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PAULA ZAHN NOW
Michael Jackson In Crisis After Molestation Charges; New Warnings About Al Qaeda Attacking U.S. Interests Again; Interview With Jackson Goddaughter Nicole Richie
Aired November 21, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): In focus tonight, Michael Jackson in crisis. I'll be talking with some of his most devoted fans about why they're sticking by him as he faces multiple charges of child molestation.
New warnings tonight that al Qaeda may attack U.S. interests again soon, with bombings in Istanbul and continued attacks in Iraq has any real progress been made in the war on terror? We'll talk with someone whose fiction comes frighteningly close to fact, Tom Clancy.
And on the eve of the 40th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, an intimate look at the nation's 35th president through some never before seen photographs.
ZAHN: And good even and welcome. Thanks for closing out the week with us here, all of that ahead tonight.
First, though here's what you need to know right now. Jurors in the trial of convicted sniper John Allen Muhammad have now recessed for the weekend. Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty for Muhammad. A death sentence could require a unanimous decision by the jury.
Now on to Michael Jackson, he is believed to be staying at a hotel outside Las Vegas just a day after he was charged with multiple counts of child molestation.
CNN's David Mattingly is standing by live with the very latest, good evening David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Paula.
Every tip, rumor and credible indication tells us that Michael Jackson is still sequestered in the resort that you see behind me. Earlier today we were at the studio where Jackson recently finished the finishing touches on his new video.
Studio executives there told us that the Jackson family had agreed to a network interview at their studios in support of Michael Jackson; however, at the time they told us that we were only able to confirm the presence of Michael's older brother Jermaine there on the property.
Studio executives also told us that Jermaine is continuing with plans for a Jackson family tour and new album with Michael Jackson this in spite of the child molestation charges that are pending against him.
Jackson's arrival in Las Vegas last night, so many people watched that as it meandered through the streets of Las Vegas. Today, Jackson continues to be under fire, however.
Gloria Allred, a California attorney, has filed a complaint asking that the county child welfare people in Santa Barbara County investigate whether or not his children might be at risk so very much tonight Michael Jackson still under fire in spite of what a seemingly friendly reception he received here in Las Vegas yesterday - Paula.
ZAHN: David Mattingly, thanks so much for the update.
We move on now. This time yesterday we all watched as supporters swarmed Jackson's car in the streets of Las Vegas. You probably remember those pictures so despite the allegations many of his fans are standing by his side like these fans did last night.
Joining us from Las Vegas are two of them, Donna Green and her 15-year-old son Brian. Donna is the president of one of his fan clubs. Brian has visited Jackson's Neverland Ranch and has also gone shopping with him. Welcome to both of you, glad to have both of you with us tonight.
DONNA GREEN, PRESIDENT, JACKSON FAN CLUB: Hi, Paula, thank you.
BRIAN GREEN: Hi.
ZAHN: So, Donna, when you heard the news about these multiple counts of child molestation you hear the movement by an attorney tonight to get his three children removed from his custody does it make you have any second thoughts about your own children having spent time with him?
D. GREEN: No, not at all, not at all.
ZAHN: Tell me why.
D. GREEN: Because you have to understand, yes I'm a fan but I've also been fortunate enough to speak with Michael many times in the past four or five years on the phone and it was about two weeks ago that I met him face to face. But like I said I've spent time on the phone with him, several conversations within the past couple of years and I've had conversations with him talking about children.
I know his heart. I know what he's like. He would never harm anybody, a child, an adult, anybody. He's the type of person that would give the shirt off his back. I mean this man is constantly attacked all the time more than any celebrity in the whole world. It's always Michael all the time. They're always picking on him. I don't understand it. ZAHN: But, Donna, even his most ardent supporters say sometimes he's his own worst enemy. You watched the documentary where he admitted to his interviewer that he thought it was loving to share a bed with children. Do you think that's normal?
D. GREEN: OK, can I - OK let me comment on that. That's a comment that really needs to be addressed here because like what you just said and many others have said he said that but you're leaving out the other part that he said right after that. He said he sleeps on the floor and why doesn't people - why don't people say that part?
Go back and look at that tape. He said he sleeps on the floor. There's nothing wrong with that but do you know what they want to make it sexual honestly. I mean why don't they put the part where he said he sleeps on the floor? Why do they leave that out?
ZAHN: I guess, yes, I guess you could parse it both ways because the first part of that does stand on its own. Brian, you spent some time with Michael Jackson. You went shopping with him. You've been to Neverland Ranch. How did he treat you?
BRIAN GREEN, JACKSON FAN: He's very nice. He's very caring for anyone who's around him. He would never heard a child and the way he treated me was with respect. He is very nice. He, the way you said that is like how did he treat you? He never laid a finger on me or anything like that, nothing sexual, nothing like that.
