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Paula Zahn Now

An Hour Inside Iraq

Aired December 17, 2003 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, HOST: In focus tonight, an hour inside Iraq. Where is the country going after the capture of Saddam Hussein, as pro- Saddam rallies and attacks continue following the ex-dictator's capture?
U.S. forces launch an offensive, Operation Ivy Blizzard, to root out insurgents.

Plus, we'll take a look at new information from the capture of Saddam.

And one family who suffered at the hands of the Iraqi tyrant speaks out on what it thinks Saddam's fate should be.

All of that ahead tonight.

But first, here's what you need to know right now.

After 23 or nearly 23 years after shooting President Reagan, John Hinckley, Jr., will be allowed out of a mental hospital without an escort. A federal judge today ruled Hinckley can make unsupervised visits with his parents.

Senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is here with the details. Good evening, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.

ZAHN: This isn't exactly what John Hinckley wanted, is it? Even as outraged as some people are.

TOOBIN: It is not. And in fact, it is not that big a change from what's been going on. Because of prior court rulings, John Hinckley has gone out on supervised visits more than 200 times.

What's different now is that the supervision, instead of by hospital officials, will be by his parents. It's really not that dramatic a difference, but it is better for Hinckley.

ZAHN: Do you think he represents a danger to society?

TOOBIN: The government's own expert said that he was not a danger. Hinckley's expert said he was not a danger. I couldn't see any evidence, based on my review of the opinion and of the, of the hearing, that said he was a danger.

Is that 100 percent guarantee? No. But it does not appear like he's any sort of danger.

ZAHN: What requirements does he have to meet when he makes these visits?

TOOBIN: He has to put forth a schedule before he goes, a detailed agenda of where he's going. He has to be with his parents 100 percent of the time. He has to, after he comes back, report on precisely what he did. Secret Service can monitor him from a distance and surely will.

So this is far from a carte blanche to just go wherever he wants.

ZAHN: And in spite of what you said about your examination of the records, the prosecutors still maintain John Hinckley remains deceptive.

TOOBIN: They're...

ZAHN: What are they looking for?

TOOBIN: They...

ZAHN: Where are they looking for him to cross the line?

TOOBIN: Their problem is, they lost the trial 20-plus years ago. And under the rules of people who are acquitted by insanity, if you, if you're -- unless you can prove you're a continuing danger, you can't keep him locked up. And they have not proved that he's a continuing danger. Therefore, Judge Friedman had almost no choice but to gradually lessen the requirements.

ZAHN: All right, Jeffrey Toobin, thanks so much.

Tonight we're devoting the rest of the hour to Iraq.

There were several major developments this evening. For that, we are bringing you team coverage from across the country.

CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is live in Iraq, where U.S. troops led raids aimed at insurgents. CNN correspondent Alfonso Van Marsh (ph) is reporting from Tikrit. CNN anchor Bill Hemmer is in Baghdad. And CNN security analyst Kelly McCann is also in Baghdad.

We begin with Nic Robertson tonight. Good evening, Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Paula.

Well, Operation Ivy Blizzard got under way about 24 hours ago. Already some Iraqi insurgents have been taken into coalition custody, at least 30 so far. We saw them on this base just outside of Samarra several hours ago. They were being processed by coalition officials.

It is hoped by the coalition offices interrogating them that they will give them information which will lead the coalition to other Iraqi insurgents.

The operation that began about 24 hours ago was the biggest operation by the coalition in the last six months. It involved 3,000 troops, Bradley fighting vehicles, Abrams tanks, Apache helicopters, C-130s, F-16 fighter aircraft. It targeted insurgents inside the town of Samarra. It ringed Samarra with troops.

There are still security checkpoints on the outskirts of Samarra, and according to coalition officials, those checkpoints will remain in place.

But they say this isn't just a security operation. They say in the coming weeks, they plan to start pouring money into Samarra to build up the government -- build up the city's council to make the police force there something that can be relied upon. They say that this twin approach of tough security, getting the insurgents, and putting money in will convince the population here that the coalition is here to help.

For more on the situation in Iraq, I'm joined by my colleague Alfonso Van Marsh in Tikrit.

ALFONSO VAN MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.

Yes, here in Saddam Hussein's home town, one can call it a tale of two shoulders. Over to my left, one of Saddam Hussein's former palaces, now turned into a U.S. military complex (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- military complex, rather.

