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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

What Will Happen to Saddam?; Interview With Bernard Shaw

Aired December 15, 2003 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Right now, dramatic new details emerging on the capture of Saddam Hussein. And what's in store for him in the weeks and months to come? Here's a hint: sleep deprivation.
Standby for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein.

BLITZER (voice-over): Will a public trial seal his fate?

Saddam speaks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is complying with the instructions and he is answering willingly the questions being asked of him.

BLITZER: We'll look at the latest intelligence.

The hole. We'll take you inside Saddam's last hideout.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT:: It's very difficult to get in, a little tough.

BLITZER: He went one on one with the dictator. I'll speak with one of our boys in Baghdad, Bernard Shaw.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Monday, December 15, 2003.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We're learning more about the capture of Saddam Hussein and his interrogation, but there's one big mystery: his whereabouts.

Saddam was taken first to Baghdad's International Airport. His current location is unknown. The ex-dictator is talking, but interrogators say it's more like he's trash-talking. His documents, though, are already paying off.

Saddam Hussein's capture has hardly broken the back, though, of the resistance. There were two deadly car bombings in the Baghdad area today. The targets: Iraqi police.

President Bush today vowed that Saddam Hussein will be put on trial and said it will be up to the Iraqis to decide if the former dictator should be executed.

Our reporters are standing by live with all the breaking details. Alphonso Van Marsh is in Saddam Hussein's hometown, Tikrit, where loyalties still run deep. Jane Arraf is in the Iraqi capital of Baghdad, where Iraqi insurgents have struck back. And Dana Bash is over at the White House, which is still glowing at Saddam's capture, but warning of difficulties ahead.

But we begin with Saddam Hussein's capture. This time, the inside story straight from the troops who carried out that historic raid near Tikrit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER (voice-over): A dictator on the run. Enemy soldiers closing in. Hardly new, but hardly normal either, despite one commander's understatement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To us, quite frankly, it was another raid.

BLITZER: Still, some bizarre circumstances around the capture of Saddam Hussein and new details of the operation emerging.

Colonel James Hickey, commander of the Raider Brigade of the U.S. Army's 4th Infantry Division. He says he knew who the target was Saturday night. His brigade and others had gone after Saddam at least a dozen times, but this night...

COL. JAMES HICKEY, U.S. ARMY: There was a good chance we would be successful because of the source of information.

BLITZER: After nightfall, 600 soldiers from the 4th Infantry and Special Forces sweep into the farm compound near a small village outside Tikrit. They find nothing at first. They come to a two-room hovel. In one room, two beds, books, clothes, fresh underwear still in its package. The other is a kitchen. Spam and Mars bars near the sink, rotting fruit on the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was very surprised how he was living, you know. Nobody expected him to be living like that.

BLITZER: Just outside those rooms, soldiers look around, one of them standing on a rug.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They didn't have a clue at the time, and then they moved it back, saw it, and heard noises in the bottom.

BLITZER: The soldiers pull up an 8" thick piece of Styrofoam and are about to execute a so-called clearing procedure, firing into the hole or dropping a grenade down. Someone sees upraised hands belonging to a tired, bedraggled and very wanted man.

He has a pistol. He doesn't use.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's when Saddam put his hands up and they assisted him out. BLITZER: In English, he says, "I am Saddam Hussein. I am the president of Iraq. I want to negotiate."

The soldiers reply, "President Bush sends his regards."

Outside, some members of the assault team still don't know who they have.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I couldn't really tell. I wouldn't have even known it was him. I was looking through a thermal imaging device.

BLITZER: Even back at a command post, senior officers need verification.

LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, CMDR. U.S. FORCES IN IRAQ: His two half-brothers had unhesitatingly identified him as Saddam, so we were pretty sure, but we needed to make sure that the Governing Council representatives believed that we had Saddam, and it was a very emotional meeting.

BLITZER: Later, Saddam drops the idea of negotiating and in his first interrogation, says a senior U.S. official, he is, quote, "a wise ass."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson visited the site of Saddam Hussein's capture and went inside the so- called spider hole where Saddam was hiding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: This tiny hole is really small inside. It's concrete mud on the floors. A wood (UNINTELLIGIBLE) here, wood around the top of the frame. It's very difficult to get in and out of. It wouldn't have been easy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: An amazing inside look. Nic's full report, something you will want to see. That's coming up later this hour. Really an amazing, amazing adventure.

Meanwhile, let's check in on the situation in Tikrit right now. Saddam Hussein's hometown, near the scene of his capture.

CNN's Alphonso Van Marsh is standing by live -- Alphonso.

ALPHONSO VAN MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf.

Also here on the scene are a lot of the very U.S. service members who actually took part in that ride. There's still a lot of buzz of that going on today, some troops calling it the day after the day after.

Over the weekend, we saw a lot of those U.S. military issued photos of the former Iraqi leader getting a medical check, and as you mentioned he is now in an undisclosed location.

Now the leading officer, Colonel James Hickey, as you mentioned, who led that raid, had a chance to go on back down to that area, about 30 miles south of Tikrit, and was showing reporters our first opportunity to see that small hole in the ground where the former Iraqi leader was pulled out by U.S. troops over the weekend.

Also interesting is the U.S. colonel says that it's a great sense of accomplishment, knowing that they were able to catch Saddam Hussein, but he said that he had a lot of work to do here still, and certainly one of those places where he'll have to do a lot of work is right behind me, here in downtown Tikrit.

Interesting thing, there are some protests, where some protesters supporting Saddam Hussein actually clashed with U.S. troops today -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Alphonso Van Marsh with the latest from Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's hometown.

So far, Saddam Hussein's capture has not diminished the violence in Iraq. Our Baghdad bureau chief Jane Arraf is standing by now, live, with details of new attacks in the Iraqi capital -- Jane.

JANE ARRAF, CNN IRAQ BUREAU CHIEF: Wolf, you're right. That violence has continued, this time at Iraqi police stations, which have become a favorite target.

Two car bombs resulting in at least six police officers dead and several more wounded.

But the capture of Saddam, according to military officials here, has already started paying off. They found in papers in his briefcase information that led them to at least two suspects here, one of them, they say, could be behind some of the attacks on U.S. forces here in the capital -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Is there a sense of relief in Baghdad, or is there still a great sense of nervousness that more of these attacks are on the way?

ARRAF: There is really a nervousness, a sense that perhaps things are still hanging in the balance and it could go either way, and we have to make clear that while there was some celebration over Saddam's capture, it was not universal. There were also demonstrations actually in support of Saddam, some of these people refusing to believe that that man who they saw, who looked so different from the leader they knew, was actually him -- Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Jane Arraf, our Baghdad bureau chief. Jane, thank you very much.

Here's your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our Web question of the day is this: should the United States negotiate with Saddam Hussein? You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results later in this broadcast. While you're there, I'd love to hear directly from you. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also where you can read my daily online column, CNN.com/wolf.

Captured in a dirt hole outside Tikrit, we get an in-depth look at Saddam Hussein's hiding place. You'll want to see this.

And President Bush has a few choice words for the deposed Iraqi leader.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein. I find it very interesting that when the heat got on, you dug yourself a hole.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So now that the United States has Saddam Hussein, how will it bring him to justice? We're live at the White House with details.

And few Western journalists have ever met the former Iraqi president face to face. My former colleague was one of them, Bernard Shaw. He will join us live with his reflections on all these dramatic developments.

First, though, our NEWS BLITZ.

Saddam Hussein holds the key to which U.S. city: Boston, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago. The answer coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: President Bush made it clear today the former dictator's fate will be in the hands of Iraqis.

Let's go live to our White House correspondent Dana Bash. She's standing by with the latest -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the president said he wants Iraqis heavily involved in bringing Saddam Hussein to justice, but the administration assumes he'll be in U.S. custody for at least six months, until Iraqis gain sovereignty of their country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): The president's press conference was 46 minutes, but there was no mistaking the headline: his message for Saddam Hussein.

BUSH: Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein. I find it very interesting that when the heat got on, you dug yourself a hole and you crawled in it. BASH: The administration plans to hold Saddam Hussein in U.S. custody until sovereignty is transferred to Iraqis. Eventually, Mr. Bush said, the former Iraqi leader should be tried in a manner that stands up to international scrutiny, but emphasized Iraqis should play a large role in the process.

