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American Morning

Cincinnati Beating Death

Aired December 04, 2003 - 08:14   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the death of an African-American man who died while in the custody of Cincinnati police will be reeled a homicide. But the finding by the coroner does not mean that Nathaniel Jones died from an excess use of force by officers. That's what the coroner said yesterday.
CNN's Brian Cabell joins us live from Cincinnati with the latest -- Brian.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The official cause of death, cardiac dysrhythmia. That's on the death certificate. The official manner of death, homicide. And that's where some of the confusion arises. What the coroner is saying is that Jones' death came about as a result of the struggle with police on Sunday morning. He says that does not mean murder, it does not mean wrongdoing, it does not mean excessive force, necessarily. It is simply a legal definition. He says he simply could not rule this an accident.

Contributing causes, he says, obesity, hypertension and drug use by Mr. Jones.

Now, the death and the tape that we've seen repeatedly over the last four or five days has raised some concerns and anger in the community, as you well know, over the last few days. Last night the human rights commission got together to try to defuse some of these concerns. Five hundred people showed up. They saw the tape from beginning to end. They asked questions of city officials and they also vented frustrations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It could have been avoided, whoever was right or wrong. If Mr. Jones was completely in the wrong, it could have been avoided. I want to get somebody to say that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How could he have had a chance to respond when every time that he started to move his arms, he got hit again?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: A couple other things here. A recall campaign to recall Mayor Luken has started. A lot of people would like Mayor Luken to fire the police chief. He has not done that.

Also, on Sunday afternoon, a march in honor of Nathaniel Jones will be held here in Cincinnati -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Brian Cabell, thanks very much for that.

Joining us now from Cincinnati, an attorney representing the family of Nathaniel Jones.

His name is Kenneth Lawson.

Mr. Lawson, thanks very much for being with us.

What is the number one question you have and the family of Mr. Jones has this morning that you want answered?

KENNETH LAWSON, LAWYER FOR NATHANIEL JONES'S FAMILY: Well, there's probably about four questions that are equally as important, Anderson. And the first one is what happened in that one minute and 37 seconds where the tape goes blank that made Mr. Jones go from being in a jovial mood, not threatening any customers at the restaurant, not threatening any employees at the restaurant, to the person that you see lunging at the police.

They keep saying oh, well, he, you know, the coroner emphasized the drugs, etc. The point of the matter is if that's true, why wasn't he acting in an angry fashion towards the employees? Why was he not threatening customers? Why was he not being belligerent with individuals that were around him earlier and everything...

COOPER: Well, let me jump in right here.

LAWSON: Go ahead.

COOPER: Because when the paramedics were first called, the people in the restaurant said he was acting strangely. We've seen the video, where he was sort of dancing in the restaurant and marching, as some people described it...

LAWSON: That's incorrect.

COOPER: ... like a soldier. And PCP, I mean I just went to a Web site this morning, looked up the effects of PCP and one of them was, "it may cause acute anxiety, feelings of impending doom, paranoia, violent hostility, confusion, delirium."

So you would acknowledge, yes, that he was not, perhaps, rational at this time and could veer from one state to another, yes?

LAWSON: Well, you bring up an important point, but I want to correct you on your information. The first 911 call that came from the employees of White Castle was for medical treatment, because he had passed out and was unconscious in the grass. They never called in and said that he was acting belligerent whatsoever.

It was when the paramedics got there, and by the time the paramedics got there, you see on the tape where he's kind of like dancing around inside the restaurant. They only called and said hey, look, we have somebody who's becoming a nuisance. But they're not saying he's doing anything illegal or is causing anybody any harm. When the police get there, all they know is that somebody, in their opinion, is mentally unstable. They didn't know at the time, Anderson, that he was on PCP, if that's what he was on, or any other type of drug. But they did know this, that whoever they were faced with, they believed, had a mental -- was mentally challenged, who had a mental disability, because they called for the mental health police response team.

Why is that important? Because if a person is not processing information that you and I are processing now in the same manner and fashion, you approach them a different way.

Let me ask you this. What if the man would have been schizophrenic? Should they have handled this way? The point of the drugs really is not relevant. What's relevant is you are dealing with a person who is mentally disabled at the time. Is this a proper way to subdue those people?

COOPER: So at this point, there are a number of investigations under way.

Are you making allegations, are you making charges at this point? Or are you waiting to hear what comes out of these ongoing investigations?

LAWSON: Am I making charges? I mean, yes, I'm making some charges at this point. I'm making the charge that you had six officers standing around this man after they had him handcuffed, stated that they knew he wasn't breathing but that he had a pulse and did nothing to give him CPR, even though they had been trained in CPR.

What person do you know would allow or what public official would sit there and allow a citizen, who they don't know at the time but believe was mentally disabled, would sit there and allow that person to go without air for three minutes and not do anything to try to save that person's life?

COOPER: And...

LAWSON: They stood and watched that man die.

COOPER: And, of course, all of this comes against the backdrop of a long history of problems between the African-American community and the police in Cincinnati.

A lot of questions, a lot of investigations going on this morning.

Kenneth Lawson, we appreciate you joining us.

Thank you.