I was saying that what's going on here is, soldiers are still buzzing over news that Saddam Hussein was captured. Many of these troops here at the 4th Infantry Division were part of that historic raid over the weekend.

And over my right shoulder here, downtown Tikrit, once again without power at night. What's interesting to note is that there have been protests here, protests by pro-Saddam loyalists.

It's important to keep n mind that Saddam Hussein brought relative prosperity and development to this part of town. And news that the former Iraqi leader is in U.S. custody is not going over well. Iraqi police clashed with those loyalists in order to break up those demonstrations.

U.S. service members also at risk here, an improvised explosive device or a car road bomb went off, injuring three (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- excuse me, three soldiers a few days ago, two of them injured seriously.

It's all proof that here in Saddam Hussein's home town, not everything is going well for U.S. soldiers on the home front.

And I understand the story is same in Baghdad, where we turn to our -- my colleague, Bill Hemmer. Bill?

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCOR: Alfonso, thank you. A short time ago, word coming in to us here in Baghdad, a U.S. service member, a member of the U.S. Army, shot and killed by small arms fire just three miles north of Baghdad. Another U.S. soldier wounded as a result of that incident. Not much more information available.

That brings the total now to 200 U.S. service member killed by hostile combat fire here in Iraq since the president declared the end of major combat operations back on the first of May.

Elsewhere here in Baghdad, relatively quit and calm, according to Iraqi standards. The dawn was broken, though, right about 6:00 a.m. local time. A huge fireball explosion rocketing toward the sky as a truck exploded in central Baghdad.

It's not clear exactly what took place here. Iraqi police are saying that the truck was headed for a local police station when it blew up too soon. Whatever the story, and oftentimes it's difficult to figure out what the story is here, 10 dead at least, and 15 others are wounded.

Also, the Iraqi Governing Council met with reporters again today, talking about Saddam Hussein and his current condition. They insist that the former Iraqi leader has never been taken out of this country since he was apprehended last weekend. He has stayed here and will remain here until his trial begins.

When that date is set, though, is an open question tonight.

Also in Baghdad, CNN security analyst Kelly McCann is here as well. Kelly?

KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Thank you, Bill.

An interesting quiet day, Paula. Basically, we woke up to the explosion. That was followed by two significant firefights near an Iraqi police location. Later on in the day, a bomb maker not too far from where we're staying actually had an inadvertent detonation and blew himself up, killing himself and several other people.

On the way to various sites throughout the day, we did pass over the route where two antipersonnel mines had been configured to be command detonated. In other words, they were improvised explosive devices.

What's odd is that they were found first in the morning, and then they were replaced later in the afternoon on the same route.

And lastly, of course, we spent only two hours at any location here in Baghdad, where we didn't hear gunfire, and that was at the Baghdad International Airport, Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks so much for the update, CNN security analyst Kelly McCann in Baghdad. Appreciate that.

If Saddam Hussein could hide for seven months, maybe there are weapons of mass destruction yet to be found in Iraq. And so the search goes on. As the CIA interrogates Saddam, hoping he may ultimately give up some information, national security correspondent David Ensor has this update on the search for weapons of mass destruction.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq's vast deserts is like looking for a needle in a haystack, and knowledgeable officials privately concede it has not gone well.

David Kay, the CIA man leading the search, is home for the holidays. His team in Iraq has been cut back to beef up on U.S. efforts against insurgents. Partly for personal reasons, sources say Kay has not even decided whether he wants to go back to finish the job in the new year.

Saddam Hussein, the prisoner, has offered nothing on the weapons except denials thus far, officials say. There is disagreement over whether his capture will convince Iraqi scientists to reveal more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that the incentive to cooperate is probably greater now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The security situation in Iraq is so unstable that even with Saddam captive, it's unlikely that anyone's going to feel more secure until the insurgency itself disappears.

ENSOR: President Bush and his advisers counsel patience. The weapons have not been found yet, says the president. Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said the little hole where Saddam hid shows how hard the search for weapons is.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Think of the quantity of biological weapons that could fit in that hole alone, could kill tens of thousands of human beings.

ENSOR: After all, it wasn't until the wind blew sand off some buried Iraqi war planes that even they were found.

