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LOU DOBBS TONIGHT
President Bush Welcomes Chinese Premier to White House; Interview With Senator Charles Schumer
Aired December 9, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: President Bush welcomes Chinese Premier Wen to the White House. The president says China is a partner in diplomacy. White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports.
The U.S. trade deficit with China could rise to a record $130 billion this year, as Chinese imports flood into this country. Peter Viles reports.
Illegal aliens are also flooding into the United States. I'll be joined tonight by former Treasury Department official Peter Nunez, who says our immigration policy has been in a meltdown.
In our special report "America Works," our celebration this week of the men and women who make America work. Tonight, we introduce you to Virginia plumber Donald Monroe.
And health officials say the widening flu outbreak is especially harsh. The Centers for Disease Control may turn beyond our borders for help. Medical correspondent Holly Firfer reports.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, December 9. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Suicide bombers today attacked two American bases in Iraq. Almost 60 troops were wounded when a suicide bomber tried to ram a car through the main gate of a military base north of Mosul. Two other soldiers were wounded when another suicide bomber blew himself up outside an Army facility near Baghdad. These continuing attacks against U.S. troops have raised serious questions about U.S. troop strength in Iraq, the size of the U.S. Army and the military's readiness to fight other wars, should it be necessary.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, next year, the U.S. military will bring four battle-weary divisions back from Iraq, replacing them with fresh troops. Some 120,000 troops will return home, requiring rest and retraining. And coming home with them will be about 650 helicopters, 5,700 tanks, about 46,000 wheeled vehicles, and all of these in need of maintenance and repair.
So, for a time, about six months or so, the U.S. military will have only two fresh Army divisions to deploy in the event of a major conflict, if one were to break out, for example, on the Korean Peninsula. Critics on Capitol Hill and elsewhere are arguing that this dramatically demonstrates, the Army is too small to meet its commitment of fighting two major wars at once. But the Pentagon insists, if North Korea were to invade the south, it has plans to meet the challenge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: We look at that all the time. I mean, we're almost in continuous -- continuous process of evaluating our capability to handle future contingencies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, the Pentagon argues that, with an active-duty force of 1.4 million and reserves up to 800,000, it has, altogether, some 2.2 million troops to draw on and that only 250,000 troops are either coming from or going to Iraq.
So, covering other contingencies, argues Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, is more a matter of better managing the military than making it bigger. But Rumsfeld's critics argue that he's in denial, not wanting to admit that the real solution is an expensive expansion of the military. And they warn that the U.S. is taking a calculated risk that it won't be involved in another major war before it has recovered from the current one -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, we are hearing these cries from particularly retired military general staff that this Army, this U.S. military is woefully inadequate to the task that could challenge the United States. Why? What is the reasoning that apparently the Pentagon and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld have not decided that redundancy, too much, would not be a better mistake to make than too little in the way of force level?
MCINTYRE: Well, they make a couple of key arguments.
One is that it would take a long time, a period of some years, to, say, add another two, three or four divisions, in terms of the training, the equipment acquisition, and that, by the time those troops were ready, they might not be really needed. And the main argument is, it's very expensive. The U.S. military budget already takes a large part of the federal budget and adding these troops would be a very, very expensive solution.
They remain committed to the idea of doing more with what they have and getting some of the jobs done by the military done by civilians.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent, thank you.
The Pentagon today said the United States will not be awarding any major reconstruction contracts in Iraq to countries such as France and Germany that failed to support the war against Saddam Hussein. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz did not name France, Germany or other countries that will be excluded from billions of dollars of reconstruction work. But Wolfowitz did say, it is necessary for the protection of U.S. security interests to limit competition for prime contracts in Iraq to coalition partners.
While Iraq is undoubtedly the biggest issue facing the United States overseas now, China is likely to be one of the most important challenges of the future. Today, President Bush welcomed Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao to the White House. The president immediately addressed Chinese concerns about Taiwan. President Bush said he opposes any attempt by Taiwan to move toward independence.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush welcomes China's Premier Wen Jiabao to the White House with all of the fanfare accorded an important U.S. ally. The two leaders reiterated the strength of U.S.-China relations and their shared commitment to block Taiwan from breaking away from mainland China.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We oppose any unilateral decision by either China or Taiwan to change the status quo.
MALVEAUX: It was the Bush administration's strongest statement to date against the movement for an independent Taiwan, welcomed by Wen.
WEN JIABAO, CHINESE PREMIER (through translator): Such separatist activities are what the Chinese side can absolutely not accept entirely.
MALVEAUX: Recently, Taiwan's president, Chen Shui-bian, announced a March referendum calling for China to withdrawal its ballistic missiles aimed at the island and to renounce the use of far. It was viewed by China as a provocative move and has worried the U.S. that Taiwan may be preparing for a showdown with China.
