The Web      Powered by
powered by Yahoo!


Return to Transcripts main page


How U.S. Troops Found Saddam Hussein; Interrogation: What's Saddam Hussein Saying?

Aired December 15, 2003 - 19:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, HOST (voice-over): Interrogating Saddam. Can the U.S. get him to talk? Will Saddam face the death penalty? Is he an enemy combatant or a POW?

Colin Powell undergoes prostate cancer surgery. What's his prognosis?

A cannibal on trial. Potential victims take the stand. A bizarre case keeps getting stranger.

Our special series, "Miracles." Extraordinary events that some say defy explanation. Do you believe?

And Saddam as cover boy? A famous face makes some fresh print.


ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.

COOPER: Good evening. Thanks for joining us on 360.

A startling development tonight. The secret is confirmed. A family attorney admitting the late Senator Strom Thurmond, once a staunch segregationist, did in fact father a child with an African- American woman. That story ahead tonight.

But first, our top story, the very latest on Saddam Hussein. Blunt words, "Good riddance," from President Bush, to the former Iraqi dictator today. Right now the interrogation is under way and we are learning new details about exactly what happened when U.S. troops came face to face with a man they had been hunting for months.

Tonight, we're tracking all these developing angles in live reports. CNN's Nic Robertson is in Tikrit. Senior White House correspondent John King is in Washington, so is CNN's national security correspondent, David Ensor.

We begin with Nic Robertson.

Nic, what have you learned?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, when the troops went to find Saddam Hussein, they were working on good intelligence, actionable intelligence that they had learned only hours before performing the raid. They also had good luck.

The moon wasn't up, the electricity had gone off. Their night vision goggles game them an advantage over their adversary. When they arrived in the compound, however, they didn't initially find Saddam Hussein. Soldiers were actually standing on top of a rug covering his tiny hiding hole.

When they realized where it was, lifted back the plug covering the hole and looked down into the hole, they were about to throw grenades into the hole or shoot in, as they would fearing perhaps someone was in there that might attack them. What they saw shocked them.

They saw a pair of hands appear, Saddam Hussein's hand. And as he put his hands up, he told them he wanted to negotiate.


MAJ. BRYAN REED, U.S. ARMY: He said, "I'm Saddam Hussein. I'm the president of Iraq, and I want to negotiate." And then the response from U.S. soldiers was, "President Bush sends his regards."


ROBERTSON: And I was in that compound earlier on today, inside Saddam Hussein's hole. The hole was tiny. The space that he was living in there was perhaps six feet long, two foot across, three foot high.

And when the troops came to raid it, the electricity providing the light in there was off. The electricity providing the fan, the ventilation providing him clean air, was also off. It must have been becoming somewhat claustrophobic in those conditions as the troops approached him when they found him. They whisked him out, processed him on the ground, we are told, and ran him off to a helicopter to take him away for questioning -- Anderson.

COOPER: Nic, what's going to happen to the $25 million reward that had been posted as a bounty for Saddam Hussein?

ROBERTSON: Anderson, it looks like it's going to stay in the bank for now at least, because the person that provided this intelligence, we are told, was picked up in Baghdad around lunchtime, the day Saddam Hussein was captured, whisked up to Tikrit, interrogated. Before even exact answers had been extracted from him troops were being deployed. Apparently he gave critical information at 5:00 that pinpointed a location of Saddam Hussein.

By 6:00, people -- the troops were surrounding the area. By 8:30, they captured Saddam. It seems the information this person provided was provided not willingly, but under duress. So it seems unlikely he'll be getting the money -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Nic Robertson live in Tikrit. Thanks very much, Nic.

Interrogators say Saddam is talking, but at this hour the question remains: is he really saying anything useful? Here's national security correspondent David Ensor.


DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a second day of questioning, military and CIA officers pressed Saddam Hussein for information about those attacking American forces in Iraq. The first day he was defiant. A "wise ass" was how one senior official candidly put it. For example, sources say Saddam denied having any hidden foreign prisoners, not American pilot Scott Speicher, not Kuwaitis or Iranians captured during previous wars.

He also denied having any ties to any terrorists or any weapons of mass destruction. From the top down, some administration officials are skeptical.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He didn't tell the truth for over a decade. I just can't believe he's going to change his ways just because he happens to be captured.

ENSOR: Interrogators want help finding Saddam's deputy, Izzat Ibrahim Al-Duri, and Hani Abd Al Latif Tilfah Al-Tikriti, two top Ba'athists suspected of masterminding some of the bloody attacks in Baghdad. Since Saddam was caught in primitive conditions, alone with no communications, he may no little about the insurgency. Still, he is being pressed.

