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American Morning

Change in Iraq

Aired November 25, 2003 - 08:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Iraqi insurgents changing their tactics according to U.S. leadership there. Paul Bremer says insurgents are attacking Iraqis who work with the U.S., instead of the U.S. force themselves. John Burns, chief foreign correspondent for "The New York Times," has a very unique perspective on the entire conflict. He left Baghdad in May, just days after the president declared major combat was over. He then returned later that month. He's back in the states briefly now, and joins us here to talk about the changes you've seen. And there have been many.
And honor to talk with you this morning, and thank you for spending -- I've got a million questions for you.

First of all, what do you make of Paul Bremer saying the attacks on U.S. forces are down, Iraqi attacks are up?

JOHN BURNS, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": It's very difficult to know what's in the mind of the people directing this, because we don't know who they are. We presume it's Saddam Hussein, but it seems to me that it's not hard to conclude that they've seen that the United States intends to return sovereignty to the Iraqis by next summer, or on an accelerated schedule.

There is an increasing feeling amongst Iraqis that the United States military commitment to Iraq is not an open-ended one, so naturally, they're beginning to refocus their attentions on the people who have worked with the Americans.

HEMMER: You talked about somebody -- why are the insurgents so elusive? Why are they so difficult to track down in their own country?

BURNS: Well, because they are in their own country, and because there are 130,000 American troops, which seems a lot to us sitting here. But when you see that country, the size of France, it seems very few, and they're very vulnerable, of course. You might say the insurgents have most of the advantages on their side. They can swim like fishes in the sea.

HEMMER: When you look at this from this side of the world, it seems like these attacks on Americans are almost easy, almost like they're cherry picking at times. Is that the case?

BURNS: It's a frightening thing, I must say, to travel the roads of Iraq now, as we do. And we, journalists, are not the primary targets. I suspect that we may become targets. And we may be incidental targets now. But when you see the risks and the threats to American forces traveling down any road into any community, you have to think that there are a lot of brave men there.

HEMMER: Yes.

We talked so much during the conflict about the hearts and minds. It really was a catch phrase during this conflict. You have said that the Pentagon literally went to school based on the Vietnam example, and they're applying it here. How do you see that?

BURNS: I think the generation of commanding officers now in Iraq, even if they were not in Vietnam, certainly, at their war college, went to school on what happened there. General Ricardo Sanchez, who heads the operation in Iraq now, his brother was in Vietnam. He went to Texas A&M instead, be but clearly has understood the lessons. And at every level of the American command, you find this concern to try and keep the people with them. It's an extremely difficult thing to do. But there's a real effort being made to do that consistent with providing for their own security. It's a difficult balance.

HEMMER: Do you think the Iraqis pick up on that, or not?

BURNS: They do. To a much greater degree than I think is understood.

I have recently on a number of occasion been to truck bombing sites and other places of great stress, and there's a great clamor amongst the Iraqis. I've said to them again and again, would you like the message I send to America is America get out, troops out? And the unvarying response to that, even in the Sunni Triangle, amongst ordinary people is no.

HEMMER: Is that so?

BURNS: That will be civil war, that will be chaos.

HEMMER: Wow.

You did a little bit of, I guess informal polling down in Nasiriyah when the Italians were hit and killed there, and that's what they told you there, too, even outside the Sunni Triangle, that's the impression you get?

BURNS: They did, and I was in the heart of the Sunni Triangle as recently as two days ago. In a place where American troops have been frequently attacked and killed, and asked the same thing of villagers there, and it was the same response -- they want sovereignty, they want power returned to their own people, they would like the American troops to get out as soon as possible, but they do not want a premature American withdrawal.

HEMMER: John, tell me, what's getting better? Go back to mid- April, since that time, what's better now?

BURNS: Freedom. Freedom comes at a price. And of course it takes a lot of time to adjust to that freedom. The Iraqis, many of them, sort of hanker for the stability of certainty of life, even if it was a life of appalling repression before. It takes time for people to mature to the uses of freedom. But all things are now possible in Iraq, for everybody. And Iraq was a country where very little was possible for anybody except Saddam and his Tikriti elite.

HEMMER: Thanks for your time. I want to make mention you're receiving an award tonight in New York for the Committee to Protect Journalist, the Burton Benjamin (ph) Memorial Award, for your coverage and your time in Baghdad. Save travels, all right? I'll see you there some time soon, OK. John Burns.

