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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Analysis of Michael Jackson's Arrest
Aired November 20, 2003 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But I'm here to tell you today that Michael has given me the authority to say on his behalf, these charges are categorically untrue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, king of pop, Michael Jackson arrested and booked in Santa Barbara, California. Charges, child molestation. Jackson now free after posting $3 million bail, but not before Jackson is handcuffed, mug shot taken, next court date, January 9.
In California, one count of child molestation could mean eight years behind bars. Can a high profile defense lawyer Mark Geragos clear Jackson, the father of three of multiple charges?
Tonight, with all the latest, Court TV's Diane Dimond. Diane broke the news of the arrest warrant right here on LARRY KING. Plus, Steve Manning, close friend of the Jackson family. Today Michael's brother, Jermaine called the arrest a modern day lynching.
Also Jann Carl with "Entertainment Tonight" is with us you say. High profile defense attorney, Chris Pixley, assistant D.A. for San Francisco, Jim Hammer and psychotherapist, Dr. Robi Ludwig. It is all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry tonight.
What a day. And remember, tonight is not a day to convict or acquit, but to find out what we know so far, and joining us with the very latest, Court TV's Diane Dimond. Hi, Diane.
DIANE DIMOND, COURT TV: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I'm great. Diane, you've been covering this from the beginning, Tell me the latest as of tonight.
DIMOND; Well, right now, we know that Michael Jackson has a prisoner number at Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department. We know that his booking sheet gives his height, his weight, his race, his age, 45 years old. He was fingerprinted. He posted the $3 million bail, and as soon as that was done, he went back out to the airport, got right back on an airplane, and went back home to Las Vegas, Nevada.
There was sort of a funny scene right there on CNN when he landed in Las Vegas, and tried to make his way back to, I guess a hotel or wherever he was going. He got caught in a big traffic fans gathered around the car and knocked on the windows and I hear that he actually rolled the windows down a little bit and yelled -- shook some hands with the fans.
GRACE: What a day reminiscent of a lot of other freeway chases we have covered, Diane Dimond. Diane, can you give me any updates regarding the alleged victim in this case?
DIMOND: Well, I can, Nancy. There's a couple of different versions out there. And you, the viewers, and those on the panel tonight, you take your choice. I'll make it quick.
DIMOND: One version says that this young boy, 12 years old, a cancer victim, by the way, stricken with cancer, had a final wish to meet his idol, Michael Jackson, see where he lived, see what Neverland was like. That seems to not be in dispute.
Here comes the Michael Jackson version. He was very generous to the boy. Paid some of the medical bills. Brought him and his family out to Neverland, took them on trips and this family once at Neverland wouldn't leave. He didn't know how to get rid of them and suddenly he started to realize there was turmoil brewing, trouble brewing.
That's when he brought in Mark Geragos back in March. He retained him back then. And he was trying to get these people -- get friendly with them so they wouldn't bring this allegation but they wouldn't leave his house.
The other version, not told by the pro-Michael Jackson camp is this cancer victim got to go to Neverland and then, was not allowed to leave. In fact, the word kidnapped was used. The mother and two other siblings at Neverland Ranch held there for some unknown reason. And, that was then reiterated to two lawyers and then, finally, to the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department that this women felt she and her family were held at Neverland against their will. Take your pick. Those are the two versions.
GRACE: Of course, Diane, from what I'm hearing about the allegations, they don't mention anything about false imprisonment or kidnapping. Is this story getting a little too farfetched?
DIMOND: Not net.
GRACE: OH, not yet. So, you think there will be an addendum, an amendment to the complaint?
DIMOND: Well, there could be, I'm told. And I'm also told that, you know, Michael Jackson is always surrounded by bodyguards, personal servants, domestics, yard workers out at the ranch, that big, huge ranch. Just look at those flower beds, somebody has to be tending them.
I get the impression -- let me put it this way. I would not be surprised if somewhere down the road some of the people surrounding Michael Jackson might have at least a threat of charges against them. Aiding, abetting, allowing children in knowing full well what the heck might happen.
DIMOND: It wouldn't surprise me at all.
GRACE: You know, Diane, we keep hearing multiple charges, multiple charges. That phrase thrown around. Do you have any reason to believe these are multiple charges regarding one alleged victim or multiple charges with several victims?
DIMOND: No. Right now, we're talking about one alleged victim, this 12-year-old cancer patient. 12 years old, by the way, much like the boy in 1993, same age. Same allegations of this sort of sophisticated courtship by Michael Jackson. Taking a family on these fabulous trips. Plying this little boy, he claims, with wine and sleeping pills, a 12-year-old boy, cancer patient.
They are pretty farfetched. There were rumbles that the mother in this case may have some problems herself. Those are not quite delineated but, you know, Nancy, between you and me, who in the world would leave their son alone with Michael Jackson at Neverland Ranch? What planet have you been on if you haven't heard the allegations about him? Whether they're true or not, you want to take the risk?
