN: Well, look, we have a system in place now in many states and in many criminal trials, where we decide the standing of competency of the defendant prior to the trial. Very often, a judge will take the advice of psychiatric professionals and determine whether or not this person is competent to stand trial. This essentially would expand that idea.

When somebody wants to basically use the legal doctrine to say, I did this, but I was not volitional, I did not have the capacity to do this with evil or wrongful intent, then yes, we move that to a psychiatric panel, where these people -- in the 150 years since this rule was first conceived in Great Britain, the psychiatric profession has made tremendous advances, and we see lots and lots more of this kind of expert counsel being used by the bench. It's used on the civil side in dauberd (ph) matters, as Mickey knows, and -- which basically involves really technical civil cases, and it has the possibility, I think, to restore faith in a system that a lot of people feel is hijacked too often.

BROWN: Why not?

SHERMAN: I don't buy it. First of all, then why do we have a situation when we're using an insanity defense, that both sides hire psychiatrists? The reason is because two psychiatrists give two different views. They are not uniform. There's no great standard. They're very opinionated.

BROWN: But look, there...

SHERMAN: I don't want professional jury.

BROWN: I understand that. And that's -- that's a fair point. But there are, in fact, cases where even the prosecution's psychiatrist will say, This person is insane. They're insane. I think that came up in the guy who went into the Capitol a few years back and shot up some people.

SHERMAN: But it still should be up to a jury, a jury of your peers, not professional people, people who come from all walks of life. I would much rather have...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: ... you can't win those cases. You can't win an Andrea Yates, you can't win a Hinckley, you can't win those cases because, as you said, jurors want nothing to do with it.

SHERMAN: It's not the mechanism, it's the climate. And maybe that will change. Maybe, as people have more confidence in the system -- and they're not going to get it by putting psychiatrists or other professional jurors on a jury.

OLIN: I respectfully... BROWN: Mr. Olin, last word -- 20 seconds.

OLIN: I respectfully disagree. I mean, I think that the problem is the system, and the lack of faith in the system is precisely due to the fact that people feel they can't get a legitimate verdict in these kinds of highly pressured and high- temperature cases.

BROWN: Appreciate your thoughts. Good to see you both. Thanks for coming in. Mickey Sherman and Dirk Olin, nice to have you with us tonight.

One of the deadliest diseases on the planet. We'll meet the first person to volunteer to take an experimental vaccine against Ebola.

And the battle of women's glossies. The rising star in the magazine world spurs the "thin is in" look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The Ebola virus has ravaged parts of Africa. It's feared as a potential terrorist weapon. But scientists have taken what could be a major step in fighting it. A volunteer just yesterday was injected with a new Ebola vaccine that6 is being test6ed by the National Institutes of Health. That brave person is Steve Rucker, who joins us tonight from Washington. With him, Dr. Anthony Fauci, who's the head of infectious diseases at NIH. It's good to see you both.

This is at a number of levels, to me, at least, a fascinating story. Mr. Rucker, let me start with you. Do you feel like a brave young man for doing this?

STEVE RUCKER, VACCINE VOLUNTEER: I'm not sure it was so much bravery. I saw an opportunity to do something important. I looked at the risks, educated myself, as any volunteer should do, and took the opportunity.

BROWN: And the risks are what?

RUCKER: The risks -- really, there weren't any. There weren't any significant risks. The scientists and the VRC (ph) staff were very patient with me, going over the risks. And I was convinced this was a very safe vaccine for me. I was very comfortable taking it, and there have been no problems.

BROWN: Dr. Fauci, what are the risks here?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: Well...

BROWN: There have got to be some risks. There's risks in everything.

FAUCI: Indeed. And that's the reason why we have to do what we call a phase one trial to show safety. But this particular type of a vaccine, the first thing you have to clarify is that this isn't the Ebola virus. This is a genetically modified, in the sense of -- not modified, but taking a DNA or the gene of a particular protein of this virus and injecting it into Steve. And then his body is now going to make antibodies very safely against the components of Ebola that he would then ultimately, hopefully, be protected, were he ever to come into contact.

The risks for him are fundamentally a local inflammatory response. Extraordinarily unlikely that there'll be anything else because of the nature of the fact of how purified this particular DNA is and the fact that it has nothing to do at all with a replicating Ebola, which is the first thing people think of...

BROWN: Yes.

FAUCI: ... when you're talking about an Ebola vaccine. They say, Oh, my goodness. He's getting vaccinated with Ebola.

BROWN: Right.

FAUCI: He's getting vaccinated with a very, very highly purified component of Ebola that cannot possibly infect him.

BROWN: So let me just ask what is perhaps a really dumb layperson's question. Does this trick the body into thinking it has Ebola in it?

FAUCI: Absolutely. In fact, that's the fundamental strategy and philosophy of all vaccine, to trick the body into thinking they've actually been infected with a particular microbe. In fact, some vaccines go so far as to be vaccines that are live but very weakened or attenuated.

BROWN: Yes.

FAUCI: We would never do that with Ebola right now because it is a virus that's so deadly. And that's the reason why what we do is, we get to the safest possible modality of vaccination of the individual. And in this case, it was taking a small, little snippet of the gene of the virus and injecting it in, so that the protein would then express itself. And there'd be nothing but protein. It would not be virus.

BROWN: I want to try to get a couple more things in here. Mr. Rucker, how did they go about -- how did you get the honor, if that's what this is, did you get the honor for being the subject of this test?

RUCKER: I suppose you could say it was right place, right time. It was an honor that I actually -- that I wanted. It was an opportunity to really make a difference in a small but powerful way, and I was very pleased to have it. I would certainly encourage other people to seek out a little bit of that same privilege, to be part of this little piece of history.

BROWN: Have you been -- I guess -- I think if someone gave me a shot like that under these circumstances, I would be unbelievably aware of every change in my body over the last 24 hours. Have you been? RUCKER: I've been paying closer attention, and I'm pleased to report I've been fine, actually. But I'm with you. Yes, I've been paying close attention.

BROWN: And Doc, let me give you the last word here. The importance of finding a vaccine for Ebola is what?

