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Interview With Aaron Belkin, Jeff Cleghorn
Aired December 11, 2003 - 14:48 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the year before don't ask don't tell was enacted, one high-ranks officer drew national attention to homosexuality in the military. She was Colonel Marguerite Cammermeyer, and in 1992 she was the highest ranking officer to come out of the closet. She was kicked out of the Washington National Guard at that time but later reinstated.
Well since then nearly 10,000 other members of the military have been kicked out for revealing their homosexuality. So does don't ask, don't tell work? Joining me to discuss that are Dr. Aaron Belkin. He's in San Francisco. He's with the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military.
And here in Atlanta, retired Army Major Jeff Cleghorn who is here because he's knows firsthand about being gay and being in the military. He's also an attorney and director of the Military Education Initiative.
Glad to have both of you here. Jeff, let's start with you. Twelve years you were in the military, a family tradition. Why did you join?
MAJ. JEFF CLEGHORN, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well I joined the military out of a small town in Georgia, the reason why most young men and women join. A sense of patriotism, a sense of adventure, wanting to obtain the educational benefits that are available through military service to go to college.
PHILLIPS: Now you told me you knew something was different, but you weren't quite sure that you were gay. So you got into the military. How did you come to grips with this? How did you realize, OK, I'm gay and I have to deal with this?
CLEGHORN: Well I think ever person's journey into self- acceptance is a unique one. Certainly mine was. It takes a period of time. It's not a button or switch that people can push and very comfortably acknowledge publicly to family and close friends that are gay.
So over a period of time, meeting people and thinking...
PHILLIPS: And you met a lot of gay soldiers , too, right?
CLEGHORN: Instead I did, gay soldiers, and other people throughout the world, as the Army took me around the world, who were gay. I became to realize there was nothing unusual about me being gay and certainly nothing wrong with being gay. So I became comfortable with who I am as a human being.
PHILLIPS: So why does the don't ask, don't tell work?
CLEGHORN: Well I think the reason don't ask, don't tell does not work is evidenced by the story in "The New York Times." We have three retired flag officers, extraordinary men of great achievement and talent...
PHILLIPS: You know them well.
CLEGHORN: ... who I know and are very accomplished in their civilian lives as well. And under don't ask, don't tell these people would be investigated and thrown out of the military. And that's just absurd.
PHILLIPS: So, Dr. Belkin, you have studied this policy, you have written books about this policy. Tell me why the military stands behind don't ask, don't tell?
DR. AARON BELKIN, CTR. FOR STUDY OF SEXUAL MINORITIES IN THE MILITARY: Well the Pentagon advances several reasons for the don't ask, don't tell policy, but the most important is the unit cohesion argument, which is the argument if the ban were lifted heterosexual dislike of gay soldiers is so intense that units would not be able to function in combat, straights would not be able to form bonds of trust with gays and lesbians.
PHILLIPS: And that's exactly what DOD came out -- the Department of Defense. Here's the statement: "The DOD Homosexual Contact Policy is based in law. Congress has stated that homosexual contact poses risks to unit cohesion and readiness. The department continues to work tirelessly to administer that law in a manner that is both fair and consistent."
Dr. Belkin, you've also talked about the fact that the military believes there could be a lot of violence that's sparked by banning this?
BELKIN: Yes. Some people have argued that if the ban is lifted, then the level of anti-gay violence will increase and gays could be beaten or even worse if they're allowed to serve openly.
PHILLIPS: And also consequences for heterosexual privacy. Has that been an issue also?
BELKIN: That's the third rationale and that's actually articulated in congressional statute as well as federal case law. And the argument there is that if the ban is lifted then heterosexual privacy in military barracks will be compromised.
PHILLIPS: So, Jeff, consequences for heterosexual privacy, combat readiness not being affected and also an outbreak of violence or beatings if this is lifted. Do you agree with any of that?
CLEGHORN: Well these are very legitimate issues in terms of military readiness issues. The problem with them is they are not legitimate bases upon which to exclude gays from service.
All of the empirical evidence that has been developed, all of it points to the fact that there is not a risk to cohesion, there is not a problem with privacy rationales in terms of incorporating gay people into military service.
Twenty-four foreign militaries have lifted their gay bans. And there are studies that show when they lifted the bans there was not a detriment readiness and that there was not an increase in violence, nor was there a derosion, a lessening of the privacy rights of straight soldiers.
PHILLIPS: This is interesting. Dr. Belkin if that's indeed true, the 24 foreign militaries lifting their bans, that means U.S. soldiers right now, side by side in Afghanistan and Iraq are fighting with gay soldiers?
BELKIN: Absolutely. My institute is actually just now finishing a study on Americans who have served with openly gay foreigners in the context of the war on terror and multinational units under the United Nations.
But you don't even have to look there, because the U.S. military itself has a 50-year practice of suspending or relaxing the gay ban during wartime when cohesion matters most.
So I would actually agree with Mr. Cleghorn that all the evidence shows if the ban is lifted, unit cohesion will not suffer, violence will not increase.
PHILLIPS: Jeff, are there a lot of gays in the military? Have you done studies? Do you know numbers?
