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CNN Live Sunday

Legal Briefs

Aired December 07, 2003 - 10:24   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: A black man dies in police custody in Cincinnati one week ago. And now the Justice Department is involved.
And Congressman Bill Janklow of South Dakota takes the stand in his manslaughter trial, giving tearful testimony. We'll take a look at those cases and others in our legal briefs this morning. Trial attorney and CNN contributor Michael Smerconish is with us this morning.

Michael, hello to you.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hey, Heidi.

COLLINS: So is Pamela Hayes, former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney.

Good morning to you as well, Pamela. Thanks for being here, guys.

PAMELA HAYES, FMR. PROSECUTOR: Hi, Heidi.

COLLINS: Let's talk about the story that most people I think have really been watching this week. And that would be Nathaniel Jones.

Let me get your comments first, Michael, about what you think this issue is all about? Do you even think it is an issue?

SMERCONISH: Well, I think it's an issue. I mean, the man lost his life clearly as a result of this interaction with the police. But did he bring it on himself? And I think that anyone who watches that film footage -- and there it goes again -- he lunges and has that first salvo at the cops. And I think that that's what most Americans are focused upon.

He was heavy, he had some cardiac issues. You know, the coroner calls it a homicide, but that's a little bit misleading. I think it's his fault more than it's the police fault.

COLLINS: Pamela, I'd love your comments on this as well. We did hear the coroner talking about this being ruled as a homicide, but that it also did not mean that there was any wrongdoing by police. Your thoughts?

HAYES: I think it's a problem. A homicide ruling comes as a result of it being an unnatural death. I think the police used way too much force. Regardless of what the individual is doing, the clear indication and the clear role of the police is to look and see what type of force that situation calls for.

And in my mind, this was clearly an excess of force. But that's why -- Michael, it's just an excess of force. This guy wasn't doing anything. And, yes, he resisted, he lunged at the guy. But he didn't have a weapon. And it was about six cops beating on him, and that just cannot be proper.

COLLINS: Pamela, if I may interrupt just for a moment, the people at the burger restaurant who -- we saw in some of that videotape of the surveillance cameras of Nathaniel Jones inside the store called for police assistance.

HAYES: Yes.

SMERCONISH: Yes. I mean, actually, the chronology here is that the first phone call comes into the paramedics. And they say there's a guy sleeping. The paramedics arrive and they say not only is he not sleeping, but now he's unruly.

The police arrive. He lunges at the cop. We now know he was high as a kite. PCP and cocaine in his system.

And Pamela, they weren't cracking him on the head. They were using the ends of those batons. It looks brutal, but that's what they've been trained to do.

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: Pamela, go ahead.

HAYES: No, they shouldn't be trained to do that. What they should be trained to do is try to make the situation decrease.

SMERCONISH: How would you do that? You tell me, how would you do that?

HAYES: OK. I would throw a net over him. I would use a taser gun.

They don't even do that to animals. They don't do that to animals. In this case, I think that instead of resisting arrest, where the penalty is something like a misdemeanor, he got the death penalty. We have to do something with our police problem.

COLLINS: OK, guys. Sorry, we've got to stay on focus, because I want to get to one more story that we promised the viewers, and that was about Congressman Bill Janklow of South Dakota taking the stand in a manslaughter trial.

Michael, your thoughts on that? We saw some pretty painful and tearful pleas there.

SMERCONISH: Yes, I'm not buying it. I have to tell you, Heidi, it's a little late for the tears. My tears are shed in this case for the guy who lost his life in this motor vehicle accident.

This congressman, I think he was unfit to be behind the wheel either because you buy into his chemical imbalance defense or because of his driving record, which is a rap sheet a mile long. So I'm not buying it.

COLLINS: All right. And Pamela, your thoughts on this?

HAYES: I think it's quite unfortunate, you know. We all have sympathy for the person who, you know, died as a result of this misbehavior. And it's just a jury question to wait and see whether they're going to believe it.

COLLINS: What do you think should happen with his career?

HAYES: Well, his career is basically over. The question is, what's going to happen, whether he's going to be going to prison. You know, and that's unfortunate.

COLLINS: All right. Guys, we certainly appreciate your expertise this morning, to the both of you. CNN contributor and trial attorney, Michael Smerconish, and former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney, Pamela Hayes, thanks once again.

SMERCONISH: Thanks, Heidi. OK.