But all Kay has found is evidence of weapons programs in cold storage, blueprints, components, dual-use labs, as well as a missile program that cheated on U.N. rules -- but no actual weapons.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If there are not weapons of mass destruction, what happened to the ones we know he had the last time we had a U.N. inspection team in there? Where did they go?

ENSOR: The Iraqis said they had destroyed everything, but they failed to prove it. Administration critics say it looks like Saddam was bluffing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He thought he could cooperate enough and give two messages, one to the world, I have nothing to hide, and two, to his neighbors, I've got a lot to hide, don't mess with me. It turns out it was a major miscalculation.

ENSOR (on camera): If it does turn out that there are no weapons, then it would appear that Saddam Hussein is not the only one who miscalculated.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: The raid on Saddam Hussein -- new video of the mission to find him in a hole.

Also, a grandmother shares her story of how Saddam Hussein executed her husband and four sons, and why she is afraid to testify against him.

And the United States is launching a new TV network aimed the Arab world. Will it win over Arab hearts and minds?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Tonight we want to share with you new video of the raid that netted Saddam Hussein. CNN was the first to break the story. Now you'll see and hear what it was like on the mission to find him.

Alfonso Van Marsh has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAN MARSH (voice-over): Bradley armored fighting vehicles guarding the U.S. Army's Raider Base in Tikrit. When I noticed these 26-ton beasts had left their position Saturday night, it was my first clue something was happening, something big.

Later that evening, troops gathered by the dozens at a central area at the base. The Bradleys in a convoy of heavily armed Humvees had returned from what turned out to be an extraordinary raid.

I captured these extraordinary images of military leadership giving a pep talk, of soldiers taking a few pictures of their own. We later learned they were celebrating the capture of Saddam Hussein.

New pictures, home video taken by a staff sergeant on the ground and seen first on CNN, offer insight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) back there.

VAN MARSH: If the troops look a little dazed, that's because their commander, Colonel James Hickey, just confirmed that their raid ended with Iraq's former leader in U.S. custody.

That warning from Colonel Hickey for troops not to talk about the raid until an official announcement by military top brass.

PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR: We got him.

VAN MARSH: But CNN's team of reporters broke that story hours earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VAN MARSH: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE), where there has been some very interesting activity in the last 24 hours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAN MARSH: An Army specialist on the raid described what it was like to have to wait.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like Christmas, when you can't open your gifts, and you have to wait until Christmas Day, that was the feeling.

VAN MARSH: Christmas came a little early for U.S. troops here in Tikrit. The capture of Saddam Hussein a moral boost for U.S. service members who have been here for months and will likely spend the holiday season here as well.

Alfonso Van Marsh, CNN, Tikrit, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: The politics of a post-Saddam Iraq. We'll be talking with former senator Bob Kerrey about how the race for the White House changes because of this.

And the U.S. launches a new offensive aimed at halting the attacks in Iraq. We'll have the latest on Operation -- of the Operation Ivy Blizzard.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: You can count on the capture of Saddam Hussein to have a political effect on the race for president of the United States. The question is, just how much?

Joining us now, former Democratic senator Bob Kerrey. He is now president of New School University here in New York. In Baghdad tonight, "CROSSFIRE" co-host Tucker Carlson, and from Washington, our regular contributor, Joe Klein of "TIME" magazine.

Welcome, gentlemen.

Tucker, let's start with you first this evening. Do you believe that the war in Iraq will be a determining issue in the race for the presidency?

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": I think it will be. I mean, I think it will be in a more general sense, as it represents foreign policy and threats from abroad and the overall war on terror.

But specifically, yes, for two reasons. One, it's clearly the issue that's energizing the president's opponents. I mean, Howard Dean supporters, by and large, appear to me to be animated by unhappiness over the war in Iraq. And, two, the economy has effectively disappeared as an effective issue for Democrats. That may change. I mean, you know, the election is not for 11 months.

But right now, that seems like the issue. And it should be, it's the most important one.

ZAHN: Do you agree, Senator Kerrey?

BOB KERREY (D), FORMER SENATOR: Yes, I think in the short term it unquestionably has an impact. I hope it has the impact on the president of not feeling safe that he can go to funerals of American servicemen that have been killed over there.

I mean, I have supported the war. I think it's great news for Iraqi people, I think it's likely to increase the chances that the policy itself is going to work. And, I mean, I hope it not only has an impact upon Democratic candidates, I hope it has a impact on the president as well.

ZAHN: Joe?