ZAHN: So, Donna, if you believe this is a bunch of lies, of course the same serious kind of allegation being lodged against him since 1993 what do you think it's all about then?
D. GREEN: Money, extortion, let's get Michael Jackson. Let's hang him. You know we didn't do it in '93. Let's do it now. With the new family, the new child I have, you know, I can speculate who it is although I don't know. It hasn't been confirmed but I have speculation who it is.
And I just think, you know, they claim it's not for money then, you know, maybe not now but maybe down the road. Maybe down the road it's for money or a book deal or a TV deal or whatever. I mean it's really ridiculous.
And another thing, you know, even with the boy back in '93, you know, these aren't three and 4-year-old children that don't know any better. These are kids that are twelve, 13, 14 years old something like that. Hey, they know right from wrong and they claimed that it happened not just once but over, you know, a period of time.
You know my son is 15. If that happened one time, Michael Jackson or the guy next door he wouldn't be going back. He wouldn't want to but these kids kept going back. That's what - how come no one brings that up. If Michael Jackson was doing that why did the kids keep going back?
ZAHN: Well, Brian, I've heard what your mother just said but a lot of folks have argued that some of the parents along the way might have been irresponsible.
B. GREEN: That's right, you know. If he was accused of that and they truly believed that why would you let your kids there? Even though I know in my heart and he knows in his heart that it's not true, you know, if you're the parent of that kid why would you let him go back? And if there kid is old enough to know right from wrong why are you still going back multiple times? It just doesn't sound right.
D. GREEN: Exactly.
ZAHN: Donna, a final question for you tonight. His own brother has described this as, at least the prosecutorial efforts as a lynching effort. In your heart of hearts do you think there is a possibility he will be found guilty of these charges?
D. GREEN: I really hope not. The Michael Jackson I know it's impossible for them to find him guilty. I just can't imagine that at all. I mean but one thing I want to stress, I mean I'm not talking as a fan who's, you know, blinded because he's Michael Jackson, blinded by the celebrity.
You know I mean if I thought for a moment he was guilty, you know, celebrity or not, you know, I wouldn't stand for it but I really, I firmly believe in his innocence. Like I said I know his heart. I've spoken to him. I've spoken to him on the phone.
I don't know if Michael remembers. He talks to so many people but I remember one time a few years ago he called me and it happened to be right after children were at his ranch that had cancer that were dying and they had left.
And he happened to call my house and he started talking about it and the man was crying, literally crying to me on the phone because he was so - he was upset that, you know, here are these kids, you know.
He was happy to make them happy, you know. They had a great day at Neverland but, you know, the reality is that they had cancer and he couldn't help them and he was so hurt and so brokenhearted. That's the Michael Jackson I know.
ZAHN: Yes, I don't think many people doubt, yes, I don't think a whole lot of people have doubted that compassion along the way. It's just those larger issues (unintelligible).
D. GREEN: And, you know I would...
ZAHN: And, Donna, unfortunately I've got to move along. I want to thank you and Brian very much for spending some time with us this evening.
D. GREEN: Thank you very much.
ZAHN: Appreciate it.
D. GREEN: Thank you.
B. GREEN: Thank you.
ZAHN: I'm going to bring in another big fan of Michael Jackson, Deborah Donnelly is president of Michael Jackson Fan Club. Donnelly and her daughter and her grandson have all met Jackson. They've all been to Neverland Ranch and she joins us tonight from Corpus Christi, Texas. Welcome to you.
DEBORAH DANNELLY, MICHAEL JACKSON FAN CLUB: Hello.
ZAHN: Do you believe these charges?
DANNELLY: No, I don't.
ZAHN: Why don't you?
DANNELLY: Because the man that I know would never do these things.
ZAHN: And how well do you really think you know him?
DANNELLY: I think I know him pretty well. I've spoken with him, met him on several occasions. I've been to Neverland several times, held his 45th birthday party for him in August and I think I know him pretty well. I've been a fan for 36 years.
ZAHN: Is it possible for you, though, to completely discount this? This is the second time that this whole issue of child molestation has been brought up against him. The first time of course there was a settlement out of court. Isn't there something strange about this in your mind?
DANNELLY: I don't - no, I don't see that as strange. I just think that he's a target.
ZAHN: Would your feelings change if he's convicted of these charges?
DANNELLY: I would have to see that he gets a fair trial. I want to see that he gets a fair trial and that's the focus of the fans and the Michael Jackson Fan Club is to see that he gets a fair trial.
ZAHN: Do you think he will?
DANNELLY: I don't think he's getting a fair trial now.
DANNELLY: I think that he's being tried in the press. I think that the press conference that was held was obviously they were not very serious. You could tell by their tone and by some of the statements that they made and the fact that they were laughing it off that they're not taking this seriously. Government officials, somebody that works for the government you would think would handle themselves in a more appropriate manner.