BUSH: He murdered them. He gassed them. He tortured them. He had rape rooms. And they need to be very much involved in the process.

BASH: The president refused to say if he thinks Saddam Hussein should be executed, but his non-answer provided more than a clue.

BUSH: I have my own personal views, and this is a brutal dictator. He's a person who killed a lot of people.

BASH: Mr. Bush maintained a cautious demeanor, warning the violence is likely to continue. But he did express hope undecided Iraqis will now support the developing new government.

For the Bush family, the capture is personal. Saddam Hussein allegedly plotted to kill the first President Bush, who faced him down during the first Gulf War. One of the president's initial phone calls after the arrest was from his father.

BUSH: It was a very brief conversation. He just said congratulations, this is a great day for the country. And I said it's a greater day for the Iraqi people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: The Bush administration believes Saddam Hussein was probably too isolated to be directing the attacks against U.S. and coalition targets, and the $750,000 found with him was likely to pay people off to hide him -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Dana Bash, at the White House with the latest. Thanks, Dana, very much.

Reaction to the capture of Saddam Hussein continues to pour in. We have reports from Robin Oakley in Britain, Jim Bittermann in France and John Vause in the Middle East.

We begin with CNN's European political editor, Robin Oakley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN EUROPEAN POLITICAL EDITOR: Britain's media has gone to town on the capture of Saddam Hussein with plenty of triumphalism, but Mr. Blair's note has been far more cautious, stressing peace and reconciliation and new opportunities for Iraq. His problem is that he took the country to war to get rid of weapons of mass destruction. What he needs is to find those weapons of mass destruction rather than a disheveled ex-dictator.

Robin Oakley, CNN, London. JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The French were against the war, but they were never for Saddam Hussein, and the headlines in the paper today sort of reflect that. The very popular newspaper "La Parisienne" just had the headline "Captured" and the photo that was seen everywhere around the world today, and "Liberacion," another newspaper, had the headline "Finis." That probably needs no explanation.

Analysts here today were trying to figure out exactly what the capture of Saddam Hussein might mean for relations between France and Iraq and also between France and Europe and the United States, and at least one said that perhaps it could lead to some warming of relations, because for once the Europeans had been shown by the United States that the United States had gotten it right in Iraq. And also, this presented a window of opportunity because it was something that everybody could agree on.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Israelis have described the capture of Saddam Hussein as a moment in history when good conquers evil. There is also relief here that the man who fired SCUD missiles at this country during the 1991 Gulf War and more recently spent millions of dollars financing Palestinian militants is now in U.S. custody.

But for some Palestinians, Saddam Hussein was a hero and for the second day on the streets of Gaza a small number of Palestinians mourned his capture. But there is now a debate in Israel. Is this country safer for Saddam's demise? Some security officials say yes, but others fear those pictures of Saddam Hussein being poked and prodded will only arouse Arab anger, which will ultimately be directed towards Israel.

John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: What was it like down in the hole where Saddam Hussein was living? CNN's Nic Robertson walks you through the former dictator's last hiding place.

Then, does the capture of Saddam Hussein show that the new U.S. intelligence system is indeed working? Hear what the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee thinks.

And a one on one with Saddam Hussein. Few journalists have met the man. Our former CNN anchor Bernard Shaw is one of them. Hear his thoughts. He'll join me live. All of that, that's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Let's go now to Saddam Hussein's last hideout, that miserable hut near his hometown of Tikrit and that tiny hole in the ground, a world away from his marble palaces.

Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson takes us on an extraordinary tour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: This bridge leads down to the Tigris River. This is a pomegranate and orange orchard. And this is a small compound Saddam Hussein was living in. This is the kitchen here, a sink over here, medicine, Mars bars, a flashlight, a cap, rotting bananas. The place looks like a mess, not the sort of place you would expect to see a former president living in. Tins of Spam in the cupboard there.

And around this way, walking around the corner, behind the mud wall, a box of oranges lying on the floor, already beginning to rot, a pot of water here. The bedroom in here, two beds. And inside the bedroom a refrigerator, the heater. On the wall, posters. A Christian poster, Noah's Ark. The bed, crumpled bed clothing. Fresh, clean pair of boxer shorts, unused, still new. Another bed. A box full of clothes, a few books.

On the bookcase here, pictures, brand new frames, but nothing in the frames. No pictures to be spoken of. And down here, a pair of shoes, unused, some water, tracksuit bottoms. Just chaos. Not the conditions you'd really expect the former Iraqi leader to be living in.

This tiny hole is really small inside. It's concrete mud on the walls. A wood (UNINTELLIGIBLE) here. Wood around the top of the frame. It's very difficult to get in and out of. It wouldn't have been easy for the soldiers who discovered Saddam Hussein. He came with his hands up. He said, "I'm Saddam Hussein. I'm the president of Iraq and I want to negotiate."

To which the troops, we are told, responded, "President Bush sends his regards."

After that, Saddam Hussein was whisked out of the hole, pulled up, and taken away to a helicopter waiting in the field just across here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: CNN's Nic Robertson with a truly, truly amazing story.

Arrogance and attitude, that's all Saddam Hussein is reportedly giving investigators. Will he talk, though? What will he say? How can he be made to talk?

And Secretary of State Colin Powell's fight. He undergoes surgery today. We'll have a live report.

13 years later, he's one of the few who interviewed Saddam Hussein. So what's the journalist Bernard Shaw's take on his capture? I'll speak with Bernie later this hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN. What information could Saddam Hussein have for the United States government? And how will interrogators get it out of him? We'll get to all of that.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

(NEWSBREAK)

BLITZER: Will Saddam Hussein come clean? The ex-dictator is already getting the third degree from U.S. investigators.

Representative Porter Goss of Florida is the chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. Just a short time ago, I asked for his take on the capture of Saddam Hussein.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Mr. Chairman, thanks very much for joining us.

A lot of people don't understand your responsibility overseeing the intelligence community. When did you learn that Saddam Hussein looked like he had been captured?

REP. PORTER GOSS (R), HOUSE INTELLIGENCE CHAIR: Well, actually I found out Saturday evening. I was tipped off that this may be a possibility, and it was verified Sunday morning.

BLITZER: You used to work at the CIA, so you know the old fashioned intelligence. In this instance, human intelligence sources really helped pave the way. It wasn't some fancy high-tech spy in the sky kind of gadgetry.

GOSS: Wolf, exactly what happened here is that the intelligence community did its job in every aspect. It was team play. Everybody played their part. The analysts did a great job. They were forward leaning. The people who had to fill in the gaps in the information did a great job of being innovative and creative.

The action element, the people that actually went out and investigated this farm house, used creativity and ingenuity plus the information they had, and everybody made good decisions. They're well-trained people and finally we're yielding the harvest of all of the hard work and the patience that we've had to exercise going through a very complicated process.

BLITZER: All right, so what do you do now if you're in the United States intelligence community? You have Saddam Hussein. What do you do with him?

GOSS: Well, the first thing that you look at Saddam Hussein as, from the intelligence point of view, is a potential source of information. So you have professional interrogation and you realize the guy is very good at deception and denial and disinformation. But you also know that no matter who it is, that you might be able to get a piece of information here or glean something there or trick him on an item there that could lead to some more useful things. So it's worth the effort to have the interrogation, and Lord knows we have plenty of questions to ask him about the terrorist network, how they operate in Iraq, weapons of mass destruction and other things that have been very much on our mind.

BLITZER: This interrogation could go on for weeks and months before there is any trial.

GOSS: That's very possible if you just think of the discovery process in a trial in this country and how long that can take, you can think how long it might take to do the interrogation of Saddam.

BLITZER: Should the U.S. be willing to give some sort of mercy to Saddam Hussein if he does cooperate in spilling the beans about weapons of mass destruction, for example?

GOSS: I would not be the one doing the plea bargaining on this, if that's what you're suggesting. My view is that the information and acquisition process ought to be entirely different from the judicial process of judging Saddam for his past sins and crimes and I will leave that to the people who are going to do it. I don't know whether we can find a way to get a lift out of the information gathering process, but I would suggest that a professional interrogation will do everything it can to make all the news come forth.

BLITZER: Should there be physical pressure, sleep deprivation, loud music, loud noise, to try to get Saddam Hussein to crack?

