Return to Transcripts main page
PAULA ZAHN NOW
Saddam Captured: What's Next?; Interview With Richard Armitage; Two Men Sentenced for Beating Child in Bible Class
Aired December 16, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, HOST: In focus tonight, Saddam Hussein. What does his capture mean? We'll ask Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage about the administration's direction now.
Newly revealed details of a plot to kill Saddam Hussein, and why it failed.
And two men sentenced to hard time for beating a child in the last place you'd expect, their Bible class.
And good evening and welcome. Thanks for joining us tonight.
Also ahead, here are some of the stories you need to know right now.
The jury in the trial of sniper suspect Lee Boyd Malvo is to begin deliberating tomorrow. Jurors got the case today after closing argument in which a defense lawyer says Malvo's confession to police is not believable. The lead prosecutor told jurors to see through the smokescreen of Malvo's insanity defense.
President Bush says Saddam Hussein should face the ultimate penalty after he's tried in Iraq. In an interview with ABC News, Bush called Saddam, quote, "a disgusting tyrant who deserves justice." He calls Saddam's capture "a joyous moment for the Iraqi people."
And U.S. officials now say American troops captured 74 Iraqis near Tikrit today, among them a terrorist cell leader who the U.S. says has been bankrolling attacks on coalition forces.
Also in Iraq today, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Richard Myers said U.S. troops would remain in Iraq for two years or more.
Well, now that Saddam Hussein is in custody and talking, the issue of what will happen next in Iraq is becoming a number-one priority for Washington, and countries that opposed that war.
That is in focus tonight, and we get more now from State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For presidential envoy James Baker, who came face to face with two of the war's most vocal critics, day one of his diplomatic mission to ease an estimated $100 to $130 billion in Iraqi debt was a good one.
German Chancellor Schroeder said he was confident an agreement could be reached. Germany and France, whose president also met with Baker, are among Iraq's biggest creditors. In a joint statement, the three governments agreed to "substantial debt reduction in 2004," noting that the "exact percentage is subject to future agreement."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clearly James Baker was a very palatable envoy for them.
KOPPEL: But analysts also cite the capture of Saddam Hussein and the timing of Baker's mission after months of acrimony as reasons for the Franco-German change of heart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are now willing and ready to reach out to the United States in general to try to put this horrible division behind us.
KOPPEL: That despite a recent Pentagon memo limiting more than $18 billion in Iraqi contracts to coalition partners, effectively excluding countries like Germany and France, which opposed the war.
RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: We're more hopeful that people will step forward.
KOPPEL (on camera): Administration officials have signaled flexibility on future reconstruction contracts in Iraq, saying the list is not set in stone.
As for Baker, his next big hurdle, convincing Russia to follow the French and German lead.
Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.
ZAHN: We're going to stay with the issue now. Earlier I spoke with Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. He is the number two man at the State Department. And I started off by asking how Secretary Powell is doing after prostate cancer surgery.
RICHARD ARMITAGE, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I got two calls from him before 7:00 a.m. And I've had another one since. So he's right as rain.
ZAHN: Has this health scare made the secretary reassess how long he might stay in the post?
ARMITAGE: Not at all. And it wasn't a scare. He's known about it for some time. He chose this time deliberately, hoping that it would be a low time in the season. And as he said, he serves at the pleasure of the president and will continue to do so.
ZAHN: So you can't see any situation where any ongoing treatment he might have to have will impact on his job? ARMITAGE: I think he's in very good shape. When these holidays are over, he'll be back. And if it's any indication, the way he's been dealing with me today, he's back already.
ZAHN: Has he given you a hard time?
ARMITAGE: I wouldn't say it's a hard time, we're too good of friends for that. But he's inquisitive, and he does like answers.
ZAHN: Well, let's...
ARMITAGE: He was a general, and 35 years in the military makes someone like that.
ZAHN: Absolutely. And I know you're used to answering the questions as well.
Let's talk a little bit more about the raid that netted the capture of Saddam Hussein. What went through your mind the first time you saw the videotape of the rather pathetic and undignified-looking Saddam Hussein in U.S. custody?
ARMITAGE: I thought to myself that here's a fellow who had sent thousands and thousands of young men to their deaths, both in wars with Iran and the invasion of Kuwait, and the subsequent battles with the United States, and yet he gave up without a fight, and looked like the bum he was.
ZAHN: So is he the ultimate coward, in your judgment?
ARMITAGE: Well, I think you have to consider someone who sacrifices to the last citizen, and he himself gives up meekly, would have to be considered an ultimate coward.
ZAHN: Did you expect him to give himself up alive?
ARMITAGE: No, I thought he wouldn't. I didn't think he would subject himself to the humiliation.
ZAHN: Why do you think he did?
ARMITAGE: Clearly he's more afraid of dying than he is of living in humiliation.