GRACE: Right. Diane, I know there's a $3 billion bail posted. How much money, actual cash money did Jackson have to cough up?
DIMOND: Oh, now I knew you'd ask me something I didn't know the answer to. I don't know about that. But I do know he's heavily in debt. So it's, you know, he probably had to scrape a little bit to get that amount up. If it was $3 million.
GRACE: You know, the typical, Diane, is 10 percent of the bail amount to put it at about $300,000. So, it's not like he had to suddenly come up with $3 million in cash overnight. You know, authorities immediately put out a request as to any other potential victims out there. Diane, do you expect a response?
DIMOND: Well, as Tom said in the -- district attorney's said at his news conference the other day, he knows and I know of other civil payments that have been paid out since that big infamous case in 1993 and 4. So, that's telling you something. Why would you make payouts to people if it wasn't for a reason? Maybe it was Michael Jackson's generosity, but, yes. I think -- I know that the D.A. and the sheriff are getting calls. They're getting calls from people if they're bonafide complaints, I don't know.
GRACE: Diane, speaking of the D.A., let's focus on him for just one moment. Jackson is not the only player in this saga. There was a lot of levity at the press conference yesterday which I was a little disturbed with as a former D.A. was a little disturbed with. What's your reaction to that?
DIMOND: You know, I was sitting in the very front row, and I have known Tom Snedden, the D.A. for many years, because I covered the original case. He's -- I don't want to sound like I'm sticking up for the guys -- but he's a good old boy. He's very well educated, a Notre Dame graduate, has 9 children. You know, you've got 9 children, you got to be pretty laid back, I supposed, after awhile. And that's what he is.
He's laid back...
GRACE: Wait a minute. Diane, you're telling me he's got 9 kids and he's never heard Michael Jackson music? I -- you know, I've got a problem with his credibility right now.
DIMOND: That's what he said. I hear you Nancy. Somewhere in his house I bet it's played at some time.
GRACE: You're not kidding.
DIMOND: I didn't think there was levity in the room. And other reporters I talked, because I've asked my colleagues, most people don't think there was levity in the room. They thought there was an air of jovial confidence coming from the D.A.
GRACE: You know what, I'm going to come back with that thought, because Diane, all day long it's been reported that this is a get back on the part of the D.A., then Michael Jackson had written lyrics in a song blasting him, so this is all just pay back. We'll find out everybody. Diane Dimond, from Court TV, has been on this case from the get go.
And when we come back, we will also be joined by an all-star panel, as well as a Jackson family spokesperson very close to Michael Jackson and his family, that spent the entire yesterday with the king of pop, Michael Jackson. And don't worry, as if there weren't enough characters already, enter Mark Geragos. Take a listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GERAGOS, ATTORNEY: He's come back specifically to confront these charges head on. He is greatly outraged by the bringing of these charges. He considers this to be a big lie. He understands the people who are outraged because if these charges were true, I assure you Michael would be the first to be outraged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERAGOS: I'm here to tell you today Michael given me the authority to say on his behalf these charges are categorically untrue. He looks forward to getting into a courtroom as opposed to any other forum and confronting these accusations head on. We plan on doing that and I'm not going to take any other questions and answers. I will say, however, that he has already for your information at least, he's already posted the bond and he's processed out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: High profile Defense Attorney Mark Geragos speaking out on his latest client, Michael Jackson.
Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.
I'm Nancy Grace from Court Tv in for Larry tonight. Thank you for being with us. And tonight I'm not the former prosecutor. It's right down the middle of the road looking at the evidence we know of so far in the case against and for the king of pop, Michael Jackson.
I'm going right back out to Diane Dimond. She has been covering this case not only for years, but in the latest bout broke the story of the warrant right here on LARRY KING LIVE.
Diane, there was a massive search, massive search on Neverland where Michael Jackson lives. Was there a result? do we know anything? In Peterson, saw the police taking out bags and bags of evidence.
Do we know what was taken from Neverland?
DIMOND: Well, don't forget there was more than just Neverland searched. There were two other warrants served in Southern California at two film businesses. That, I know, a little bit about. The two film businesses, there were films taken from the owners there. One man was quoted as saying, "The authorities told me not to say anything about it but videos of Michael Jackson with various children at various locations. So I'm sure this might be used as an identifier just to put Jackson with the accuser. As for Neverland, no. We don't know what they took. We know they wrapped up the search 14 hours after it began. They had, I'm sure, an eye on the computers. I'm told maybe some personal letters they were looking for. Between the accuser and him. Photograph and, of course, Michael Jackson is an avid video nut. Likes to take a lot of video. I'm sure they're taking a look at that, too.