GOSS: I think that Saddam should be treated as a hard case interrogee (sic). I think that means he will be interrogated using all of the in bounds allowed methods. Those are methods that I think you would consider proper under the circumstances.

We would certainly not step over the line and create anything that would, I think, go beyond the bounds of the norms of interrogation under this type of a combat situation. But there are a lot of psychological impacts that can be brought to bear that are well within bounds that are not torture.

BLITZER: A few examples.

GOSS: Sleep deprivation is one.

BLITZER: You just keep him awake for hours -- let him sleep for a few minutes then you wake him up.

GOSS: You ask any mother or father of a new child in this country about sleep deprivation and they can tell you something about sleep deprivation. It does put you off your mark a little bit and yet, it's not torture. It's just -- you are not operating at your best.

BLITZER: All the intelligence briefings you had going into the capture of Saddam Hussein, did you ever think -- was the assessment there that he was going to simply give up or he would go down in a blaze of fire? GOSS: I think that the most important thing that has come out of this is the absolute destruction of a macho image of Saddam Hussein. He is not the lion of Mesopotamia. He is not even a worthwhile leader. He is a coward seen hiding in his little hole coming meekly out.

That's not the image the followers of Saddam wanted. They have no place to go now. This is a huge breakthrough of the myth of the power of Saddam. He was brutal, he was ruthless, he killed without mercy. All of those things are true but his power was very thin. It was based on a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that has now been disrupted and there's no reason for people anymore to fear him or try and emulate him.

BLITZER: One final question. Osama bin Laden. How close do you believe the U.S. is to finding him?

GOSS: I think that it's a very complicated task. Again, we are looking for holes in hills here instead of holes in deserts to find him but we'll find his (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hole and I believe we will get it done. It will require good information and good team play that's on going. I'm confident we'll get there.

BLITZER: Porter Goss, thanks very much for joining us.

GOSS: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Well, so far it seems all Saddam Hussein is giving up is attitude. Joining us now is our national security correspondent David Ensor. You've been checking in to all of this, what are you finding out?

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, so far what we know is that again today, Wolf, he was interviewed, interrogated by U.S. military and intelligence officials. In the first such questioning yesterday, the former Iraqi leader was defiant, he was quite ready to talk but he offered no new information. He was, as one senior U.S. official put it to me, quote, a "wise-ass."

For example, sources say Saddam has denied having any hidden prisoners. Not Americans, Kuwaitis or Iranians, although he is known to have had some of the latter. He has denied having any ties with terrorists and he's denied having any weapons of mass destruction programs although the CIA's David Kay has found evidence that such programs did continue.

U.S. officials say the initial questioning is focusing mainly on the insurgency attacks against American forces. Is there anything that can be learned from Saddam that might save some lives? On that no one is particularly optimistic but they do feel it needs to be tried.

Over at the CIA today, Wolf, directors George Tenet and others met about the hunt in Iraq for weapons of mass destruction. That search has so far found no weapons and while officials say they are not holding their breath for Saddam to reveal all about WMD, they are at least hopeful that with his capture perhaps other Iraqi scientists who were involved in the programs may feel no longer fearful and able to tell what they know.

BLITZER: It might embolden them, encourage them to come out finally and talk. David Ensor, thanks very much for that report.

The secretary of state's surgery. The latest on Colin Powell's fight with prostate cancer and how he's faring. He underwent surgery earlier today. Also, what treatments are there besides surgery? We'll have a live report.

Plus this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The tragedy by our actions, our unilateralism, and our ill-considered war in Iraq is that we have empowered radicals and weakened moderates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Howard Dean on the defensive after Saddam Hussein's capture. Some are saying the presidential front runner's chances next year look bleak. Others disagree. Today, he counters the critics.

And a sit-down with Saddam Hussein more than a decade ago. I'll speak live with one of CNN's boys of Baghdad, Bernard Shaw. He'll be here. First, though, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): On the stand. Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark was in The Netherlands today to testify at the war crimes trial of former Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic. Clark was supreme NATO commander in 1999 when NATO bombed Serbia.

Constitutional convention. International peacekeepers provided security as about 500 delegates met in Kabul to work out a new constitution for Afghanistan. The meeting is seen as an important step towards stabilizing Afghanistan in the post-Taliban era.

Good Will shopping. Britain's Prince William invited reporters to join him as he walked down the street in the Scottish town of St. Andrews where he attends school. Royalty or not, his purchases seem typical enough for a college student. Milk, sweets, and snacks. And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: With President Bush getting a boost from the capture of Saddam Hussein, the Democratic candidates who hoped to unseat the president are weighing in. Their reactions so far? Praise for the capture but concern about the Bush administration's international policies. And today, that issue is in the spotlight on the campaign trail.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Like football players emerging from a pile-on...

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're all happy Saddam Hussein was captured.

BLITZER: Most Democratic candidates crowing over his capture, trying to claim credit for being behind the administration on Iraq. The pile on. Sunday's attacks on the front runner, Howard Dean. Joe Lieberman and John Kerry took pot shots for his consistent anti-war stance. Today, Kerry is more reserved, a little more.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It says we need an experienced hand as the nominee of our party, and we need an experienced person as president who really knows how to fight the war on terror more effectively.

BLITZER: In Los Angeles, Dean makes an international policy speech of his own, trying to move away from his dovish reputation.

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Our vigilance will extend on our attack and our most important challenge will be to address the catastrophic terrorism using weapons of mass destruction.

BLITZER: John Edwards joins the fray -- delivering you guessed it major foreign policy address in Des Moines.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is an important and historic opportunity, an opportunity to bring tolerance and freedom to the Middle East and to change course in Iraq.

BLITZER: From the Netherlands and the war crimes trial of another notorious dictator, Slobodan Milosevic, Wesley Clark jumps on the bandwagon but with caution.

WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the important thing is the United States consult broadly before the decision is made on how to try Saddam.

BLITZER: Not to be yet done, the best known noncandidate among the Democrats weighs in.

SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: We owe a great debt of gratitude to our troops, to our president, to our intelligence services to all who had a hand in apprehending Saddam.

BLITZER: It's clear Santa came early from the candidate who benefits most from the weekend's news.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein.

BLITZER: A former and fallen president lending unwitting support to the candidates on the trail.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Now, a big surprise for many of us in Washington. Today the Secretary of State Colin Powell over at the Walter Reed Medical Center in Washington recovering from surgery this morning for prostate cancer.

CNN's Jennifer Coggiola is here with more.

JENNIFER COGGIOLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, earlier today I spoke with a urologist at the Washington Hospital Center, who told me that prostate cancer is the second most common form of cancer, besides skin cancer for men. He also explained to me the wide variety of treatment, including what Secretary Powell underwent today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you feeling?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very good.

COGGIOLA (voice-over): It's been labeled the silent cancer for men because it has no symptoms.

DR. NABIL KHAWAND, WASHINGTON HOSPITAL CENTER: We had patients come late with prostate cancer and when they are late, there is little bit to do. Not much to do for those patients.

COGGIOLA: It affects nearly 200,000 men in the U.S. a year, mostly over the age of 50. In fact, in the U.S. 16 percent of men will be diagnosed in their lifetime, 8 percent will develop significant symptoms, and 3 percent will die. Treatment options vary according to several factors.

KHAWAND: We look at the patient's age. We look at the patient's medical status, performance status. We look at the cancer stage, OK and then we give the patient the option.

COGGIOLA: Including hormone therapy, radiation and, most common for healthy men in their 50s and 60s, surgery. As in Secretary Powell's case this morning, nearly four months after his diagnosis.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: He was able to pick a date in advance where nothing would have to be moved or changed or otherwise disrupted.

COGGIOLA: A luxury one can afford with this slow-growing cancer.

KHAWAND: The holidays. Want to wait a couple of months, nothing is going to happen within two months, especially if he has a good cancer or a low grade cancer.

COGGIOLA: Powell joins a list of other high profile men who have been diagnosed with prostate cancer, including General Norman Schwarzkopf, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani and former U.S. Senator Bob Dole. Because prostate cancer is called a unifocal cancer confined to one area, it offers the most hope.

KHAWAND: Those are the cancers that you do the best with and have the best cancer to have the longer life span free of cancer and back to normal life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COGGIOLA: Well, this afternoon the State Department reported that Secretary Powell's two-hour surgery went fine, and that he did, quote, extremely well, and he is expected to remain at Walter Reed Army Medical Center here in Washington for the next two to five days. He then will be on a reduced schedule for the next couple of weeks while he recovers.

