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American Morning

Death of Nathaniel Jones Has Sparked Anger in Cincinnati

Aired December 03, 2003 - 07:36   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: A new videotape is providing insight into the case of the man who died while in the custody of Cincinnati police. The surveillance video shows him dancing and marching around inside and outside of a restaurant shortly before police were called. Police video subsequently shows the man being subdued by officers outside the restaurant.
The death of Nathaniel Jones has sparked anger in Cincinnati.

Joining me this morning to discuss this case is the author of "A Lawyer's Life," Attorney Johnnie Cochran.

Good morning.

Nice to see you.

JOHNNIE COCHRAN, ATTORNEY: Good morning, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Thanks for coming in.

Boy, this is an interesting case. Many people have actually called for the police chief, Thomas Streicher, to step down. He is insisting that the officers actually followed normal procedure.

Weigh in for me on this case. Where do you think it's going to end up?

COCHRAN: Well, I think it's a close question. I think here, if the suspect assaulted the officers, he escalates it to another level. But there had been a history in this city in which the police had previously promised, in accordance with the Justice Department, to de- escalate these kinds of things.

So the question hinges upon whether or not the police had an opportunity to de-escalate. And perhaps they could have called in professionals.

If, however, the suspect, who was under PCP, perhaps, and maybe cocaine, escalated it himself, that would cause a real problem.

So this is, this may not be the best case to go in.

Now, of course...

O'BRIEN: To be a test case.

COCHRAN: To be a test case, right. O'BRIEN: Because there are certainly some people who say on the videotape you can see Nathaniel Jones clocking a police officer in the face. I mean that's essentially assault of a police officer. At the same time, here's a guy who's acting erratically, marching around, at one point had maybe passed out, wasn't really doing anything...

COCHRAN: That's right.

O'BRIEN: Wasn't in the middle of an armed holdup. They could have done nothing, right?

COCHRAN: They could have waited, you see, because ultimately he loses his life. And, you know, if they had perhaps waited, tried to contain him but not come, you know, get too close to him, perhaps. But, you know, police, by nature, you know, are aggressive. They want to solve problems. And, of course, this man was obviously disturbed. Whatever problems he had, you know, along with the fact that he was under the influence of something, made it a real difficult case. This is not the best case solver.

So I think the citizens there have to really take a hard look at this. I mean talk about it. A lot of information out there. They should do that. But it's not one in which I think people need to go off on any kind of a tangent. Let's play it through.

We need the coroner's report, the full coroner's report, and hopefully the police will learn something, though, about de- escalating. That's going to be very important, as well.

O'BRIEN: Because the community certainly up in arms. I think this is maybe the 15th case in which an African-American male was shot and killed or killed at the end of some kind of conflict with police officers.

How do you think community temperament is going to play in all of this? Do you think cooler minds, to some degree, will prevail? Because he's not a great test case. He's not a perfect citizen.

COCHRAN: That's right. See, he's not the citizen you'd like to, you know, be concerned about. He deserved to live, of course. And we don't know all the reasons behind that.

O'BRIEN: Right. Clearly.

COCHRAN: But I think it will be -- I think cooler heads will prevail. I think they've got some things in place now. I think they're going to go back and look at this again. And I hope that for the future they can learn, the officers can do more of the de- escalation aspect and also bring in the mental health response team. That would be very helpful to have them waiting. Because, as you said, where is he going to go?

O'BRIEN: It could have saved the guy's life.

COCHRAN: You know, I mean it would have saved his life, and I think that's going to be important. O'BRIEN: Somebody could always bring him down later.

COCHRAN: That's right, later on, yes.

O'BRIEN: They didn't have to do it at that moment.

All right, let's talk another high profile crime story. Scott Peterson being arraigned today. Mark Geragos, who is apparently, you know, everybody's lawyer, is handling this.

COCHRAN: Yes, he's busy these days.

O'BRIEN: They want to change a venue. This is a case that has been on the cover of "People" magazine sort of every other week practically.

COCHRAN: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: How much does that really matter, to change the venue?

COCHRAN: Well, you know, I think that probably in this case it does matter somewhat, Soledad, because in Modesto it's really going to be tough. I mean everybody knows about the case, clearly. And you've got to get people who can set things aside. I think it may be very difficult because that's the area where Laci Peterson, that beautiful smile, lived, you know, parents and people around there.

So it probably is the need for a change of venue and I think Geragos will make that motion.

O'BRIEN: Can he handled two high -- I mean you're talking, Michael Jackson and Scott Peterson. You really can't pick. I mean unless he were representing O.J., he can't pick more high profile cases to be involved in.