GRACE: Hey, Diane, you have an exclusive interview with the district attorney office. Tell me about that.
DIMOND: Right. Well, Tom does not talk to the media very often. He likes to do his job and go home and he's real big on a softball team, et cetera. But he did agree to sit down and talk to me and he talked about oh so many things. And one that really stuck out in my mind was when they went to Neverland Ranch, 8:30 Monday morning, they knocked on the door. They did not only had a search warrant, they had an arrest warrant in hand and he told me, we were ready to put the handcuffs on him right then and there.
GRACE: As a matter of fact, Diane, let's go to a clip of your interview with the D.A. Take a listen. DIMOND: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM SNEDDON, D.A., SANTA BARBARA: You know, I just -- I have my life and what I do and I do my job and anybody who thinks I've spent 10 years waiting to do something to Michael Jackson does not got a clue. To think it's for political reasons is totally poppy cock. I'm not running for re-election. I'm retiring in three years. I've been successful. I had a good career. I'm not worried about notch on my belt. This is a case. Came down the line. It is my responsibility. Its a serious case. It deserves serious discretion to be used.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining us also, everyone, is a Jackson family friend, Steve Manning is with us tonight. Steve, I know you heard that bit from the district attorney.
STEVE MANNING, JACKSON FAMILY FRIEND: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: Hi. Thank you for being with us.
MANNING: Thank you.
GRACE: Do you think this is a grudge match between a D.A. robbed of a conviction 10 years ago?
MANNING: Seems really strange. The cd came out yesterday. The timing seems very coincidental. I can talk about the Neverland situation. Anybody that goes to Neverland wouldn't want to leave. So, why would they be held kidnapped? That is ridiculous to say he was holding people by kidnapping. It doesn't make sense. Neverland, it's a truly fantasy place. If you get an opportunity to go to Neverland one day, you don't want to leave. I had the opportunity to be there many, many times. And it's a wonderful place to stay there as a vacation.
GRACE: As a matter of fact, Steve, Jermiane Jackson, of course, family member, the brother of Michael Jackson and of course his advocate called in to CNN today. Take a listen to this, Steve.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Not esentric. He had an incredible, wonderful childhood. And what they're doing is bringing him down with the very thing he loveed, his children and family. My brother is about peace. They don't know us. But this will reveal itself. But I'm sick and [bleep] of everybody saying these things about my family. We will fight and we will stand up. And everybody that knows this family around the world will support us because at the end of the day, this is nothing but a modern day lynching.
(END VIDEO CLIP) GRACE: And Steve, I've got to agree. If this young boy is not telling the truth, this is a modern day lynching. However, if he is telling the truth, this is one of the most heinous crimes on the law books. But please, give this much, Steve. When Jermaine says his brother is not eccentric, hello, do you agree that Michael isn't a tiny bit ecentric?
MANNING: Of course, he's a creative person. All creative people are eccentric.
GRACE: Well, I agree with you and doesn't make him a child molesters. I agree with you.
MANNING: Of course not. Let me say something about that. Let say, first of all, Jermaine was very, very upset today. There have been many people have been coming on the TV shows over the last couple of days and been a frenzy of press that don't know the family. They don't know Michael. That's why he's upset about people speaking about the family
First of all..
GRACE: That's a point well taken. We are going to explore that and a lot more when we come back. Everyone, Steve Manning has spent time with Michael Jackson over the past 48 hours. He was with him the entire day yesterday when this entire story broke. Also, with us on the scene is Court TV's Diane Dimond. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: It brings tears to my eyes when I see any child who suffers. I am not guilty of these allegations. But if I am guilty, of anything, it is of giving all that I have -- all that I have to give to help children all over the world. It is of loving children of all ages and races. It is of gaining sheer joy from seeing children with their innocent and smiling faces. It is of enjoying through them the childhood that I missed myself.
If I am guilty of anything, it is of believing what God said about children. Suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not for such is the kingdom of heaven. And no way do I think I am God, but I do try to be God-like in my heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Michael Jackson speaking out and that was before this latest search warrant and arrest. Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry tonight. Thank you for being with us.
Diane Dimond has been on the case from the get go. Diane, response to that comment?
DIMOND: Well, you know, it's the same old song from Michael Jackson. You know, I try to see both sides of every story. I try to talk to as many people as I can, but I am kind of tired of feeling sorry for Michael Jackson and his bad childhood.
According to Jermaine Jackson, today, on CNN, he didn't have a bad childhood. I mean, let's face it, he's a little weird. You know? He's just a little weird and anybody...
GRACE: I know that Steve...
DIMOND: ...over and over again. You know.
GRACE: I know that Steve Manning wants to respond to that. Steve?
MANNING: What's that, Nancy? I'm sorry.
GRACE: Well, Diane was pointing out several of the eccentricities of Michael Jackson over the past few years in response to that bite from him. Do you care to respond? And also, you were with him the entire day yesterday. How was he responding to the news?