BLITZER: And our wishes for a speedy recovery to the secretary of state. Thanks very much, Jennifer Coggiola, for that.

An interview with the dictator long before the latest war in Iraq. A veteran journalist left his anchor desk right here at CNN to sit down with Saddam Hussein. Bernard Shaw shares his experience in Baghdad. That's coming up.

And our "Picture of the Day" is a real record breaker. You can bet this book won't fit on the library shelves. We'll tell you what it is.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Earlier we asked, Saddam Hussein holds the key to which U.S. City? The answer, Detroit.

After donating hundreds of thousands of dollars to a Detroit church more than two decades ago, Saddam Hussein was presented a key to the city in 1980 by the Church's pastor.

My next guest is among the few western journalists who are interviewed Saddam Hussein. Bernard Shaw was an anchorman for CNN when he sat down with him in October 1990 after the invasion of Kuwait, but before the start of the first Gulf War. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) coverage of that conflict won numerous awards, including a coveted Peabody. Bernie Shaw is joining us now here in Washington. Bernie, thanks very much.

What was going through your mind as someone who's gone eyeball to eyeball with Saddam Hussein when you first heard about the capture, yesterday?

BERNARD SHAW, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: I got tense with anticipation and excitement. And my first question is, who? Who fingered Saddam Hussein? It had to be somebody very close to this man. Because we know he rarely slept in the same place over an eight-hour period. And he switched beds every night. We find out that somebody in his tribal clan fingered him and told U.S. intelligence people. And there's reason that some clan people would do that. Because here is a man who had his sons-in-law murdered. So, he obviously, irritated a lot of people. BLITZER: He didn't care about anyone, except himself. And you saw the picture. This is in marked contrast to the Saddam Hussein you sat down with at that palace.

SHAW: Look at the beard on this man. Look at the hair. Saddam preens like a peacock. In those days he did. That morning when he came in the palace for the interview that Richard Blystone and I did, every strand in his head was in place, manicured fingernails. And the one lasting physical impression I have of Saddam Hussein, this man has very, very soft hands.

BLITZER: You shook his hand. This is before he became totally paranoid. They didn't make you strip and wash like he did with so many other guests.

SHAW: Those were in the pre-paranoia days when the Iraqis actually told CNN that they wanted me to come over there and interview him. In those days, he wanted to project the image of being a statesman in small letters. And we were treated very respectfully. And it worked out very well.

BLITZER: The cleanliness, in such marked contrast to living in that hole in the ground, which we have, by now, all seen. One of the interesting, fascinating elements of your interview is when the translator seemed to have mistranslated a word.

SHAW: This man struck fear in everybody's heart.

BLITZER: Saddam Hussein?

SHAW: Saddam Hussein. At one point the translator garbled...

BLITZER: An Iraqi? An Iraqi?

SHAW: An Iraqi translator. He made a mistake. Saddam glared at him. And for the next 40 minutes of that interview, this man's writing hand trembled like that. Saddam, very crafty in that interview. At one point he tried to get me to agree with him against the president of the United States, very briefly. At one point in the interview he said, don't you agree that your president and I should have dialogue? I stopped. I looked at him, I looked at Blystone. I looked at the translator. Because it startled me. I knew what he was trying to do. And I just looked him in the eye. I said, Mr. President, I am not on your level, nor the level of the president of the United States. I am here to ask questions of you. And he bristled.

BLITZER: That translator who was shaking...

SHAW: That poor translator.

BLITZER: He thought his life was on the line.

SHAW: Absolutely.

BLITZER: ... because he mistranslated one word. It would have been nothing for Saddam Hussein to simply order his execution or imprisonment.

SHAW: Well, you remember the famous story of Saddam Hussein inviting his cabinet members to be very candid in their discussions about national affairs. Regrettably, one of the ministers took him at his word, spoke up and criticized one of Saddam's policy. Saddam said, that's interesting. Let's talk about this further. They went into a side room, closed the door. One gunshot was heard. The door opened. Saddam walked out.

BLITZER: Were you surprised that Saddam Hussein who had a pistol, didn't use it either to defend himself or to kill himself?

SHAW: Not really. The word you have to associate with him Saddam is that of survivor. Survivor, survive. Think back quickly. The sons, Uday and Qusay...

BLITZER: They went out in a blaze.

SHAW: Were they with their father when they were captured and shot to death in the shootout? No. He was a loner. That's why he was able to survive thus far.

BLITZER: The whole issue of Saddam Hussein now, how do you get this guy to crack and spill the beans? He's got a lot of very important information in his head.

SHAW: It might remain in his head. The fact of the matter is, there's historical factual record of people who were slaughtered, people were done wrongly by this man. And the documentation is there for evidence, for a show trial.

BLITZER: And -- but do you think this guy is going to try to have any semblance of dignity whatsoever, or is he just going to talk and try to save himself?

SHAW: Saddam Hussein always wanted to be the premiere leader, Arab leader, in the Middle East. He still thinks of himself that way. Watch him very closely as he comports himself in his trial, and you will see a man who wants to go out with some degree of regal stature, whatever that might be in his twisted mind.

BLITZER: And he does have a twisted mind. Going back to your interview. At one point, like he did with almost all of the guests that he received, he sought to intimidate you and to get you to -- to frighten you.

SHAW: Well, I'm a journalist. I've always been, as you with you, underwhelmed by people I've covered. And the same with Saddam Hussein. In the movie, "Live From Baghdad," former CNN executive producer Robert Weeder (ph), when he's putting the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) microphone on Saddam's tie says, "nice tie." He -- Bob said that. Robert said that.

BLITZER: To Saddam Hussein?

SHAW: To Saddam Hussein. (CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: ... in real life that happened?

SHAW: Yes. That happened in real life. So that would give you an indication of our attitude. We were respectful, because this was the head of government, but I wasn't overwhelmed by the man's presence. Yes, he did stare at me. But we were there to ask questions of him.

BLITZER: But you were never scared for your own -- as -- forget about the first night of the air war. Were you scared when you actually met Saddam Hussein?

SHAW: No. I was more impressed by the fear shown by his general officer corps. Four, three-star, four-star generals around him, when the motorcade came into the courtyard, motorcade of Mercedes Benz's, Saddam got out of the car, walked up on this sprawling red carpet, came into a hall. And these are four, three-star generals snapping to. They were so rigid, so tense that they teetered like wooden soldiers, an indication of fear that this man struck in the hearts and the minds of the people who were closest to him.

BLITZER: And the phrase "how the mighty have fallen" takes on a new meaning.

SHAW: Well, he fell from this throne of power into a rat hole, from which he was extracted.

BLITZER: You can only imagine how the president's father feels right now.

SHAW: Well, yes. And people forgot that George Walker Bush, president of the United States now, had ample visceral reason for going after this man. Remember...

BLITZER: In addition to the fact that he tried to kill his father.

SHAW: Precisely. And the one thing President Bush, the current president, always heard, even when he was governor of Texas, yes, we kicked him out of Kuwait, but your old man failed to get the job done. What President Bush led, what was done over the weekend, in his mind, constitutes having gotten the job done.

BLITZER: Bernie Shaw, good to have you back in the studio.

SHAW: It's always good to be back at my favorite network.

BLITZER: Will you come visit us often?

SHAW: Absolutely.

BLITZER: Thanks very much.

SHAW: Thank you for having me. BLITZER: No stranger to our viewers, Bernard Shaw.

The results of our Web question of the day, that's coming up. Do you think the U.S. should negotiate with Saddam Hussein? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: And now, here's a book for the record books. A big book about a small Asian country has been declared the world's largest. "Bhutan: A Visual Odyssey Across the Kingdom" is only 112 pages long, but each page is five feet by seven feet, to show off huge digital images. At 133 pounds, it is not what you'd call light reading.

But if you're still looking for holiday gifts, you can buy this one for a mere 10 grand.

That's our picture of the day.

Here's how you're weighing in on our Web question of the day. Look at this: Our Web question, should the U.S. negotiate with Saddam Hussein? Only 12 percent of you say yes. The majority, 88 percent, say no.

Remember, this is not a scientific poll.