ZAHN: Can you characterize for us what we've learned so far from him?
ARMITAGE: I would like to say that those who speculate about what he's saying don't know, and those who do know are not speculating. So I think because of the need to check everything out, to follow up all the leads that have been gained by this capture, public officials need to be quiet about it.
ZAHN: So there's nothing you can tell us about any leads you've gotten, now that Saddam Hussein is in custody?
ARMITAGE: There is nothing.
ZAHN: Nothing that you can share with us. There are leads, but you don't want to share with us?
ARMITAGE: Well, there's nothing that I want to share with you.
ZAHN: OK, I understand that.
ARMITAGE: Nothing personal.
ZAHN: OK, I won't take it personally.
Let's talk about just how remarkable this raid was. We know that really superb intelligence ultimately led U.S. troops to Saddam Hussein. Did luck play any role in his capture?
ARMITAGE: You know, Napoleon said that he'd much rather have lucky generals than smart ones, and I think every general officer will tell you will tell you, and every officer in the world would tell you that luck always plays a part.
My understanding is that on occasion we had been somewhat close to Saddam Hussein, and had just not quite pulled it off. This time we were both smart and lucky.
ZAHN: All right, sir. Final question for you. According to reports, the Department of State, including the secretary of state, were among the last in the administration to find out about the capture of Saddam Hussein. Was your department sidelined?
ARMITAGE: Well, I don't know, I think Secretary Powell was called in pretty good order. Certainly the president needs to know first, the national security adviser, but my understanding was that shortly after that, Secretary Powell was informed, and he informed me. So I wouldn't say we were sidelined at all.
This is, in the main, an intelligence and a military show. And when we need to know something, we get the information.
ZAHN: There is a constant patter about a lot of tension between the Pentagon and the State Department. Describe to us tonight what you think that relationship is.
ARMITAGE: Well, I think there's always tension. I served with Cap Weinberger and George Schulz, and if you want to talk about tension, you ought to talk about those days.
I think the American public is served well by a certain amount of creative tension, which makes sure that all issues are exposed to the president. I think in the wake of the war in Iraq, and given the enormity of the reconstruction efforts that we're involved with, that actually relationships have gotten quite a bit better.
ZAHN: So you don't see the State Department in any way being undercut by the Pentagon? ARMITAGE: Oh, listen, everybody's always saying that someone's undercut around here. We come in to work every day, put on our packs, and hump throughout the whole day just like our colleagues at Defense and National Security Council and Treasury, et cetera. So we don't have time to guess who's undercutting whom.
ZAHN: So you say they talk about it, so you personally don't feel that's the case.
ARMITAGE: Listen, if you're a bureaucrat, as I am now, you always feel that's the case. But most of it is speculation and idle chatter rather than actual fact.
ZAHN: Richard Armitage, always good to have you on the show with us. Thank you again. And please give Secretary Powell our best wishes for a speedy recovery.
ARMITAGE: I certainly shall, and thank you very much.
ZAHN: Thank you.
And details are emerging of a once top-secret mission to assassinate Saddam Hussein. Israel, we now know, was planning to kill him back in 1992. And it was a plan straight out of a James Bond film.
With the story, here's John Vause.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Scud after Scud came crashing down, Israel did little more than brace for impact. Saddam was trying to draw Israel into the first Gulf War, hoping that would force Arab countries to break away from the U.S.-led coalition.
The ploy didn't work. Israel never retaliated, but also never forgot.
Now, declassified military documents reveal that by 1992, an elaborate plan was in place to kill the Iraqi dictator.
EPHRAIM SNEH, ISRAELI KNESSET MEMBER: I would not call it a revenge, though Saddam Hussein in '91 launched 39 missiles to the very heart of our country.
VAUSE: The documents indicate the assassination plot was daring and complicated. An elite force of Israeli commandos would helicopter into Iraq and, from a secure airstrip, drive across country to Saddam's family grave in Tikrit, where Uday and Qusay are now buried.
Israeli intelligence, which later proved correct, knew that Saddam would be attending a funeral there for his uncle. And once there, the commandos would fire a modified smart missile, killing the man who had launched the Scuds.
RON BEN YISHAY, MILITARY ANALYST: They thought that Saddam deserved a response personally, and it would show the Arab world that you cannot harm Israel severely without being punished, at least severely.
VAUSE: For almost nine months, they trained here in Zealim (ph) in southern Israel. A source close to the assassination plot has told CNN the orders to begin preparations had come from, quote, "the highest levels of the Israeli government." But after a training accident left five soldiers dead, the plan was shelved, much to the regret of some.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it was successful in 1992 or early '93, it could have spared 11 years of suffering for the Iraqi people.
VAUSE (on camera): The five Israeli soldiers died during a rehearsal for the mission. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) playing the role of Saddam and his bodyguards when a live missile was fired at them by mistake. The soldier playing Saddam survived.