REP. PORTER GOSS (R), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: There are all kinds of methods of professional interrogation, of ways to persuade people, incentivize people, motivate people. Most of them are mental. Some of them involve sleep deprivation or things like that, or what I will call your atmosphere is shaped to encourage you to talk to me truthfully.


ENSOR: Tonight, Defense Department officials are saying that documents found with Saddam show he was connected with the insurgency, in touch with its leaders. And General Mark Hurtling (ph) in Baghdad has said that two key figures were arrested based on information in those documents. Here in Washington, however, other officials say they do not believe the documents led to any arrest to date -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, David Ensor. Thanks very much for that, David.

President Bush spoke with reporters today, saying he doubts Saddam Hussein will provide much helpful information. But he's determined to work with Iraqi to bring the man to trial.

Senior White House correspondent John King has more.


JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president says it is too soon to say exactly how and when Saddam Hussein will face trial. But that Iraqis must take the lead.

BUSH: He murdered them, gassed them, he tortured them. He had rape rooms. And they need to be very much involved in the process.

KING: His personal view of the capture?

BUSH: Good riddance.

KING: A clear hint, but no direct answer when asked if he favors execution.

BUSH: I said I have my own personal views, and this is a brutal dictator.

KING: Administration officials believe Saddam could be in U.S. custody for months until a new sovereign Iraqi government can legally take custody. The White House wants Iraqis to run the tribunal with U.S. help, but is not ruling out some advisory role for the United Nations.

BUSH: Whatever justice is meted out needs to stand international scrutiny.

KING: The former Iraqi leader allegedly once ordered the assassination of the president's father. And Mr. Bush recalled their telephone conversation as news of the capture broke.

BUSH: I just said, "Congratulations. It's a great day for the country." And I said, "It's a greater day for the Iraqi people."

BUSH: Mr. Bush warned of more attacks and more sacrifice in the days ahead, but also included the capture of Saddam in testing an early reelection campaign theme.

BUSH: In 2003 we've become a safer, more prosperous and better nation.


KING: That news conference ran 46 minutes in all. Mr. Bush repeatedly brushing aside questions about the coming campaign. Yet when asked about Democratic frontrunner Howard Dean's suggestion that Mr. Bush might have been warned in advance about the September 11 attacks, the president did decide to answer, Anderson, calling it "an absurd insinuation."

COOPER: All right. John King at the White House. Thanks very much, John.

Also in Washington today, the State Department says Secretary of State Colin Powell's surgery for prostate cancer went fine. He is expected to make a full recovery, they say. Now the secretary's condition was first diagnosed last summer. Medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us now from Atlanta with more on this type of surgery.

Good evening, Sanjay.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson. Prognosis very good, as is with most patients who have this sort of tumor in their prostate, a slow-growing tumor.

What we can tell you so far, what we've learned, a localized cancer in his prostate. The operation took about two hours. This was all based on a biopsy that was done about four months ago. Surgeons waited until now to do this operation mainly because it was more convenient for the secretary at this time.

That means a couple of things as a doctor. One, is that it's probably a very slow-growing tumor. And two, he probably has a very good prognosis after this sort of operation.

A couple of facts to sort of keep in mind when talking about prostate cancer. First of all, Secretary Powell is 66 years old. Relevant because 70 percent of cancer diagnosed -- prostate cancer diagnosed is in men over the age of 65.

Also, there's a great preponderance among African-American men. Seventy percent more often in African-American men than white men. And African-American men also more likely to die if they have aggressive prostate cancer.

We've also been using the term "localized" quite a bit. I want to just define that really quick as well, Anderson. Localized tumor basically means that it's confined to the prostate, as is opposed to regional, which means that it may have spread to nearby areas such as the lymph nodes, or metastasized, which means that it could spread to other organs.

Again, bottom line, Anderson, prognosis very good. Five-year survival rate after something like this, nearly 100 percent -- Anderson.

COOPER: What are the chances of this type of cancer coming back?

GUPTA: Very, very small, actually. Again, based on everything that we can tell, being that it was localized, being that the operation went well, the prostate was removed with the cancer, the chance of it coming back, very, very small. Certainly it does happen in certain situations, but very low risk -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Sanjay Gupta in Atlanta. Thanks very much.

GUPTA: Thank you.

COOPER: Let's try and put this in perspective for a moment. Prostate cancer is the second leading cause of cancer death in men, exceeded only by lung cancer. One in six men will get prostate cancer during his lifetime. One in 32 will die from it.

The good news: the death rate for prostate cancer is going down. The disease is being detected earlier.

Well, right now we are following a number of other stories "Cross Country." Let's take a look.

Washington D.C.: flu help. The federal government buys more than 300,000 doses of flu vaccine from a company in Great Britain. It hopes to get more, they say. The drugs are licensed for use in the U.S. The Feds say they'll send it wherever it's needed most.