CLEGHORN: Well the Urban Institute recently released a statistic telling us there are 1 million gay and lesbian veterans out of the 25 million-plus veterans in this country. That's a lot.
I'm in touch with a number of gay soldiers in the military right now. A young, gay infantryman in 10th Mountain Division in Afghanistan, he and I are e-mailing back and forth.
He has shared with me that he's out of the closet to all of his buddies in his infantry platoon. These guys are on the battlefields of Afghanistan. The cohesion is working well. He is fully accepted by his peers, and he's a good soldier, he's exactly what the army needs. But he's having to live under the extraordinary circumstances.
PHILLIPS: Well you decided to get out of the military because you just could not deal with the policy and wanted to come forward with your lifestyle. Now you're working on this initiative. Tell us about this. I know we have the Web site, too, that we're going to bring up. How are you hoping to educate people through your Web site and through your studies.
CLEGHORN: Well don't ask, don't tell is ten-years-old. What we are working on now is developing bridges between the social science evidence that's been gathered the last ten years and the facts of don't ask, don't tell and the broader veterans community in the United States.
So we're putting together a public education project called the Military Education Initiative that will be a first effort to educate veterans about the truth of don't ask, don't tell and the service of their gay and lesbian peers.
PHILLIPS: All right, actually the Web site that we brought up was Dr. Belkin's Web site, and that was TheGayMilitary.ucsb.edu. Your's is MilitaryEducation.org.
Are a lot of soldiers and sailors talking about openly about being gay in the military or no? They've had to be retired, right?
CLEGHORN: Right. Service members who are on active duty are not allowed to speak openly about their sexuality. So we have a million retires, those of us who have served and have sacrificed, because we care about the country and we are working to bring the stories to the forefront of the American public's consciousness because we believe they're very powerful.
And we think that they go directly to the heart of the rationale behind the policy, that we were there, we served just as the generals and admirals served. And they certainly were not detrimental to readiness of to cohesion, that we're loyal Americans, that we want to be able to serve.
PHILLIPS: It will be interesting to see what happens to the soldier in Afghanistan that is corresponding with you and is open.
Quickly, Dr. Belkin, are things going to change?
BELKIN: I think we have a long way to go. This policy is deeply locked in. Attitudes are changing, 64 percent of the publics says gays should serve openly. It's a question of whether politicians will show the courage to move the military on to the right side of history.
PHILLIPS: We'll continue to follow it. Dr. Aaron Belkin and Jeff Cleghorn, thank you so much both for your time.
CLEGHORN: Thank you, Kyra.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired December 11, 2003 - 14:48 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the year before don't ask don't tell was enacted, one high-ranks officer drew national attention to homosexuality in the military. She was Colonel Marguerite Cammermeyer, and in 1992 she was the highest ranking officer to come out of the closet. She was kicked out of the Washington National Guard at that time but later reinstated.
Well since then nearly 10,000 other members of the military have been kicked out for revealing their homosexuality. So does don't ask, don't tell work? Joining me to discuss that are Dr. Aaron Belkin. He's in San Francisco. He's with the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military.
And here in Atlanta, retired Army Major Jeff Cleghorn who is here because he's knows firsthand about being gay and being in the military. He's also an attorney and director of the Military Education Initiative.
Glad to have both of you here. Jeff, let's start with you. Twelve years you were in the military, a family tradition. Why did you join?
MAJ. JEFF CLEGHORN, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well I joined the military out of a small town in Georgia, the reason why most young men and women join. A sense of patriotism, a sense of adventure, wanting to obtain the educational benefits that are available through military service to go to college.
PHILLIPS: Now you told me you knew something was different, but you weren't quite sure that you were gay. So you got into the military. How did you come to grips with this? How did you realize, OK, I'm gay and I have to deal with this?
CLEGHORN: Well I think ever person's journey into self- acceptance is a unique one. Certainly mine was. It takes a period of time. It's not a button or switch that people can push and very comfortably acknowledge publicly to family and close friends that are gay.
So over a period of time, meeting people and thinking...
PHILLIPS: And you met a lot of gay soldiers , too, right?
CLEGHORN: Instead I did, gay soldiers, and other people throughout the world, as the Army took me around the world, who were gay. I became to realize there was nothing unusual about me being gay and certainly nothing wrong with being gay. So I became comfortable with who I am as a human being.
PHILLIPS: So why does the don't ask, don't tell work?
CLEGHORN: Well I think the reason don't ask, don't tell does not work is evidenced by the story in "The New York Times." We have three retired flag officers, extraordinary men of great achievement and talent...
PHILLIPS: You know them well.
CLEGHORN: ... who I know and are very accomplished in their civilian lives as well. And under don't ask, don't tell these people would be investigated and thrown out of the military. And that's just absurd.
PHILLIPS: So, Dr. Belkin, you have studied this policy, you have written books about this policy. Tell me why the military stands behind don't ask, don't tell?