John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.
ZAHN: Well, he's on top of the heap. But now with Saddam in custody, Democrat Howard Dean faces some very tough attacks from fellow Democrats for his stand on the war with Iraq.
And the lavish lifestyle of former Tyco boss Dennis Kozlowski, the man with the $6,000 shower curtain. New details are submerging of his spending ways. Not necessarily about taste, about money.
Also, an accused sniper may soon learn his fate.
Michael Jackson also prepares to face formal charges.
And Kobe Bryant's defense team goes on the offense.
We'll wrap up the developments in all three cases.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The capture of Saddam is a good thing, which I hope very much will keep our soldiers in Iraq and around the world safer. But the capture of Saddam has not made America safer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Democratic candidate Howard Dean's reaction to the capture of Saddam Hussein has stirred up a firestorm of criticism, mostly from fellow Democrats running against him.
We welcome our frequent contributor Joe Klein from "TIME" magazine. Always good to see you, Joe.
JOE KLEIN, PAULA ZAHN NOW CONTRIBUTOR: Hiya, Paula.
ZAHN: Let's talk about how Joe Lieberman pummeled Howard Dean. Let's listen together what, about what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If Howard Dean doesn't think we're safer with this guy in a prison, I'm afraid Howard Dean has climbed into his own spider hole of denial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Did it work?
KLEIN: Did what -- oh, Lieberman's attack? We'll see. I mean, the interesting thing about this is that what Howard Dean said wasn't at all outrageous. It was just kind of an unfortunate phrase.
I mean, the fact is, as he said, our troops may be safer, but America -- the threat to America wasn't from Saddam Hussein, at least no imminent threat. It was from al Qaeda, and that threat remains.
Now, what you're seeing happening is this. Howard Dean had a great run being the total antiwar candidate. You know, there -- he -- nobody could point to any progress in Iraq. Now there's...
ZAHN: But (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tougher.
KLEIN: ... now -- now there's progress, and now you're seeing Joe Lieberman and John Kerry, who also attacked him today, saying that, in effect, that Dean's policy from the beginning was the wrong one, that this war was worth it, because we now have Saddam Hussein in jail, and...
ZAHN: The suggestion being if Howard Dean had been president, Saddam Hussein would still be in power today.
KLEIN: Right, and that's a very powerful line that Lieberman uses. That if Dean's policy had been followed, Saddam would still be in power.
ZAHN: So did this do anything to really stop his momentum?
KLEIN: Well, we'll see whether it does anything to stop his momentum. He certainly has a much tougher argument to make now than he did before. And it's given some steam. You look at Joe Lieberman, and it's as if he's taking, you know, amphetamines or something. He's all excited out there on the stump.
And I think John Kerry has picked up some steam as well. It just means -- The other thing is this. We're coming down to the last weeks of the primary, the early primary campaign, and it's going -- it was going to get tougher for Dean no matter what. The fact that Saddam is captured this week makes his job, his job over the next three or four weeks tougher still.
ZAHN: How does he counteract it?
KLEIN: Well, it's going to be a tough one to counteract. He can continue to say the real fight is against al Qaeda, and that's what he tried to say in the speech yesterday, and it was pretty good speech.
ZAHN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) just a couple phrases you thought was misinterpreted, or just he didn't choose his words very well there?
KLEIN: It was just -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- it -- it was one phrase that was picked out of context, I would say.
ZAHN: So it would be American soldiers are safer, but America itself is not safer, is that the, is that (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
KLEIN: That's right. It was just a...
ZAHN: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) taking issue...
KLEIN: ... I, you know, I don't think he said anything wrong. It was -- but it was picked out of context. And you know what? That kind of had -- that often happens in the last weeks of a presidential campaign.
I predict also that Howard Dean is going to try and change the subject and make the subject more, you know, the Bush administration's closeness to Halliburton and corporate corruption, and that sort of thing. I think this is going to become very quickly a more populist campaign. And the Democrats, as is their wont, are going to try and shift away from foreign policy.
ZAHN: He may want to change the subject, but there's nothing, and I know how much you hate polls, but you got to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) every now and then...
ZAHN: ... you learn something from polling. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) corporate corruption doesn't seem to be on the top list of any American's concern right now. And Halliburton doesn't seem to have touched...
KLEIN: And neither...
ZAHN: ... a very deep nerve, that...
KLEIN: ... and you know what? Neither is the war. But the fact is, when you're a politician and you're running a successful campaign, you -- a successful politician sets the agenda and tells people what they're going to be interested in.
And I predict that the Democrats, not just Dean but also John Edwards, John Kerry, Joe Lieberman are going to make a lot more now of Bush's corporate (UNINTELLIGIBLE) connections, now that the war seems to be going a little bit better, or at least it is going a little bit better today.