Washington, D.C.: Cheney's silence. The vice president's lawyers are going there to the Supreme Court. They want to block the disclosure of whom the VP was talking to when he formulated the administration's energy policy. Mr. Cheney was ordered by a federal judge to give the documents up last year. His appeal to the Supreme Court will be heard in February.

Chesapeake, Virginia: Malvo trial. The defense in the second D.C. sniper trial, they have rested. And before it rested, the prosecution has put on a second rebuttal witness to say that Lee Boyd Malvo is not crazy and that he knew exactly what he was doing. Malvo potentially faces the death penalty if convicted. Closing arguments could begin tomorrow.

Modesto, California: another trial leaving town? The defense in the Scott Peterson murder case is asking a judge to move the trial. Peterson's lawyers say the jury pool is tainted because of an unprecedented level of publicity. Peterson, of course, is charged with killing his pregnant wife and their unborn son.

That is a look at stories right now "Cross Country."

Well, they called him "Nurse Death." Some did. Now he pleads guilty, admitting to killing dozens of patients. Find out what drove this Navy veteran to murder.

Plus, a girl in a semi-comatose state. Why do some believe she can make miracles happen? The strange story of Audrey Santo ahead as we begin our special weeklong series, "Miracles."

Also, racism, hypocrisy and a long-held family secret. Tonight, new developments in the case of a former senator and strong segregationist who had a child with an African-American woman.

That ahead. But first, take a look "Inside the Box" at the top stories on tonight's network newscasts.


COOPER: Well, another case of mass murder has apparently come to light. This time it involves a man who was a nurse and may have killed as many as 40 sick patients in New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

Deborah Feyerick has more. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Investigators say Charles Cullen called the murders mercy killings. The former nurse allegedly targeting very sick patients to ease their pain and suffering.

CHARLES CULLEN, DEFENDANT: Your Honor, I don't wish to be represented. I don't plan to contest the charges. I plan to plead guilty.

FEYERICK: Cullen is charged with murder and attempted murder. One of his alleged victims, New Jersey Reverend Florian Gaul (ph). The Catholic vicar suffered cardiac arrest late June. An autopsy finding he died of a lethal level of the heart drug Digoxin.

DR. WILLIAM KORS, SOMERSET MEDICAL CENTER: Digoxin in very high doses can cause a slowing of the heart rate to a point where the heart would stop.

FEYERICK: For more than a year, Cullen worked as a nurse at the Somerset Medical Center in Somerville, New Jersey. Police investigators believe Cullen may have killed as many as 15 patients there and that he did it by using a hospital computer to get large doses of heart medication from an in-house supply.

WAYNE FOREST, SOMERSET COUNTY PROSECUTOR: He would access it, obtain the medication he was going to use. In that case, a medication called Digoxin. He would cancel the order after obtaining the medication to attempt to disguise his theft of the drugs. He would then administer the drugs.

FEYERICK: Prosecutors say Cullen would access patient records to check how his alleged victims were doing. Investigators are looking into as many as 40 deaths at 10 different hospitals in New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

FOREST: He asserted that his motive was to alleviate pain and suffering in these cases.


FEYERICK: Cullen, a Navy veteran, has worked as a nurse for 16 years. He was fired from Somerset Medical Center in October. The hospital says for lying about past jobs. The hospital says it suspected it had a problem in June after discovering what it called extremely high levels of the heart drug into the patients -- Anderson.

COOPER: Just an unbelievable case. Deborah Feyerick, thanks very much.

Well, right now we are following a number of international stories for you. Let's go global. Let's check out the "UpLink."

Baghdad: anti-coalition violence in Iraq isn't ending with the capture of Saddam Hussein, sad to say. Two car bombs today in the Iraqi capital killed at least seven people. Six of them Iraqi police officers.

The Hague, Netherlands: U.S. presidential candidate Wesley Clark says Saddam Hussein should face a war crimes trial with the death penalty possible. He is there testifying in the war crimes trial of another ousted leader, Slobodan Milosevic. Clark, of course, was supreme commander of NATO when it ended the Yugoslav president's campaign against ethnic Albanians.

Kabul, Afghanistan: the constitutional council has run into its first stumbling block. Women are protesting that the men are trying to shut them out of leadership positions.

Oslo, Norway: in a private ceremony today, caretakers paid last respects to Keiko -- I'm not sure how to pronounce Keiko's name. Maybe it's Keiko or Keiko. The killer whale that starred in the "Free Willy" movies -- everyone probably knows this whale as Willy.

No, he was not buried at sea. Apparently the Orca was laid to rest in a snowbound pasture near where he died Friday as trainers tried to reintroduce him to the wild. They believed he had pneumonia.

That is a look at tonight's "UpLink."