Can a lawyer handle that? I mean he's got to do a lot of the legwork himself, don't you?

COCHRAN: It's going to be a very difficult thing. You've got to give your all to each of these cases and, you know, and certainly, and these clients...

O'BRIEN: Well, that's impossible to do, right?

COCHRAN: Yes, that's right.

And these clients are, you know, both pretty high maintenance, I think. So I think he's going to need a lot of help, a lot of help in these cases. And I think you've got to look at it. And the murder case probably has to take precedence. One man's in custody, one man's not. And it's going to be very difficult.

O'BRIEN: Then you're talking about Michael Jackson, though.

COCHRAN: Right.

O'BRIEN: Big case.

COCHRAN: Then, so, you watch and see. I would not envy his role for the future if he's got to give his all on both cases. And that's going to be very difficult.

O'BRIEN: We have three seconds left.

COCHRAN: Sure.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk about Amber Frey.

COCHRAN: Sure.

O'BRIEN: Which is a topic we could talk about for a half an hour.

COCHRAN: Sure.

O'BRIEN: How critical do you think she is going to be to the prosecution's case? He's making phone calls to her, apparently, from stories that we've heard, constantly while he is attending his wife's memorial service, while he is searching for his missing wife at that point.

COCHRAN: I think she will be very critical. You think, first of all, you know, being a cad doesn't mean you're also a murderer. But the problem is if he did, in fact, tell her, on December 9th, that my wife has gone missing or this will be my first Christmas without my wife and she doesn't turn up missing for two weeks after that, that's going to be very, very critical. And the number of calls that were made in that time frame could be very, very hard and hard to explain for him, it seems to me.

O'BRIEN: All circumstantial, though? Or could it add up to anything?

COCHRAN: It's circumstantial, but, you know, the circumstances could lead inexorably to a thought that maybe he's involved. And, of course, the bodies turn up near where he is. But there are no witnesses who saw what happened.

O'BRIEN: I tell you three seconds and we keep chatting and chatting.

COCHRAN: Yes, we chat and chat, right.

O'BRIEN: We can go on forever.

Johnnie Cochran, always nice to have you.

COCHRAN: My pleasure, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Thanks for stopping by.

COCHRAN: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Your book, once again, is called "A Lawyer's Life."

It's nice to see you.

COCHRAN: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 3, 2003 - 07:36   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: A new videotape is providing insight into the case of the man who died while in the custody of Cincinnati police. The surveillance video shows him dancing and marching around inside and outside of a restaurant shortly before police were called. Police video subsequently shows the man being subdued by officers outside the restaurant.
The death of Nathaniel Jones has sparked anger in Cincinnati.

Joining me this morning to discuss this case is the author of "A Lawyer's Life," Attorney Johnnie Cochran.

Good morning.

Nice to see you.

JOHNNIE COCHRAN, ATTORNEY: Good morning, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Thanks for coming in.

Boy, this is an interesting case. Many people have actually called for the police chief, Thomas Streicher, to step down. He is insisting that the officers actually followed normal procedure.

Weigh in for me on this case. Where do you think it's going to end up?

COCHRAN: Well, I think it's a close question. I think here, if the suspect assaulted the officers, he escalates it to another level. But there had been a history in this city in which the police had previously promised, in accordance with the Justice Department, to de- escalate these kinds of things.

So the question hinges upon whether or not the police had an opportunity to de-escalate. And perhaps they could have called in professionals.

If, however, the suspect, who was under PCP, perhaps, and maybe cocaine, escalated it himself, that would cause a real problem.

So this is, this may not be the best case to go in.

Now, of course...

O'BRIEN: To be a test case.

COCHRAN: To be a test case, right. O'BRIEN: Because there are certainly some people who say on the videotape you can see Nathaniel Jones clocking a police officer in the face. I mean that's essentially assault of a police officer. At the same time, here's a guy who's acting erratically, marching around, at one point had maybe passed out, wasn't really doing anything...

COCHRAN: That's right.

O'BRIEN: Wasn't in the middle of an armed holdup. They could have done nothing, right?

COCHRAN: They could have waited, you see, because ultimately he loses his life. And, you know, if they had perhaps waited, tried to contain him but not come, you know, get too close to him, perhaps. But, you know, police, by nature, you know, are aggressive. They want to solve problems. And, of course, this man was obviously disturbed. Whatever problems he had, you know, along with the fact that he was under the influence of something, made it a real difficult case. This is not the best case solver.