JOE KLEIN, "TIME": Well, I think that it depends on what happens on the ground. You know, it certainly will be the central issue of this campaign. If things go badly over the next six months, if we're not able to set up a provisional government in next July, and there's, you know, violence during the first months of the new year, then it's going to work against the president, obviously.

But if things do go well, and if we do set up a provisional government in July, the president will be able to point to a major success, and the Democrats will have nothing to counter that.

KERREY: Well, except they will have something to counter with it. Which, I mean, the ground zero for terrorism against the United States is not Iraq, it's eastern Afghanistan and western Pakistan. That's ground zero for al Qaeda, that's where they continue to have their base of operations. And we've got a land war going on in Afghanistan right now.

So there's a significant amount of exposure. I hope the Democrats -- I very much like what Howard Dean said. That he said that it's great news for the American people, great news for American soldiers, for the Iraqi people and for the president. It is a victory. In many ways it justifies what the president has done.

But this war by no means is over. And as I said, ground zero for terrorism is not Iraq, it's eastern Afghanistan and western Pakistan.

ZAHN: And Tucker, as you know, there have been a lot of people who've suggested because of resources being moved into Iraq, the war on terror in Afghanistan has been severely compromised.

CARLSON: Well, I mean, that may be true, I'll take the senator's word for it. But that also is subject to change. I mean, Osama bin Laden himself announced, publicly, as you know, that the new front in the war against the United States and the West is going to be Iraq.

And there's no reason to believe that's not true. I mean, there's real concern, and there's a lot of evidence that foreign jihadists are moving into Iraq.

And I think the whole question of what happens next in the future of Iraq hangs on the ability of the new Iraqi government, specifically its police, to get control of terrorism. It's a very, very dangerous job, and they're the only ones who can do it.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) only ones who know the difference between a native Iraqi and a Jordanian.

KERREY: But that's in the past (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I mean, yes, it's spreading to, it's going to Iraq, but the heart of the beast is in eastern Afghanistan, that's where al Qaeda lives. That's where (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- Osama bin Laden -- Osama bin Laden blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, not Saddam Hussein.

I, again, I think what the president did in Iraq was right, but this doesn't decrease the threat of terrorism in the United States of America. Afghanistan is and eastern and western Pakistan, in my judgment, is ground zero for that effort.

ZAHN: Joe, jump in here.

KLEIN: Yes, well, I think that that Bob is right on the merits, but maybe not on the politics of it. I think that if you have a stable situation in Afghanistan, and the war in Iraq seems a tremendous victory for the president, that's what people will remember.

If the war in Iraq seems to have been a mistake, which is quite a strong possibility, because I don't see the situation on the ground there getting any better, then it's going to be a big problem for the president.

And it all fits into the larger picture, which is, did George Bush make the right decision in fighting terrorism to go into Iraq? Was that the right way to go about fighting the war on terrorism? And I think that that's an open question, and that is the question that this next election may well answer.

ZAHN: The other question, Tucker, that's being raised is, to what extent the president's reelection campaign is affecting policy in Iraq. You want to take a stab at that?

CARLSON: You know, that's, I think, a completely valid question. I mean, his opponents have charged that there is going to be some kind of mass pullout before the election. I don't think that's true. I think it's pretty clear they're going to have at least 100,000 American troops in Iraq next November.

I will say, here, you know, that's one of the many theories floating around. I mean, from what I can tell, it's a pretty common view among Iraqis here that, you know, Israel and other assorted Zionists are running the whole enterprise.

Which is another way of saying there are a lot of conspiracy theories. What really matters in the end is whether the country stops being, you know, a haven for violence, which it obviously is right now.

I mean that in the end, reality matters. If the country gets better, it's good for the president. If it doesn't, it's bad.

ZAHN: Senator, how do the Democrats confront this? I know you said you agreed with some of what Howard Dean said, that he was widely criticized for saying, that maybe soldiers weren't necessarily safer but Americans were.

There is a belief that he's going to lose some momentum because of the capture of Saddam Hussein.

KERREY: My, I, it remains to be seen whether or not he'd lose momentum. I mean, I don't have advice for the Democratic candidates. I mean, if I'd have get -- if Howard Dean had followed my advice six months ago, he wouldn't be a front-runner. So, I mean, I'm a bystander in this campaign.