Now to our special weeklong pre-holiday series, "Miracles." Open up the Miriam Webster dictionary and a miracle is defined as "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." Those who believe say modern-day miracles happen all the time. Doubters say miracles are in the eye of the beholder.

Here's what we got planned for this week.


COOPER (voice-over): We begin our series tonight with the story of Audrey Santo, a young girl who some fervently believe has inspired miracles. For 16 years, Audrey Santo has been in a semi-comatose state after nearly drowning at the age of three. Over the years, thousands of visitors have flocked to her home, hoping to witness something, paintings that weep, statues that bleed, illnesses being cures.

Is it a hoax? In a moment you'll see for yourself.

On Tuesday, you may not believe in miracles, but the Catholic Church does. In fact, performing two miracles is part of the requirement for sainthood. Can a miracle actually be verified? We'll visit the Vatican's congregation for the causes of the saints, known as the Miracle Verification Unit.

On Wednesday, is there such a thing as a medical miracle? A tumor mysteriously disappears. A coma patient suddenly wakes up. Can these medical feats that seem to defy all plausible explanations actually be medical miracles?

On Thursday, apparitions of the Virgin Mary. Many believe they've spotted them on office building windows, even fence posts and tree stumps. Why do these sightings create such pandemonium? We'll look at the world's ongoing fascination with Mary.

On Friday, miracles by their very nature defy logic. Yet most people say they do believe in them. The question is, why? We'll examine what miracles, real or imagined, do for the rest of us.


COOPER: Well, we hope you'll join us all week for our series. Coming up right now, the semi-comatose teenage girl some say produces miracles. Is it a hoax? See for yourself.

Plus, a cannibal who ate a volunteer victim. Was it killing on demand or murder? The latest from the shocking trial.

And a little later, war crimes and a former dictator. How will justice be served against Saddam Hussein? We'll take a closer look at that.

First, today's "Buzz" question. Who should try Saddam Hussein: Iraqis, the U.S. military or the world court? Vote now, The results at the end of the program.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think miracles happen because of people's faith, people's beliefs, and people looking for them and wanting to find a miracle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you believe enough, thought becomes reality and you get something you may not have expected.


COOPER: Well, we begin tonight with our special report on miracles with the strange, sad story of Audrey Santo. She turns 21 on Friday and has been in a semi-comatose state since the age of three.

Thousands of people have flocked to her bedside. Some claim she's helped heal them. We get more now from CNN's Adaora Udoji.


ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Audrey Santo has not talked or barely moved since she nearly drowned 16 years ago. But her mother believes from her bed Audrey performs miracles.

LINDA SANTO, AUDREY SANTO'S MOTHER: Healing people walking, cancer, M.S.

UDOJI: Those who flock to Audrey? In 1999, nearly 10,000 gathered at a nearby stadium.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not a hoax. We're all instruments. We're all here for a purpose. UDOJI: Pilgrims flocked to her family's chapel to ask for Audrey's prayers to witness religious artifacts weeping oil.

(on camera): The Diocese of Worcester did investigate these claims of miracles, but in a cautiously worded report, concluded the proof was inconclusive. But they did find something else.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most miraculous thing we feel is that people are finding a renewed sense of hope when they visit the family. They are touched by the amazing dedication the family has had for their child.

UDOJI: Others are far more skeptical.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The claims of miracles, trying to maybe redeem the situation, are understandable, but I think that there are no miracle claims that have been proven in the case of Audrey Santo.

UDOJI: Skeptics don't bother Linda Santo. She believes the family is on a mission guided by god.

Adaora Udoji, CNN, Worcester, Massachusetts.


COOPER: We're joined now by Audrey's mother, Linda Santo, who is in her home in Worcester, Massachusetts tonight.

Linda, thanks very much for being with us. When people visit your home, what do you think they are really looking for?

SANTO: Miracles. They are looking for their faith renewed, conversion, to feel good.

COOPER: And how is it that you believe your daughter, Audrey, who is in a semi-comatose state, hasn't really communicated verbally since her accident at the age of three, how do you believe she is doing this?

SANTO: Oh, I don't think she is doing anything. I think that god is doing it, and he is using Audrey. He didn't do this. He's just utilizing the situation.

COOPER: Utilizing her how? What is it that -- I mean, in what way?

SANTO: Well, it's like if I called you and asked you to pray for me. It's an intercessory thing. So people come and ask Audrey to pray for them, to bring their petitions, so to speak, to the throne of god. And because Audrey is so pure and sinless, there couldn't be any other way she could do this.

COOPER: There are those -- I mean, you know this. You've been doing this for a long time. You know there are a lot of skeptics out there. There are those who say you have put your daughter on display, that thousands of people have come, that she hasn't had a say, and that she really wants this to go on. Do you think she does?