LAWSON: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired December 4, 2003 - 08:14   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the death of an African-American man who died while in the custody of Cincinnati police will be reeled a homicide. But the finding by the coroner does not mean that Nathaniel Jones died from an excess use of force by officers. That's what the coroner said yesterday.
CNN's Brian Cabell joins us live from Cincinnati with the latest -- Brian.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The official cause of death, cardiac dysrhythmia. That's on the death certificate. The official manner of death, homicide. And that's where some of the confusion arises. What the coroner is saying is that Jones' death came about as a result of the struggle with police on Sunday morning. He says that does not mean murder, it does not mean wrongdoing, it does not mean excessive force, necessarily. It is simply a legal definition. He says he simply could not rule this an accident.

Contributing causes, he says, obesity, hypertension and drug use by Mr. Jones.

Now, the death and the tape that we've seen repeatedly over the last four or five days has raised some concerns and anger in the community, as you well know, over the last few days. Last night the human rights commission got together to try to defuse some of these concerns. Five hundred people showed up. They saw the tape from beginning to end. They asked questions of city officials and they also vented frustrations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It could have been avoided, whoever was right or wrong. If Mr. Jones was completely in the wrong, it could have been avoided. I want to get somebody to say that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How could he have had a chance to respond when every time that he started to move his arms, he got hit again?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: A couple other things here. A recall campaign to recall Mayor Luken has started. A lot of people would like Mayor Luken to fire the police chief. He has not done that.

Also, on Sunday afternoon, a march in honor of Nathaniel Jones will be held here in Cincinnati -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Brian Cabell, thanks very much for that.

Joining us now from Cincinnati, an attorney representing the family of Nathaniel Jones.

His name is Kenneth Lawson.

Mr. Lawson, thanks very much for being with us.

What is the number one question you have and the family of Mr. Jones has this morning that you want answered?

KENNETH LAWSON, LAWYER FOR NATHANIEL JONES'S FAMILY: Well, there's probably about four questions that are equally as important, Anderson. And the first one is what happened in that one minute and 37 seconds where the tape goes blank that made Mr. Jones go from being in a jovial mood, not threatening any customers at the restaurant, not threatening any employees at the restaurant, to the person that you see lunging at the police.

They keep saying oh, well, he, you know, the coroner emphasized the drugs, etc. The point of the matter is if that's true, why wasn't he acting in an angry fashion towards the employees? Why was he not threatening customers? Why was he not being belligerent with individuals that were around him earlier and everything...

COOPER: Well, let me jump in right here.

LAWSON: Go ahead.

COOPER: Because when the paramedics were first called, the people in the restaurant said he was acting strangely. We've seen the video, where he was sort of dancing in the restaurant and marching, as some people described it...

LAWSON: That's incorrect.

COOPER: ... like a soldier. And PCP, I mean I just went to a Web site this morning, looked up the effects of PCP and one of them was, "it may cause acute anxiety, feelings of impending doom, paranoia, violent hostility, confusion, delirium."

So you would acknowledge, yes, that he was not, perhaps, rational at this time and could veer from one state to another, yes?

LAWSON: Well, you bring up an important point, but I want to correct you on your information. The first 911 call that came from the employees of White Castle was for medical treatment, because he had passed out and was unconscious in the grass. They never called in and said that he was acting belligerent whatsoever.

It was when the paramedics got there, and by the time the paramedics got there, you see on the tape where he's kind of like dancing around inside the restaurant. They only called and said hey, look, we have somebody who's becoming a nuisance. But they're not saying he's doing anything illegal or is causing anybody any harm. When the police get there, all they know is that somebody, in their opinion, is mentally unstable. They didn't know at the time, Anderson, that he was on PCP, if that's what he was on, or any other type of drug. But they did know this, that whoever they were faced with, they believed, had a mental -- was mentally challenged, who had a mental disability, because they called for the mental health police response team.

Why is that important? Because if a person is not processing information that you and I are processing now in the same manner and fashion, you approach them a different way.

Let me ask you this. What if the man would have been schizophrenic? Should they have handled this way? The point of the drugs really is not relevant. What's relevant is you are dealing with a person who is mentally disabled at the time. Is this a proper way to subdue those people?

COOPER: So at this point, there are a number of investigations under way.

Are you making allegations, are you making charges at this point? Or are you waiting to hear what comes out of these ongoing investigations?

LAWSON: Am I making charges? I mean, yes, I'm making some charges at this point. I'm making the charge that you had six officers standing around this man after they had him handcuffed, stated that they knew he wasn't breathing but that he had a pulse and did nothing to give him CPR, even though they had been trained in CPR.

What person do you know would allow or what public official would sit there and allow a citizen, who they don't know at the time but believe was mentally disabled, would sit there and allow that person to go without air for three minutes and not do anything to try to save that person's life?

COOPER: And...

LAWSON: They stood and watched that man die.

COOPER: And, of course, all of this comes against the backdrop of a long history of problems between the African-American community and the police in Cincinnati.

A lot of questions, a lot of investigations going on this morning.

Kenneth Lawson, we appreciate you joining us.

Thank you.

LAWSON: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com