ZAHN: It'll be an interesting primary campaign. You're going to be right there in the middle of it, covering it for us. Thanks, Joe.
We've heard about the $6,000 shower curtain and the $15,000 umbrella stand. Wait till you hear what we've learned now about former Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski's spending habits. He was not shopping at Target.
Also, the secret that survived nearly three quarters of a century. The daughter Strom Thurmond had with an African-American housekeeper.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD HARPOOTLIAN, THURMOND FAMILY FRIEND: ... there've been rumors for as long as I can remember about Senator Thurmond having a daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: When former Senator Strom Thurmond died earlier this year, he took an incredible family secret with him. The one-time segregationist fathered a black child born nearly 80 years ago.
David Mattingly has a report from Columbia, South Carolina.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When you look at the pictures now, it's almost impossible to not see the resemblance. The Thurmond family confirms Essie Mae Washington Williams is the daughter of a young Strom Thurmond and a teenage African-American housekeeper.
RICHARD HARPOOTLIAN, THURMOND FAMILY FRIEND: I mean, there've been rumors for as long as I can remember about Senator Thurmond having a daughter.
MATTINGLY: It was a secret known to white and black South Carolinians alike. In the 1940s, then-Governor Thurmond reportedly visited his daughter regularly at the all-black South Carolina State University, and privately provided her with financial assistance throughout her life. But publicly, the imposing Strom Thurmond monument at the state capitol lists only his four children by marriage.
AARON SHEININ, REPORTER, "THE STATE": His father didn't say whether she was or whether she wasn't. That's what he said, and he never asked him again.
MATTINGLY: And apparently it was rarely spoken of within the family as well. Strom Thurmond, Jr., quoted in a South Carolina paper says, "My mother, brother, and sisters and I have very limited personal knowledge of this."
(on camera): And so it was never reported, at least not in any definitive way, because there was never any proof. And it might have stayed that way if Essie Mae Williams, now a retired Los Angeles schoolteacher, hadn't decided that 78 years of silence was enough.
(voice-over): When he died six months ago, the former senator did not include Williams in his will. But according to her attorney, Williams has no plans to claim a share of the Thurmond estate.
David Mattingly, CNN, Columbia, South Carolina.
ZAHN: The jury gets the case of the second sniper trial. We'll have the latest on that.
Plus two men sentenced to prison time for beating a child in class, a Bible class. We'll talk with the victim's mother.
And what do President Bush's critics do in a week like this? We'll ask one of the most outspoken Bush bashers, columnist Molly Ivins.
ZAHN: Welcome back.
Here are some of the headlines you need to know as we hit the bottom of the hour.
Women in the United States are a step closer to being able to buy the morning-after pill over the counter. A Food and Drug Administration advisory committee today said Plan B should be made available without prescription. The FDA generally follows the advice of its advisory committees, but it's not known when the agency will make the final call.
Fire broke out on the 14th floor of a 22-story office building in downtown Milwaukee today. Fifteen hundred people had to get out fast when smoke filled up the building. Three people had slight injuries.
And a judge in Florida has set Monday for a hearing on whether Rush Limbaugh's medical records will stay sealed. Limbaugh is trying to keep the papers from prosecutors, who are investigating whether he bought prescription painkillers illegally.
And the jury got the case today in the trial of teenage sniper suspect John Lee Malvo.
Jeanne Meserve joins us from Chesapeake, Virginia, tonight.
Good evening, Jeanne.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Paula.
Prosecutor Robert Horan urged the jury to convict. He said that Lee Malvo was not insane at the type of the sniper murders, that he did know right from wrong. He said he was the trigger man in the key murder, that of Linda Franklin.
He described Malvo and Muhammad as being peas in a pod and said they shared responsibility for the killings.
Now, from the defense attorney, Michael Arif, a very different story. He said Muhammad had so brainwashed Malvo that he lost his own identity. Right and wrong for Malvo, he said, were whatever John Muhammad told him they were. And he said Malvo had only confessed to the crimes to protect the man he regarded as his father. Arif urged the jury to find Malvo not guilty by reason of insanity. The jury begins its deliberations in earnest tomorrow morning, Paula.
ZAHN: So Jeanne, what was the general reaction in the courtroom?
MESERVE: Well, there were family members of three victims in the courtroom. When the murder of their loved one was discuss -- was discussed, they became upset. Very gruesome autopsy and crime scene photographs were put on the big screen.
There was also a reaction when defense attorney Michael Arif called Lee Malvo John Muhammad's last victim. There was an audible intake of breath in the courtroom. Afterwards I talked to one of the family members. She said she found that offensive. Lee Malvo, she said, was his own victim, Paula.
ZAHN: Jeanne Meserve, thanks for the update.
Now, let's get straight to the legal heart of this riveting and emotional trial.