SANTO: Oh, I do. And I think she's probably the most well taken care of person in the world. Oftentimes when people come into her three rooms, I tell them she's not spoiled, she's just well taken care of. So I'm not really here to convince a skeptic.

COOPER: There are also those -- there have been claims of statues weeping oil, of blood coming from statues. "The Washington Post" I guess tested some of this oil. They found it contained 80 percent corn or soybean oil, 20 percent chicken fat, the kind of things you'd cook up in the kitchen.

How do you explain that?

SANTO: I don't explain it. I know that when we originally did this, through the HS (ph) lab in Cambridge, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tested the oil, which had no fingerprints. And it was just an unknown origin. Whatever "The Washington Post" did with it, I have no clue.

COOPER: How are you going to celebrate your daughter's birthday?

SANTO: Well, it's actually -- we're going to celebrate it at home. She's 20, not 21, but we're going to celebrate it at home with her family and ministry and close friends.

COOPER: Well, Linda Santo, we appreciate you joining us tonight. Thank you very much.

SANTO: Thank you, god bless you.

COOPER: Well, our series on miracles continues tomorrow. Can a miracle be verified? The Catholic Church tries. We're going to look at the Vatican's Miracle Verification Unit charged with investigating those who would be saints.

On Wednesday, against all odds. What some say are medical miracles. A special report from CNN medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Thursday, why are there so many alleged sightings of the Virgin Mary? We're going to take a closer look at that.

And we go full circle on Friday and talk about the importance of miracles, their affects on your mind and body, real or imagined.


COOPER (voice-over): They surfed the Web and almost ended up on the menu. New testimony in the bizarre cannibal trial.

A surprise addition to Strom Thurmond's family.

And he spent months in hiding. Now we can't hide from this face.

We'll be right back.



COOPER: Time for "The Reset." Tonight's top stories.

The White House. President Bush says Saddam Hussein will be going on trial and that the U.S. will work with the Iraqis to make sure his trial is fair and withstands international scrutiny. In a few minutes, we're going to talk to an expert in prosecuting war crimes.

Wall Street. Stock market watchers who were hoping for a Saddam bounce were disappointed today. After a sharp move upward at the start of trading, bad news from Wal-Mart put a damper on things. The Dow Industrials closed down almost 20 points.

Pyongyang, North Korea. Classic Mixed messages concerning North Korea tonight. The North Koreans say they are rejecting a U.S. proposal to end the crisis over their nuclear-weapons program. At the same time, President Bush is saying the U.S. is pleased with the diplomatic progress that is being made.

Charleston, South Carolina. Parents of some of the kids searched in that high school lockdown have filed suit. Remember this video? The commando-style raid used search dogs. Guns were drawn. Police officers were seen on videotape with weapons out. No drugs were found, however. More on this as it develops.

That's tonight's "Reset."

When Strom Thurmond died this summer at 100 years old, the senator from South Carolina left behind a wife and three children. Or so everybody thought. That was until this weekend when a fourth child made herself known to the public and brought a story hidden for 78 years to life.

David Mattingly has more.


DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Considered for years to be a poorly kept secret, the family of former U.S. Senator Strom Thurmond confirms the one-time fiery segregationist fathered a child of an African-American housekeeper back in 1925.

JACK BASS, STROM THURMOND BIOGRAPHER: They had an agreement that it would not be made public, that it would be just a family friendship.

MATTINGLY: Now 78 years old and a retired Los Angeles schoolteacher, Essie Mae Washington-Williams broke her lifetime of silence in an interview published Sunday by "The Washington Post."

Williams' mother was a teenager working in a Thurmond family home, and the future senator was just 22 when she was born. She recounted how Thurmond visited her and provided financial support to her for decades.

But she never said a word about being his daughter even when confronted by reporters.

BASS: Part of it was she didn't want to jeopardize -- didn't want to jeopardize his political career, and she considered him a wonderful man.

MATTINGLY: Strom Thurmond died six months ago at the age of 100. According to Williams' attorney, she came forward now seeking acknowledgment at the urging of her children. And, in a brief statement from the Thurmond family, she seems to find it.

It reads, "As J. Strom Thurmond has passed away and cannot speak for himself, the Thurmond family acknowledges Ms. Essie Mae Washington-Williams' claim to her heritage. We hope this acknowledgement will bring closure for Ms. Williams."

Williams reportedly will not seek any money from the Thurmond estate, satisfied knowing that her chapter in the life of one of the nation's most storied politicians will now be part of history.

David Mattingly, CNN.


COOPER: Time for "Justice Served." We turn to a bizarre trial going on in Germany.

And before we do get to the story, I just want to warn some viewers, if you have children in the room or you're particularly squeamish, you may not want to see this next report.