BURNS: Thank you very much indeed.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 25, 2003 - 08:31   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Iraqi insurgents changing their tactics according to U.S. leadership there. Paul Bremer says insurgents are attacking Iraqis who work with the U.S., instead of the U.S. force themselves. John Burns, chief foreign correspondent for "The New York Times," has a very unique perspective on the entire conflict. He left Baghdad in May, just days after the president declared major combat was over. He then returned later that month. He's back in the states briefly now, and joins us here to talk about the changes you've seen. And there have been many.
And honor to talk with you this morning, and thank you for spending -- I've got a million questions for you.

First of all, what do you make of Paul Bremer saying the attacks on U.S. forces are down, Iraqi attacks are up?

JOHN BURNS, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": It's very difficult to know what's in the mind of the people directing this, because we don't know who they are. We presume it's Saddam Hussein, but it seems to me that it's not hard to conclude that they've seen that the United States intends to return sovereignty to the Iraqis by next summer, or on an accelerated schedule.

There is an increasing feeling amongst Iraqis that the United States military commitment to Iraq is not an open-ended one, so naturally, they're beginning to refocus their attentions on the people who have worked with the Americans.

HEMMER: You talked about somebody -- why are the insurgents so elusive? Why are they so difficult to track down in their own country?

BURNS: Well, because they are in their own country, and because there are 130,000 American troops, which seems a lot to us sitting here. But when you see that country, the size of France, it seems very few, and they're very vulnerable, of course. You might say the insurgents have most of the advantages on their side. They can swim like fishes in the sea.

HEMMER: When you look at this from this side of the world, it seems like these attacks on Americans are almost easy, almost like they're cherry picking at times. Is that the case?

BURNS: It's a frightening thing, I must say, to travel the roads of Iraq now, as we do. And we, journalists, are not the primary targets. I suspect that we may become targets. And we may be incidental targets now. But when you see the risks and the threats to American forces traveling down any road into any community, you have to think that there are a lot of brave men there.

HEMMER: Yes.

We talked so much during the conflict about the hearts and minds. It really was a catch phrase during this conflict. You have said that the Pentagon literally went to school based on the Vietnam example, and they're applying it here. How do you see that?

BURNS: I think the generation of commanding officers now in Iraq, even if they were not in Vietnam, certainly, at their war college, went to school on what happened there. General Ricardo Sanchez, who heads the operation in Iraq now, his brother was in Vietnam. He went to Texas A&M instead, be but clearly has understood the lessons. And at every level of the American command, you find this concern to try and keep the people with them. It's an extremely difficult thing to do. But there's a real effort being made to do that consistent with providing for their own security. It's a difficult balance.

HEMMER: Do you think the Iraqis pick up on that, or not?

BURNS: They do. To a much greater degree than I think is understood.

I have recently on a number of occasion been to truck bombing sites and other places of great stress, and there's a great clamor amongst the Iraqis. I've said to them again and again, would you like the message I send to America is America get out, troops out? And the unvarying response to that, even in the Sunni Triangle, amongst ordinary people is no.

HEMMER: Is that so?

BURNS: That will be civil war, that will be chaos.

HEMMER: Wow.

You did a little bit of, I guess informal polling down in Nasiriyah when the Italians were hit and killed there, and that's what they told you there, too, even outside the Sunni Triangle, that's the impression you get?

BURNS: They did, and I was in the heart of the Sunni Triangle as recently as two days ago. In a place where American troops have been frequently attacked and killed, and asked the same thing of villagers there, and it was the same response -- they want sovereignty, they want power returned to their own people, they would like the American troops to get out as soon as possible, but they do not want a premature American withdrawal.

HEMMER: John, tell me, what's getting better? Go back to mid- April, since that time, what's better now?

BURNS: Freedom. Freedom comes at a price. And of course it takes a lot of time to adjust to that freedom. The Iraqis, many of them, sort of hanker for the stability of certainty of life, even if it was a life of appalling repression before. It takes time for people to mature to the uses of freedom. But all things are now possible in Iraq, for everybody. And Iraq was a country where very little was possible for anybody except Saddam and his Tikriti elite.

HEMMER: Thanks for your time. I want to make mention you're receiving an award tonight in New York for the Committee to Protect Journalist, the Burton Benjamin (ph) Memorial Award, for your coverage and your time in Baghdad. Save travels, all right? I'll see you there some time soon, OK. John Burns.

BURNS: Thank you very much indeed.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com