RICHARD BUSH, THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Over the last few weeks, it has urged Taiwan in more explicit terms to sort of cool it.
MALVEAUX: The complex U.S. policy towards Taiwan presents Mr. Bush with a difficult balancing act. The U.S. is bound by law under its one-China policy to defend Taiwan if China invades. Bush raised eyebrows early on by promising to defend Taiwan. And there is strong support among conservatives for that.
But Mr. Bush wants most of all to head off a political crisis in Asia. Some view the U.S.' stand on Taiwan as inconsistent with its policy in promoting other democracies around the world.
BUSH: I don't think it's a reward. I think it does reflect the importance that China plays in U.S. foreign policy now.
MALVEAUX: China plays several important roles for the U.S. now, including facilitating talks with North Korea to disarm and assisting in the U.S.' war on terror.
MALVEAUX: Now, Bush aides say it is not about appeasing China, but rather making sure that the conditions in Asia are stable. However, a big part of that is making sure that North Korea is nuclear-free. And China certainly has the influence to make that happen -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne Malveaux, at the White House, thank you.
The Chinese premier today acknowledged that the growing U.S. trade deficit with China is a serious issue. That deficit could rise to $130 billion this year. And by almost any measure, the economic relationship between the United States and China is hugely unbalanced.
Peter Viles reports.
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Why is this man smiling? Because he's paying a visit to one of his best customers, the kind of customer who loves to spend money and also loves to borrow it. Of course, Premier Wen Jiabao says China does not want a trade war with the United States. What kind of businessman would fight with his best customer?
THEA LEE, AFL-CIO: This is really a partnership between U.S. multinational corporations and the Chinese government and some Chinese business elites. They're all doing fine. They're laughing all the way to the bank. The profits are great for U.S. companies that can produce in China, pay dirt-low wages, and bring the goods back and sell them to American consumers.
VILES: American multinationals are investing heavily in China, financing an economic revolution. In a generation, China has built the world's sixth largest economy.
JOHN TKACIK, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Not only are there basic labor-intensive manufacturing bases being built up. They're now moving into capital-intensive and advanced technology manufacturing base that doesn't require cheap labor. And they're getting that from abroad, a lot of it from the United States. And we're paying for it.
VILES: We're paying twice, really, with interest. China runs a trade surplus with United States of $2 billion a week and loans a lot of the money right back to Washington to finance our huge budget deficits. China's trade surplus with the U.S. will top $400 billion over the four years ending this month. And China's Central Bank holds at least $122 billion in U.S. treasuries.
Multinationals such as General Electric see China as a market for jet engines and power systems. But the truth is, China is not emerging as a consumer market for U.S. exports. Last year, the U.S. sold China $289 million worth of autos and auto parts, but turned around and bought six times that much in autos and auto parts from China.
VILES: A footnote: American investors were scrambling today to buy into that Chinese economic miracle. Shares of CTrip.com -- yes, that is a Chinese dot-com -- almost doubled in their first day of trading here in New York -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, after looking at the numbers you've just reported, that looks like that might be a pretty good investment.
VILES: Even bigger IPO to come later this week, China Life, more than $2 billion to be raised.
Peter Viles, thank you.
Well, as President Bush and Premier Wen meet in Washington, the speaker of the Texas House of Representatives was facing tough questions of his own about Chinese imports. At issue is the speaker's decision to decorate the Texas Statehouse floor with a giant artificial Christmas tree made in China. Texas tree growers, not surprisingly, are more than just a little upset.
But House Speaker Tom Craddick is showing no signs of backing down on the China import. Incidentally, more than three out of every four artificial Christmas trees sold in this country are -- that's right -- made in China. So are nearly 75 percent of all Christmas tree ornaments, lights, and wreaths.
Coming up next: a desperate shortage of flu vaccines, and the worst is yet to come. Health officials are forced to look overseas now for help. Medical correspondent Holly Firfer will be here with the report.
And some staggering population projections today from the United Nations, projections that are staggeringly low. Bill Tucker will report on why the U.N. is low-balling population growth.
And "America Works." Tonight, we introduce you to a plumber who takes pride in living the American dream, owning his own company and helping others in the process. Lisa Sylvester will have his story.
DOBBS: Tonight, public health officials say the worst flu outbreak in years is spreading. And with flu shots running out all around the country, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention today said, it is considering buying more vaccine from overseas.
Medical correspondent Holly Firfer joins us and has the latest for us -- Holly.
HOLLY FIRFER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the CDC says the flu season has not yet hit its peak. And they're concerned that those who need the vaccine are able to get it. With 83 million doses of vaccine manufactured this year, the CDC says more people have gotten their shots than ever before. Yet, many doctors offices across the country have none left to give. This has prompted the CDC to conduct a nationwide survey to find the remaining vaccines for redistribution. Now, they are also looking to a European manufacturer for possible help.