I mean, I'm -- I'll score the point a second time, though. I do hope that the president now feels sufficiently confident, as a consequence of this success, that he'll start going to funerals of American soldiers that are dying in this war. I just...

ZAHN: Are you bitter about that?

KERREY: I'm not bitter about it, but I'm offended by it. I know it's a political calculus. I know they're worried about the exposure. But I don't think that causes Americans to turn off. I think it causes Americans quite the contrary. I think it (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it causes them to feel more serious about the effort, more committed to make sure it's a success.

ZAHN: What, Joe, do the administration see as the risk, as if the president did attempt some of these funerals?

KLEIN: Well, I think that up until the capture of Saddam Hussein, there wasn't very (UNINTELLIGIBLE) much good news coming out of Iraq, and this would have just reemphasized the bad news.

I fearlessly predict that you may see the president doing a bit more of this, especially if the situation on the ground begins to improve in Iraq.

I mean, what you have is the confluence here of politics and necessity. It's good politics, or it's necessary politics, for the, for, you know, the president to move sovereignty toward the Iraqis.

But I also think that on the ground there, the Iraqis are getting -- the Iraqi people have very mixed to negative feelings about this continuing American occupation. And the sooner that we could get a functioning government up and running in Iraq, the better.

ZAHN: Joe Klein, former senator Bob Kerrey, Tucker Carlson, thank you for all of your insights.

Thousands of troops sweep into Samarra to catch suspected insurgents. The goal is to keep the pressure up on anticoalition elements. Is it working?

And Saddam Hussein nearly killed an entire family. Now, with no grave to grieve over, one woman searches for closure and justice for Saddam.

And tomorrow, our interview with the African-American daughter of Senator Strom Thurmond.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back.

Here's what you need to know right now at the bottom of the hour.

The man who tried to kill President Reagan will be allowed to leave a mental hospital without supervision. A judge ruled today John Hinckley, Jr., can visit his family.

Justice correspondent Kelli Arena is standing by in Washington with the details. Good evening, Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Paula.

Well, you're right, a judge ruled that Hinckley will be allowed six day visits with his parents within a 50-mile radius of Washington, D.C., and those will be followed by two overnight visits, also within that 50-mile radius.

And several doctors did testify that such visits are the next step in Hinckley's treatment. The ruling clearly states, though, that Hinckley must be supervised by his parents at all times. And it's not the first time that he'll be out in public. He has gone out on several outings with the staff from St. Elizabeth, that's the mental facility that he's lived at for the past 20 years.

And one former Justice Department lawyer said that the judge made the only decision that the law allowed him to make.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the judge's job is, is to evaluate the medical expert testimony about the risks to Mr. Hinckley and the state of his health and if he accepts that testimony, I don't think he has -- really does have much of a choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARENA: Now, the judge did place some very serious restrictions on Hinckley. For example, he has to follow a detailed itinerary. He's not allowed to contact the media or his ex-girlfriend. Still, former First Lady Nancy Reagan said in a statement that she was disappointed in the ruling and that she feared for the safety of the public. The Justice Department said that it, too, is disappointed. But, Paula, obviously, if anything goes wrong, these new rights can be rescinded.

ZAHN: Kelli Arena, thanks for joining us tonight.

The State Department is stepping up its warnings about terrorists for Americans in Saudi Arabia. Non-essential diplomats and all embassy family members today got the option of free flights home. While citing no specific threats, officials say the U.S. is still getting indications of possible attacks.

Thousands of U.S. troops have been sweeping through the Iraqi city of Samarra, looking for weapons and insurgents. It's a town that has been less than friendly to coalition forces. Senior international correspondent Nic Robertson reports on the raid and the reaction in Samarra.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Being processed for information, detainees picked up in Samarra are moved around a U.S. base. Intelligence they provide about anti-coalition elements critical as Operation Ivy Blizzard gains momentum.

Hours earlier, as the largest anti-insurgency operation in six months started, troops began by breaking down doors, searching for insurgents. Three thousand soldiers to seal off the rest of Sunni city of Samarra. By daybreak, tanks and troops in control as coalition commanders seek to halt attacks against U.S. troops.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This right here is a clear demonstration of our resolve to control the city of Samarra and hand it back to the peace-loving people of Samarra and Iraqis.

ROBERTSON: At key intersections, new checkpoints enforce the coalition plan to isolate insurgents, denying them the freedom of movement. No residents we found publicly supporting the crackdown.