We'll be back tomorrow, 5 p.m. Eastern, as well as noon Eastern, and "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 15, 2003 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Right now, dramatic new details emerging on the capture of Saddam Hussein. And what's in store for him in the weeks and months to come? Here's a hint: sleep deprivation.
Standby for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein.

BLITZER (voice-over): Will a public trial seal his fate?

Saddam speaks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is complying with the instructions and he is answering willingly the questions being asked of him.

BLITZER: We'll look at the latest intelligence.

The hole. We'll take you inside Saddam's last hideout.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT:: It's very difficult to get in, a little tough.

BLITZER: He went one on one with the dictator. I'll speak with one of our boys in Baghdad, Bernard Shaw.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Monday, December 15, 2003.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We're learning more about the capture of Saddam Hussein and his interrogation, but there's one big mystery: his whereabouts.

Saddam was taken first to Baghdad's International Airport. His current location is unknown. The ex-dictator is talking, but interrogators say it's more like he's trash-talking. His documents, though, are already paying off.

Saddam Hussein's capture has hardly broken the back, though, of the resistance. There were two deadly car bombings in the Baghdad area today. The targets: Iraqi police.

President Bush today vowed that Saddam Hussein will be put on trial and said it will be up to the Iraqis to decide if the former dictator should be executed.

Our reporters are standing by live with all the breaking details. Alphonso Van Marsh is in Saddam Hussein's hometown, Tikrit, where loyalties still run deep. Jane Arraf is in the Iraqi capital of Baghdad, where Iraqi insurgents have struck back. And Dana Bash is over at the White House, which is still glowing at Saddam's capture, but warning of difficulties ahead.

But we begin with Saddam Hussein's capture. This time, the inside story straight from the troops who carried out that historic raid near Tikrit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER (voice-over): A dictator on the run. Enemy soldiers closing in. Hardly new, but hardly normal either, despite one commander's understatement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To us, quite frankly, it was another raid.

BLITZER: Still, some bizarre circumstances around the capture of Saddam Hussein and new details of the operation emerging.

Colonel James Hickey, commander of the Raider Brigade of the U.S. Army's 4th Infantry Division. He says he knew who the target was Saturday night. His brigade and others had gone after Saddam at least a dozen times, but this night...

COL. JAMES HICKEY, U.S. ARMY: There was a good chance we would be successful because of the source of information.

BLITZER: After nightfall, 600 soldiers from the 4th Infantry and Special Forces sweep into the farm compound near a small village outside Tikrit. They find nothing at first. They come to a two-room hovel. In one room, two beds, books, clothes, fresh underwear still in its package. The other is a kitchen. Spam and Mars bars near the sink, rotting fruit on the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was very surprised how he was living, you know. Nobody expected him to be living like that.

BLITZER: Just outside those rooms, soldiers look around, one of them standing on a rug.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They didn't have a clue at the time, and then they moved it back, saw it, and heard noises in the bottom.

BLITZER: The soldiers pull up an 8" thick piece of Styrofoam and are about to execute a so-called clearing procedure, firing into the hole or dropping a grenade down. Someone sees upraised hands belonging to a tired, bedraggled and very wanted man.

He has a pistol. He doesn't use.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's when Saddam put his hands up and they assisted him out. BLITZER: In English, he says, "I am Saddam Hussein. I am the president of Iraq. I want to negotiate."

The soldiers reply, "President Bush sends his regards."

Outside, some members of the assault team still don't know who they have.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I couldn't really tell. I wouldn't have even known it was him. I was looking through a thermal imaging device.

BLITZER: Even back at a command post, senior officers need verification.

LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, CMDR. U.S. FORCES IN IRAQ: His two half-brothers had unhesitatingly identified him as Saddam, so we were pretty sure, but we needed to make sure that the Governing Council representatives believed that we had Saddam, and it was a very emotional meeting.

BLITZER: Later, Saddam drops the idea of negotiating and in his first interrogation, says a senior U.S. official, he is, quote, "a wise ass."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson visited the site of Saddam Hussein's capture and went inside the so- called spider hole where Saddam was hiding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: This tiny hole is really small inside. It's concrete mud on the floors. A wood (UNINTELLIGIBLE) here, wood around the top of the frame. It's very difficult to get in and out of. It wouldn't have been easy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: An amazing inside look. Nic's full report, something you will want to see. That's coming up later this hour. Really an amazing, amazing adventure.

Meanwhile, let's check in on the situation in Tikrit right now. Saddam Hussein's hometown, near the scene of his capture.

CNN's Alphonso Van Marsh is standing by live -- Alphonso.

ALPHONSO VAN MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf.

Also here on the scene are a lot of the very U.S. service members who actually took part in that ride. There's still a lot of buzz of that going on today, some troops calling it the day after the day after.

Over the weekend, we saw a lot of those U.S. military issued photos of the former Iraqi leader getting a medical check, and as you mentioned he is now in an undisclosed location.

Now the leading officer, Colonel James Hickey, as you mentioned, who led that raid, had a chance to go on back down to that area, about 30 miles south of Tikrit, and was showing reporters our first opportunity to see that small hole in the ground where the former Iraqi leader was pulled out by U.S. troops over the weekend.

Also interesting is the U.S. colonel says that it's a great sense of accomplishment, knowing that they were able to catch Saddam Hussein, but he said that he had a lot of work to do here still, and certainly one of those places where he'll have to do a lot of work is right behind me, here in downtown Tikrit.

Interesting thing, there are some protests, where some protesters supporting Saddam Hussein actually clashed with U.S. troops today -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Alphonso Van Marsh with the latest from Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's hometown.

So far, Saddam Hussein's capture has not diminished the violence in Iraq. Our Baghdad bureau chief Jane Arraf is standing by now, live, with details of new attacks in the Iraqi capital -- Jane.

JANE ARRAF, CNN IRAQ BUREAU CHIEF: Wolf, you're right. That violence has continued, this time at Iraqi police stations, which have become a favorite target.

Two car bombs resulting in at least six police officers dead and several more wounded.

But the capture of Saddam, according to military officials here, has already started paying off. They found in papers in his briefcase information that led them to at least two suspects here, one of them, they say, could be behind some of the attacks on U.S. forces here in the capital -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Is there a sense of relief in Baghdad, or is there still a great sense of nervousness that more of these attacks are on the way?

ARRAF: There is really a nervousness, a sense that perhaps things are still hanging in the balance and it could go either way, and we have to make clear that while there was some celebration over Saddam's capture, it was not universal. There were also demonstrations actually in support of Saddam, some of these people refusing to believe that that man who they saw, who looked so different from the leader they knew, was actually him -- Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Jane Arraf, our Baghdad bureau chief. Jane, thank you very much.

Here's your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our Web question of the day is this: should the United States negotiate with Saddam Hussein? You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results later in this broadcast. While you're there, I'd love to hear directly from you. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also where you can read my daily online column, CNN.com/wolf.

Captured in a dirt hole outside Tikrit, we get an in-depth look at Saddam Hussein's hiding place. You'll want to see this.

And President Bush has a few choice words for the deposed Iraqi leader.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein. I find it very interesting that when the heat got on, you dug yourself a hole.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So now that the United States has Saddam Hussein, how will it bring him to justice? We're live at the White House with details.

And few Western journalists have ever met the former Iraqi president face to face. My former colleague was one of them, Bernard Shaw. He will join us live with his reflections on all these dramatic developments.

First, though, our NEWS BLITZ.

Saddam Hussein holds the key to which U.S. city: Boston, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago. The answer coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: President Bush made it clear today the former dictator's fate will be in the hands of Iraqis.

Let's go live to our White House correspondent Dana Bash. She's standing by with the latest -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the president said he wants Iraqis heavily involved in bringing Saddam Hussein to justice, but the administration assumes he'll be in U.S. custody for at least six months, until Iraqis gain sovereignty of their country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): The president's press conference was 46 minutes, but there was no mistaking the headline: his message for Saddam Hussein.

BUSH: Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein. I find it very interesting that when the heat got on, you dug yourself a hole and you crawled in it. BASH: The administration plans to hold Saddam Hussein in U.S. custody until sovereignty is transferred to Iraqis. Eventually, Mr. Bush said, the former Iraqi leader should be tried in a manner that stands up to international scrutiny, but emphasized Iraqis should play a large role in the process.