Jeffrey Toobin is our senior legal analyst.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.
ZAHN: What are the chances that the jury will buy the insanity argument?
TOOBIN: It seems almost zero to me.
TOOBIN: I think it's an extremely weak argument. Because the core of insanity in Virginia and most states is an inability to tell right from wrong. Brainwashing is just not part of the insanity defense. I just think this is an almost certain loser in the guilt phase of the trial.
ZAHN: What is the best the defense can hope for?
TOOBIN: I think they have a very good shot, or at least a reasonable shot, of avoiding the death penalty, because he is so much younger, he was so more, much more manip -- he was so much, so manipulated by John Muhammad that I think the distinction in ages might get him a chance to avoid the death penalty. ZAHN: Muhammad, of course, convicted and sentenced to death. What will be the impact of that decision on this jury's decision?
TOOBIN: Technically nothing, they are not supposed to consider it. In the real world, I think it's bad for the defense to know that one of these two in these close partnerships has already been sentenced to death.
ZAHN: Let's move to Kobe Bryant. So, later this week, some action in the courtroom.
TOOBIN: So ugly. This case is getting uglier by the day. The defense is claiming not only did the accuser in this case try to commit suicide twice, but that she was using drugs used to treat schizophrenia, which is a horrible thing to accuse someone of if it's not true, but if it is true, that is something that would really call her credibility into question and create another problem in this case.
ZAHN: And this information has allegedly come from sealed medical records?
TOOBIN: Some investigation. We don't know exactly where it's come from. But, you know, Kobe Bryant has a lot of money, and that money has paid off. He has learned a lot about this accuser, he is dragging her through the mud and the only thing you can say is maybe her credibility makes her deserve it.
ZAHN: That's a bizarre thing. Well, what's the deal with his hands being measured?
TOOBIN: One of the only injuries to the accuser here is a mark on her jaw. And what I suspect -- I don't know for sure is they want to measure exactly how his hand would fit to see whether or not it corroborates her version of how the attack took place.
ZAHN: Finally, closing with Michael Jackson tonight, formal charges filed later this week, probably on Thursday?
TOOBIN: Look for one thing in those charges. Are the charges concerning events before or after February because the smoking gun document from last week said in February, the accuser denied anything bad taking place before February.
If it's before February, they think they have something that they can counteract these -- this victim saying nothing happened. If it's afterwards, the government may be in better shape but if the accusations are before February, I think the prosecution is in for a real rough go.
ZAHN: So what do you mean? I mean, you don't see the case materializing or what?
TOOBIN: I think the fact that the charges are being filed means it materializes, but whether they can get a conviction. If they are charging him with a crime when the victim has told government investigators it simply did not take place, it's not impossible to get a conviction, but it's awfully close.
ZAHN: We're going to keep you very busy this week, Jeffrey.
TOOBIN: Lots of action.
ZAHN: Thanks for your insight.
And on now to the Scott Peterson case. His lawyer has asked a judge to move the murder trial out of Modesto, California, saying there is a lynch mob mentality there. Joining us now to tell us how that is likely to play out is Robert Grimes, a criminal defense attorney from San Diego. Thanks for joining us, sir.
ROBERT GRIMES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: Hi. Let's talk a little bit about what defense attorney Mark Geragos is saying. In addition to calling this a lynch mob mentality, he says his tires have been slashed, he's been accosted in restaurants, he says by and large the media is predisposed to taking a line against Scott Peterson. Is he right?
GRIMES: You know, I think he's wrong on all accounts. His rhetoric of a lynch mob mentality and some random acts against him and his car don't help him. The media, I think, they've played every time he's argued for some Satanic cult or some other explanation of the case, the media gives that as much play as they do the prosecution, so I don't think he's being very persuasive.
ZAHN: Now his team conducted a survey of some 300 Stanislaus County residents and here's what they found. That 98 percent of them were aware of the case, 39 percent admitted a predisposition towards Mr. Peterson's guilt. Does that mean anything to you? Is that enough to get the trial moved?
GRIMES: You know, Paula, I'm frankly shocked that these figures aren't a lot stronger for the defense. I thought they were going to come up -- this is, by the way, their own expert that did this poll and to have only 39 percent of the people admit any prejudgment and not in very strong terms, they're just saying a predisposition towards his guilt instead of just being, you know, unable to give him a fair trial, I think he's going to need to do a lot better than that to get a change of venue.
ZAHN: So, Robert, basically you're saying that if you were heading up the defense, these numbers were not compelling enough to put out there?
GRIMES: I don't think so, Paula. I don't think that this judge is going to feel that this means they can't get a fair trial in Modesto. I think the case, it can stay in Modesto if those are the only numbers they can produce.