MANNING: He was, Nancy, he was completely upbeat. He was jovial. I was shocked. He was in a good spirit. I was really surprised to see him in a good mood and the family there to support him. Jermaine was there, his parents, his other brothers and sisters. He feels that he's innocent and he is innocent, my personal opinion. And he feels that every time a project comes out, it's a situation, something -- a roadblock in his career.
GRACE: Let me got to you Jan?
DIMOND: You know, Nancy, I wonder...
GRACE: Go ahead, Diane.
DIMOND: Can I ask Steve a quick question?
MANNING: Hi, Diane, how are you?
DIMOND: How are you, Steve? I'm interested to hear you viewpoints. And I wonder about the people close to Michael who talk about how wonderful he is and whatnot. Do they ever sit him down and say, hey, this sleeping with kids in your bed has got to stop? You need like an intervention here, buddy, because it's looking kind of weird?
MANNING: Diane, if you remember his interview last year with the guy from London, he said that he had slept with -- a lot of times the kids sleep on the floor I was told, before. Many, many times with his own nieces and nephews at the ranch and other places in the hotels when he's on the road and kids sleep on the floor. He loves children.
DIMOND: He said they slept in his bed with him, though. MANNING: Yes, I understand that. But I would honestly say nothing sexual or any kind of inappropriate behavior happened, I can tell you that.
DIMOND: How are you so sure?
MANNING: Because I have known him over...
DIMOND: Child molesters are our next door neighbors. They're everywhere. There the priests in the parish. They're the butcher down the block.
MANNING: But Diane, I've known Michael for 30 years and other members of the family. He really loves children. I couldn't imagine him doing something like that would be inappropriate.
GRACE: Okay. Guys, hold on one moment. I want to go to Jann Carl on this. Jann has been covering the case for sometime, you're with "Entertainment Tonight." What's the difference in this round of allegations as opposed to ten years ago?
JANN CARL, "ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT": There's obviously the legal differences that the D.A. has been talking about. But we were talking about this at "Entertainment Tonight" that one of the biggest differences we're seeing is that ten years ago, there was a huge bank of celebrities that came forward, went on the record and defended him. Elizabeth Taylor, of course, has known him for years and years as well. Before she came forward, I think her quote was something along the lines of that she believed in, quote, Michael's integrity, his love and trust in children.
Now I have to credit MSNBC. They tried to reach her today and quote, unquote, "Ms. Taylor will have no comment" is what her spokeswoman said. Elizabeth Taylor. That was her. Also, Liza Minelli, they contacted her, she has no comment.
One of the biggest differences I'm seeing, is that the people that supported him in the past, who said they trusted and believed in him. You know, stepping back.
GRACE: Why do you think there's a difference?
CARL: You have to wonder if that, where there's smoke there's fire. I think, they're hesitating. Maybe they're going to wait and see how this plays out finally in a court of law.
GRACE: Right, and you know, another thing, Jim Hammer, it could be just the promulgations, the accumulation of charges. First, there was a battle ten years ago. Now there's this time. Is it snowball affect?
JIM HAMMER, SAN FRANCISCO ASSISTANT DA: I want to pick up on what was just said about, where there's smoke there's fire. Maybe he didn't do it. None of us knows tonight for sure. But I hope to God there is a trial this time, because if it's true he molested this boy and other boys, the system colossally failed 10 years ago when a rich, powerful man bought off a kid and his family to stop a criminal trial.
GRACE: But wait a minute, Jim, before you blame the prosecutor, and believe me tonight, I'm right down the middle of the road...
HAMMER: I don't blame the prosecutor.
GRACE: I'm not taking the side of the prosecutor tonight, but I do have a question. Isn't it true that after the last round of allegations ten years ago, the law was changed?
HAMMER: In a couple of ways.
GRACE: Then the prosecutor couldn't make the child testify.
HAMMER: Well, the big changes are that now the prosecutor can stop the civil proceeding from going forward, can say, put that on hold until we finish the criminal trial. Secondly, there was a new exception to the hearsay rule in California so the kid wouldn't testify and was under 12 years old. A doctor or psychotherapist could say here's what he said happened.
GRACE: He didn't have that tool 10 years ago. The victim didn't testify ten years ago, he was basically up the creek without a paddle.
HAMMER: I'm blaming the system that allowed it to happen. Here's the big difference this time, if this goes to trial, not just this boy will testify, but every other prior alleged victim who has the courage to come forward will come forward. California law allows that and the jury will hear the whole story and make a decision about what happen.
GRACE: Before we go to break, Chris Pixley, I'm sure you have seen the lyrics that Michael Jackson wrote about the district attorney. He is a cold man, he's a cold man, says it like 50 times. He accuses him of being a racist. Do you think there's any fact to the allegations of the made today on the get back on the part of the D.A.'s office?