HAYES: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 7, 2003 - 10:24   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: A black man dies in police custody in Cincinnati one week ago. And now the Justice Department is involved.
And Congressman Bill Janklow of South Dakota takes the stand in his manslaughter trial, giving tearful testimony. We'll take a look at those cases and others in our legal briefs this morning. Trial attorney and CNN contributor Michael Smerconish is with us this morning.

Michael, hello to you.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hey, Heidi.

COLLINS: So is Pamela Hayes, former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney.

Good morning to you as well, Pamela. Thanks for being here, guys.

PAMELA HAYES, FMR. PROSECUTOR: Hi, Heidi.

COLLINS: Let's talk about the story that most people I think have really been watching this week. And that would be Nathaniel Jones.

Let me get your comments first, Michael, about what you think this issue is all about? Do you even think it is an issue?

SMERCONISH: Well, I think it's an issue. I mean, the man lost his life clearly as a result of this interaction with the police. But did he bring it on himself? And I think that anyone who watches that film footage -- and there it goes again -- he lunges and has that first salvo at the cops. And I think that that's what most Americans are focused upon.

He was heavy, he had some cardiac issues. You know, the coroner calls it a homicide, but that's a little bit misleading. I think it's his fault more than it's the police fault.

COLLINS: Pamela, I'd love your comments on this as well. We did hear the coroner talking about this being ruled as a homicide, but that it also did not mean that there was any wrongdoing by police. Your thoughts?

HAYES: I think it's a problem. A homicide ruling comes as a result of it being an unnatural death. I think the police used way too much force. Regardless of what the individual is doing, the clear indication and the clear role of the police is to look and see what type of force that situation calls for.

And in my mind, this was clearly an excess of force. But that's why -- Michael, it's just an excess of force. This guy wasn't doing anything. And, yes, he resisted, he lunged at the guy. But he didn't have a weapon. And it was about six cops beating on him, and that just cannot be proper.

COLLINS: Pamela, if I may interrupt just for a moment, the people at the burger restaurant who -- we saw in some of that videotape of the surveillance cameras of Nathaniel Jones inside the store called for police assistance.

HAYES: Yes.

SMERCONISH: Yes. I mean, actually, the chronology here is that the first phone call comes into the paramedics. And they say there's a guy sleeping. The paramedics arrive and they say not only is he not sleeping, but now he's unruly.

The police arrive. He lunges at the cop. We now know he was high as a kite. PCP and cocaine in his system.

And Pamela, they weren't cracking him on the head. They were using the ends of those batons. It looks brutal, but that's what they've been trained to do.

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: Pamela, go ahead.

HAYES: No, they shouldn't be trained to do that. What they should be trained to do is try to make the situation decrease.

SMERCONISH: How would you do that? You tell me, how would you do that?

HAYES: OK. I would throw a net over him. I would use a taser gun.

They don't even do that to animals. They don't do that to animals. In this case, I think that instead of resisting arrest, where the penalty is something like a misdemeanor, he got the death penalty. We have to do something with our police problem.

COLLINS: OK, guys. Sorry, we've got to stay on focus, because I want to get to one more story that we promised the viewers, and that was about Congressman Bill Janklow of South Dakota taking the stand in a manslaughter trial.

Michael, your thoughts on that? We saw some pretty painful and tearful pleas there.

SMERCONISH: Yes, I'm not buying it. I have to tell you, Heidi, it's a little late for the tears. My tears are shed in this case for the guy who lost his life in this motor vehicle accident.

This congressman, I think he was unfit to be behind the wheel either because you buy into his chemical imbalance defense or because of his driving record, which is a rap sheet a mile long. So I'm not buying it.

COLLINS: All right. And Pamela, your thoughts on this?

HAYES: I think it's quite unfortunate, you know. We all have sympathy for the person who, you know, died as a result of this misbehavior. And it's just a jury question to wait and see whether they're going to believe it.

COLLINS: What do you think should happen with his career?

HAYES: Well, his career is basically over. The question is, what's going to happen, whether he's going to be going to prison. You know, and that's unfortunate.

COLLINS: All right. Guys, we certainly appreciate your expertise this morning, to the both of you. CNN contributor and trial attorney, Michael Smerconish, and former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney, Pamela Hayes, thanks once again.

SMERCONISH: Thanks, Heidi. OK.

HAYES: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com