ZAHN: Deborah Dannelly we appreciate your perspective in all this tonight. Thank you very much for joining us.
Now the last time Jackson faced these kinds of allegations he reached an out of court settlement, which I mentioned, with the accuser but what kind of legal battle is he facing this around?
This time I am joined by Jeffrey Toobin, always good to see you.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.
ZAHN: I want to follow up on a point that our last guest just made. She was very troubled by the tone of the news conference when there was a lot of noise surrounding these charges that were about to come down.
Let's replay a small part of that news conference when the district attorney took some questions from the press.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you say to parents who let their children go to Neverland Ranch on sleepovers?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My advice is don't do it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None of our kids were there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Whoa. Now did the district attorney betray his own sense of discipline by being so cavalier?
TOOBIN: You know this trial...
ZAHN: Was he cavalier or not?
TOOBIN: This trial will end 12, 18 months from now and I doubt that will be a significant moment but today I think it was a low moment for the district attorney. I don't think that's an appropriate way to behave.
There was speculation that went on in that press conference. District Attorney Sneddon made reference he had knowledge of civil cases that went away. I don't think it was a professional way to behave. He's got a long time to redeem himself. He's had a long career. He should be judged I hope by other days than that because that was not a very good day for him.
ZAHN: And he did seem to backtrack a little from those comments late yesterday and today. He said it is a serious case. It deserves serious discretion to be used. What kind of case does he have?
TOOBIN: You know I think the only responsible thing to say at this point is we simply don't know. Is this kid a credible witness? Does he have financial motives? When did he report this? What did they find in those search warrants? Did they find photographs? Did they find videotapes?
I don't know. I don't think anybody knows at this point and to speculate about whether it's a strong case or not at this point is just, I don't think it's responsible.
ZAHN: How many people do you think are out to get Michael Jackson?
TOOBIN: I think there are plenty. I think there are plenty but there are also people out to prosecute him who believe deeply in what they're doing in protecting individual kids and society at large. So, I think you can't dismiss this whole case as a vendetta. That's just not fair.
ZAHN: Well, that was a question that was posed today and the DA pretty much shot that down. He said this is not a personal vendetta. Anybody who thinks I spent ten years waiting to do something to Michael Jackson hasn't gotten a clue. To think it's for political reasons, he said, is total poppycock.
TOOBIN: OK and remember this is a guy who has never filed charges against Michael Jackson before. If he was so hell bent on doing it he might have done it once before. Sure he had an investigation in '93. It didn't lead to charges.
Ten years later he's investigating him again. That doesn't strike me as someone who, as happens with some prosecutors, charge the same person over and over again.
Remember Ken Starr accused Susan McDougal repeatedly of different crimes. You could maybe argue there was a vendetta there. I think it's a tougher case to make here.
ZAHN: Jeffrey Toobin go sail off into the weekend my man.
TOOBIN: All right, you too.
ZAHN: Thanks for all your good help this week.
TOOBIN: All right.
ZAHN: Criminal charges are not the only problem confronting Michael Jackson. By some accounts lavish spending has left him deeply in debt. I'll be talking with a journalist who's investigated Jackson's finances.
I'll also be talking with best-selling spy novelist Tom Clancy as the nation faces another warning about al Qaeda and plans to attack U.S. targets.
And a note left behind by an eyewitness to history, something her family just found after some 40 years.
ZAHN: As the weekend approaches there are warnings tonight that al Qaeda may be plotting to hit U.S. interests again soon.
National Security Correspondent David Ensor reports on the latest advisory.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: U.S. officials are warning that there are indications al Qaeda could attack again soon against U.S. interests most likely overseas.
The warning is coming after the government's new terrorist threat information center which is housed at the CIA sent out an advisory last night to federal agencies telling them there's increased chatter among potential terrorists, things like intercepted conversations, some information that human spies have brought in and Internet activity among other things.
All put together they think the situation looks ominous and that on top of the state of attacks in Turkey in recent days and before then the attack in Saudi Arabia that is what prompted the warning officials say. They're particularly concerned about the next week or so, the last days of the Muslim holiday of Ramadan and the days immediately after that.
While the greatest concern is about U.S. facilities and American companies overseas, as well as allies, officials say that this country is not immune and this evening the Department of Homeland Security warned state and local agencies to be vigilant. They are saying that al Qaeda remains interested in aviation and in possibly using a cargo plane to attack a critical infrastructure target.
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
ZAHN: The terror warnings came a day after bombings in Turkey killed 30 people, wounded 450, yet the president says we are winning the war on terror. What do you think?