CHRIS PIXLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don't know if there any truth to it. But the interesting thing that's going to come out here is that we have Mark Geragos handling two high profile cases.
GRACE: Mark Geragos, who is that? Oh, yes, yes, yes.
PIXLEY: And the crossover of the cases puts him in a difficult position. If he argues police misconduct in the Peterson Case.
GRACE: You mean, making all that money?
PIXLEY: This is his job, Nancy. But aside from the money he gets paid, if he has to make the argument in the Peterson case there's police misconduct, turns around and starts to saying, that well the D.A. here has a vendetta against Michael Jackson, with the media covering this event the way they are, he's going to start to lose credibility. You don't know if there's credibility to the D.A. Having it out for Michael Jackson. It's a hard pill to swallow if it's coming out of Mark Geragos' mouth. And it's not going to be coming from anywhere else right now.
CARL: When we see, for instance, in a rape case, we see the defense, obviously attacking the credibility of the woman. What will happen in the case when it's a 12 year-old child?
GRACE: You're not kidding!
CARL: I already heard them talking about the credibility of this family.
GRACE: Hey, Diane, before we go to break, Jann brought up a great theory here. We've seen Geragos go for the jugular with Amber Frey in the Scott Peterson case. Whole different ballgame when you've got a 12-year-old little boy as the alleged victim. No way can he have that gloves-off cross-exam.
DIMOND: And especially a 12-year-old cancer patient. Yes. I hope everybody is getting this undercurrent here, Nancy. The district attorney and the sheriff here are saying that Michael Jackson not only molested a child, but he molested a sick and perhaps dying child. Keep that in mind. Geragos cannot attack this kid on the stand.
GRACE: Well, so says Diane Dimond. It's all playing out in California right now. We're going to find out about the whereabouts of Michael Jackson. We think in Nevada. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - COURT TV)
CHRIS PAPPAS, SANTA BARBARA COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: The booking process took approximately 30 to 45 minutes, was completed without incident. Mr. Jackson's people were very cooperative throughout this process. And the sheriff's department would like to forward their appreciation for that cooperation at this point in time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: What about this family of this child? Do they realize the firestorm that will erupt? Are they worried about their safety?
SNEDDON: They're very much aware of the implications of cooperating with law enforcement.
DIMOND: They're that adamant, they're that focused on taking this case forward?
SNEDDON: I'm not -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that characterization because that's unfair that there's some kind of vindictiveness involved here or fearlessness involved or retribution. I think that's an unfair characterization. They've cooperated with us, and they're aware of the risks involved and -- they've still cooperated with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, in for Larry tonight, and I want to thank you for being with us as we bring you the very latest in the investigation as to Michael Jackson.
Let me go to you, Chris Pixley. We're talking about how Geragos could possibly cross-examine a young boy, not just a young boy but a young cancer victim. What about the angle of attacking the boy's family on the money issue? That way, he's not really attacking the boy, but he's getting a lot of points on cross-exam.
PIXLEY: Yes, that's absolutely what I think will occur here. Obviously, there's the possibility that the boy doesn't understand what he's saying, that the boy has somehow dreamt this up. But the reality is, I think Mark Geragos is first going to focus, in this particular situation, on this family. And they're going to be -- ultimately, they will be dragged through the mud, the same way Michael Jackson is being dragged through the mud. The focus will be on their every word and deed and on their motivations.
And there's reason to ask those questions because this is a family -- this is not a typical situation. This is a family that has allowed their child to have alone time with Michael Jackson, a man who is known, at least is rumored to have a strange relationship with children.
GRACE: That's right! Rumored, not known.
GRACE: I'll take Larry's role tonight.
GRACE: He's just charged. He hasn't been convicted.
HAMMER: Where is Judge King?
CARL: Nancy, I even have people saying, Could the parents, you know, be held responsible for allowing their child to be with Michael. Now, I don't think -- you know, I'm not a lawyer...
GRACE: Let me go to Steve Manning. I've heard that bandied about, as well. Steve Manning, everyone, is a dear friend of other Jackson family. Speaking of the money motive that a lot of people are alleging the day after, do you think it's all about money, Steve?
MANNING: You know, Nancy, it's always about money. Let me say something. I'd really like to say that Michael, last year, during that Martin Bashir special -- the cancer victim -- cancer's a horrible, dreadful disease, as we know. The boy admitted that he was healed from going to the range. Michael opened his home to his parents, to the boy. He traveled with the parents. I mean, the boy was healed. Thank God for that.
But let me tell you something about -- about children with Michael. Michael's own nieces and nephews, from a very large family, the kids have been embarrassed to go to school. The media has turned into a frenzy. The kids are afraid to go to school. The kids have been teased, just like allegedly this boy was teased. It's been horrible on the Jackson grandkids.