A German court today heard more testimony against an admitted cannibal accused of murder for what the court calls sexual satisfaction.

Stephanie Halasz has our report.


STEPHANIE HALASZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A relaxed- looking Armin Meiwes appeared in court again. He is the notorious defendant who put an ad on the Internet looking for someone willing to be slaughtered and then eaten.

He found a voluntary victim in March 2001, a 43-year-old computer expert, Bernd Jurgen Brandes, who allowed Meiwes to cut up his genitals, which they then shared as a meal. Then Meiwes killed Brandes with a knife.

Monday in court, the public was excluded. Two other men who had answered similar ads from Meiwes before and after Brandes' death testified. The court later said one of them, a 34-year-old cook, testified he had met the defendant several times and had allowed Meiwes to hang him upside down from a butcher hook, rub him with marinade, and put meat labels on him. But the defendant's lawyer said, although Meiwes had the chance to kill him, he did not let his desire overcome him.

The German police arrested Meiwes last year after finding another ad searching for someone willing to be slaughtered on the Internet. The former soldier could spend his life in prison if he is convicted of murder for sexual satisfaction.

But his defense is pleading the lesser charge of killing on demand, which could mean only five years behind bars. Cannibalism itself is not a crime in Germany. The trial is expected to go on into late January.

Stephanie Halasz, CNN, Berlin.


COOPER: Strangest story I've ever heard.

More "Justice Served" now. With Saddam Hussein in custody, just what are they going to do with him? It's likely he'll face a trial. But exactly what kind of trial and in front of what sort of jury? No one knows just yet.

With us from Houston tonight is a woman who can tell us what she thinks from a well-informed perspective. Judge Gabrielle Kirk McDonald is a former judge and also the former president of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia.

Judge, I appreciate you being with us.

There are a -- there is a lot that goes into creating a tribunal like this. What are some of the steps the Iraqis will now be facing, or the U.S., or whomever is going to put this thing together?

JUDGE GABRIELLE KIRK MCDONALD, INTERNATIONAL JURIST: Well, the statute was adopted just, I guess, five days ago on December the 10th, and so the statute provides that the president is to draft the rules of procedure and evidence. So I imagine that that will be the first step.

But the prosecution's department will have to be staffed. There's a provision for 20 prosecutors. Judges will have to be selected. Five judges for the trial chambers, nine for the appeals chamber, and...

COOPER: And even more mundane things. I mean when you were -- you were in at the ground floor of the tribunal in The Hague, and you had to start, I mean, finding, you know, office space, finding ways to house those accused of crimes, I mean, and that's in The Hague. I mean you can imagine, I guess, if this thing is in Iraq, they're starting from baseline.

MCDONALD: Yes, from scratch, really. Yes, we had nothing. When we met in The Hague in November of 1993, the 11 judges for the Yugoslav tribunal, we had no premises, we had no rules of procedure, we didn't have a detention unit, we...

COOPER: How long did it take you...

MCDONALD: ... didn't have a courtroom.

COOPER: How long did it take you from the time you started to the time you actually started trying people?

MCDONALD: Three years really. But that's because the International Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia did not have the power to execute arrest warrants. It relies on the cooperation of states, and so we needed states to cooperate in executing our arrest warrants...

COOPER: So that may -- if it is...

MCDONALD: ... and for so long, they didn't.

COOPER: Of course, that may be a little bit -- a little bit easier because the people are already in custody.

MCDONALD: Exactly. That's for sure. That's for sure.

COOPER: Do you think there should be international judges on this panel?

MCDONALD: I think so. I think that's very important. There is a provision -- one provision in the -- in the statute that provides that the governing council can appoint international judges -- non- Iraqi judges.

There's another article, though, in the statute that curiously provides that all of the judges will be Iraqi nationals. So that needs to be resolved.

But I think that there should be international judges. For one thing, there are so many people who have gained a lot of experience in trying these complex and very difficult issues.

COOPER: And also, I guess, the...


COOPER: ... crimes of Saddam Hussein extend far beyond just Iraq. There are Kuwaitis, there are Iranians, there are other people who have been involved.

MCDONALD: Exactly. Exactly.

COOPER: It's certainly going to take a lot of time.

Judge Gabrielle Kirk McDonald, we appreciate you joining us tonight. Interesting perspective. Thank you.

MCDONALD: You're welcome.

COOPER: Here are some fast facts on recent war crimes trials for you.

The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia has issued 132 indictments. Thirty-one people have been convicted so far.

For war crimes and crimes against humanity committed in Rwanda, there have been 92 indictments and 17 convictions.

According to the State Department, more indictments are expected to be issued.

Well, of course we want to know what you think. Today's "Buzz" is this. Who should try Saddam Hussein? Iraqis, the U.S. military, or the world court. Vote now at Results at the end of the program.