Well, to talk about that I'm joined from Washington by best- selling author Tom Clancy. His new book is called "The Teeth of the Tiger," nice cover there. And here in the studio I'm joined by regular contributor "TIME" magazine columnist Joe Klein and we're dying for your next book as well, Joe.
JOE KLEIN, PAULA ZAHN NOW CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: Welcome, Tom. I want to start with you this evening.
TOM CLANCY, AUTHOR: Thank you.
ZAHN: A major theme of your new book is terror and as you write about this subject what is your thinking? Have we made real progress?
CLANCY: I'd say we have, yes. I mean we've probably killed off a lot of the Taliban people in Afghanistan and our country is mobilizing itself against this threat and, you know, democracies are slow to anger but once they get angry they stay angry.
ZAHN: Well, let me ask you this though about your point about the Taliban because there is concern. We just interviewed the Afghanistan foreign minister about the reconstitution of the Taliban in certain parts of Afghanistan. Is that something that concerns you?
CLANCY: Not really because, look, the Afghans probably had a belly full of those people. It's mostly unlikely to me and I'm sure to your own people in Afghanistan they're going to tolerate a return of those bums besides which they're going to have to answer to the United States military if they try to do that and I don't think that's something they want to do.
ZAHN: Joe, let me ask you this. Do you think we are any safer today domestically than we were on September 10th, 2001?
KLEIN: Well, in some ways yes, in terms of airline safety and so on but in many ways my intelligence sources tell me that the massive attacks like September 11th are less likely but there is a great deal more franchising going on. Al Qaeda is franchising out terrorist operations around the world.
ZAHN: Because they've lost their centralization.
KLEIN: Yes, and the other thing is this. I spoke to someone the other day who said, who should know, who said we're getting very good at killing terrorists but I'm afraid they're producing more terrorists than we're killing.
ZAHN: So, Tom, what do you think is the U.S.' greatest shortcoming in this battle?
CLANCY: Well, the obvious answer to that is lack of human intelligence because we spent the 1970s destroying the CIA's ability to gather human intelligence because we destroyed the director of operations, the DO at CIA because we thought they did bad things.
Well, maybe they have to do bad things but if you're going to go down a rat hole looking for a rat you better have a pointy nose and whiskers. Our principal objective now as a nation is to reestablish our intelligence capabilities.
That will be an effort of years because you don't just hire and turn them loose and have them turn out good work. As a police officer graduates from a police academy with a badge and a gun he is not as good as the guy who has been out there for 20 years and, therefore, the people we're hiring now for the DO at CIA are going to take years to learn their trade. However, we got to start now and get this capability back.
ZAHN: Let's, Joe, talk a moment how this is all playing out politically. There is a Republican National Committee ad which will begin airing in Iowa over this weekend. Let's all take a look at this together.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Take one vial, one canister, one crate, slipped into this country could bring a day of horror like none we have ever known. Our war against terror is a contest of will in which perseverance is power.
Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions politely putting us on notice before they strike?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Are you surprised by this?
KLEIN: Well, no. This is politics and it's inaccurate and it's scurrilous to a certain extent although some of the things the Democrats have said about the president have been scurrilous as well. Look, this is...
ZAHN: So it's equal opportunity bashing is what you think?
KLEIN: This is the most serious foreign policy crisis we have faced in a long time in this country. We're coming to a presidential campaign where there has to be a serious discussion of the choices that this president has made in fighting this war on terrorism. There is a lot of room for discussion here. There are things that he may have done really wrong but the discussion needs to be elevated on both sides.
ZAHN: You see that happening?
ZAHN: That's what I thought.
CLANCY: You know we'd be better if the news media knew a little bit about what they're talking about. All too often the news media is quick to report negative stuff said by people of dubious knowledge and even more dubious motives about what America is doing in the world. I mean...
KLEIN: We've had an experience here where the administration has pronounced many dubious - many things that the intelligence community was dubious about over the past year and there's reason to question the choices that were made.
For example, we went to war in Iraq but we haven't done anything about the madrassas, the religious schools across the entire arc of Islam that are turning out terrorists by the dozens.
ZAHN: Well, both of you raised some interesting points that we will continue to debate in the weeks to come.
CLANCY: No, what America needs to do now most of all as a matter of national strategy is to embrace Islam. Islam is not a religion of psychopaths. It's a religion that believes in the one God just like we do and if we can embrace Islam and emphasize the commonalities we have with them and not the differences and just recognize the fact that a true Muslim is nor more interested in murdering Americans than somebody in Chicago has then maybe we can separate Osama bin Laden from the base, you know, the sea in which the guerilla fish swims.
ZAHN: Well, you look a little more skeptical, Joe, but you'll have to come back next week and explain to us why. Thank you for both joining us tonight, appreciate both of your points of view.