"These checkpoints are a waste of time," says Ashmali (ph). "They block traffic, slow business and, besides, we don't have anything." Inside his workshop, Yasser Ali carves a gravestone for a former city resident. "The Americans are destroying public property like pavements. It's our property, it belongs to the people," he complains. "If we don't defend it, who will?" Operation Ivy Blizzard, though, not just a security crackdown.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is now going to be a tremendous focus also on bringing an economic benefit to the city of Samarra. There are funds that have come available that we will be able to infuse into the city.

ROBERTSON: After months of insurgency, the city still lacking what many others have, a council and a reliable police force. Until the money takes effect, little doubt among these commanders about what will happen next.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They'll watch us. They'll go into probably a massive reconnaissance or surveillance effort to see if we establish any patterns as we move into the city and as we move around the city. They may take us on with direct action, that would be a big mistake.

ROBERTSON: What U.S. troops are doing here in Samarra is typical of what they're doing in other restive towns in the so-called Sunni triangle and that's keeping pressure on the anti-coalition elements. Nic Robertson, CNN, Samarra, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: The U.S. has tried before to sway Arab hearts and minds through the media and now according to the "New York Times" the latest effort is an Arab-language news and entertainment network. Programs that will be produced near Washington and beamed by satellite to the Middle East. The network's name translates into English as "the free one."

Joining us from Baghdad for their take on this, two journalists who have been there firsthand and seen some of the changes unfolding in Iraq. "Newsweek" international correspondent Christian Caryl and Hassan Fatah, editor of the English newspaper "Iraq Today" and a regular contributor to "The New Republic."

Welcome, gentlemen. Good to see both of you. So Hassan, let's talk a little bit about what this Arab language news network is attempting to do. First of all, there has to be a recognition that the audience the U.S. government is trying to reach is very cynical about America. Will the message that comes through this programming be bought?

HASSAN FATAH, EDITOR, "IRAQ TODAY": I'll probably say skeptical more than cynical. I think they want to be optimistic and that's the reason they're not necessarily cynical. But I think that you have to understand that this is a place that knows propaganda inside and out.

For 35 years, Iraqis have faced all manner of propaganda and they've been able to sift through it. In essence, only to survive, you have to be able to know what the real news is and to be able to sift through it. So I don't know how much of an effect and how powerful something like this could be. As long as they think that this is not to be trusted or that it's propaganda.

ZAHN: Christian, describe to us what kind of a leap the U.S. government has to make here when there seems to be the perception that by and large Iraqis still view the United States as occupiers.

CHRISTIAN CARYL, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, "NEWSWEEK": Well, I think there are a lot of examples that illustrate that very differently. I think we can take, for example, the case of the capture of Saddam Hussein. In the past few days since he was captured I have heard every conspiracy theory in the rainbow from ordinary Iraqis on the street. I've heard that it wasn't the real Saddam, that it was a double. Saddam's daughter told us he was sedated. Other people have said that it is all a game, a plot, and very few Iraqis I have spoken with really believe the visible version of events that they've seen on TV over the past few days. And that's all compounded by the geopolitical situation they find themselves in. It's just encouraged these conspiratorial tendencies people have. It's going to be a very, very steep uphill climb.

ZAHN: So, Hassan, how does the U.S. government even attempt to chip away at these very firmly held beliefs?

FATAH: Well, certainly, in Iraq, actually, the solutions are probably far easier than you think they are. One of the ideas, for example, is, put a little hole in the security walls. Let Iraqis see what's going on. Now, of course, it's kind of figurative, as well. Let them see what's going on in the CPA. Let them see what's going on in the governing council. Put cameras in the governing council and let them see their government, if it is their government, representing them and working in their interest.

ZAHN: So, Christian, long term, do you have any optimism at this stage of the process that you'll ever get Iraqis, by and large, to view Americans as liberators?

CARYL: Well, that's a very good question. I think it is very much a long-term issue. It's going to be very hard to promote that image among ordinary Iraqis when the occupation is still very much in effect and ordinary Iraqis can be arrested by American soldiers at any time of day or night on charges which often seem somewhat arbitrary or flimsy.

People then are arrested and they go away and they're not heard of again for six months. The people of the -- who are members of the families of the arrested people have no legal recourse whatsoever. It's this kind of thing, you know, that makes something of a mockery of American promises of democracy to a lot of ordinary people here and that's just in the nature of the occupation. It is, after all, an occupation.