ZAHN: What about the idea that the judge has thrown out? Where you actually can keep the trial in Modesto but bring jurors from outside that venue. Will that work? GRIMES: Well, as a defense lawyer, I really understand why Geragos doesn't want to do that. It's hard enough on a long trial and this trial is going to take at least three or four months, to get people that are willing to spend the time and go away from their lives and their jobs and their families to listen to the evidence.
And if you -- if you put into that the factor of having them bussed in from some other county, it's a tremendous hardship on the jury and it greatly reduces the diversity of a jury panel you're going to get. You'll get a bunch of retired people with nothing else to do, you know, with no life, and neither side wants that.
ZAHN: And while a defense team is out there trying to spin the numbers I just showed you, you've got the prosecution basically surveying the whole state to try to make the case that there is no difference in public opinion from county to county in California. How persuasive is that information?
GRIMES: Well, I think that's a real good point, because it really doesn't help the defense to show what the numbers are of people that are predisposed against Peterson in Stanislaus county unless they can convince the trial judge that the numbers are better in some other community like L.A. or San Francisco, so I think the prosecution is on the right track and we'll see what their figures are.
These are two things, No. 1, the other counties are less likely to have him prejudged and, of course, most important of all, can't you get -- just 12 people is all you need, can't you get 12 people in Stanislaus county that will judge him on the evidence.
ZAHN: Quick yes or no. Are you glad you're not handling defense for Mr. Peterson?
GRIMES: I do not envy Geragos at all on this one, believe me.
ZAHN: Robert Grimes, joining from San Diego tonight. Thank you.
ZAHN: Pastor is sentenced for beating a student during Bible class. We're going to talk with the mother of the young victim.
And some new details about the lavish spending of former Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski, the man with the $15,000 umbrella stand. Now that would be a picture, but you'll see the umbrella stand shortly.
ZAHN: The vicious beating of a young Texas boy may put two men behind bars for years, but what makes this crime even more shocking, it was committed by a preacher at a Bible camp last summer. Joining us from Austin is Norma Areliano, the mother of the 11-year-old victim Louie Guerrero and Bobby Taylor, their attorney who has filed a civil suit against the Capitol City Baptist Church. Welcome both of you.
First of all, Norma, what happened to your son?
NORMA ARELIANO, MOTHER OF VICTIM: He got beaten and ... ZAHN: Describe what happened to him. We're looking at some pictures. It's kind of hard to tell the extent of the injuries.
ARELIANO: Well, he got beaten with a rod on his back.
ZAHN: The pictures are just hideous. How badly hurt was he?
ARELIANO: He was beat pretty serious. He needed blood and then kidney failure.
ZAHN: And how is is he doing now?
ARELIANO: He's recovering and doing a little better, but we're working on that right now.
ZAHN: During the trial, you had to hear the defense team say that you in fact had actually given the ministers permission to beat your son.
When you heard that, what did you think?
ARELIANO: They're just saying that just for them to get, you know off the hook, but I never gave them permission to hit Louie at all.
ZAHN: How did you become involved with the church in the first place, Norma?
ARELIANO: I was looking for a church. I wanted to go to church. I always have been in church, so his mother stopped by the house, and she invited me to the church and I started going.
ZAHN: And you were a member of the church for two years, you had two other children in the program.
At any point, did you ever see these men in any way mistreat a child?
ARELIANO: Well, I was a member at capital city for four years. And I had four of my children there in school, but two of them were competing for this program.
ZAHN: And Mr. Taylor, I guess what is so fascinating to those of us who are just reading more about this story is you actually during the trial had some 20 church members testifies on behalf of Joshua and Caleb Thomson in the penalty phase of this trial.
Help people understand why the tension ran so high in this trial and why those folks took that position?
BOBBY TAYLOR, ATTORNEY: Well, the trial was two weeks. It started on a Monday, and the jury listened to evidence. And I believe it was the following week, on about Wednesday they came back with a guilty verdict. And then the next day, the district attorney's office put on one witness who testified to having had some acts done by Joshua to him a couple years ago. And from that point, the defense began putting on witnesses, and it's my estimation they put on probably 20 or so witnesses who all testified that, even though they now knew that Joshua had beat Louie, and even though they saw the pictures and saw how bad it was, and even though heard that both Joshua and Caleb had both admitted to it, they still felt that Joshua was upstanding, all-American, a good citizen. It didn't change their opinion about him. And each one of those people testified that they still respected him highly.
ZAHN: Now Mr. Taylor, I guess what I want to know is why would they go to such great lengths to protect those ministers after they admitted to this and they knew what they knew.
TAYLOR: Each one of those people that testified was a member of the church. And some of them had actually come from Colorado to Austin, Texas with the church founder, Hank Thomson (ph). I can't tell you why they would stand before god and everybody else and say what they said, unless they honestly believed that, even after Joshua and Caleb beat Louie, he was still upstanding and righteous in their eyes.