FAUCI: Well, it's two-fold. One is that Ebola sporadically evolves and bursts out in small mini-epidemics in sub-Saharan Africa. So there's a real natural emersion (ph) of Ebola, and we've seen it in different countries in Central Africa. But importantly for those of us here in the United States, it's among the very small list of agents that we're concerned about in the arena of bioterrorism. It's one of the hemorrhagic fevers. So to get a vaccine that could protect citizens against Ebola, either preemptively protecting health workers, or if there ever is an Ebola attack, to vaccinate the contacts of people who get infected with Ebola, is a tremendous step forward...

BROWN: Yes.

FAUCI: ... in protecting the country against one of the major microbes of bioterrorism.

BROWN: Doc, thanks for your time. It's good to see you again.

FAUCI: Good to be here.

BROWN: And Steve, thank you -- at a couple of levels -- for your willingness to take the shot and to come on the program and talk about it. Thank you both.

RUCKER: Thank you.

BROWN: The new look of the glossy pages of women's magazines. Happy faces. Oh, my goodness! Models who aren't real thin. What could this all mean? Is it the shape of things to come?

But first, a look at eight plans unveiled today in the competition to design a 9/11 memorial at the World Trade Center in downtown New York. Finalist entries were chosen from the more than 5,000 submitted.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: This may be a refreshing sign of honesty or a sign that the Apocalypse is, in fact, upon us. A women's magazine comes right out and admit's it's all about shopping. "Lucky" says it's trying to give women what they want. A bit change, I guess, from fashion books with razor-thin, unsmiling models. Which do women want in their magazines? Maybe they want both.

We're joined by Kim France, the editor-in-chief of "Lucky," and Mary Alice Stephenson -- is it "Stevenson" or "Stephenson," by the way?

MARY ALICE STEPHENSON, STYLE COMMENTATOR: "Stevenson." BROWN: "Stevenson" -- I'm sorry -- a style commentator and freelance fashion editor. Nice to see you both.

The magazine, I guess, as women in the audience probably know this -- it is essentially about shopping.

KIM FRANCE, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "LUCKY": It is precisely about shopping.

BROWN: There are no articles in it. Right?

FRANCE: No. Nothing.

BROWN: It's just page after page of products and what they cost?

FRANCE: Yes. That was -- that was essentially the idea. I didn't think there was room -- if we were going to launch another magazine, I didn't think we should launch another magazine that had all the other stuff in it because what was the purpose? There were already plenty of those. What I wanted was a magazine that had information about the stuff I wanted and where to go get it, which was something that I couldn't find in the fashion magazines that were out there. They had...

BROWN: Because the fashion magazines are real hoity-toity, you know, $10,000 dresses and that sort of stuff? Is that the idea?

FRANCE: Well, there's a lot of that. There is a lot of that. There's a beautiful $10,000 dress that only comes in a size 2, that they only maybe made one of. And first it makes the rounds and goes to "Vogue" and then goes to "Bazaar" and then goes to "Elle," and they never actually produced it for anyone. And it can be a frustrating experience for those women who are actually looking for something to go buy.

BROWN: And just so people don't think this is all kind of wacky, you're selling a lot of magazines.

FRANCE: We are. We are now in our third year at 900,000 circulation.

BROWN: Mary Alice, tell me why you think this is successful.

STEPHENSON: I think women don't dress head to toe in one designer. They splurge on some things and spend a little bit of money on others. So women want options, and "Lucky" is great because it provides those options. But I don't think it's -- I don't think it has to be separated. I think they also want fantasy. They want to look at magazines like "Bazaar," "Vogue"...

BROWN: That's what I was going to say. It seems to me that in the one case, you have a magazine that is about reality, and that in the "Vogues" of the world, to the extent that I know anything about the "Vogues" in the world, when I walk by them in airports and on newsstands, they're about a kind of unattainable fantasy. STEPHENSON: Well, I think, you know "Harper's Bazaar" and American "Vogue" have a lot of different price points in the magazine. They have to now. Women, you know, they don't spend as much money on certain things, so...

BROWN: Yes.

STEPHENSON: But women want to fantasize. They want to see how it's put together, and then they'll turn to "Lucky" to see their options. So they want a great black dress. They don't have to necessarily buy a Valentino and spend $2,000, they can find five different kind of black dresses at lot cheaper in "Lucky."

BROWN: And you don't feel any need to put in the magazine articles, like "10 Ways to Please Your Man" or "10 Ways to Know Your Guy Is Cheating" or any of those things.

FRANCE: I looked at the way my husband read his golf magazine. There's a lot of interests that a man who reads a golf magazine has, but he only expects to read about golf in a golf magazine. And I thought the women who read "Lucky" have a lot of other interests. They might play -- you know, they might play golf. They might be very interested in literature. They might be very sophisticated, interesting people, but they only expect to read about shopping there. It's -- one of the examples I use all the time, actually, is if I want to know about news, I'll turn on CNN. If I want to read movie reviews, I'll read "The New Yorker." I don't need to get that information in a magazine.

BROWN: I think that's really smart. Just in half a minute or so -- does it tell us anything about a changing culture, or is it just somebody figured out a really smart niche to work through?

STEPHENSON: I think it's a little bit of both. Women nowadays don't have a lot of time to shop, so they want to go to one place -- it's like the shopping bible -- find out all their options. They can just call up the store and get it sent to them -- because a lot of us are working or we're too busy in other parts of our lives.

BROWN: We certainly are. Thank you. Nice to meet you both. Congratulations. That's a really interesting idea.

And thank you for being with us tonight. Paula's back tomorrow. I'll be back tonight on "NEWSNIGHT" an hour from now, right after "LARRY KING LIVE," which is next. Good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Morning; Was This a Bad Week for Democratic Presidential Candidates?>


Aired November 19, 2003 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: In focus tonight. Police issues an arrest warrant for Michael Jackson on multiply accounts of child molestation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We would encourage him to turn himself in and cooperate with law enforcement.

ANNOUNCER: Al Qaeda's big shift in strategy and how it's pushing the threat level even higher all over the world.

And the city of brotherly love and it's bid to be the next big gay travel mecca.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AARON BROWN, GUEST HOST: Good evening, again, I'm Aaron Brown, Paula is off tonight.

Also ahead tonight, presidential politics. Joe Klein joins us to tell us why it is a miserable week for the Democratic candidates.

And the insanity defense this week in one of the sniper trials and in John Hinckley's attempt to get unsupervised visits with his parents.