A half billion dollars earned in a career, maybe even $750 million, not bad for Michael Jackson but I'm going to be talking with a journalist who says Jackson has spent his way into enormous debt.
And we're going to hear the words of a woman who was just 20 feet away from President John F. Kennedy when he was assassinated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone says someone was shot, the president. No, no, dear God no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Welcome back.
Tomorrow is the 40th anniversary of the assassination of President Kennedy. So much has been written and is said about JFK since then. It may be surprising to hear anything new.
But one story of - has only just recently come to light an eyewitness account of the shooting written on the day President Kennedy died.
National Correspondent Kelly Wallace has more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I must get away from that horrible picture. I turn and I run.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Margaret Taylor reads a note left behind by an eyewitness to history. She knew her late mother, June Dishong was just about 20 feet from President and Mrs. Kennedy those fateful moments in Dallas but Taylor says her mother never talked about what she saw and kept this a secret, a ten- page detailed narrative she wrote the day the president was killed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We never worried about it.
MARGARET TAYLOR: We just found it accidentally when we was cleaning her house.
WALLACE: That was after her mother died in 1998 just a month before she would have turned 90.
TAYLOR: And this was the day he would drive through Dallas. WALLACE: Her mother writes about the weather, rushing to work as a garment maker across from Dealey Plaza, and then trying to get a glimpse of the Kennedy's.
TAYLOR: And here comes the president and his wife, no hat on his head, his arm in the air waving and that great big smile of his, Jackie beside him.
WALLACE: She gets specific, mentioning Jackie's pink suit, her pillbox hat, and then this.
TAYLOR: Suddenly, a sound, gunshot, hard to tell above the clamor of the crowd. The president bent forward into his wife's lap as his arms slipped off the side of the car. Jackie circled him with her arms.
WALLACE: Another shot, panic among the people, she writes, parents rushing their children to the ground.
TAYLOR: No one knows where the shots are coming from. They cried the president has been shot. A third shot, people scatter. I can't believe what I have seen the picture of the man falling forward.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's like being there.
WALLACE: Had Dishong come forward the Warren Commission would likely have interviewed her, some experts say.
STEVEN TILLY, NATIONAL ARCHIVES: The main thing that I see there is that she heard three shots and, of course, that's the main controversy is was there a second gunman.
TAYLOR: No, no, dear God no.
WALLACE: She writes of people crying, praying and hoping and then word he is dead.
TAYLOR: No matter how bright the sun is it will be forever a dark day.
WALLACE: Taylor, amazed by her mother's eloquence regrets she never opened up about that tragic day.
TAYLOR: I feel like I've lost something from her by not being able to talk to her about it.
WALLACE: Now her family hopes to bring more attention to what may be one of the only same day written eyewitness accounts not impacted by time or conspiracy theories of a day that changed America.
Kelly Wallace CNN, Canton, Texas.
ZAHN: Coming up we're going to bring you the very latest information on the Michael Jackson case from our David Mattingly in Henderson, Nevada where Jackson is believed to be staying tonight.
And as the nation remembers JFK, we will see some remarkable pictures of the Kennedys just now being published. Some of them are considered...
ZAHN: Welcome back. Here's what you need to know right now, David Mattingly is standing by in Henderson, Nevada, where Michael Jackson is believed to be staying. And for some of the reporters there, including David, this may be a case of deja vu if he can stand in all that wind. Good evening, David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Paula. Deja vu is right. It dates back to the early '80s, early '80s I believe, in Birmingham, Alabama where we were staking out a hotel there where Jackson and his brothers were staying at the time. There were there for several days.
They managed to elude all of the cameras and the hundreds of people outside the hotel the entire time they were there. After they left, we learned that Michael was exiting and entering the hotel through the kitchen. He was hiding inside of one of those stainless steel food carts. So the point here being that if Michael Jackson does not want to be seen, he will not be seen. He is clearly not being seen today in Las Vegas.
The Jackson family, however, very strong ties to Las Vegas. Back in the '70s Michael and his brother were a huge headlining act on the strip, today his father and some of his sisters have homes here.
And it's important to remember that ten years ago, after similar child molestation allegations, Jackson came back to Las Vegas where he received a warm reception. So this city in the desert very much a home away from home for him, Paula.
ZAHN: David Mattingly, thanks for the update. Appreciate it.
ZAHN Well, besides the criminal case, he may also be facing a financial crisis despite earning more than half a billion in his career, Jackson is now believed to be heavily in debt. His lavish lifestyle and spending sprees catching up with him.
Joining us now is Brett Pulley, a senior editor for "Forbes" magazine, who has chronicled the decline of the Jackson fortune. And you got all dressed up for us this evening, welcome.
BRETT PULLEY, "FORBES": Absolutely. Tuxedo and everything.