The question remains, why is there a shortage of vaccine? Well, the CDC says it's a matter of economics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. JULIE GERBERDING, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL: For the last five years, we have thrown a lot of flu vaccine away. For example, last year, the manufacturer made 95 million doses of vaccine. We threw away 12 million doses. And that's how they arrived at the decision basically to make 83 million doses this year, because that was a pretty high watermark. And it made sense that manufacture would be likely to sell that many doses.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FIRFER: And that adds up. At $10 a shot, we're talking throwing $120 million away. And since only 70 to 75 million people get flu shots in an average year, manufacturers thought they had their bases covered.
They did not anticipate that this year's flu season would be more severe. Another snag this year, Lou, the Fujian strain showed up later than expected, when vaccine manufacturing was already under way. Now, had companies stopped to add the new strain, it would have taken too long to culture and there would not have been any flu vaccine ready for the beginning of the season, which did start earlier this year anyway -- Lou.
DOBBS: Holly, as you say, it's a matter of economics. But when those people start worrying about that $120 million, they might as well consider the fact that the flu in this country alone costs us $70 billion a year.
Holly, we're hearing reports that some children are also coming down with severe bacterial infections, in addition to the flu, some that are resistant to antibiotics, such as the staph strains.
FIRFER: Yes, Lou, often a bacterial infection will follow a bout of the flu, for instance, pneumonia or even something as simple as an ear infection, which is why it's important for parents to get their kids to the doctor if they have the flu.
And there are four flu treatments available out there to help. Now, bacterial infections resistant to antibiotics are becoming more common, as we overprescribe antibiotics, which is why doctors have been so concerned about this for some time now -- Lou.
DOBBS: Holly, thank you very much -- Holly Firfer, our medical correspondent, reporting. The mayor of Boston will defy the Food and Drug Administration and will import prescription drugs from Canada for municipal workers. Prescription medications can be up to 50 percent cheaper in Canada than this country. Mayor Thomas Menino is scheduled to meet FDA Commissioner Mark McClellan next month to talk about his decision. Boston would be following Springfield, Massachusetts, as the second city in this country to take such action.
Our growing population of older citizens will be making prescription drug prices one of the central political issues in this country, likely for decades to come. A new United Nations report projects that, as this country's population grows, the median age of Americans will also rise significantly. The United Nations also projects, the world's population will rise by only three billion people over the next 300 years.
Now, that is a controversial projection and a figure that many experts we've talked with say is simply a gross underestimate.
Bill Tucker reports.
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nine billion people on the planet by 2300, pretty amazing when you consider there are six billion of us here already.
Perhaps for that reason, the United Nations' latest study on population has something of a science-fiction feel about it, as it seeks to look 300 years into the future, though it is based on the fact that women now, on average, are having fewer babies than they did in just the 1950s.
JOSEPH CHAMIE, DIRECTOR OF POPULATION DIVISION, UNITED NATIONS: We have good news in the population area. We started the century with fertility rates for the world at six. We're down to about half that level. We started in 1900 life expectancy and birth was 30 years. Now it's in excess of 60 years. We've made progress.
TUCKER: Some of the other changes the U.N. says we're likely to see over the next 300 years include further declines in mortality rates and much greater longevity rates, up to 104 and 108 years of age in Japan.
More than 30 percent of the population will be older than 60 and the medium age will be 50. The bad news is, we'll probably be working until after we're 80. But hold on. During the past 100 years, the global population more than doubled, from 1.6 billion to just over six billion. And that's not a scenario.
PETER KOSTMAYER, PRESIDENT, POPULATION CONNECTION: Forget about the scenarios. Take a look at what's happening. And what's happening, without any projections or scare tactics, is, the world is growing by another New York City every six weeks, that by this year, 2300, which is a long way off, the population of this country will be two billion. The world will be 134 trillion, just if things keep happening as they are.
TUCKER: Not everywhere is experiencing a population boom. In Italy, for example, the population is actually declining.
TUCKER: So much so that the Italian government is now offering roughly the equivalent of $1,200 to couples for every child they have after their first. Lou, that's about enough to pay for food, diapers and cloths for, what, roughly the first three months.
DOBBS: As I recall dimly.
DOBBS: Bill, that's remarkable. And the projections on U.S. population growth, that...
TUCKER: They're staggering.
DOBBS: Staggeringly low. I appreciate it, Bill Tucker.
Coming up next: fighting back against China's trade deficit. Senator Charles Schumer says China's currency manipulation is costing millions of Americans jobs. Senator Schumer joins us to tell us what he's doing to end all of that.