We'll debate if the insanity defense in America needs fixing.

Plus we'll talk to a man who has made medical history. The first person to take a vaccine against the Ebola virus, one of the deadly diseases on the planet.

Also, are we witnessing a big change in the world of women's magazines?

Is perky and happy replacing rail thin and sour. Who better to ask those questions.

But first, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.

A royal toast for President Bush. Mr. Bush and the first lady took a meal at Buckingham Palace with the queen tonight. The dinner rounded out the first official day of the president's visit to Britain, which has been met with some protesting.

U.S. Canadian task force lays most of the blame on an Ohio power company for this summer's massive North American blackout. The commission says the blackout began when three power lines in Ohio failed and operators at First Energy a company that's had problems didn't react properly to contain the problem. About 50 million people ended up in the dark.

In West Virginia today, emergency crews are using boats to rescue people stranded by flooding. Dozen counties there under a state of emergency. The governor says more will be added to the list as the storm system moves through the region.

Those are the headline's tonight.

We lead with the case against the king of pop. Earlier today a warrant was issued for the arrest of Michael Jackson. He is facing multiple counts of child molestation, one child involved. Allegations Mr. Jackson says are false. CNN's Frank Buckley starts us off. He is live in Santa Barbara, California.

Frank, good evening.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron, and we've been reporting based on some information from a knowledgeable source that's been shooting straight with us in the past that Michael Jackson will be arriving here in Santa Barbara tomorrow morning to turn himself in to authorities. But let me show you some live pictures right now provided by local television stations who are over the Santa Barbara Municipal Airport in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) where they are showing scenes of several unmarked, what appear to be police car and one marked black and white that appears to be a Santa Barbara sheriff vehicle.

Local news reporting that Michael Jackson has already landed here in the Santa Barbara area, that is not independently confirmed by CNN. Whenever Michael Jackson arrives here back in Santa Barbara County, he will be booked on multiple counts of child molestation. According to local authorities who confirm today that the search that was conducted at the Neverland Ranch yesterday here in Santa Barbara County and also the arrest warrant that was issued for Michael Jackson was in connection with allegations of child molestation. Also, two additional search warrants were issued in Los Angeles. Michael Jackson has been accused of child molestation in the past. In 1993 he was not charged with that, he maintained his innocence. The case was settled in a civil settlement. This time, authorities say, it will be different.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no civil case filed and there is no anticipation that there will be a civil case filed in this particular case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim will be required to testify, even if there were a civil settlement of some case. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BUCKLEY: And we should tell you that a spokesman for Michael Jackson issued a statement today, the outrageous allegations against Michael Jackson are false. Michael would never harm a child in any way. These (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and totally unfounded allegations will be proven false in a courtroom. Michael has already made arrangements with the district attorney to return to Santa Barbara to confront and prove these charges unfounded.

Aaron, so that's the situation right now. All of us awaiting Michael Jackson's arrival back here in Santa Barbara County.

BROWN: He either is or is not on that plane, but obviously media in Southern California believe he is. Frank, thank you. We'll talk to you later tonight. Frank Buckley, on Santa Barbara.

We turn now to three people who can shed some light on the details of all of this that has emerged over the last couple of days. First from Anaheim, California, Brian Oxman, a friend of the Jackson family and attorney, as well.

From Santa Barbara tonight, we're joined by Court TV reporter Diane Dimond. Ms. Dimond has been working on this story really hard for a really long time and really well. She broke the news of the first allegations of child molestation against Michael Jackson 10 years ago.

Also in Santa Barbara, Michael Bryant, the legal correspondent for the TV program "Extra."

Mr. Bryant was at the Neverland Ranch yesterday when police searched the property. We're glad to all of you.

Ms. Dimond, when did these allegations first emerge?

How long has this been going on?

DIANE DIMOND, COURT TV REPORTER: The allegations, I first heard about the allegations from my sources about three months ago, maybe not quite that long ago. These are very new allegations and it took them a while to get the family protected, to get the proper search warrants and arrest warrants and I'll make one correction to what you said. The arrest warrant was not issued today. When they knocked on the door at Neverland Ranch yesterday, they had the arrest warrant in their hand, according to Tom Steden (ph), I got an interview with him. They were ready to arrest Michael Jackson on the spot, had he been there.

BROWN: And just for our viewers, on the right side of our screen, that is a private jet that may or may not be holding Mr. Jackson. He was in Las Vegas doing a video of some sort and there is some thought he flew back to the Santa Barbara area.

Mr. Bryant, what do you know about the young man making the allegation? MICHAEL BRYANT, EXTRA: Well, it's interesting, and Diane mentioned her timeline which is sqaures somewhat with the timeline I have from my source suggesting a young man went into an L.A. lawfirm seeking representation two to three months ago. And although that firm did not take the case, that child and his family were refered to the district attorney's office to pursue the matter.

If that time line is consistent with everything we have heard and everything we have heard, since I learned that yesterday morning is consistent, then we're talking about the same person. I'm more concerned we're talking about a different person. There may be another victim out there. And there was one statement made in the press conference today that I think is bit telling, it was Sheriff Anderson when virtually every question asked by the press that was not going to be touched was answered in this way. We can't say anything about that. We can't say anything about this. But one question answered differently, was are there other victims that are part of an investigation?

He said, no comment.

DIMOND: No that's not what the question was. That's not what the question was. It was, do you think there might be other victims out there to which this sheriff said, yes. Like, you know, there might be. I took that...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Hang on, guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm talking about the no comment remark.

BROWN: I don't want to bog down on this point, OK. Let me just try to find a couple -- let me satisfy my own curiosity for a couple more minutes here.

Do we know, Mr. Bryant, do we know how the young man ended up in proximity to Michael Jackson?

BRYANT: Well, we know the theories that are out there, there are obviously no official confirmation, some say it was through a relationship that began as many have allegedly have where he invited the child to the property, he the parents were involved and they got to know one another and things devolved from there. We have already heard how wine might have been used to ply the young boy and basically a seduction took place. None of that is confirmed, though.

BROWN: I understand. Ms. Dimond, can you add to that?

Do you know anything about the circumstances about this young man who making the allegation to the ranch in the first place?