ZAHN: Well, I appreciate both of your prospective this evening. Norma Areliano and attorney Bobby Taylor, thank you for your time this evening.
TAYLOR: Thank you.
ZAHN: And we're going to take a look at former Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski spending spree. That $15,000 umbrella stand was only the tip of the iceberg.
And Columnist Molly Ivan, what does this famous Bush bashers have to say as President Bush enjoys the after glow of Saddam Hussein's capture?
ZAHN: They're having a good time now, aren't they, Andy?
We're really learning more about the expensive tastes of former Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski. He's accused of spending 100's of millions of company dollars on lavish parties and decorating his New York apartment. We've all heard by now about the $6,000 shower curtain. Now, new documents in court detail purchases like $191,000 rug, that would be a painting there but he could have saved his stockholders a bundle. CNN contributor and "Fortune" magazine Andy Serwer has done some comparison shopping for things like $2,000 pillows. But before we get to that good evening.
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE MAGAZINE": Hello.
ZAHN: Let's quick go through some of the other statistics we hadn't heard before. Custom window treatments $156,000, a backgammon table, $38,000. A mirror with gilded wood a $113,000.
Let's go to the next one. I know this is one of your favorites, the custom blue and gold queen bed skirt. SERWER: I never sleep without one of those, Paula. Never.
ZAHN: How about that rectangular pillow, Andy.
SERWER: I need a pillow like that, too.
ZAHN: And coat hangers, $2,900.
SERWER: I don't see how you get a $3,000 coat hanger. Where do you find one, right?
ZAHN: I have no idea.
SERWER: Some of the other stuff, you know, actually once you go through it -- the keyword is guilt. There's gold in everything. Gold, thread, gold paint. Some of that stuff adds up, fabrics at $500 a yard or a foot, it's expensive stuff. But the coat hanger got me vexed.
ZAHN: All right. You saw these numbers and got vexed, and decided to do some shopping of your own. Lets start with the window treatment, $156,000, you went where, the Pottery Barn?
SERWER: I went to Pottery Barn. Yes, I kind of went not the highest scale here, but I saved a lot of money there, Paula.
ZAHN: What were the drapes made out of, Andy?
SERWER: These are regular drapes, or their material. Lets just call them material.
ZAHN: What kind of guy...
SERWER: But you see I saved a thousand times. His were 1,000 types more expensive.
ZAHN: All right. This is stunning, the wood mirror, that Mr. Kozlowski spent $113,000 on, you bought for how much?
SERWER: I saved a lot of money on this, $249, OK.
ZAHN: Good job, Andy.
SERWER: I'm really doing well. Do you want to do the game table?
He spent 38 grand. I got one for $199. This is a game table with 10 games on it, not just backgammon. So, again, better value. This is Pottery Barn.
ZAHN: Now, the bed skirt, you also did better than $5,000.
SERWER: I saved 100 times. I did 100 times better. I got one from Target for $49. And you don't need to spend, Paula, $5,000 on a bed skirt.
ZAHN: No, really?
SERWER: Is that a ruffle? Is that the same thing?
ZAHN: Yes, it probably qualifies as a ruffle. I don't know.
SERWER: All right. Then, let's talk pillows. This is important for someone like you. It's important to someone like me.
ZAHN: $2,600 pillow, which you purchased for a similar size.
SERWER: Yes, 12 bucks. $12.99, this is again from Target, right?
Yes, this is from Target, nice pillows there.
ZAHN: And then you ended up your shopping spree at Target, where you picked up and instead of spending $2,900 on hangers, you spent...
SERWER: Nineteen. Truth be told I never spent a dime -- $19, but I never spent a dime on coat hangers any ways, because I get them from the cleaners. I mean, really buys coat hangers. If I had to, I would spend 19. I would spend 19.
SERWER: I would not spend $3,000 on coat hangers.
ZAHN: All right, let's go through your total savings, then.
SERWER: All right, let's add it up.
ZAHN: Mr. Kozlowski (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for $381,000.
SERWER: Right, OK.
SERWER: OK. I spent $609. Look at how much money I would have saved Tyco shareholders, right?
ZAHN: All right.
SERWER: I would have saved Tyco shareholders $317,000, if I was doing the shopping, $317,000.
ZAHN: So does this man end up in prison?
SERWER: Things are looking worse. I mean, we're having a lot of fun here. For a while, I thought, well, people are just going to accept this, but this stuff -- I mean, the point here is we're not making fun of someone's bad taste or lavish tastes. The point here is shareholders paid for this stuff. Right?
ZAHN: In addition to these items you're talking about tonight, it was also revealed just today that the decorators' transportation costs were also picked up by shareholders. SERWER: Right. Now, if you follow that these are legitimate business expenses, then those are legitimate expenses as well, because the contractors have to get to -- but they're not legitimate, and I think every juror there is going to be going, you know what, this just does not add up at all.