And "Broken Borders." Peter Nunez is the former assistant secretary of treasury for enforcement. He says, legal immigration leads to more illegal aliens in this country. He joins us to talk about that and this country's lack of a national immigration policy.
DOBBS: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao will be visiting the United States over the course of several days. And he has agreed to currency talks with the Bush administration next month. By keeping Chinese currency artificially weak, Chinese goods, of course, cheaply flood the U.S. market.
I'm joined now by a lawmaker who has introduced legislation designed to end China's currency manipulation, Senator Charles Schumer.
Good to have you here.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Hey, great to be here, Lou.
DOBBS: Senator, how will your legislation influence the Chinese?
SCHUMER: Well, it's very simple.
Our legislation says that countries, large countries, that don't let their currency float shall have a tariff tacked on to make up for the devaluation of the currency. It's estimated that the Chinese currency is lower than it ought to be by 40 percent to 15 percent. So we picked the middle number, 27.5 percent.
And it -- I'd much rather the Chinese float their currency. I'd much rather let the Chinese let currency flow back and forth over their borders, like any large, grown-up country should do.
DOBBS: This is a large, grown-up and immensely powerful, potentially, country. The idea that we would be dictating to the Chinese, or they to us, about currency is problematic at best. Do you think this administration is ready to follow such legislation, to support it, and to enforce it?
SCHUMER: Well, let's look at what happened today. We get virtually nothing from the Chinese but verbiage, as so many thousands of jobs are lost.
The Chinese have certain advantages, in any case, that no currency change is going to matter. And this is not going to solve all of those problem. But I have manufacturers in my state -- and it's true around the country -- who say, that 40 percent advantage is what kills me. I'll compete with lower costs of Chinese labor, but not with a 40 percent extra tacked on that makes it unfair.
So we have do something. Now, if the administration has a better plan, fine. But they have done nothing.
DOBBS: Talking here with Commerce Secretary Don Evans, he said, we want a level playing field. We are going to be addressing these issues.
But you and I, and I think nearly everyone watching and listening to us right now, understands, U.S. multinationals are the ones investing capital in China and other countries around the world, not simply China.
SCHUMER: You bet.
DOBBS: They are the ones who have chosen to outsource high-value jobs in the United States and put them in other countries.
SCHUMER: Yes, you bet.
DOBBS: China, India.
What in the world is the Democratic Party going to -- since you are a Democrat, I will ask you this.
DOBBS: What is the Democratic Party going to do, the Republican Party going to do? Because neither party is dealing with this issue.
SCHUMER: Right. Exactly.
I think this is the hidden issue of the 2004 election. The areas where it has particular resonance are the middle-West, all those swing states, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and the Southeast, where all those Senate seats are up. And it's huge in those areas.
And the American worker, the American people, are looking for solutions. Yes, it's the big multinationals that can go to China. We don't want to say, you can't go to China. We do want to say, when you go to China, you shouldn't get an extra 40 percent or 30 percent advantage tacked on because there are currencies unfairly manipulated.
DOBBS: Will you be making your determination about whom you support for the Democratic presidential nomination based, in part, on their views on trade?
SCHUMER: In one of these issues, yes.
And I've been a free trader. I lost the AFL-CIO endorsement when I was a congressman because of my positions. But this is a free trade position, to say that currencies should float. Part of the tenet of free trade is, you let goods flow freely back and forth, but the currency floats, too.
SCHUMER: And so it avoids too great an imbalance. We're not doing that. And it's just utterly amazing to me. What happened today is what always happens. We trade economics for diplomacy, today, in the case of Taiwan.
We're not getting anything done to keep our economy vigorous and strong, whether it be manufacturing, services or anything else. And two years from now, Lou, we're going to regret this. Right now, no one's paying too much attention. But we are going to regret it.
DOBBS: Well, there are a few folks paying attention.
SCHUMER: Yes. True.
SCHUMER: You are one of them, thank God.
DOBBS: And you, sir.
We appreciate it, Senator Schumer. Good to see you.
SCHUMER: Thank you. Appreciate it.
DOBBS: Senator Charles Schumer.
Coming up next: "Exporting America" -- tonight, the names of more American companies that are exporting jobs to cheap overseas labor markets.
And Stephen Roach, chief global economist, Morgan Stanley, joins us to tell us why he says the United States should be blaming itself for this alarming trend of outsourcing, rather than blaming India, China, the Philippines, and other countries around the world.
Stay with us.
DOBBS: Each night here, we're reporting to you the list of U.S. companies exporting American jobs overseas or choosing to employ cheap foreign labor, instead of employing U.S. workers.
We're asking for your help in identifying those companies that are exporting America. There are, as we have told you, simply no records. No one is keeping track of the jobs lost in this country to outsourcing.