DIMOND: I do, Aaron, I will tell you that I've covered this story for so long and covered a lot of child molesting stories and I want to say it does us absolutely no good to reveal this child's identity and, remember, this is a child. This child... BROWN: Diane, I'm not asking for his identity. I'm asking for the circumstances.

DIMOND: I understand. It's out there, it's already on the Web site with other news organizations. And I don't want to go there, but, yes. What you just heard, I've heard, too. I get it from top law enforcement sources that there was alcohol involved. And that Neverland was used as a lure.

BROWN: Got it. I'm not asking his name. I have no interest in his name. Thank you.

Mr. Oxman, let's get you in here.

Have you talked to the family at all?

What's going on over the last 48 hours?

BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: The Jackson family is extremely upset by all this commotion and the storm which is going on. And there's no question about it that they view it with concern. But what we saw today is even of greater concern and that is a press conference where the District Attorney is really leaking information utilizing Ms. Dimond as the source. She tells us about alcohol, no one else knows about that...

DIMOND: I resent that untruth.

BROWN: Diane, we'll get to you, thank you.

OXMAN: It is wrong. It's absolutely wrong. We're hearing about when this child is through Diane Diamond. We're hearing about the allegations.

DIMOND: You are absolutely incorrect and you're embarrassing yourself by what you're saying.

OXMAN: It is wrong. It is not the ethical way by which a prosecutor proceeds to have a journalist accompany them to a search of Neverland Ranch. The prosecutor has stars in their eyes of Hollywood. And when they have these kinds of stars of publicity, they are blinded by the light. And I think that's what is going to happen here and that's exactly what happened here.

BROWN: Mr. Oxman, thank you. Just again for people just joining us. One of these private jets on the runway outside of Santa Barbara is believed to be carrying Mr. Jackson, perhaps it's even the one taxiing.

Whether he will be arrested there or will surrender tomorrow morning as we anticipated, we don't yet know. We'll just keep an eye on it. Now, Ms. Dimond, let's get back to you. Since your name was thrown around a fair amount.

DIMOND: You can just call me Diane.

BROWN: Do you want to react to what Mr. Oxman said?

DIMOND: Mr. Oxman said so many things that are incorrect, I don't even know where to start...

BROWN: Well, pick one.

DIMOND: I think he would be embarrassed to say some of these things. First of all, I did not go on the search with the district attorney. What is he talking about? Second, I'm not being used as a tool to reveal anything about this child. I condemn any reporter who puts this child's name or information about this child out there. It's unnecessary to this story. And it's hurtful and mean and I have read Michael Jackson's disclaimers all day long on my Court TV network.

So, Mr. Oxman is engaging in exactly what the Jacksons always do. They attack the people who say things they don't like to hear. It happened in 1993, it happened in '94 and it's happening again and now I'm the target. How ridiculous is that?

BROWN: Let me bring in one more voice because I guess that's probably what we need at this point, one more voice. Jeffrey Toobin is us with, our legal analyst. Just -- I'll get to some of these other issues that matter, but were you at all uncomfortable by the tone of that news conference today?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It was weird. It was definitely weird. This laughter at times, this sort of jocular nature. There was a question at the end that both of them, that various people have referred to earlier about are there other people out there who have had their stories suppressed and the D.A., I believe, said, yes I think so. It's different being a D.A. than it is being a talk show guest. I mean you can't speculate. You can't be...

OXMAN: Something we regretted for a long time.

TOOBIN: They are supposed to operate by different rules and I thought it was odd and inappropriate and I thought they would be better off with a different tone.

BROWN: A more substantive legal question, since that's what we pay your around here to do, is a -- these things basically come down to he said he said?

TOOBIN: They don't, by and large. That is obviously a major part of the case, but the reason they're searching for, they're searching Neverland is they want cooperation. Are there videotapes or photographs, other witnesses? What about the people who worked at Neverland, what did they see, if anything? What about this kid, does he have any injuries? Who did he report it to first? How long after the first incident, if there is an incident, did he report it? Did he go back? Those are real practical legal, evidentiary questions that this case will turn on.

BROWN: Mr. Bryant, do you know anything about what police either were looking for when they executed these warrants, or what they took away?

BRYANT: We believe what they were looking for and what they found were computers, software, videotapes. We believe they took more than a million photos with them when they left, either in the form of hard photos or...

BROWN: A million?

BRYANT: A million, yes. Hard photos and/or computer images and a computer can store, you know, a million photos without a whole lot of effort.

BROWN: Michel, let me interrupt you for a second, because on the other side of our screen our viewers or now full screen our viewers can see that Gulfsteam taxiing down the runway outside -- at a private airport, a private airport outside of Santa Barbara. And it's taken off. And it's going somewhere. And truth be told, we don't know. And we don't know if Mr. Jackson is on it, or got off it. But we'll find out, or at least we'll try.

Mr. Bryant, I interrupted you, I apologize.

BRYANT: No problem. In addition to those items, we believe that there were maybe some drawings. Anything, I hate to put it this way, anything that would fit into a pedophile kit. I mean, we heard these stories many time: computer pornography, books, images, videotapes. I know, Brian Oxman, how are you, haven't talked to you in a bit, I know your position is this is all very innocent material.

OXMAN: Michael maintains a library of his entire history going back to the time he was 8 years old, of literally a million photographs at his house at Neverland Ranch. He has thousands of videotape, not only of commercially prepared videos, but also of the family and his Christmas vacations, his Thanksgivings and the family coming together. It will take literally months and months for police to go through these things. They're extraordinarily entertaining and interesting, but we doubt whether there's going to be anything of interest to this prosecution in any of that material.

BROWN: Mr. Oxman, let me ask you and Jeff Toobin a kind of practical legal question. In your case, you have a friend who has a reputation who, we all believe, went through these allegations one time before, who settled the case, who, I think, most people find it a bit odd, perhaps more than a bit odd. How difficult do you think it's going to be for him to get a fair trial once that happens?

OXMAN: The question of fair trial really resolves around the kind of publicity that we have. This is promising to be the biggest case and the biggest story of the year 2003. And that means, as it develops, it could eclipse the Iraqi War as being the biggest story of the year. If it does...

BROWN: I hope not.

OXMAN: Count me on hoping not, as well. I absolutely hope not, too, but that's where it appears to me, it might be going. If that's the case, fair trial becomes a real serious issue.