DR. AARON BELKIN, CTR. FOR STUDY OF SEXUAL MINORITIES IN THE MILITARY: Well the Pentagon advances several reasons for the don't ask, don't tell policy, but the most important is the unit cohesion argument, which is the argument if the ban were lifted heterosexual dislike of gay soldiers is so intense that units would not be able to function in combat, straights would not be able to form bonds of trust with gays and lesbians.
PHILLIPS: And that's exactly what DOD came out -- the Department of Defense. Here's the statement: "The DOD Homosexual Contact Policy is based in law. Congress has stated that homosexual contact poses risks to unit cohesion and readiness. The department continues to work tirelessly to administer that law in a manner that is both fair and consistent."
Dr. Belkin, you've also talked about the fact that the military believes there could be a lot of violence that's sparked by banning this?
BELKIN: Yes. Some people have argued that if the ban is lifted, then the level of anti-gay violence will increase and gays could be beaten or even worse if they're allowed to serve openly.
PHILLIPS: And also consequences for heterosexual privacy. Has that been an issue also?
BELKIN: That's the third rationale and that's actually articulated in congressional statute as well as federal case law. And the argument there is that if the ban is lifted then heterosexual privacy in military barracks will be compromised.
PHILLIPS: So, Jeff, consequences for heterosexual privacy, combat readiness not being affected and also an outbreak of violence or beatings if this is lifted. Do you agree with any of that?
CLEGHORN: Well these are very legitimate issues in terms of military readiness issues. The problem with them is they are not legitimate bases upon which to exclude gays from service.
All of the empirical evidence that has been developed, all of it points to the fact that there is not a risk to cohesion, there is not a problem with privacy rationales in terms of incorporating gay people into military service.
Twenty-four foreign militaries have lifted their gay bans. And there are studies that show when they lifted the bans there was not a detriment readiness and that there was not an increase in violence, nor was there a derosion, a lessening of the privacy rights of straight soldiers.
PHILLIPS: This is interesting. Dr. Belkin if that's indeed true, the 24 foreign militaries lifting their bans, that means U.S. soldiers right now, side by side in Afghanistan and Iraq are fighting with gay soldiers?
BELKIN: Absolutely. My institute is actually just now finishing a study on Americans who have served with openly gay foreigners in the context of the war on terror and multinational units under the United Nations.
But you don't even have to look there, because the U.S. military itself has a 50-year practice of suspending or relaxing the gay ban during wartime when cohesion matters most.
So I would actually agree with Mr. Cleghorn that all the evidence shows if the ban is lifted, unit cohesion will not suffer, violence will not increase.
PHILLIPS: Jeff, are there a lot of gays in the military? Have you done studies? Do you know numbers?
CLEGHORN: Well the Urban Institute recently released a statistic telling us there are 1 million gay and lesbian veterans out of the 25 million-plus veterans in this country. That's a lot.
I'm in touch with a number of gay soldiers in the military right now. A young, gay infantryman in 10th Mountain Division in Afghanistan, he and I are e-mailing back and forth.
He has shared with me that he's out of the closet to all of his buddies in his infantry platoon. These guys are on the battlefields of Afghanistan. The cohesion is working well. He is fully accepted by his peers, and he's a good soldier, he's exactly what the army needs. But he's having to live under the extraordinary circumstances.
PHILLIPS: Well you decided to get out of the military because you just could not deal with the policy and wanted to come forward with your lifestyle. Now you're working on this initiative. Tell us about this. I know we have the Web site, too, that we're going to bring up. How are you hoping to educate people through your Web site and through your studies.
CLEGHORN: Well don't ask, don't tell is ten-years-old. What we are working on now is developing bridges between the social science evidence that's been gathered the last ten years and the facts of don't ask, don't tell and the broader veterans community in the United States.
So we're putting together a public education project called the Military Education Initiative that will be a first effort to educate veterans about the truth of don't ask, don't tell and the service of their gay and lesbian peers.
PHILLIPS: All right, actually the Web site that we brought up was Dr. Belkin's Web site, and that was TheGayMilitary.ucsb.edu. Your's is MilitaryEducation.org.
Are a lot of soldiers and sailors talking about openly about being gay in the military or no? They've had to be retired, right?
CLEGHORN: Right. Service members who are on active duty are not allowed to speak openly about their sexuality. So we have a million retires, those of us who have served and have sacrificed, because we care about the country and we are working to bring the stories to the forefront of the American public's consciousness because we believe they're very powerful.
And we think that they go directly to the heart of the rationale behind the policy, that we were there, we served just as the generals and admirals served. And they certainly were not detrimental to readiness of to cohesion, that we're loyal Americans, that we want to be able to serve.
PHILLIPS: It will be interesting to see what happens to the soldier in Afghanistan that is corresponding with you and is open.
Quickly, Dr. Belkin, are things going to change?
BELKIN: I think we have a long way to go. This policy is deeply locked in. Attitudes are changing, 64 percent of the publics says gays should serve openly. It's a question of whether politicians will show the courage to move the military on to the right side of history.
PHILLIPS: We'll continue to follow it. Dr. Aaron Belkin and Jeff Cleghorn, thank you so much both for your time.
CLEGHORN: Thank you, Kyra.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