We've already received thousands and thousands of e-mails from you. And, of course, we are working diligently to confirm that each company that we are notified of is indeed exporting these jobs.
Tonight, we're adding to the list the companies confirmed today to be exporting America. Here they are. And they are in yellow letters: American Standard, Delta Airlines, ExxonMobil, Intuit, Kaiser Permanente, Levi Strauss, Oracle, Qwest Communications, Raytheon Aircraft, Sprint, Washington Mutual.
Keep sending us those names of companies you know to be exporting jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. As we build up this list, we will be, obviously, continuing to public them here, as well as eventually on the shows's Web site. Send us your notifications to LOUDOBBS@CNN.com. We'll continue to report them each night.
My next guest warns that so-called jobless recoveries, like the one the U.S. economy is experiencing right now, could be the norm for the foreseeable future. In fact, he attributes joblessness in manufacturing to the flood of American jobs to China.
Stephen Roach is the chief global economist at Morgan Stanley. He warns, however, that, until the United States comes to grips with its own fundamental problems, the option of cheaper Chinese trade is in America's best interests. Stephen Roach joins us tonight from Morgan Stanley's offices in Manhattan.
Good to have you here, Steve.
STEPHEN ROACH, CHIEF GLOBAL ECONOMIST, MORGAN STANLEY: Good evening, Lou.
DOBBS: Steve, the idea that trade right now is in our best interest under any circumstance with a half-trillion dollar current account deficit requires some elaboration. Help me out.
ROACH: Well, Lou, it's not in our best interest to run massive imbalances with the world. But you have to figure out where they come from. They don't come out of thin air.
America has no savings. Our national savings rate, adjusted for depreciation, is less than 1 percent of our GDP. To grow, we have to import surplus savings from abroad and run massive balance of payments and trade deficits to attract and acquire that foreign savings. So, China is given to us as a deficit because of the irresponsible fiscal policies in Washington which have pushed our savings rate down.
DOBBS: So you're saying that the return to deficits is putting further pressure on the economic system. We're only adding to it by bringing on also a record half-trillion-dollar current account deficit.
ROACH: I'm saying that, if you close down trade with China today, as Senator Schumer just urged to do on your program, we'd have a trade deficit with somebody else. It could be Korea. It could be Japan. It could be Canada. It could be Mexico. But we're not going to stop this problem.
DOBBS: Well, let me say, Senator Schumer didn't suggest shutting down trade with China. I think he suggested, Stephen, that we begin to reach some balance. And he looked at floating the yuan as one way in which to do it.
Steve, let me ask you this. You say that we would have a deficit no matter what with some other country. We also have plenty of deficits to go around. Our trade deficit is immense with the European Union. Our trade deficit is immense with both Canada and Mexico and Japan. So, yes, that's -- China is certainly only part of a very large problem. But why can we not address the issue of trade balance? Why can we not respond as an economy to these deficits and boost exports?
ROACH: Well, Lou, I think, until we get our own house in order, until we save more as a nation, until individuals save more and the government saves more, we're going to find ourselves forever in need of foreign capital, foreign savings and running trade deficits to attract that capital.
So I think we're deluding ourselves to think we can just address the trade issue in isolation from our bigger economic problems. And what worries me is that we are focusing all of our attention on a nation like China, turning China into a scapegoat for problems that we refuse to address at home.
DOBBS: Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. And in no way would I imply that China should be a scapegoat. We are, after all, as Americans, free Americans, making some horrible decisions. And our leaders are making even worse decisions. But we still have to deal with the issues. As they say in television, people have to deal with more than one element at a time simultaneously.
DOBBS: We have a record trade deficit, a record budget deficit. We are outsourcing jobs, not to China, but to India, to the Philippines and around the world. We are exporting intellectual capital. We are exporting know-how, as well as physical plant and capital. What in the world is the culmination over the course of several years of continuing this idiocy?
ROACH: Well, a lot of this simply reflects whether or not America is committed to globalization. I think it's pretty extraordinary to think that a lot of this, whether it's the construction of outsourcing platforms in China and India through American foreign direct investment or the advent of the Internet, which connects us to these outsourcing platforms as never before, which is also made in America, this is very much of our own making.
So we, in effect, are now living in an era of globalization that has been made in America, and now we don't like it. So what are we to do as a nation, close down our borders and turn our backs on globalization?
DOBBS: No, Stephen. What I'm asking you is, we know the history. We know how we got here. But now what I'm asking you very specifically is, how long do you think that we can continue to build on this debt? We are now the world's largest debtor nation. How long can this go without solution?