BROWN: I would think, Jeffrey, that even if it doesn't become bigger than war and bigger than all these other things, bigger than the one we did a few years back, Mr. Simpson, the question of fair trial in the case of Michael Jackson is a particularly knotty one because of some of the things they talked about. Even if you set aside the previous allegation, the fact that he strikes people as a little bit odd.

TOOBIN: As a little bit odd, what's especially odd and difficult about the Michael Jackson situation, it's not like the Laci Peterson case, where the attention was concentrated heavily in one place in Modesto. I don't think people in Santa Barbara have a significantly different attitude towards Michael Jackson than they do in Los Angeles.

It is a nationwide, certainly statewide problem. That's why I don't think a change of venue would do much good at all here. I think it's just a big, big problem. You can be sure, if this case goes to trial, the jury selection will be an incredibly difficult, time- consuming task as jurors are studied for they're attitudes about Michael Jackson, because frankly, a lot of people have a lot of attitudes about him.

BROWN: Thank you for coming in, Jeffrey and the rest. Thank you for joining us -- always interesting time. This will be interesting to watch play out. And Mr. Oxman, if you're right, it will be a heck of a story over the next year or so. Thank you, all, for joining us.

Joe Klein coming up to talk about why it's been a tough week for the Democrats as they head towards the 2004 presidential election. Are they losing control of issues like energy and healthcare, gay rights and gay marriage?

Also tonight, a debate, as John Hinckley the man who tried to kill president Reagan is in court fighting for some more freedom, is the insanity defense in the country broken?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Here now to presidential politics. Haven't been a good week for the Democrats, many believe. The party has led the fight for Medicare and prescription drug coverage for decades and that may have been pulled out from under them this week. The economy seems to be getting better and then the decision on gay marriage in Massachusetts, which may create some problems for Democratic candidates, as well. Joe Klein from "Time" magazine, regular contributor of ours is here to talk about that.

I want to talk about Medicare first because I think this is the big one. The Democrats are in, to my thinking, you've never been afraid to tell me I'm wrong, a terrible box here. The box got tighter when the AARP signed on. JOE KLEIN, PAULA ZAHN NOW CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, the American Association of Retired People. One of the biggest lobbies there and usually a fairly safe liberal lobby came out in favor of the prescription drug benefit which the Democrats have been for since before forever. In fact, they have used this issue to hammer Republicans in campaign after campaign after campaign.

BROWN: This is kind of Clinton-ish in a sense in the way that Clinton sees crime and welfare reform.

KLEIN: That's right. That's right. You know, the Republicans this week, the Bush administration spending like drunken sailors between the Medicare bill and the energy bill, but in terms of Medicare, even if it doesn't pass the Senate, which it is likely to do, by the way, even if it doesn't pass, Bush will be able to look at five of the six main Democratic candidates and say, why did you oppose prescription drugs for seniors?

And the reasons why they did is because they are against a reform of the Medicare system, which is now a fee for service plan which means anybody who want to go to the doctor can go to the doctor and get whatever they want. What's going to have to happen with Medicare because it is such an expensive program and there are so many of us. It's going to be the same kind of...

BROWN: There are so many of us who are getting old fast.

KLEIN: Yes. Speak for yourself, but in any case, well, I'm -- in any case, what's going to have to happen is that Medicare is going to have to become like the rest of health care. It will have to be HMOs, PPOs, managed care if we're going to keep the cost contained. The Democrats are against that.

BROWN: Democrats, at best, lose an issue that would have been their issue. They gain one they'd rather not have and that's the issue of gay marriage.

How big an issue do you think this is going to be? The Republican's like this issue, don't they?

KLEIN: They like the issue but they can't like it too much. If they push too hard on it, people are going to be offended. It's the kind of thing where it will fly just slightly under the radar screen. The Democrats all are in favor of civil unions, which is a euphemism for gay marriage. And the polls right now say that the public doesn't like gay marriage by about 60/40.

BROWN: Do you think they can make the distinction between gay marriage...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Yes. Yes. And say, well, no, what we're actually in favor of making sure that people who are in committed relationships, whether they gay or straight, have the same property rights and legal rights and that sort of thing. KLEIN: Look, I think there's a strong rational case to be made for that. And a case very popular among people under the age of 30 however, it's very unpopular among people over the age of 65. Those people tend to vote. The young people tend not to.

BROWN: Meanwhile, the economy continues to get better by all reports.

KLEIN: By some reports, but we'll see how it goes. There are some conflicting signals.

BROWN: Good to see you.

KLEIN: Good to see you.

BROWN: Joe Klein with us tonight. Thank you very much.

As the United States continues its hunt for Osama bin Laden, some intelligence experts believe al Qaeda has gone underground. A strategy shift that could make the world a more dangerous place. We'll have a report coming up.

And the changing face of women's magazines, perky and cheerful, vs. sour.

What do women really want from the newsstand?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, as if the ongoing terrorist threat attacks by al Qaeda isn't enough, some intelligence experts believe that Osama bin Laden's terrorist group is farming out some of its deadly operations.

CNN's Maria Ressa, reports on what seems to be a shift in al Qaeda strategy.

MARIA RESSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two Turkish synagogues bombed, 25 dead, more than 300 wounded and it's just one example of how al Qaeda works today, using affiliates to do its dirty work, like here in Southeast Asia. For more then seven years, this sleepy town in Malaysia was al Qaeda's terror HQ. From this hub, regional intelligence officials tell CNN, Jemaah Islamiyah -- or JI -- al Qaeda's arm in this part of the world, quietly created a system of Islamic schools which provided new recruits and sent its members to al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan, built replica camps in the southern Philippines and plotted future attacks. JI's goal was to overthrow regional governments and create one giant Islamic state stretching from the Philippines to Malaysia and Indonesia to the northern tip of Australia.

Under the radar screen of much of the West, al Qaeda peddled the same dream to other associate groups around the world, uniting Muslim grievances under its radical ideology.

TONY TAN, DEP. PRIME MINISTER, SINGAPORE: The type of terrorism which we are facing is more akin to the communist movement, which rises from a belief that it's their destiny to change the world.

RESSA: Beginning in 1998, al Qaeda carried out one major attack each year. But after it was pushed out of Afghanistan in 2001 and thousands of its operatives arrested, analysts says, it turned to its associates around the world.