ZAHN: Hey, Andy, for a guy, you did a really good job of holiday shopping.
SERWER: You like my pillow (ph) thing?
ZAHN: Would you like to do mine for me this year?
SERWER: You have a shopper. I'm not going to do it.
ZAHN: Yeah, right.
SERWER: You don't have a shopper, I am not your shopper.
SERWER: I'm not going to be your shopper.
ZAHN: Thank you, Andy. You might have saved Tyco a fortune.
SERWER: I would have.
ZAHN: President Bush still has his critics, but with the capture of Saddam and the economy improving, can they find it in their hearts to like him? We're going to ask columnist Molly Ivins.
ZAHN: These are tough times for Bush bashers. His critics have blasted him since the first day he took the oath of office. But things are looking up for the president in some categories. He's got Saddam, the economy is improving. What do his critics do? Well, joining us from Los Angeles is Molly Ivins, syndicated columnist and author of "Bushwhacked." Always good to see you, Molly, welcome.
MOLLY IVINS, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Thank you, Paula.
ZAHN: Are you willing to give the president any credit for the capture of Saddam?
IVINS: Well, I guess the credit goes to the soldiers on the ground, but I mean obviously it (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to Bush's credit. And furthermore I think it's a great thing. I mean, you know, good for us and good for the Iraqis.
ZAHN: Is that hard for you to say?
IVINS: No, not at all. I never root for bad things to happen to this country. And if things go well and if it reflects well on the president, well, so be it. That's fine with me. I don't have any problem at all with that. ZAHN: Do you give him any credit for the turnaround in the economy?
IVINS: No, because I don't think there's -- I don't think it's real. I'm not at all persuaded that it's -- I mean, the Dow may well be over 10,000, but I don't think that helps the people. This is something that -- for a long time, with all the attention we've paid to the Dow Jones Average in this country, on television every night, it takes up acres in the newspaper, most people couldn't even tell you what it is.
What we really need to do is pay more attention to the Doug Jones Average, that would be Doug Jones average American, how is old Doug doing. And that's what I've been out reporting, and frankly the news is not good.
ZAHN: Well, let's talk about something you've come clean about. That you are an out of the closet Dean supporter. Senator Lieberman harshly attacking him today, suggesting that if Howard Dean were president, that Saddam Hussein would probably still be in power today. Does he have a point there?
IVINS: That's a little bit hard to read. I suppose that's possible. I suppose that's possible. Dean didn't think it was a good idea to go over there, and I'm sure not persuaded that it is. I mean, it seems to me we got talked into going over there because of these terrible weapons of mass destruction, which don't exist. And my deal from the beginning was, of course, we can defeat Saddam Hussein. The trouble is that then we're then stuck from the peace from hell, and that's what I think we're still looking at over there.
Now, I am very hopeful that the fact that Saddam has been captured will clarify the situation of who is behind a lot of this resistance. I mean, we've been blaming it all on Saddam Hussein loyalists, but there's every indication that it's a more complex than that, and with Saddam out of the way, with any luck at all, that will -- it will at least be clearer what the protest is about, what the insurgency is about.
ZAHN: Molly, a lot of folks out there who are watching this race pretty closely are fearful for people like you who support Howard Dean that his momentum might be eclipsed by this capture of Saddam Hussein. Is he in a bit of a box here?
IVINS: Well, again, I'm always amazed that people in our business can be so ahistorical. I mean, it's as though, OK, last week the president wasn't doing very well because he hadn't found Saddam Hussein, and now everything's changed.
Well, look, there is going to be an awful lot of up and down before the next election. You know as well as I do that anybody who would pretend to call an election this far out is a complete nincompoop. And when you see these talking heads on television confidently predicting one result or the other, you know you are listening to a damn fool. And the idea that somehow you could take what is right now and freeze it as though that is going to be the result of an election that's almost a year away is just ludicrous. Of course, you know, the president is going to look like dog meat again, and then he will come up again and all kinds of things will happen.
But I think it's kind of silly to sit around and say, well, it's all over for Howard Dean or the Democrats because this thing has happened this week.
Well, it's going to pale into significance compared to what happens next week and the week after that.
ZAHN: And we'll be checking in with you in a week or two to see if you've changed your mind about anything. People may not always agree with you, Molly, but you're always good for some humor here on our show. Molly Ivins, thank you.
IVINS: To be hoped.
ZAHN: Have a great holiday if we don't see you before then.
And we want to thank you all for being with us tonight. Tomorrow night, for the entire hour, we will have live reports from Baghdad as we investigate how Saddam's capture is changing the situation on the ground in Iraq, changing the situation with our allies. Again, thanks for joining us tonight. Have a good night. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Armitage; Two Men Sentenced for Beating Child in Bible Class>