ROACH: These things always go on for longer than we would like or longer than we would think. And I'm worried that we're coming close to that point, where this current account deficit does cause an even more precipitous decline in the dollar and a backup in U.S. interest rates as a result, which would be very disruptive for our financial markets and our economy.
What do we do here? We have to save more as a nation by getting our fiscal house in order. And then we have to focus on new sources of job creation. That's what has always made America great. If we try to defend and protect old sources, we lose. We win if we look to the new.
DOBBS: The problem I have with that, Stephen -- and I respect you immensely as an economist -- this is, as you say, not -- this is something new. Never before have we seen the outsourcing, the exportation of high-value jobs at the rate that we have seen it over the course of the past three years.
This doesn't fit into anyone's model of comparative advantage in international trade. These are unanticipated trend and developments. Don't you agree?
ROACH: Lou, I completely agree.
And I commend you for really elevating this issue to national attention. And the speed by which globalization is now moving, because of these huge outsourcing platforms in goods and now in our -- what we used to call nontradable services, together with the Internet, has changed the dynamic by which we must now respond to these global conditions, as never before. And so -- and it's incumbent upon us to really figure out a way out. There is no silver bullet. I can assure you of that.
DOBBS: Well, like you, we all wish there were, but that's one of the reasons that we have taken on this issue for a national dialogue. And we thank you for participating in it. We hope you will continue to do so, Stephen Roach.
ROACH: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure. DOBBS: Turning now to our question, our poll tonight on the United States' relationship with China: Do you consider China to be a diplomatic partner, a strategic competitor, a military threat, or all of the above? Cast your vote at CNN.com/LOU. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Now a programming note: Please join us Thursday evening for my exclusive interview with Premier Wen Jiabao of China in his first ever appearance on American television. Of course, we will be talking about the trade relationship between the United States and China, the issue of Taiwan, the global war on terror, and a great deal more. Please join us Thursday evening. We hope you'll be with us.
There are now, turning to another subject, men and women in this country who are working for us. We're going to highlight them here, starting tonight. We want to salute tonight State Representative Andrew Meisner of Michigan. He recently introduced legislation that would require that state to divest itself from companies that incorporate offshore to avoid paying taxes.
His legislation would also ban state contracts with those companies. Michigan currently has an $11 million contract with Accenture, a technology consulting firm based, national known, of course, based in Bermuda. Representative Meisner says: "We need to send a strong message to companies that take cover in foreign tax havens. If you want the state's business and investment, you should pay your fair share."
We want you to nominate as well, please, men and women in your community who are working for all of us to keep jobs here in this country and to -- let's say it straight out -- to take care of America. E-mail us at LOUDOBBS@CNN.com.
Coming up next: Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, he built his campaign on the promise of change, a promise, just a few weeks after taking office, that has already been broken. Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
DOBBS: There is an interesting contest now under way in California. It is political candidate Schwarzenegger vs. Governor Schwarzenegger. The action-star-turned-governor promised tough spending cuts, a balanced budget, and a statehouse above reproach. But in less than a month in office, Arnold Schwarzenegger is finding state politics somewhat more daunting than movie villains.
Casey Wian reports.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Among Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's pledges for his first 100 days in office was fixing the state's budget mess. But he missed a deadline for lawmakers to accept his $15 billion spending cap and bond proposal in time for the March ballot. The failure has resulted in a state debt rating downgrade and the cancellation of a school and infrastructure bond offering.
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR-ELECT: It was not really a defeat. It was -- basically, we're in the middle of negotiations right now. And I think that there is a way of reaching a compromise. And if there is a defeat, then it is a defeat for the people of California.
WIAN: Still, it's an embarrassment for Schwarzenegger, because he would likely be forced to support an earlier bond deal crafted by recalled Governor Gray Davis that the new governor called illegal.
Schwarzenegger's promise to open up California's notorious backroom politics also won't happen on schedule. There's not even a proposal yet. Even promises Schwarzenegger has kept fall short. Take his repeal of California's vehicle license fee increase. He's failed to compensate cities and counties for the revenue loss, as promised. Local governments face a quarter-billion shortfall this month.
GLORIA KAPPE, MAYOR OF CERRITOS, CALIFORNIA: It's a little scary. But if it does happen that all of these cuts are made and we don't get the money back, we'll have to look at some serious belt- tightening.
WIAN: Then there's Schwarzenegger's repeal of a law granting illegal aliens driver's licenses. He is suggesting a compromise next year to address security concerns. But it would still allow illegal aliens to be legal drivers.
The governor has also canceled his self-investigation of claims he groped 16 women. And he's been sued for libel by one of his alleged gropees.
WIAN: Schwarzenegger has often confounded critics, both in his political and entertainment careers. So his first 100 days as governor still could have a Hollywood ending.
Californians hope it's more like "The Terminator" than "The Titanic," Lou.