ROHAN GUNARATNA, AUTHOR, "INSIDE AL QAEDA": Al Qaeda is able to replenish their human losses and their material wastage (ph) and continue the fight because it has effectively established links with local and regional Islamist terrorist groups.

RESSA: After Afghanistan, these groups, government officials say, have carried out attacks in places like Yemen, Jordan, Kenya, Russia, Indonesia, India, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Morocco and the Philippines. Although the attacks seem independent of each other, they carry al Qaeda's stamp, analysts add.

Take four days last May, when al Qaeda carried out multiple large-scale operations, most suicide bombings, in four different countries. More important, the worst attacks have taken place in Muslim nations like Indonesia and Saudi Arabia, where governments tolerated the presence of al Qaeda-linked terrorists. Galvanizing these nations into action is important, officials says, because the front line of the war on terror is in every Muslim community between a radical minority and a moderate majority.

LEE KUAN YEW, SINGAPORE SENIOR MINISTER: The radicals have their program. The moderates don't have a program. They are in power. The radicals want to seize power from the moderates. They will actually -- they must collide.

RESSA: The non-Muslim world, Lee adds, must help the moderates win.

(on camera): Regional intelligence officials tell CNN Jemaah Islamiyah, al Qaeda's arm in Southeast Asia, continues to plan more attacks for December to April. Training continues in the southern Philippines. That situation, analysts say, is replicated in many al Qaeda-linked groups around the world, making the threat level higher than ever.

Maria Ressa, CNN, Manila.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up on the program, a debate tonight over the insanity defense, as two cases hit the news this week, one of the sniper suspects, and then there's John Hinckley, Jr., the man who shot President Reagan.

And we'll meet the first man to volunteer for a test of a vaccine for one of the most deadly diseases in the world, Ebola.

Tomorrow on the program, New York Yankees manager Joe Torre, his very personal story of growing up with an abusive father.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Here are some of the other headlines you need to know right now. Radio host Rush Limbaugh is strongly denying suggestions, allegations he was involved in money laundering to buy prescription drugs. This started with an ABC News report saying Limbaugh took money out of the bank in increments just under 10,000, a limit that would have required the bank to report the transaction. This is Mr. Limbaugh's third day back on the air after completing his drug rehab.

A white convertible with a red leather interior is on sale at E- Bay tonight, the asking price a million bucks. The car's place in history -- it was the last car President John F. Kennedy got out of while he was still alive. President Kennedy rode in the car in a motorcade in Fort Worth, Texas, on the morning of his assassination 40 years ago on Saturday.

It's now up to lawyers for convicted sniper John Allen Muhammad to persuade a jury to save his life. The prosecution rested today in its part of the penalty phase in Mr. Muhammad's case, following some chilling testimony from his ex-wife. CNN's Jeanne Meserve has been covering this one from the start in Virginia Beach, and Jeanne joins us tonight. Jeanne, good evening.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Aaron. Mildred Muhammad testified that John Muhammad threatened her repeatedly after their separation, saying to her at one point, "Just know this, you have become my enemy, and as my enemy, I will kill you." Today in court, sheriff's deputies drew around her whenever John Muhammad drew near. She brought to Virginia Beach letters to John Muhammad from their three children. Those were read aloud in court today. And she also quoted their 10-year-old daughter, Taalibah, as saying to her, "Mom, I know if Dad gets out, that means he is going to will kill you, and I don't want to live the rest of my life without my mommy."

The jurors heard that. They did not hear what John, Jr., said to his mother. She quoted him as saying, "If Dad takes you out, then I am going to have to take him out."

There was extraordinarily emotional victim impact testimony today from friends and family of Dean Meyers. His killing is the one is central to this case. His brother, Larry, described him as a glass- half-full kind of guy whose death has left a void in the family and in the world. The testimony reduced several of the jurors to tears. There also was defense testimony today, people who said that John Muhammad was a good father, a good friend, a good worker. A former girlfriend of his testified. She described him as a caring and a generous man, and she said to the jury, "His life will always have value. He is a person who has so much to give."

It is, of course, his life and death that this jury is considering. Aaron, back to you.

BROWN: Jeanne, thank you very much -- Jeanne Meserve in a wet Virginia Beach tonight.

Defense attorneys for Muhammad's alleged accomplice, Lee Boyd Malvo, are pursuing an insanity defense of a kind for their client. It's the same kind of offense that helped get John Hinckley, Jr., acquitted after he tried to kill President Reagan. Mr. Hinckley was in court this week, asking for unsupervised visits with his parents, which brings us to the question of the night, whether the insanity defense system is broken.

We're joined by Mickey, Sherman, a prominent defense attorney, and also joined by Dirk Olin, who's the national editor of "American Lawyer" magazine. It's good to see you both. Mr. Olin, actually -- actually, like (UNINTELLIGIBLE) incapable of it otherwise -- Mr. Olin has a really interesting theory I want to get to.

Mickey, I want to start with you for a second. Do you accept the notion that the insanity defense in this country is broken?

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's not broken, it just ain't being used. It's just ineffective. It was essentially killed, I think, by the Hinckley case, by the Harvey Milk case, the "Twinkie defense" out in San Francisco. And if it didn't exist in the Andrea Yates case, the woman who tragically drowned her children -- she was found sane. So was Jeffrey Dahmer found sane. We don't want to hear it. We, the American public, don't want to hear the insanity defense anymore.

BROWN: And just one more question before I turn this to Mr. Olin -- the insanity defense in this country essentially comes down to a question: Does the person know the difference between right and wrong? That's the only real question, isn't it?

SHERMAN: It's supposed to be, but in reality, it comes down to whether or not a jury has the compassion or the intelligence or the wherewithal to say, You know what? I trust the mental health people to watch this guy for the rest of his life. So that's why we're going to find him not guilty by reason of insanity. And the public does not have that trust.

BROWN: OK. Let me turn to Mr. Olin because it seems to me Mr. Sherman made the argument that it's broken, even while arguing that it was not, because if Andrea Yates or Jeffrey Dahmer is not insane, then honestly, I don't know insanity. And what you're arguing is, Take this out of the conventional courtroom.