GRACE: We are taking your calls, everyone. Steve Manning is with us, a Jackson family friend. You know, of course, his statement is going to be looked at in detail, and the more detail a young victim can provide makes his story more believable. Do you think it's all about money?
HAMMER: Well, listen, this is really outrageous, I have to say. You know, everyone's going to great pains to talk about Michael Jackson's presumption of innocence, but to already attack this young boy, who's in hiding somewhere, some 12-year-old kid, and accuse him of making this up because of money I think is outrageous, and everyone ought to just stop it right now.
GRACE: You know, very rarely do you see the attack on alleged victims this early in the game.
PIXLEY: Well, this kid...
GRACE: We haven't even been in this 48 hours!
PIXLEY: This poor child's going to face...
GRACE: Yes, quickly...
PIXLEY: ... the biggest PR machine in the world.
GRACE: ... Steve.
MANNING: You know what, Nancy, again? People -- of course, again, the boy has cancer. He's healed now, thank God. But listen, the parents, whoever's behind this whole thing -- this is like a war going on. And when someone's at war...
MANNING: Hold on one second.
MANNING: Hold on one second.
HAMMER: ... telling the truth and he was molested by this...
MANNING: When someone's at war, you use every weapon you have to get to the line and get the war over with.
HAMMER: And that's what -- that's what Michael's people are doing.
GRACE: Everybody, quick break. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) here on the set. We are taking your calls. We're going straight to your calls when we get back from this break. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERAGOS: Look, I'm going to just make a brief statement. I'm not going to take questions and answers. Michael is here. He's come back specifically to confront these charges head on. He is greatly outraged by the bringing of these charges. He considers this to be a big lie. He understands the people who are outraged because if these charges were true, I assure you, Michael would be the first to be outraged. But I'm hear to tell you today that Michael has given me the authority to say on his behalf these charges are categorically untrue.
He looks forward to getting into a courtroom, as opposed to any other forum, and confronting these accusations head on. We plan on doing that. And I'm not going to take any other questions and answers. I will say, however, that he has already -- for your information, at least -- he's already posted the bond, and he's processed out. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SNEDDON: Jackson himself, I believe, has said this was all done to try to ruin his new CD that was coming out, or whatever it is he's doing. Like, the sheriff and I really are into that kind of music. But...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last question.
QUESTION: What do you say to parents who let their children go to Neverland ranch on sleepovers?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My advice is, don't do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you're seeing a press conference from the local district attorney, the man that is handling the case against Michael Jackson.
Diane Dimond I hear laughter in the press conference. I hear levity. If he hasn't heard Michael Jackson's lyrics in the past, he must have been living in a cave. I'm not saying the allegations are true or untrue. But what do you make of the lyrics of the song Michael Jackson wrote in response to the last investigation?
DIMOND: Well, I asked Tom Sneddon about that. You missed one crucial thing about those lyrics, Nancy.
DIMOND: Over and over, it's repeated, "Dom Sheldon (ph)" -- like Tom Sneddon -- "is a cold man, cold man, cold man," and it ends with a gunshot. Now, when I was first covering the Michael Jackson story...
GRACE: You know what, Diane? You're absolutely right. I never heard the gunshot at the end.
GRACE: You know what? Hold on.
DIMOND: It's clearly audible.
GRACE: Instead of let's talking about it, let's take a listen. Hold on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON (singing - transcribed on screen): They want to get my ass dead or alive. You know, he really tried to take me down by surprise. I bet he missioned with the CIA. He don't do half what he say. Tom Sneddon is a cold man. Tom Sneddon is a cold man. Tom Sneddon is a cold man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What about it, Jann?
CARL: Well, I was going to say, the only thing that -- that in the lyrics that are actually printed, of course, it doesn't say Tom Sneddon, it says Dom Sheldon. So I mean...
CARL: Yes, you listen to it -- Sheldon. You listen to it, and it sounds like he's saying Tom Sneddon. And disturbing -- it is -- it's rather ominous at the end, when the gunshot goes off.
GRACE: Let's go to Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, joining us from New York. Robi, what do you make of the lyrics?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST, COUNSELS SEX ABUSE VICTIMS: Well, it's not uncommon for artists to express themselves through their music. They very often express their thoughts, their ideas, make political comments. And clearly, Michael Jackson is expressing hostility and rage, and this may not be a bad way to express hostility and rage. I don't expect that Michael Jackson would be in danger of harming anyone in this kind of violent way, but he's expressing a strong emotion of how he is feeling victimized by the police department. And we know that this is a common theme with Michael Jackson. Very often, he feels victimized by people.
GRACE: You know, Robi, a lot has been made of the alleged money motive for these allegations. But the law's been changed in California, and this young accuser, this alleged victim, can be brought into the courtroom and cross-examined. If he's not telling the truth, do you think it would come out that he had been manipulated by his family, his parents, someone with money motives?