DOBBS: I supposed that we should also point out, it took California quite a while to get in the mess in which it finds itself. But that's quite a litany of problems for Governor Schwarzenegger.
WIAN: Absolutely. Voters so far in California seem to be giving him the benefit of the doubt, because he is only 23 days into his term. But once these bills start coming due, I think the -- he's going to have to perform pretty quickly.
DOBBS: As he promised he would.
Casey Wian, reporting from Los Angeles -- thank you, Casey.
In "Broken Borders' tonight, my next guest is convinced that our immigration policy has been in a meltdown since 1965, that border enforcement has never really been practiced, and that sanctions against employers who hire illegal aliens in this country are so weak that they have never worked.
Joining me now from San Diego is the former assistant secretary of treasury for enforcement, Peter Nunez.
Good to have you with us.
PETER NUNEZ, FORMER ASST. SECRETARY TREASURY FOR ENFORCEMENT: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: I'm going to start here because I think it's fundamental.
Neither the Republicans, nor the Democrats, have apparently the political courage to talk about national immigration policy. Why is it, in your judgment, Peter?
NUNEZ: Well, they have both been captured by special interests now for at least the last 25 years, the Democrats by the ethnic and immigrant communities, the Republicans, to some degree, by the business community, who want cheap labor.
And so they -- these special interests have been able to stymie any attempt to deal with immigration issues on a forthright basis now since 1965, really.
DOBBS: And the failure to create a national immigration policy, we have basically simply opened our borders, have we not? The estimates of illegal aliens in this country now range anywhere from eight to 12 million people. There's no interior enforcement. And, obviously, there is not sufficient enforcement, or even the will to enforce our laws at the border. Can that be changed?
NUNEZ: Certainly, it can be changed.
And I think I just would point out the Border Patrol has been trying valiantly for many years to do the best they can. But they have been overwhelmed and outmanned. And we did make -- we doubled the size of the Border Patrol during the '90s, but that clearly wasn't enough. It helped places like San Diego and El Paso, but it just moved illegal immigration to other spots on the border that are still pretty much wide open.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this. What do you think when illegal aliens demonstrate, as they did recently in Southern California, after Governor Schwarzenegger repealed the Senate bill giving them the rights to driver's licenses, saying they're part of the community; they're an important part; they're going to not only demand driver's licenses, but health care and other rights of citizenship?
What in the world is go on out there?
NUNEZ: Well, what troubles me is that what the people of the state, the people of this country have always wanted is an effective immigration policy. They do not want illegal immigration in any way. They don't want to harbor illegal aliens. They don't want to give them any benefits.
But the will of the people has been over -- has been ignored by our congressmen, who have basically sold out to these special interests. Now, there are some, obviously, Tom Tancredo and those that are members of the Immigration Reform Caucus. But they have been denied the opportunity to move forward with some things that could solve part of the problem, at least.
DOBBS: Peter Nunez, we thank you for being here. Again, I hope you will be with us as we continue to discuss this important issue over the weeks and months ahead. Peter Nunez, thank you very much for being here.
NUNEZ: Thank you. Happy to be here.
DOBBS: Coming up next, we'll have your thoughts on our continuing series of special reports, "Exporting America," and the devastating effect on American workers left behind looking for work -- that a great deal more still to come.
Stay with us.
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts.
From Washington, D.C.: "I became a viewer of your show a few months ago and have been riveted by your reports about overpopulation, job exportation, broken borders, and other challenges facing our nation and world. The quality I appreciate the most in your show is that you and your staff work to spotlight issues with independence and integrity" -- Carolyn Calkins.
From Queens, New York: "From my perspective, your region on the current state of joblessness in America is the best. You are highlighting a topic that no one else has had the courage to talk about. I've been unemployed for over a year now. And, at the age of 61, it is very difficult to even get your resume looked at, especially when you're over the hill like me."
Marie, you are not over the hill. And don't forget it.
From Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: "I'm just appalled by your request to the viewers to give names of companies that are offshoring jobs. Think about all the countries that have agreed to remove their barriers to help the cause of free trade. There are a lot of people in those countries who lost their jobs only because American companies could sell products and services at a cheaper price than local companies. This is free trade. There is nothing bad about this. It is just good business policy" -- that from Karthik.
From Dallas, Texas: "Your segments on broken borders and exporting America deal directly with what is wrong with the American economy. Our country continues to allow illegal workers who are willing to work for wages based on Third World expectations. And large corporations refuse to hire white-collar workers, due to the salary savings they find overseas. What has become of the American dream? I fear it won't be long before we are reduced to Third World expectations" -- Joe Kysiak.
We love hearing from you. E-mail us your thoughts at LOUDOBBS@CNN.com.