DIRK OLIN, NATIONAL EDITOR, "THE AMERICAN LAWYER": Well, that's right, Aaron. I mean, Mickey's right in -- to the extent that this is a rarely invoked defense. Something like...

BROWN: A rarely successful defense.

OLIN: Both. Less than 1 percent of criminal defendants ever turn to this defense, and less than a quarter of those are even successful. He's right in that regard. What he's wrong about is that the fundaments of the system are part of the problem. It's absurdly adjudicated, as he pointed out, and that's partly due to sort of socio-political changes in the wake of the Hinckley verdict. But it's also illogically constructed, and it's just plain unfair in its administration. BROWN: And what you'd like to see is not jurors making this judgment about whether the defendant is sane or not sane...

OLIN: Well, look, we have a system in place now in many states and in many criminal trials, where we decide the standing of competency of the defendant prior to the trial. Very often, a judge will take the advice of psychiatric professionals and determine whether or not this person is competent to stand trial. This essentially would expand that idea.

When somebody wants to basically use the legal doctrine to say, I did this, but I was not volitional, I did not have the capacity to do this with evil or wrongful intent, then yes, we move that to a psychiatric panel, where these people -- in the 150 years since this rule was first conceived in Great Britain, the psychiatric profession has made tremendous advances, and we see lots and lots more of this kind of expert counsel being used by the bench. It's used on the civil side in dauberd (ph) matters, as Mickey knows, and -- which basically involves really technical civil cases, and it has the possibility, I think, to restore faith in a system that a lot of people feel is hijacked too often.

BROWN: Why not?

SHERMAN: I don't buy it. First of all, then why do we have a situation when we're using an insanity defense, that both sides hire psychiatrists? The reason is because two psychiatrists give two different views. They are not uniform. There's no great standard. They're very opinionated.

BROWN: But look, there...

SHERMAN: I don't want professional jury.

BROWN: I understand that. And that's -- that's a fair point. But there are, in fact, cases where even the prosecution's psychiatrist will say, This person is insane. They're insane. I think that came up in the guy who went into the Capitol a few years back and shot up some people.

SHERMAN: But it still should be up to a jury, a jury of your peers, not professional people, people who come from all walks of life. I would much rather have...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: ... you can't win those cases. You can't win an Andrea Yates, you can't win a Hinckley, you can't win those cases because, as you said, jurors want nothing to do with it.

SHERMAN: It's not the mechanism, it's the climate. And maybe that will change. Maybe, as people have more confidence in the system -- and they're not going to get it by putting psychiatrists or other professional jurors on a jury.

OLIN: I respectfully... BROWN: Mr. Olin, last word -- 20 seconds.

OLIN: I respectfully disagree. I mean, I think that the problem is the system, and the lack of faith in the system is precisely due to the fact that people feel they can't get a legitimate verdict in these kinds of highly pressured and high- temperature cases.

BROWN: Appreciate your thoughts. Good to see you both. Thanks for coming in. Mickey Sherman and Dirk Olin, nice to have you with us tonight.

One of the deadliest diseases on the planet. We'll meet the first person to volunteer to take an experimental vaccine against Ebola.

And the battle of women's glossies. The rising star in the magazine world spurs the "thin is in" look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The Ebola virus has ravaged parts of Africa. It's feared as a potential terrorist weapon. But scientists have taken what could be a major step in fighting it. A volunteer just yesterday was injected with a new Ebola vaccine that6 is being test6ed by the National Institutes of Health. That brave person is Steve Rucker, who joins us tonight from Washington. With him, Dr. Anthony Fauci, who's the head of infectious diseases at NIH. It's good to see you both.

This is at a number of levels, to me, at least, a fascinating story. Mr. Rucker, let me start with you. Do you feel like a brave young man for doing this?

STEVE RUCKER, VACCINE VOLUNTEER: I'm not sure it was so much bravery. I saw an opportunity to do something important. I looked at the risks, educated myself, as any volunteer should do, and took the opportunity.

BROWN: And the risks are what?

RUCKER: The risks -- really, there weren't any. There weren't any significant risks. The scientists and the VRC (ph) staff were very patient with me, going over the risks. And I was convinced this was a very safe vaccine for me. I was very comfortable taking it, and there have been no problems.

BROWN: Dr. Fauci, what are the risks here?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: Well...

BROWN: There have got to be some risks. There's risks in everything.

FAUCI: Indeed. And that's the reason why we have to do what we call a phase one trial to show safety. But this particular type of a vaccine, the first thing you have to clarify is that this isn't the Ebola virus. This is a genetically modified, in the sense of -- not modified, but taking a DNA or the gene of a particular protein of this virus and injecting it into Steve. And then his body is now going to make antibodies very safely against the components of Ebola that he would then ultimately, hopefully, be protected, were he ever to come into contact.

The risks for him are fundamentally a local inflammatory response. Extraordinarily unlikely that there'll be anything else because of the nature of the fact of how purified this particular DNA is and the fact that it has nothing to do at all with a replicating Ebola, which is the first thing people think of...

BROWN: Yes.

FAUCI: ... when you're talking about an Ebola vaccine. They say, Oh, my goodness. He's getting vaccinated with Ebola.

BROWN: Right.

FAUCI: He's getting vaccinated with a very, very highly purified component of Ebola that cannot possibly infect him.

BROWN: So let me just ask what is perhaps a really dumb layperson's question. Does this trick the body into thinking it has Ebola in it?

FAUCI: Absolutely. In fact, that's the fundamental strategy and philosophy of all vaccine, to trick the body into thinking they've actually been infected with a particular microbe. In fact, some vaccines go so far as to be vaccines that are live but very weakened or attenuated.

BROWN: Yes.

FAUCI: We would never do that with Ebola right now because it is a virus that's so deadly. And that's the reason why what we do is, we get to the safest possible modality of vaccination of the individual. And in this case, it was taking a small, little snippet of the gene of the virus and injecting it in, so that the protein would then express itself. And there'd be nothing but protein. It would not be virus.

BROWN: I want to try to get a couple more things in here. Mr. Rucker, how did they go about -- how did you get the honor, if that's what this is, did you get the honor for being the subject of this test?

RUCKER: I suppose you could say it was right place, right time. It was an honor that I actually -- that I wanted. It was an opportunity to really make a difference in a small but powerful way, and I was very pleased to have it. I would certainly encourage other people to seek out a little bit of that same privilege, to be part of this little piece of history.