BUSH: He murdered them. He gassed them. He tortured them. He had rape rooms. And they need to be very much involved in the process.

BASH: The president refused to say if he thinks Saddam Hussein should be executed, but his non-answer provided more than a clue.

BUSH: I have my own personal views, and this is a brutal dictator. He's a person who killed a lot of people.

BASH: Mr. Bush maintained a cautious demeanor, warning the violence is likely to continue. But he did express hope undecided Iraqis will now support the developing new government.

For the Bush family, the capture is personal. Saddam Hussein allegedly plotted to kill the first President Bush, who faced him down during the first Gulf War. One of the president's initial phone calls after the arrest was from his father.

BUSH: It was a very brief conversation. He just said congratulations, this is a great day for the country. And I said it's a greater day for the Iraqi people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: The Bush administration believes Saddam Hussein was probably too isolated to be directing the attacks against U.S. and coalition targets, and the $750,000 found with him was likely to pay people off to hide him -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Dana Bash, at the White House with the latest. Thanks, Dana, very much.

Reaction to the capture of Saddam Hussein continues to pour in. We have reports from Robin Oakley in Britain, Jim Bittermann in France and John Vause in the Middle East.

We begin with CNN's European political editor, Robin Oakley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN EUROPEAN POLITICAL EDITOR: Britain's media has gone to town on the capture of Saddam Hussein with plenty of triumphalism, but Mr. Blair's note has been far more cautious, stressing peace and reconciliation and new opportunities for Iraq. His problem is that he took the country to war to get rid of weapons of mass destruction. What he needs is to find those weapons of mass destruction rather than a disheveled ex-dictator.

Robin Oakley, CNN, London. JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The French were against the war, but they were never for Saddam Hussein, and the headlines in the paper today sort of reflect that. The very popular newspaper "La Parisienne" just had the headline "Captured" and the photo that was seen everywhere around the world today, and "Liberacion," another newspaper, had the headline "Finis." That probably needs no explanation.

Analysts here today were trying to figure out exactly what the capture of Saddam Hussein might mean for relations between France and Iraq and also between France and Europe and the United States, and at least one said that perhaps it could lead to some warming of relations, because for once the Europeans had been shown by the United States that the United States had gotten it right in Iraq. And also, this presented a window of opportunity because it was something that everybody could agree on.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Israelis have described the capture of Saddam Hussein as a moment in history when good conquers evil. There is also relief here that the man who fired SCUD missiles at this country during the 1991 Gulf War and more recently spent millions of dollars financing Palestinian militants is now in U.S. custody.

But for some Palestinians, Saddam Hussein was a hero and for the second day on the streets of Gaza a small number of Palestinians mourned his capture. But there is now a debate in Israel. Is this country safer for Saddam's demise? Some security officials say yes, but others fear those pictures of Saddam Hussein being poked and prodded will only arouse Arab anger, which will ultimately be directed towards Israel.

John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: What was it like down in the hole where Saddam Hussein was living? CNN's Nic Robertson walks you through the former dictator's last hiding place.

Then, does the capture of Saddam Hussein show that the new U.S. intelligence system is indeed working? Hear what the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee thinks.

And a one on one with Saddam Hussein. Few journalists have met the man. Our former CNN anchor Bernard Shaw is one of them. Hear his thoughts. He'll join me live. All of that, that's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Let's go now to Saddam Hussein's last hideout, that miserable hut near his hometown of Tikrit and that tiny hole in the ground, a world away from his marble palaces.

Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson takes us on an extraordinary tour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: This bridge leads down to the Tigris River. This is a pomegranate and orange orchard. And this is a small compound Saddam Hussein was living in. This is the kitchen here, a sink over here, medicine, Mars bars, a flashlight, a cap, rotting bananas. The place looks like a mess, not the sort of place you would expect to see a former president living in. Tins of Spam in the cupboard there.

And around this way, walking around the corner, behind the mud wall, a box of oranges lying on the floor, already beginning to rot, a pot of water here. The bedroom in here, two beds. And inside the bedroom a refrigerator, the heater. On the wall, posters. A Christian poster, Noah's Ark. The bed, crumpled bed clothing. Fresh, clean pair of boxer shorts, unused, still new. Another bed. A box full of clothes, a few books.

On the bookcase here, pictures, brand new frames, but nothing in the frames. No pictures to be spoken of. And down here, a pair of shoes, unused, some water, tracksuit bottoms. Just chaos. Not the conditions you'd really expect the former Iraqi leader to be living in.

This tiny hole is really small inside. It's concrete mud on the walls. A wood (UNINTELLIGIBLE) here. Wood around the top of the frame. It's very difficult to get in and out of. It wouldn't have been easy for the soldiers who discovered Saddam Hussein. He came with his hands up. He said, "I'm Saddam Hussein. I'm the president of Iraq and I want to negotiate."

To which the troops, we are told, responded, "President Bush sends his regards."

After that, Saddam Hussein was whisked out of the hole, pulled up, and taken away to a helicopter waiting in the field just across here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: CNN's Nic Robertson with a truly, truly amazing story.

Arrogance and attitude, that's all Saddam Hussein is reportedly giving investigators. Will he talk, though? What will he say? How can he be made to talk?

And Secretary of State Colin Powell's fight. He undergoes surgery today. We'll have a live report.

13 years later, he's one of the few who interviewed Saddam Hussein. So what's the journalist Bernard Shaw's take on his capture? I'll speak with Bernie later this hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN. What information could Saddam Hussein have for the United States government? And how will interrogators get it out of him? We'll get to all of that.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

(NEWSBREAK)

BLITZER: Will Saddam Hussein come clean? The ex-dictator is already getting the third degree from U.S. investigators.

Representative Porter Goss of Florida is the chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. Just a short time ago, I asked for his take on the capture of Saddam Hussein.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Mr. Chairman, thanks very much for joining us.

A lot of people don't understand your responsibility overseeing the intelligence community. When did you learn that Saddam Hussein looked like he had been captured?

REP. PORTER GOSS (R), HOUSE INTELLIGENCE CHAIR: Well, actually I found out Saturday evening. I was tipped off that this may be a possibility, and it was verified Sunday morning.

BLITZER: You used to work at the CIA, so you know the old fashioned intelligence. In this instance, human intelligence sources really helped pave the way. It wasn't some fancy high-tech spy in the sky kind of gadgetry.

GOSS: Wolf, exactly what happened here is that the intelligence community did its job in every aspect. It was team play. Everybody played their part. The analysts did a great job. They were forward leaning. The people who had to fill in the gaps in the information did a great job of being innovative and creative.

The action element, the people that actually went out and investigated this farm house, used creativity and ingenuity plus the information they had, and everybody made good decisions. They're well-trained people and finally we're yielding the harvest of all of the hard work and the patience that we've had to exercise going through a very complicated process.

BLITZER: All right, so what do you do now if you're in the United States intelligence community? You have Saddam Hussein. What do you do with him?

GOSS: Well, the first thing that you look at Saddam Hussein as, from the intelligence point of view, is a potential source of information. So you have professional interrogation and you realize the guy is very good at deception and denial and disinformation. But you also know that no matter who it is, that you might be able to get a piece of information here or glean something there or trick him on an item there that could lead to some more useful things. So it's worth the effort to have the interrogation, and Lord knows we have plenty of questions to ask him about the terrorist network, how they operate in Iraq, weapons of mass destruction and other things that have been very much on our mind.

BLITZER: This interrogation could go on for weeks and months before there is any trial.

GOSS: That's very possible if you just think of the discovery process in a trial in this country and how long that can take, you can think how long it might take to do the interrogation of Saddam.

BLITZER: Should the U.S. be willing to give some sort of mercy to Saddam Hussein if he does cooperate in spilling the beans about weapons of mass destruction, for example?

GOSS: I would not be the one doing the plea bargaining on this, if that's what you're suggesting. My view is that the information and acquisition process ought to be entirely different from the judicial process of judging Saddam for his past sins and crimes and I will leave that to the people who are going to do it. I don't know whether we can find a way to get a lift out of the information gathering process, but I would suggest that a professional interrogation will do everything it can to make all the news come forth.

BLITZER: Should there be physical pressure, sleep deprivation, loud music, loud noise, to try to get Saddam Hussein to crack?

GOSS: I think that Saddam should be treated as a hard case interrogee (sic). I think that means he will be interrogated using all of the in bounds allowed methods. Those are methods that I think you would consider proper under the circumstances.