ZAHN: Nothing but the best for this show. It's estimated, as we said, that Michael Jackson could have earned as much as $750 million during the course of his career. Where has it all gone? PULLEY: Well, one thing is for sure, Michael has spent plenty of money. There's all this anecdotal evidence out there about this profligate spending: the $10,000 bottles of perfume, the $2 million wrist watches, the $5 million shopping sprees, so we know he spent a lot.
But I don't think anything more better underscores the outrageous spending and how that's out of line with the revenue side, than did the last album, "Invincible." That's an album he spent an estimated $25, $30 million amount to produce. That's an album he spent an estimated $25 to $30 million to produce, and unheard of amount. Now the album did respectably, except for the fact he spent so much. It did about 8 million units worldwide. For any other album that would be okay, but not when you spend $30 million.
ZAHN: Well, let's look at this gradual decline of record sales. We have a graphic I think that will reinforce what you've just said. "Thriller" was high at $115 million, "Blood on the Dance floor" $10 million, "Invincible," as you mentioned, $15 million, his new album, "Number Ones," which is the greatest hits album was released on Tuesday, hopes not very high, they're saying about 100,000 sold, in the week since it's release on Tuesday, about half of what they expected.
PULLEY: That's right. Well, there's no doubt, as far as his recorded music goes, we have seen declining sales. One thing we can't forgot about Michael is he has a very, very valuable asset, and that is his 50 percent of Sony ATV, and that's all of Sony's publishing business. That's what people typically refer to as the Beatles catalog.
What Michael did was Michael purchased the Beatles publishing, merged those with Sony's publishing assets. They formed Sony ATV. Michael owns 50 percent of all of that. That's a real business kicking off real revenue on a regular basis.
ZAHN: It's all on paper, though, isn't it?
PULLEY: The issue is, really, how much has Michael borrowed against that. You're right, it's on paper, how liquid is it? It's an asset that has real value, but how much equity does Michael have left in it, is a big question.
ZAHN: Well, let's explore that. According to CNNmoney, here are some of the his expenses, in addition to what you mentioned with the $10,000 bottles of perfume. A $240,000 for the upkeep of Neverland, $195,000 for limousine rentals, his personal staff costs $375,000 a month. It doesn't look like he's gotten the message here that the funds don't last forever.
PULLEY: Just as recent as yesterday, it's my understanding that there was -- when he left Santa Barbara after being booked there was a decoy plane. That's the kind of excessive spending we're talking about. Why does Michael Jackson at this point, when he's turning himself in on criminal charges, his cash is tight, why does he need a decoy plane? ZAHN: Depending on which way this goes in court, do you anticipate a fire sale of some of these assets?
PULLEY: Well, I think that if Michael finds himself in a really prolonged battle, where he has consistently paid this sort of dream team of lawyers, and public relation executives, we might see some of the assets block. And they might not be sold at price that they would have been sold for 6 months ago.
ZAHN: Brett Pulley, thank you for dropping by, in tuxedo and all minus the cumberbund and bow tie. Have a great weekend.
PULLEY: Thank you.
ZAHN: And I'll be talking with Michael Jackson's goddaughter, Nicole Richie, about her childhood visits to Jackson's Neverland Ranch.
And we're going to see some moving images of John Kennedy and his family never seen before.
And we'll hear from "TIME" magazine's Hugh Sidey about those early days of Camelot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUGH SIDEY, "TIME": I had the feeling from the beginning that this fellow was going to do probably the whole job. He was going to go all the way.
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ZAHN: One photographer more than any other is credited with helping create the myth of Camelot. Lowe, who died two years ago, took 40,000 pictures of the Kennedys, but never got the chance to publish his collection. And despite losing the negatives on 9/11, daughter Thomasina Lowe, and Kennedy scholar Hugh Sidey are fulfilling his dream in a new book, "Remembering Jack."
I talked with them both about these never before seen photos, and started by asking about a picture Lowe took on the first day he met John F. Kennedy.
THOMASINA LOWE, AUTHOR, "REMEMBERING JACK": It's an amazing photograph, actually. A lot of people don't realize that that was taken the first time that my father met Jack Kennedy. And when you look at the photographs, they look so relaxed and it's such an intimate photograph of Jack and Jackie, and Caroline has her mother's pearls in her mouth. And it's quite funny in a way, because my father left that shoot thinking that it hadn't gone well, because Jack Kennedy hadn't expected him on that day and he was really quite annoyed to see a photographer there, but actually when you look at the photograph, you see that it was, you know, it was a comfortable moment for everyone. ZAHN: Hugh, you began covering John Kennedy when he was a senator. Did you know from day one...
HUGH SIDEY, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Correct.
ZAHN: ... he was someone special who was destined to do very important things?