BROWN: Have you been -- I guess -- I think if someone gave me a shot like that under these circumstances, I would be unbelievably aware of every change in my body over the last 24 hours. Have you been? RUCKER: I've been paying closer attention, and I'm pleased to report I've been fine, actually. But I'm with you. Yes, I've been paying close attention.

BROWN: And Doc, let me give you the last word here. The importance of finding a vaccine for Ebola is what?

FAUCI: Well, it's two-fold. One is that Ebola sporadically evolves and bursts out in small mini-epidemics in sub-Saharan Africa. So there's a real natural emersion (ph) of Ebola, and we've seen it in different countries in Central Africa. But importantly for those of us here in the United States, it's among the very small list of agents that we're concerned about in the arena of bioterrorism. It's one of the hemorrhagic fevers. So to get a vaccine that could protect citizens against Ebola, either preemptively protecting health workers, or if there ever is an Ebola attack, to vaccinate the contacts of people who get infected with Ebola, is a tremendous step forward...

BROWN: Yes.

FAUCI: ... in protecting the country against one of the major microbes of bioterrorism.

BROWN: Doc, thanks for your time. It's good to see you again.

FAUCI: Good to be here.

BROWN: And Steve, thank you -- at a couple of levels -- for your willingness to take the shot and to come on the program and talk about it. Thank you both.

RUCKER: Thank you.

BROWN: The new look of the glossy pages of women's magazines. Happy faces. Oh, my goodness! Models who aren't real thin. What could this all mean? Is it the shape of things to come?

But first, a look at eight plans unveiled today in the competition to design a 9/11 memorial at the World Trade Center in downtown New York. Finalist entries were chosen from the more than 5,000 submitted.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: This may be a refreshing sign of honesty or a sign that the Apocalypse is, in fact, upon us. A women's magazine comes right out and admit's it's all about shopping. "Lucky" says it's trying to give women what they want. A bit change, I guess, from fashion books with razor-thin, unsmiling models. Which do women want in their magazines? Maybe they want both.

We're joined by Kim France, the editor-in-chief of "Lucky," and Mary Alice Stephenson -- is it "Stevenson" or "Stephenson," by the way?

MARY ALICE STEPHENSON, STYLE COMMENTATOR: "Stevenson." BROWN: "Stevenson" -- I'm sorry -- a style commentator and freelance fashion editor. Nice to see you both.

The magazine, I guess, as women in the audience probably know this -- it is essentially about shopping.

KIM FRANCE, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "LUCKY": It is precisely about shopping.

BROWN: There are no articles in it. Right?

FRANCE: No. Nothing.

BROWN: It's just page after page of products and what they cost?

FRANCE: Yes. That was -- that was essentially the idea. I didn't think there was room -- if we were going to launch another magazine, I didn't think we should launch another magazine that had all the other stuff in it because what was the purpose? There were already plenty of those. What I wanted was a magazine that had information about the stuff I wanted and where to go get it, which was something that I couldn't find in the fashion magazines that were out there. They had...

BROWN: Because the fashion magazines are real hoity-toity, you know, $10,000 dresses and that sort of stuff? Is that the idea?

FRANCE: Well, there's a lot of that. There is a lot of that. There's a beautiful $10,000 dress that only comes in a size 2, that they only maybe made one of. And first it makes the rounds and goes to "Vogue" and then goes to "Bazaar" and then goes to "Elle," and they never actually produced it for anyone. And it can be a frustrating experience for those women who are actually looking for something to go buy.

BROWN: And just so people don't think this is all kind of wacky, you're selling a lot of magazines.

FRANCE: We are. We are now in our third year at 900,000 circulation.

BROWN: Mary Alice, tell me why you think this is successful.

STEPHENSON: I think women don't dress head to toe in one designer. They splurge on some things and spend a little bit of money on others. So women want options, and "Lucky" is great because it provides those options. But I don't think it's -- I don't think it has to be separated. I think they also want fantasy. They want to look at magazines like "Bazaar," "Vogue"...

BROWN: That's what I was going to say. It seems to me that in the one case, you have a magazine that is about reality, and that in the "Vogues" of the world, to the extent that I know anything about the "Vogues" in the world, when I walk by them in airports and on newsstands, they're about a kind of unattainable fantasy. STEPHENSON: Well, I think, you know "Harper's Bazaar" and American "Vogue" have a lot of different price points in the magazine. They have to now. Women, you know, they don't spend as much money on certain things, so...

BROWN: Yes.

STEPHENSON: But women want to fantasize. They want to see how it's put together, and then they'll turn to "Lucky" to see their options. So they want a great black dress. They don't have to necessarily buy a Valentino and spend $2,000, they can find five different kind of black dresses at lot cheaper in "Lucky."

BROWN: And you don't feel any need to put in the magazine articles, like "10 Ways to Please Your Man" or "10 Ways to Know Your Guy Is Cheating" or any of those things.

FRANCE: I looked at the way my husband read his golf magazine. There's a lot of interests that a man who reads a golf magazine has, but he only expects to read about golf in a golf magazine. And I thought the women who read "Lucky" have a lot of other interests. They might play -- you know, they might play golf. They might be very interested in literature. They might be very sophisticated, interesting people, but they only expect to read about shopping there. It's -- one of the examples I use all the time, actually, is if I want to know about news, I'll turn on CNN. If I want to read movie reviews, I'll read "The New Yorker." I don't need to get that information in a magazine.

BROWN: I think that's really smart. Just in half a minute or so -- does it tell us anything about a changing culture, or is it just somebody figured out a really smart niche to work through?

STEPHENSON: I think it's a little bit of both. Women nowadays don't have a lot of time to shop, so they want to go to one place -- it's like the shopping bible -- find out all their options. They can just call up the store and get it sent to them -- because a lot of us are working or we're too busy in other parts of our lives.

BROWN: We certainly are. Thank you. Nice to meet you both. Congratulations. That's a really interesting idea.

And thank you for being with us tonight. Paula's back tomorrow. I'll be back tonight on "NEWSNIGHT" an hour from now, right after "LARRY KING LIVE," which is next. Good night.

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Morning; Was This a Bad Week for Democratic Presidential Candidates?>