LUDWIG: You know, it is so hard to know. Very often, children don't even want to report sexual abuse when it is going on, and that it doesn't come out until the sexual abuse going on for a very long time. And that's why sometimes children actually take back their initial statement because there's a feeling of warmth and connection sometimes to the perpetrator, especially with pedophiles. It's not like the typical rapist that will go after a child and harm a child. These pedophiles -- and again, I'm not saying that Michael Jackson is one -- but they're very seductive and very charming and they very often...
HAMMER: It's not just...
LUDWIG: ... develop a relationship.
MANNING: Nancy, may I join in now again, please?
HAMMER: To follow up -- to follow up on what you were saying, I think one of the most convincing things, potentially, about the case is going to be if this complaint came up in the context of talking to his therapist, as opposed to going to a lawyer to try to get money...
GRACE: Good point.
HAMMER: ... and it was a therapist who turned it on. Then how can you say that was for a money motive?
GRACE: Steve Manning.
MANNING: Well, first of all, kids are manipulated. You know what? Let me say something. Law enforcement people are laughing. These are very serious charges. That's not talked about. And also, you know, there's a certain actor in Hollywood who went into a precinct in a certain film and shot up the whole precinct. And we're talking about one gunshot. That's not talked about.
GRACE: We are taking your calls, everyone. Joining us tonight, Steve Manning, a Jackson family friend.
Let's go to Memphis, Tennessee. Memphis?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy Grace.
CALLER: You know, it appears, based on the last couple of albums that Michael has put out, that his career is over. Do you think, if proven innocent, that his -- he can launch a comeback, after all of these allegations.
GRACE: Good question. Jann, what do you make?
CARL: You know, he's sort of been on the -- on the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) actually sine before the 1993 allegations.
GRACE: The man's still a multi-millionaire, though.
GRACE: ... compared to the rest of us!
CARL: Compared to -- yes. No, no, no. Not at all. And for most artists -- for instance, his last album sold two million. That's considered very good. Compared to what Michael used to do, it is not. I think it all started -- it was when -- when there were the -- there were the rumors about the -- you know, wanting to buy the elephant man's skeletal remains. All those things came up.
GRACE: Oh, no, he's not eccentric! Who said that?
CARL: The dangling baby -- all those things came about. I do think fans -- they were backing away and backing away. At the same time, I will say, any artist who's had a career that has spanned three decades, such as Michael has, you look at that and say, you know, anyone who can still sell two million albums, that's still pretty good.
MANNING: You know what?
CARL: Compared to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) base, no.
GRACE: Go ahead, Steve.
MANNING: Nancy, you know, if certain journalists would leave Michael alone and not base their career on attacking him. He would be fine. He will come back. You know, this man has sold over 100 million CDs. And it's always saying in the press the so-called proclaimed king of pop. He is the king of pop, just based on his record sales.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking a quick break. I see your calls are lined up. We're taking them on LARRY KING LIVE. I'm in for Larry tonight not as a former prosecutor, but trying to fill his chair impartially, so help me with your phone calls. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SNEDDON: ... thing with Michael Jackson is just -- it's a case that came in. The sheriff and I have committed that we're going to handle it like any other case, to the extent we can. No special treatment one way or the other. And that's the way we view it. It's part of our jobs. But to think -- for anybody to think this is something that we're doing because he wrote some song about me or something happened, you know, 10 years ago, it's just -- it's just not true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, in for Larry tonight, and I want to thank you for being with us.
We are taking your calls. Let's go to Tampa, Florida. Tampa?
CALLER: Yes, Nancy. My question for your panel is, with the district attorney asking for more victims to come forward, could this possibly lead to more scam artists, which could convolute the case? And why can't the parents be held responsible on maybe child endangerment if he is found guilty?
GRACE: Good question. Jim?
HAMMER: It is a danger, definitely, and I hope the DA will look very, very carefully at anybody who came forward and vet them out. I think the most reliable ones that I've seen so far, not just the one kid who was being investigated back in '93, but apparently, the LA district attorney, Garcetti, had two other victims come forward at that time. It would so strengthen the prosecution's case if this little boy didn't have to stand up all by himself at trial. If it's true, there are other kids, and the jury could really see a pattern develop. And it would give comfort to this one kid not to have to go it alone. If it's true.
PIXLEY: That's the key. That's why -- that's why they're looking out and reaching out for other victims. You know, let's be honest and without being indelicate. This is an allegation of lewd and lascivious conduct, Nancy. And you know that that means that this does not involve intercourse. That means there probably aren't...
GRACE: Well, there are two counts.
PIXLEY: ... going to be any physical injuries. Well, it's under...
GRACE: There's two counts.