We would certainly not step over the line and create anything that would, I think, go beyond the bounds of the norms of interrogation under this type of a combat situation. But there are a lot of psychological impacts that can be brought to bear that are well within bounds that are not torture.

BLITZER: A few examples.

GOSS: Sleep deprivation is one.

BLITZER: You just keep him awake for hours -- let him sleep for a few minutes then you wake him up.

GOSS: You ask any mother or father of a new child in this country about sleep deprivation and they can tell you something about sleep deprivation. It does put you off your mark a little bit and yet, it's not torture. It's just -- you are not operating at your best.

BLITZER: All the intelligence briefings you had going into the capture of Saddam Hussein, did you ever think -- was the assessment there that he was going to simply give up or he would go down in a blaze of fire? GOSS: I think that the most important thing that has come out of this is the absolute destruction of a macho image of Saddam Hussein. He is not the lion of Mesopotamia. He is not even a worthwhile leader. He is a coward seen hiding in his little hole coming meekly out.

That's not the image the followers of Saddam wanted. They have no place to go now. This is a huge breakthrough of the myth of the power of Saddam. He was brutal, he was ruthless, he killed without mercy. All of those things are true but his power was very thin. It was based on a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that has now been disrupted and there's no reason for people anymore to fear him or try and emulate him.

BLITZER: One final question. Osama bin Laden. How close do you believe the U.S. is to finding him?

GOSS: I think that it's a very complicated task. Again, we are looking for holes in hills here instead of holes in deserts to find him but we'll find his (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hole and I believe we will get it done. It will require good information and good team play that's on going. I'm confident we'll get there.

BLITZER: Porter Goss, thanks very much for joining us.

GOSS: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Well, so far it seems all Saddam Hussein is giving up is attitude. Joining us now is our national security correspondent David Ensor. You've been checking in to all of this, what are you finding out?

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, so far what we know is that again today, Wolf, he was interviewed, interrogated by U.S. military and intelligence officials. In the first such questioning yesterday, the former Iraqi leader was defiant, he was quite ready to talk but he offered no new information. He was, as one senior U.S. official put it to me, quote, a "wise-ass."

For example, sources say Saddam has denied having any hidden prisoners. Not Americans, Kuwaitis or Iranians, although he is known to have had some of the latter. He has denied having any ties with terrorists and he's denied having any weapons of mass destruction programs although the CIA's David Kay has found evidence that such programs did continue.

U.S. officials say the initial questioning is focusing mainly on the insurgency attacks against American forces. Is there anything that can be learned from Saddam that might save some lives? On that no one is particularly optimistic but they do feel it needs to be tried.

Over at the CIA today, Wolf, directors George Tenet and others met about the hunt in Iraq for weapons of mass destruction. That search has so far found no weapons and while officials say they are not holding their breath for Saddam to reveal all about WMD, they are at least hopeful that with his capture perhaps other Iraqi scientists who were involved in the programs may feel no longer fearful and able to tell what they know.

BLITZER: It might embolden them, encourage them to come out finally and talk. David Ensor, thanks very much for that report.

The secretary of state's surgery. The latest on Colin Powell's fight with prostate cancer and how he's faring. He underwent surgery earlier today. Also, what treatments are there besides surgery? We'll have a live report.

Plus this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The tragedy by our actions, our unilateralism, and our ill-considered war in Iraq is that we have empowered radicals and weakened moderates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Howard Dean on the defensive after Saddam Hussein's capture. Some are saying the presidential front runner's chances next year look bleak. Others disagree. Today, he counters the critics.

And a sit-down with Saddam Hussein more than a decade ago. I'll speak live with one of CNN's boys of Baghdad, Bernard Shaw. He'll be here. First, though, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): On the stand. Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark was in The Netherlands today to testify at the war crimes trial of former Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic. Clark was supreme NATO commander in 1999 when NATO bombed Serbia.

Constitutional convention. International peacekeepers provided security as about 500 delegates met in Kabul to work out a new constitution for Afghanistan. The meeting is seen as an important step towards stabilizing Afghanistan in the post-Taliban era.

Good Will shopping. Britain's Prince William invited reporters to join him as he walked down the street in the Scottish town of St. Andrews where he attends school. Royalty or not, his purchases seem typical enough for a college student. Milk, sweets, and snacks. And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: With President Bush getting a boost from the capture of Saddam Hussein, the Democratic candidates who hoped to unseat the president are weighing in. Their reactions so far? Praise for the capture but concern about the Bush administration's international policies. And today, that issue is in the spotlight on the campaign trail.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Like football players emerging from a pile-on...

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're all happy Saddam Hussein was captured.

BLITZER: Most Democratic candidates crowing over his capture, trying to claim credit for being behind the administration on Iraq. The pile on. Sunday's attacks on the front runner, Howard Dean. Joe Lieberman and John Kerry took pot shots for his consistent anti-war stance. Today, Kerry is more reserved, a little more.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It says we need an experienced hand as the nominee of our party, and we need an experienced person as president who really knows how to fight the war on terror more effectively.

BLITZER: In Los Angeles, Dean makes an international policy speech of his own, trying to move away from his dovish reputation.

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Our vigilance will extend on our attack and our most important challenge will be to address the catastrophic terrorism using weapons of mass destruction.

BLITZER: John Edwards joins the fray -- delivering you guessed it major foreign policy address in Des Moines.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is an important and historic opportunity, an opportunity to bring tolerance and freedom to the Middle East and to change course in Iraq.

BLITZER: From the Netherlands and the war crimes trial of another notorious dictator, Slobodan Milosevic, Wesley Clark jumps on the bandwagon but with caution.

WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the important thing is the United States consult broadly before the decision is made on how to try Saddam.

BLITZER: Not to be yet done, the best known noncandidate among the Democrats weighs in.

SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: We owe a great debt of gratitude to our troops, to our president, to our intelligence services to all who had a hand in apprehending Saddam.

BLITZER: It's clear Santa came early from the candidate who benefits most from the weekend's news.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein.

BLITZER: A former and fallen president lending unwitting support to the candidates on the trail.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Now, a big surprise for many of us in Washington. Today the Secretary of State Colin Powell over at the Walter Reed Medical Center in Washington recovering from surgery this morning for prostate cancer.

CNN's Jennifer Coggiola is here with more.

JENNIFER COGGIOLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, earlier today I spoke with a urologist at the Washington Hospital Center, who told me that prostate cancer is the second most common form of cancer, besides skin cancer for men. He also explained to me the wide variety of treatment, including what Secretary Powell underwent today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you feeling?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very good.

COGGIOLA (voice-over): It's been labeled the silent cancer for men because it has no symptoms.

DR. NABIL KHAWAND, WASHINGTON HOSPITAL CENTER: We had patients come late with prostate cancer and when they are late, there is little bit to do. Not much to do for those patients.

COGGIOLA: It affects nearly 200,000 men in the U.S. a year, mostly over the age of 50. In fact, in the U.S. 16 percent of men will be diagnosed in their lifetime, 8 percent will develop significant symptoms, and 3 percent will die. Treatment options vary according to several factors.

KHAWAND: We look at the patient's age. We look at the patient's medical status, performance status. We look at the cancer stage, OK and then we give the patient the option.

COGGIOLA: Including hormone therapy, radiation and, most common for healthy men in their 50s and 60s, surgery. As in Secretary Powell's case this morning, nearly four months after his diagnosis.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: He was able to pick a date in advance where nothing would have to be moved or changed or otherwise disrupted.

COGGIOLA: A luxury one can afford with this slow-growing cancer.

KHAWAND: The holidays. Want to wait a couple of months, nothing is going to happen within two months, especially if he has a good cancer or a low grade cancer.

COGGIOLA: Powell joins a list of other high profile men who have been diagnosed with prostate cancer, including General Norman Schwarzkopf, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani and former U.S. Senator Bob Dole. Because prostate cancer is called a unifocal cancer confined to one area, it offers the most hope.

KHAWAND: Those are the cancers that you do the best with and have the best cancer to have the longer life span free of cancer and back to normal life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COGGIOLA: Well, this afternoon the State Department reported that Secretary Powell's two-hour surgery went fine, and that he did, quote, extremely well, and he is expected to remain at Walter Reed Army Medical Center here in Washington for the next two to five days. He then will be on a reduced schedule for the next couple of weeks while he recovers.