Turning now to the market, quickly, the U.S. dollar today had a record low against the euro again for an eighth straight day. U.S. stocks also lower, the Dow down almost 42 points, the Nasdaq off 40, almost 41 points, the S&P down nine points.
However, tonight, there are signs that the economy is improving. And Christine Romans is here with that story -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, some bullish outlooks for advertising spending. As company profits improve, so do their ad budgets. And experts forecast overall advertising sales growth of 5 to 8 percent next year. Industry watcher Jack Myers sits at 5.8 percent and expects TV ad sales up slightly less.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACK MYERS, JACK MYERS REPORT: Advertising has in fact been an advance indicator for the general economy. So, strength in the ad economy today going into 2004 suggests continued vitality for the general economy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: Myers said every sector of the ad economy looks strong into next year. And even if you don't count the billions expected to be spent on Olympics and political advertising, it still looks bullish, Lou.
DOBBS: But we're still hearing a lot about job cuts.
ROMANS: Yes, more details today of thousands more job cuts.
Let's run them down for you. We have got SBC Communications cutting up 4,000 jobs by the end of the year, up to 4,000. That's 2.5 percent of its work force. Verizon will pay billions for its severance packages; 10 percent of its work force, Lou, 22,000 people, are taking early retirement. And Washington Mutual said it cut 4,500 full-time mortgage positions from August to November. It will ax another 2,000 mortgage jobs in the first quarter, and then another 900 in other parts of the bank also in the first quarter.
DOBBS: We were all hoping that that was behind us.
ROMANS: Yes, hopefully.
DOBBS: All right, Christine Romans, thank you very much.
ROMANS: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Coming up next: "American Works," our series this week honoring hard-working men and women in this country who keep America working. Tonight, we introduce you to a plumber who's worked for years helping others find happiness in the American dream. Lisa Sylvester will have the story.
Stay with us.
DOBBS: Now the results of tonight's poll. The question resulted in this. Four percent of you say China is a diplomatic partner; 27 percent, a strategic competitor; 18 percent, a military threat. And 50 percent say all of the above.
Well, this week, we are celebrating the men and women whose work keeps this country running. Tonight, in our special report, "America Works," we introduce you to a Virginia plumber. He's on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And he loves every minute of it.
Lisa Sylvester has his story.
DONALD MONROE, PLUMBER: Gorgeous, come on, baby, let's get up. James.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Donald Monroe's first job is getting his kids ready for school. He's very involved in the lives of his 8-year-old daughter, Allison (ph), and 12-year-old son, James, keeping tabs on their education and providing them with a good role model.
MONROE: I think every kid should have a mom and a dad, if not -- I think it's great to have a mom and dad in the house. I didn't have that growing up. And I told my kids, you have a mom and dad that really love you.
SYLVESTER: For Monroe, who is a Republican, family values and a strong work ethic are important. He works hard as a plumber, or, as he prefers to be called, a service technician. He's on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
MONROE: For the past 18 months, I've been sleeping in the guest room, because my wife knows I may have to go on a call.
I'm Donald with Monroe's Plumbing. You called?
SYLVESTER: He has been in the plumbing business for 18 years, but he's been working a lot longer. As the oldest of nine children raised in a single-parent home in Washington, D.C., his first job was delivering newspapers when he was 12 years old. He's not afraid to get his hands a little dirty or shirt drenched.
MONROE: I know, in the plumbing business, you can make a little money. But you have to provide the service.
SYLVESTER: The median annual salary for someone in the plumbing business is $42,000. With experience, the salary is a lot higher. But money is not the driving factor for Monroe. The secret, he says, to being successful and happy is remembering why you do what you do for a living. In his case, it's to help people.
MONROE: I enjoy it. I enjoy getting out, talking to the clients, letting them know what we stand for, what we believe in.
SYLVESTER: Years of paying his dues have given Monroe what he's always wanted: his own shop and his name on his van.
SYLVESTER: Donald Monroe wants his children to go to college and to have a job where they don't have to work with their hands. But his daughter may follow in his footsteps. When he's on a job on the weekend, she's usually right beside her dad, tailing along -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, Lisa, she's got a pretty good model.
SYLVESTER: Yes, she does have a great role model. Donald was a great guy. It was a pleasure working with him -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thanks. Great story, and, as you say, a great guy -- Lisa Sylvester.
Tonight's thought is on the value of work: "I believe in the dignity of labor, whether with head or hand, that the world owes no man a living, but that it owes every man an opportunity to make a living" -- that from a pretty well-known capitalist by the name of John D. Rockefeller.
That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us.
Thursday, Chinese Premier Wen will be joining us in his first ever American television interview. We hope you will please join us for that.
Until then, for all of us here, good night from New York.
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Interview With Senator Charles Schumer>