PIXLEY: It's 288. And my understanding of that section...
GRACE: That's a good point. PIXLEY: ... in California, it's lewd and lascivious. That means...
PIXLEY: ... there aren't going to be injuries. If there aren't injuries, this is actually a tough case. So you don't need to attack the DA. You don't need to necessarily attack the parents. All of that may happen, but the real question is, Are they going to be able to prove this?
GRACE: Diane, what exactly are the charges? I understand there are at least two charges, one being lewd and lascivious. What are the others?
DIMOND: No. There -- there -- we don't know yet, Nancy. There are going to be multiple charges under 288-A of the California penal code. And Chris Pixley has it exactly right. It's lewd and lascivious behavior with a minor under the age of 14. And the question is, how many counts? Because if convicted, a person charged with this could get up to eight years for each count.
GRACE: And the reality is, Diane, that every -- let me just say incident -- every alleged incident would equal an additional count. Another question...
DIMOND: And then they have to prove each incident.
GRACE: Now, Diane...
DIMOND: They have to prove each incident.
GRACE: ... you have had -- yes. You have had prior legal action with Michael Jackson. Explain.
DIMOND: I have. When I first broke the story, I was working for the television show "Hard Copy." And we were sued for $100 million. It was odd because I got the papers and I looked at them, and it was my name first and then Paramount Pictures and then "Hard Copy" and then a bunch of other names. But it sort of took your breath away. The case was dismissed by...
GRACE: Yes, for, like, $100 million!
DIMOND: ... a judge...
GRACE: For $100 million!
DIMOND: Well, right. It's not like I could write a check for that. But ultimately, the case -- to cut to the chase -- was dismissed, a summary judgment by a California judge.
GRACE: Everyone, Steve Manning is with us. He is a Jackson family friend.
Steve, with the district attorney calling for other potential victims, do you think that is opening the floodgates for anybody and their brother and sister to ride into the DA's office for money?
MANNING: Well, you know, Nancy, the media is making it very alluring for people to do this. I mean, for the last two days, it's been a circus atmosphere, I mean, a fever-pitch frenzy of the press. And I think also, people like Brian Oxman, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Gordon out of the woodworks. I mean, they're pulling people out of the woodworks (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
GRACE: Right. But Jim, the reality is that if the DA wants to find any other potential victims, how do they go about doing that?
MANNING: Well, guess what...
HAMMER: You do...
MANNING: ... guess -- well how come...
HAMMER: You do what the DA just -- just said to do. And again, there's a very heavy responsibility on that DA only to bring charges he believes in about these kids. But I think -- can you imagine, I mean, having a 12-year-old and have this happen, as a parent, a parent who'd let their kids in there? You might feel guilty yourself. And think about what this kid is about to face from this. Already, his mother been charged of money grubbing. The DA's been attacked. All the media's been attacked. Think about any normal...
GRACE: And this is day two!
HAMMER: ... family...
GRACE: ... 48 hours.
HAMMER: Pretty good for Jackson's PR machine.
PIXLEY: But the DA hadn't done any favors for themselves, either.
HAMMER: I agree!
PIXLEY: Hear, they've held this press conference...
GRACE: I've got to...
PIXLEY: ... where they're laughing and joking about Michael Jackson and the charges...
DIMOND: Why did they have to have a press conference?
PIXLEY: And then they tell us that they don't have charges ready to file against him. And they're reaching out to the community and saying, Please, if there's somebody else out there, please come forward. That all suggests that maybe they have a child's statement but nothing else.
GRACE: Let's go to Bullhead City, Arizona. Bullhead, are you with me?
CALLER: Yes, Nancy. Hi.
CALLER: My question for the panel is -- '93 allegations, everything in between, suspicious to peoples' minds, and still he's allowed -- I'm in support of Michael. I think he's had to go through a lot. Why is he allowed to, you know, have his three children, which I believe he takes care of, but it was never in the question of anybody's mind while he was obtaining his three children.
GRACE: Good point. Let's go to Diane. Diane, I've only got a few seconds left. Can you respond?
DIMOND: I think it was on a lot of peoples' minds, as he got each one of those children. California -- or I'm sorry, Children's public service -- the people here, the social workers here, are not yet involved, as far as I know. But then, we wouldn't know because it's always kept secret. I think it may be one reason why Michael Jackson went back to Vegas after the booking today. I don't think he wants to bring those kids back here to California just yet. I don't blame him.
GRACE: We are taking a quick break, everyone. More on the Michael Jackson investigation when we come back. Stay with us.
GRACE: Everyone, thank you for being with me tonight, Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King. I want to thank all of my guests -- Diane Dimond with Court TV, Steve Manning, Jim Hammer, Jann Carl, Chris Pixley and Dr. Robi Ludwig.
Right now, we're going over to Aaron Brown and "NEWSNIGHT."
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