SIDEY: It was quite plain. This was a man of depth and feeling, and then, of course, this incredible -- the visual dimensions of these people, these Kennedys. That's why this book is so important. People talk about the Kennedy myth. You've got to see them. I mean, they had everything. It came together there, and with Kennedy, there's that marvelous head of hair, the teeth, the profile, the smile.
Yes, I had the feeling from the beginning that this fellow was going to do probably the whole job. He was going to go all the way.
ZAHN: Thomasina, a lot of these photographs we have never seen before, and there's one in particular of the two of them at a diner during a campaign stop that a lot of us were struck by. What's the significance of that photo?
LOWE: Yes, well, that's an interesting photograph. That was taken in the early days of the campaign. They're sitting at a diner, having a coffee, and Jack Kennedy used to laugh about that photograph in the months to come, because, of course, you know, no one was there, and they could sit quietly, you know, sipping their coffee. Of course, we all know now that, you know, months later, it would have been impossible for them to do that, and actually that turned out to be one of Jack Kennedy's favorite photographs, because he used to sort of look at it and try to remember those days when he had to work, you know, so hard at trying to get the crowds to come.
ZAHN: There was another picture that the president was very fond of, and this was a reflective moment. What was it about the picture that he liked?
LOWE: I know that Jack Kennedy liked that photograph. It was actually one of my father's favorite photographs, and it was a photograph that John Jr. had asked my father to give him not that long ago. And I think for my father, that photograph is particularly poignant, because it really showed the heartache and the struggle that comes with being on the campaign trail.
ZAHN: Hugh, you made an interesting point earlier about if you look at all of these pictures collectively, that anybody who questions the Camelot myth might want to think twice. So you don't think it was a myth?
SIDEY: I do not think it was a myth. It was a special time, and there was special feeling. It was not only the Kennedys, but they were terribly remarkable people, but it was what was happening in the world. It was the background, it was the attitude of America, it was this young group that had come out of World War II, the most educated generation we've ever had, and this kind of all came together in an idealism. And I think you pick that up in these pictures. There's a grace about these people, and you get the feeling of a, well, a little bit of Camelot, if you will.
LOWE: One of the things that my father was able to do with his photographs and one of the things that he loved about Jack Kennedy was that nothing was staged. You know, there was never a moment when Jack Kennedy would say, well, you can't take that photograph or you can't take this. My father had his 35 mm camera with him and he was free to move around, so you get a real sense of the whole story of Jack Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy and their families.
ZAHN: Hugh, a final reflection as we hit this 40-year marker of the president's assassination?
SIDEY: Well, indeed, you know, you can't still get your mind around that. As you know, I was in that first press bus in the motorcade in Dallas, and in a split second, the world had changed. A friend was dead, a president was dead, an administration, the new frontier, with all its young people was over with. We were all in this together. We were Americans. We weren't journalists, we weren't campaign workers. We had just suffered this terrible loss, and you know, we still suffer.
ZAHN: Hugh Sidey and Thomasina Lowe, sharing some remarkable images of JFK, taken by photographer Jacques Lowe.
Coming up, I'll be talking with the woman who was on Jacqueline Kennedy's staff at the White House about Camelots and those reports that the former first lady considered suicide after the death of the president.
And Michael Jackson's god daughter joins us. I'll ask Nicole Richie about growing up close to Jackson.
ZAHN: John F. Kennedy captured the nation with youth, style and a very elegant first lady. It was Jackie Kennedy who described those years as a brief shining moment known as Camelot. Letitia Baldrige was a part of those years. She was social secretary to Jackie Kennedy's chief of staff, and now Baldrige is an acclaimed author and expert on etiquette, with her new book, "Letitia Baldrige's New Manners for New Times: A Complete Guide to Etiquette." I will mind my manners with her this evening. She joins us live from our Washington bureau. Always good to see you, Letitia, welcome.
LETITIA BALDRIGE, AUTHOR: Always good to see you, Paula.
ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit about the intimacy of the relationship you shared with Jackie and her family. So much has been written about some of the challenges in their marriage. How did you view those challenges?
BALDRIGE: Well, she had a lot of challenges, but when I looked at her the she came into the White House at the age of 32, with no great experience, the way she took over the job of first lady, the way she went to foreign capitals and spoke foreign languages to the heads of state and absolutely wowed them. The way she entertained, as she'd always entertained, with such style and grace, and all of a sudden the whole White House turned around and became a place of enormous style and beauty. I mean, she did all that so any of the other challenges she just was able to do very easily.
ZAHN: Recently, some entries kept from a diary by a priest, Father Richard McSoutherly (ph), released to the press, they told of Jackie's thoughts of suicide shortly after the assassination of her husband. This is some of what he said, "do you think that God would separate me from my husband if I killed myself? I feel as though I am going out of my mind at times. Wouldn't God understand that I just want to be with him?" Do you remember Jackie ever being suicidal?