And still to come tonight on "360," how do Iraqi insurgents feel about Saddam's capture? We're going to talk to a "TIME" magazine correspondent about that coming up.

Also ahead, headlines from around the country and around the world. Find out how the story is playing on the front page in today's "Fresh Print."


COOPER: Well, send us your instant feedback now or anytime. I'll be reading e-mails after the program.

For tonight's edition of "Fresh Print," we couldn't ignore Saddam Hussein, the headliner. The story of his capture is on the front pages around the world today. Here's a look at some of those headlines.

New Yorkers are known for being blunt. The "Daily News" headline certainly was. "We bag the bum."

"The Houston Chronicle" was perhaps more resolute: "1 Down, 1 to Go."

In the Middle East, the capture produced questions. The headline in Lebanon's "Al-Najar": "Saddam's Capture: Ending the War or Extending It?" In Israel's "Haaretz," "Saddam Could Reveal Arms Cache in Deal." Underneath the headline, a picture of Iraqis celebrating on the streets of Baghdad.

The French were, quel surprise, less excited. The daily "Le Monde" sniffed "End for Saddam, Success for Bush." No happy Iraqis on the front page. Just a cartoon. Apparently, the French like cartoons. Saddam, a tied-up Santa, a doll-like President Bush, and his bag of gifts.

Britain's "Daily Telegraph" seemed more excited, "We got him." Ambassador Paul Bremer's three words were the most popular headline around the world.

Those three words could also be found on the cover of "TIME" magazine. "TIME" and the Iraqi tyrant go way back. He first graced the cover on August 13th, 1990. He's been on 14 times in all. Many headlines, many hats. We think this is the best of all.

So how is Saddam's capture sitting with Iraqi insurgents? Well, earlier today, I spoke with "TIME" magazine correspondent Brian Bennett who has had access to Saddam loyalists.


COOPER: Brian, you had interviewed Iraqi insurgents. I understand you've talked to them again. How is this playing with them?

BRIAN BENNETT, "TIME" MAGAZINE: With the Iraqi insurgents, briefly, those who are loyal to Saddam, Saddam's capture has been a demoralizing blow. They are particularly upset at the way he was captured, that he did not go out fighting like his sons Uday and Qusay.

And for the faction of the resistance that were loyal to Saddam, that were fighting for him and hoping that he would come back to rule Iraq, they're very upset and ashamed as to how he was captured.

This does not mean, however, that the resistance will necessarily decrease. There's a significant number of fighters who are fighting for other reasons, fighting to get the occupying forces out of Iraq.

COOPER: Brian, what we've heard, largely through your own reporting, is that Saddam is talking but not necessarily being cooperative. What's the latest you have on what he may be saying?

BENNETT: What I have is that he's certainly answering the questions of interrogators. This is from a U.S. intelligence official. But he's not giving any information that has been particularly useful to those interrogators.

He has been asked about the weapons of mass destruction and said, just like he said before the war, that the U.S. has fabricated the details about the weapons of mass destruction in order to justify the invasion of Iraq.

He's been asked about Captain Scott Speicher, the U.S. Navy pilot who was downed in 1991, has been missing ever since. He said that he does not know where Captain Speicher is, and he also said that if he was taken prisoner, he would probably be executed, implying that he had no idea where he was except that he was probably dead at this point.

COOPER: In one of your articles, you quote a U.S. official asking this question: Have we actually cut the head of the snake, or is he just an idiot hiding in a hole? Which one do you think is the truth there?

BENNETT: Yes, I think it's probably somewhere in between. It's very clear that Saddam was a important figure to the resistance and particularly those who were loyal to him, who were part of his regime, and also he was supplying money to the resistance for buying weapons, for paying fighters to lay homemade bombs and attack U.S. convoys...

COOPER: Brian, what...

BENNETT: ... and it's unclear as to whether or not enough people who are below Saddam know where the money is and how to distribute it.

COOPER: Brian, what's the number one question you want answered that you, as of yet, have not heard?

BENNETT: Well, I'd certainly like to know exactly what motivated Saddam to fill the mass graves of Iraq, why he felt it necessary to order the killing of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis during the Iran- Iraq war and the Shia uprising in 1991.

COOPER: Brian Bennett, "TIME" magazine.

Your reporting has been excellent. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

BENNETT: Good to be with you.

COOPER: Well, still to come this evening, the pop culture's "Current" and "Arresting Images." The perp walks that speak a thousand words.


COOPER: We have some news that is just in to CNN. CNN has confirmed that charges against Michael Jackson will be filed this Thursday or Friday at Santa Barbara County Superior Court. That's the word from the district attorney's office. Stay tuned to CNN for the latest on that story.