So I think the citizens there have to really take a hard look at this. I mean talk about it. A lot of information out there. They should do that. But it's not one in which I think people need to go off on any kind of a tangent. Let's play it through.

We need the coroner's report, the full coroner's report, and hopefully the police will learn something, though, about de- escalating. That's going to be very important, as well.

O'BRIEN: Because the community certainly up in arms. I think this is maybe the 15th case in which an African-American male was shot and killed or killed at the end of some kind of conflict with police officers.

How do you think community temperament is going to play in all of this? Do you think cooler minds, to some degree, will prevail? Because he's not a great test case. He's not a perfect citizen.

COCHRAN: That's right. See, he's not the citizen you'd like to, you know, be concerned about. He deserved to live, of course. And we don't know all the reasons behind that.

O'BRIEN: Right. Clearly.

COCHRAN: But I think it will be -- I think cooler heads will prevail. I think they've got some things in place now. I think they're going to go back and look at this again. And I hope that for the future they can learn, the officers can do more of the de- escalation aspect and also bring in the mental health response team. That would be very helpful to have them waiting. Because, as you said, where is he going to go?

O'BRIEN: It could have saved the guy's life.

COCHRAN: You know, I mean it would have saved his life, and I think that's going to be important. O'BRIEN: Somebody could always bring him down later.

COCHRAN: That's right, later on, yes.

O'BRIEN: They didn't have to do it at that moment.

All right, let's talk another high profile crime story. Scott Peterson being arraigned today. Mark Geragos, who is apparently, you know, everybody's lawyer, is handling this.

COCHRAN: Yes, he's busy these days.

O'BRIEN: They want to change a venue. This is a case that has been on the cover of "People" magazine sort of every other week practically.

COCHRAN: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: How much does that really matter, to change the venue?

COCHRAN: Well, you know, I think that probably in this case it does matter somewhat, Soledad, because in Modesto it's really going to be tough. I mean everybody knows about the case, clearly. And you've got to get people who can set things aside. I think it may be very difficult because that's the area where Laci Peterson, that beautiful smile, lived, you know, parents and people around there.

So it probably is the need for a change of venue and I think Geragos will make that motion.

O'BRIEN: Can he handled two high -- I mean you're talking, Michael Jackson and Scott Peterson. You really can't pick. I mean unless he were representing O.J., he can't pick more high profile cases to be involved in.

Can a lawyer handle that? I mean he's got to do a lot of the legwork himself, don't you?

COCHRAN: It's going to be a very difficult thing. You've got to give your all to each of these cases and, you know, and certainly, and these clients...

O'BRIEN: Well, that's impossible to do, right?

COCHRAN: Yes, that's right.

And these clients are, you know, both pretty high maintenance, I think. So I think he's going to need a lot of help, a lot of help in these cases. And I think you've got to look at it. And the murder case probably has to take precedence. One man's in custody, one man's not. And it's going to be very difficult.

O'BRIEN: Then you're talking about Michael Jackson, though.

COCHRAN: Right.

O'BRIEN: Big case.

COCHRAN: Then, so, you watch and see. I would not envy his role for the future if he's got to give his all on both cases. And that's going to be very difficult.

O'BRIEN: We have three seconds left.

COCHRAN: Sure.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk about Amber Frey.

COCHRAN: Sure.

O'BRIEN: Which is a topic we could talk about for a half an hour.

COCHRAN: Sure.

O'BRIEN: How critical do you think she is going to be to the prosecution's case? He's making phone calls to her, apparently, from stories that we've heard, constantly while he is attending his wife's memorial service, while he is searching for his missing wife at that point.

COCHRAN: I think she will be very critical. You think, first of all, you know, being a cad doesn't mean you're also a murderer. But the problem is if he did, in fact, tell her, on December 9th, that my wife has gone missing or this will be my first Christmas without my wife and she doesn't turn up missing for two weeks after that, that's going to be very, very critical. And the number of calls that were made in that time frame could be very, very hard and hard to explain for him, it seems to me.

O'BRIEN: All circumstantial, though? Or could it add up to anything?

COCHRAN: It's circumstantial, but, you know, the circumstances could lead inexorably to a thought that maybe he's involved. And, of course, the bodies turn up near where he is. But there are no witnesses who saw what happened.

O'BRIEN: I tell you three seconds and we keep chatting and chatting.

COCHRAN: Yes, we chat and chat, right.

O'BRIEN: We can go on forever.

Johnnie Cochran, always nice to have you.

COCHRAN: My pleasure, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Thanks for stopping by.

COCHRAN: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Your book, once again, is called "A Lawyer's Life."

It's nice to see you.

COCHRAN: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com