BALDRIGE: No, that was a woman in intense grief talking to her confessor. It was a private conversation, and anybody who had had terrible grief would talk to the priest or the doctor or the relative in that way. She didn't mean that she was going to commit suicide. Never. Never. She had two children to raise and that was her main mission in life. She was going to do a fantastic job of it.
ZAHN: You look at these pictures, and I guess it's hard to believe that some 40 years have passed since the assassination. What is your key memory of that day?
BALDRIGE: Of that day? I remember coming into the White House when it was totally still. There were hundreds of people in the White House, but not a sound. Usually it was full of noise and people running and children laughing, and bells ringing to say the president was coming, Secret Service running around. Now everybody was walking softly and quietly, not a word. It was a real mausoleum in that White House during those three days.
ZAHN: What do you want people to remember about the former president?
BALDRIGE: I want them to remember this was a time in history when people had wonderful thoughts, they were patriotic, they cared about their country, we had no Michael Jackson scandals. We had people who did wonderful things, and they made the headlines. That's what we read about, people of quality, people who were contributing to their country. That's what we read about.
ZAHN: Well, we appreciate your spending a little time with us this evening to remember this.
BALDRIGE: Nice to be with us, Paula.
ZAHN: On the eve of his assassination some 40 years ago. How did I do with my manners tonight? Was I ok?
BALDRIGE: You were sensational.
ZAHN: I was inspired by looking at your new book, called "New Manners For New Times." I'm trying to keep up with the times.
BALDRIGE: You don't need it. Thanks so much.
ZAHN: Nicole Richie, Michael Jackson's goddaughter will join us. I'll ask about her memories of childhood visits to his Neverland Ranch.
ZAHN: Monday celebrity columnist Victoria Goddy joins us. She had the story on the Jackson case two months before his arrest this week.
Right now we move to a person close to Michael Jackson. They all appear to be closing ranks, showing their support for the entertainer. Many of them say they find the accusations very hard to believe. One of those people is Nicole Richie, she's is the daughter of singer of Lionel Richie and goddaughter of Michael Jackson. She joins us live from Los Angeles this evening, welcome.
NICOLE RICHIE, GODDAUGHTER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Nice to see you, thank you.
ZAHN: You don't believe any of these charges? Not the formal charges, but the accusations going back to '93?
RICHIE: I truly don't. I really don't. I cannot imagine Michael doing anything like that. I spent so much time like him and nothing even remotely close ever happened that I would think -- I mean, I just really don't think he would ever doing something like that.
ZAHN: Let's look at some of the things he said in the past in interviews. In particular to Martin Bashir.
He says, "Why can't you share your bed. The most loving thing to do is share your bed with someone. Then he was asked, "Is it really appropriate for a 44 year-old man to share a bedroom with a child who is not related to him at all?" And he answered, "That's a beautiful thing."
Do you think that's an appropriate thing for a grown man to say?
RICHIE: I probably would have answered a little bit differently. You know, I -- I mean, I feel like he is just -- he's just very loving. He is just a very kind man. And he just wants to kind of, you know, just like share everything. And, you know, the sharing of the bed, I never slept in there with him alone. It was more of just like, okay, let's all kind of -- it was just very sweet. It was let's all like go to sleep, and it was wherever you fell asleep. It was very casual. It wasn't like alluring, seductive, anything like that.
ZAHN: How many people would be in his bedroom at a time?
RICHIE: I would say like four or five.
ZAHN: And there wasn't anything about that that made you uncomfortable?
RICHIE: Nothing at all. Or my parents uncomfortable. My parents would never put me in a situation that they weren't sure of.
ZAHN: Even if they charges ended up not being true and he's found not guilty, as a friend, have you been concerned that someone didn't remove him from situations where he would appear to be compromised?
RICHIE: Well, I mean, being Michael Jackson and being as big as Michael Jackson, it's kind of like, you really have to look out for yourself. You know, I mean, people are going come after him. It's going to happen.
It actually really hurts me, because obviously I hear -- it's talked about all over the place, and people say, did you hear about Michael Jackson? Well, he is molesting little boys. No, he hasn't molested little boys. He's being accused of molesting little boys.
And he's innocent until proven guilty. People don't hear that. They don't hear the accused of or possibly. they have already labeled him. I can't even fathom how much that would hurt a person.
ZAHN: Well, Nicole Richie, we appreciate you sharing your perspective, and good luck with your new show which we're going to debuting around the first of the year. Thanks so much.
And that wraps it up for all of us here. LARRY KING LIVE is next. Thanks so much for joining us tonight. We hope you have a really good weekend. We'll be back here same time, same place, Monday night.
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