Time to check the pop culture flow in tonight's "Current." Let's take a look.

Retail experts say Saddam Hussein's capture comes at the perfect time for store owners because it will cheer up customers going into the last week of the holiday shopping season, which proves that the old marketing axiom is true. If you want them in the store, arrest the tyrannical lice-ridden bore. Kind of rhymes.

If you're looking for a gift to put the ho in holiday, the brain trust at "Girls Gone Wild" has just the item, a CD of party music perfect for those intimate moments with random strangers. Producers of the show also say they're planning to open a restaurant with the "Girls Gone Wild" theme. My advice: Avoid the crowds.

Ashton Kutcher says he won't return to the hit MTV show "Punk'd" for a third season, disappointing prisoners around the nation who dream of one day seeing Kutcher himself punk'd on TV.

And the Beatles will soon mark the 40th anniversary of their first Billboard number one. Their new release, "Let It Be Naked," has just entered the colleague music journal's top 200. Congratulations, Beatles. You're now cool enough to be listened to by people wearing black frame glasses and T-shirts laced with irony.

Acquiring a reputation as a ruthless, blood-thirsty dictator obviously carries a lot of risks, but who'd have known one risk would be having the whole world see your face in the most humiliating mug shots imaginable? Jeanne Moos reports.


JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's the cover boy on every newspaper. Talk about "Arresting Images."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pretty, isn't he?

MOOS: It's one thing to see a movie star's disheveled mug shot, but whoever thought we'd be staring into the gaping mouth of Saddam Hussein?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He look like a bum.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look like a man defeated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They should have shot him in the hole.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I say we should hang him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt sorry for him almost.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I did, too, when I first saw him.

MOOS: Saw the fastidious former dictator being checked for lice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has hurt America so bad. I mean why would we be concerned if he has some weird disease?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was on top of the world, and, all of a sudden, he's really somebody that you could step on.

MOOS: Some folks saw a resemblance to others in the man "The New York Post" called "Hairy Hussein."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at the TV and he said, oh, looks like Fidel Castro.

MOOS: Now that we mention it...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a Castro-esque quality. The beard is Whitman, but, of course, analogy is strange.

MOOS: That would be poet Walt Whitman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the funny answer would be Santa Claus maybe.

MOOS: Maybe, in this season of bad Santas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the end of his career, Jerry Garcia started to look like that just a little bit.

MOOS: Reporter: But is Saddam grateful he's not dead, that he didn't go the way his sons went? The company that made the dualheaded action figure Uday Hussein is already rushing out a $30 Saddam Captured doll.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looks like hell, but you look great.

MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.


COOPER: And still to come, from palatial estates to a hole in the ground. We're going to take Saddam's capture to the "Nth Degree" when we come back.

And tomorrow on "360," continuing our series on miracles. We'll take a look at the Vatican's miracle verification unit. How would you like that job? We'll find out how the Catholic Church investigates potential miracles.

And today's "Buzz" question: Who should try Saddam Hussein? You can still weigh in if you can. Iraqis, the U.S. military, or the world court. Vote now at Results when we come back.


COOPER: Time now for the "Buzz." We asked you: Who should try Saddam Hussein -- Iraqis, the U.S. military or the world court? Here's what you said. Fifty percent said Iraqis. Six percent voted for the U.S. military. Forty-four percent said the world court should try him. Not a scientific poll, we should point out. Just your buzz. We appreciate you voting.

Tonight, taking shrinking territory to the "Nth Degree."

So there he was, a fellow who once had the entire country of Iraq for his playground, north to south, east to west, all up and down, both banks of the Tigris, room to spare.

Room to spare and rooms to spare. Palaces to pick and choose among with pillars and carpets and gilded bathroom fixtures and every one with room upon room upon room. A swaggering dictator could wander for days all under one roof.

Even when the roof was made of earth, it wasn't really so bad. Those famous bunkers of his were reportedly pretty plush. A guy could still stretch out, could still tell himself he was doing fine with all the modern conveniences and plenty of closet space.

Maybe it was less room than he was used to, but, hey, there was room enough. Until, at last, there was no room at all. The country and the palaces and the bunkers became a single hole grave deep, just wide enough to lie down in.

Saddam Hussein still had a roof over his head, yes, a roof not quite as big as the TV screen behind me. Sometimes the real word writes its own "Nth Degree."

That wraps up our program tonight.

Coming up next, Paula Zahn.


What's Saddam Hussein Saying?>

International Edition
CNN TV CNN International Headline News Transcripts Advertise With Us About Us
   The Web     
Powered by
© 2005 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.
A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines. Contact us.
external link
All external sites will open in a new browser. does not endorse external sites.
 Premium content icon Denotes premium content.
Add RSS headlines.