BLITZER: And our wishes for a speedy recovery to the secretary of state. Thanks very much, Jennifer Coggiola, for that.

An interview with the dictator long before the latest war in Iraq. A veteran journalist left his anchor desk right here at CNN to sit down with Saddam Hussein. Bernard Shaw shares his experience in Baghdad. That's coming up.

And our "Picture of the Day" is a real record breaker. You can bet this book won't fit on the library shelves. We'll tell you what it is.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Earlier we asked, Saddam Hussein holds the key to which U.S. City? The answer, Detroit.

After donating hundreds of thousands of dollars to a Detroit church more than two decades ago, Saddam Hussein was presented a key to the city in 1980 by the Church's pastor.

My next guest is among the few western journalists who are interviewed Saddam Hussein. Bernard Shaw was an anchorman for CNN when he sat down with him in October 1990 after the invasion of Kuwait, but before the start of the first Gulf War. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) coverage of that conflict won numerous awards, including a coveted Peabody. Bernie Shaw is joining us now here in Washington. Bernie, thanks very much.

What was going through your mind as someone who's gone eyeball to eyeball with Saddam Hussein when you first heard about the capture, yesterday?

BERNARD SHAW, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: I got tense with anticipation and excitement. And my first question is, who? Who fingered Saddam Hussein? It had to be somebody very close to this man. Because we know he rarely slept in the same place over an eight-hour period. And he switched beds every night. We find out that somebody in his tribal clan fingered him and told U.S. intelligence people. And there's reason that some clan people would do that. Because here is a man who had his sons-in-law murdered. So, he obviously, irritated a lot of people. BLITZER: He didn't care about anyone, except himself. And you saw the picture. This is in marked contrast to the Saddam Hussein you sat down with at that palace.

SHAW: Look at the beard on this man. Look at the hair. Saddam preens like a peacock. In those days he did. That morning when he came in the palace for the interview that Richard Blystone and I did, every strand in his head was in place, manicured fingernails. And the one lasting physical impression I have of Saddam Hussein, this man has very, very soft hands.

BLITZER: You shook his hand. This is before he became totally paranoid. They didn't make you strip and wash like he did with so many other guests.

SHAW: Those were in the pre-paranoia days when the Iraqis actually told CNN that they wanted me to come over there and interview him. In those days, he wanted to project the image of being a statesman in small letters. And we were treated very respectfully. And it worked out very well.

BLITZER: The cleanliness, in such marked contrast to living in that hole in the ground, which we have, by now, all seen. One of the interesting, fascinating elements of your interview is when the translator seemed to have mistranslated a word.

SHAW: This man struck fear in everybody's heart.

BLITZER: Saddam Hussein?

SHAW: Saddam Hussein. At one point the translator garbled...

BLITZER: An Iraqi? An Iraqi?

SHAW: An Iraqi translator. He made a mistake. Saddam glared at him. And for the next 40 minutes of that interview, this man's writing hand trembled like that. Saddam, very crafty in that interview. At one point he tried to get me to agree with him against the president of the United States, very briefly. At one point in the interview he said, don't you agree that your president and I should have dialogue? I stopped. I looked at him, I looked at Blystone. I looked at the translator. Because it startled me. I knew what he was trying to do. And I just looked him in the eye. I said, Mr. President, I am not on your level, nor the level of the president of the United States. I am here to ask questions of you. And he bristled.

BLITZER: That translator who was shaking...

SHAW: That poor translator.

BLITZER: He thought his life was on the line.

SHAW: Absolutely.

BLITZER: ... because he mistranslated one word. It would have been nothing for Saddam Hussein to simply order his execution or imprisonment.

SHAW: Well, you remember the famous story of Saddam Hussein inviting his cabinet members to be very candid in their discussions about national affairs. Regrettably, one of the ministers took him at his word, spoke up and criticized one of Saddam's policy. Saddam said, that's interesting. Let's talk about this further. They went into a side room, closed the door. One gunshot was heard. The door opened. Saddam walked out.

BLITZER: Were you surprised that Saddam Hussein who had a pistol, didn't use it either to defend himself or to kill himself?

SHAW: Not really. The word you have to associate with him Saddam is that of survivor. Survivor, survive. Think back quickly. The sons, Uday and Qusay...

BLITZER: They went out in a blaze.

SHAW: Were they with their father when they were captured and shot to death in the shootout? No. He was a loner. That's why he was able to survive thus far.

BLITZER: The whole issue of Saddam Hussein now, how do you get this guy to crack and spill the beans? He's got a lot of very important information in his head.

SHAW: It might remain in his head. The fact of the matter is, there's historical factual record of people who were slaughtered, people were done wrongly by this man. And the documentation is there for evidence, for a show trial.

BLITZER: And -- but do you think this guy is going to try to have any semblance of dignity whatsoever, or is he just going to talk and try to save himself?

SHAW: Saddam Hussein always wanted to be the premiere leader, Arab leader, in the Middle East. He still thinks of himself that way. Watch him very closely as he comports himself in his trial, and you will see a man who wants to go out with some degree of regal stature, whatever that might be in his twisted mind.

BLITZER: And he does have a twisted mind. Going back to your interview. At one point, like he did with almost all of the guests that he received, he sought to intimidate you and to get you to -- to frighten you.

SHAW: Well, I'm a journalist. I've always been, as you with you, underwhelmed by people I've covered. And the same with Saddam Hussein. In the movie, "Live From Baghdad," former CNN executive producer Robert Weeder (ph), when he's putting the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) microphone on Saddam's tie says, "nice tie." He -- Bob said that. Robert said that.

BLITZER: To Saddam Hussein?

SHAW: To Saddam Hussein. (CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: ... in real life that happened?

SHAW: Yes. That happened in real life. So that would give you an indication of our attitude. We were respectful, because this was the head of government, but I wasn't overwhelmed by the man's presence. Yes, he did stare at me. But we were there to ask questions of him.

BLITZER: But you were never scared for your own -- as -- forget about the first night of the air war. Were you scared when you actually met Saddam Hussein?

SHAW: No. I was more impressed by the fear shown by his general officer corps. Four, three-star, four-star generals around him, when the motorcade came into the courtyard, motorcade of Mercedes Benz's, Saddam got out of the car, walked up on this sprawling red carpet, came into a hall. And these are four, three-star generals snapping to. They were so rigid, so tense that they teetered like wooden soldiers, an indication of fear that this man struck in the hearts and the minds of the people who were closest to him.

BLITZER: And the phrase "how the mighty have fallen" takes on a new meaning.

SHAW: Well, he fell from this throne of power into a rat hole, from which he was extracted.

BLITZER: You can only imagine how the president's father feels right now.

SHAW: Well, yes. And people forgot that George Walker Bush, president of the United States now, had ample visceral reason for going after this man. Remember...

BLITZER: In addition to the fact that he tried to kill his father.

SHAW: Precisely. And the one thing President Bush, the current president, always heard, even when he was governor of Texas, yes, we kicked him out of Kuwait, but your old man failed to get the job done. What President Bush led, what was done over the weekend, in his mind, constitutes having gotten the job done.

BLITZER: Bernie Shaw, good to have you back in the studio.

SHAW: It's always good to be back at my favorite network.

BLITZER: Will you come visit us often?

SHAW: Absolutely.

BLITZER: Thanks very much.

SHAW: Thank you for having me. BLITZER: No stranger to our viewers, Bernard Shaw.

The results of our Web question of the day, that's coming up. Do you think the U.S. should negotiate with Saddam Hussein? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: And now, here's a book for the record books. A big book about a small Asian country has been declared the world's largest. "Bhutan: A Visual Odyssey Across the Kingdom" is only 112 pages long, but each page is five feet by seven feet, to show off huge digital images. At 133 pounds, it is not what you'd call light reading.

But if you're still looking for holiday gifts, you can buy this one for a mere 10 grand.

That's our picture of the day.

Here's how you're weighing in on our Web question of the day. Look at this: Our Web question, should the U.S. negotiate with Saddam Hussein? Only 12 percent of you say yes. The majority, 88 percent, say no.

Remember, this is not a scientific poll.

We'll be back tomorrow, 5 p.m. Eastern, as well as noon Eastern, and "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

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