There are a lot of Americans here with excellent intentions who are doing great work, I think, very sincerely for the Iraqi people. But those good intentions constantly run up against the fact that this is an occupation and it's very hard to do that in a civilized way.

ZAHN: Gentlemen, we appreciate both of your insights. Christian Caryl, Hassan Fatah, thank you for joining us tonight.

The victims of Saddam Hussein. A family executed. How a grandmother wants justice served but says she's too scared to testify against him.

Also 5 million people live in Baghdad. Bill Hemmer is there and will show us the struggles to get even the most basic of necessities.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ZAHN: President Bush has said the Iraqi people will decide what happens to Saddam. It's not difficult to find Iraqis who have an opinion. Many whose family members vanished because they were considered political enemies of Saddam. Satinder Bindra reports from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This Sabeha Husen (ph) says all she has to live for is her 27 grandchildren. In 1981 she says Saddam Hussein's regime executed her husband, four sons and a pregnant daughter-in-law. Her family, she says, was suspected of plotting against the Iraqi dictator. Her youngest Amin Abas (ph) was then only 17 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I kept the marbles he used to play with in the streets thinking he would return and play with them. I just can't believe they took him.

BINDRA: Amin Abas, her husband and sons never returned nor did Sabeha get their bodies back. With no graves to grieve over, Sabeha says she can never have closure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): My entire family had nothing against Saddam.

BINDRA (on camera): This war memorial in Baghdad symbolizes what Saddam Hussein did to his country. In 1980 he led Iraq into a war with neighboring Iran. When the fighting finished in 1988, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis had been killed.

(voice-over): Many Iraqis say the best way of burying their country's shattered past and achieving a sense of national closure is to try Saddam fast.

Saddam Hussein is still in Iraq. He will stay in Iraq. He stand trail in Iraq. And he will be tried and sentenced in Iraq.

BINDRA: Analysts say it could take years and reveal some of the most grisly crimes against humanity. But they say it could also expose the ties France and the U.S. once had with the man and his regime, which in the '80s was seen as a counterbalance to Ayatollah Khomeini's Iran. Such political intricacies are lost Sabeha, who says she struggles to keep her family together by running a small vegetable store. Sabeha says she wants god it judge Saddam and put him and his followers in hell. She says she's too scared to testify against Saddam because he still has supporters in Iraq. And even if he's tried, Sabeha says it will take decades before the ghost of Saddam releases its grip.

Satindra Bindra, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Gas shortages in Baghdad are one of the hardships faced by the 5 million people there. We'll show you a slice of life in a city turned upside down.

The fall of Saddam Hussein, the capture of the Iraqi dictator. We'll be talking with our reporters in Iraq with their take on the most compelling images and memories from Iraq.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Life after the fallen capture of Saddam Hussein is dramatically changing for Iraq and at the moment not all Iraqis would say the change is for the better.

My colleague Bill Hemmer arrived in Baghdad earlier this week. A few impressions in his reporter's notebook.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): I think the word random best describes this city. Baghdad is the size of Chicago, 5 million live here. But even today the city is running short on so much.

(voice-over): This is one of the newest frustration for Iraqis, a shortage on gasoline. This line literally snakes down the road and around the corner and it goes behind for another half a mile. Earlier today we saw a line that was more than two miles in length. There is a shortage on supply and there are a great number of cars in this city. We talked to a cab driver who waits in line for gas eight hours a day every third day just to make money.

This is my business, he tells us. What kind of solution is that?

What kind of way is that to earn a living.

Now, the city's still working. It's open for business. In the middle of this picture insert 10s of thousands of American soldiers. You start to see just how random this picture has become.

(on camera): The U.S. Military is literally everywhere here in Baghdad. And once you start to see them mix in and around the Iraqi people, in and around the traffic, you start to see if you're a member of the Iraqi insurgency how easy a target the U.S. Military can be at the right time.

(voice-over): What's curious to me, though, is this, with such a shortage of gasoline, the streets are still packed with automobiles.

(on camera): You want traffic? Baghdad has plenty of traffic. Since the war ended the number of cars in the Iraqi capital has nearly tripled. Despite that, though, a certain control to the chaos. Yet not a single traffic light has worked in this town in months.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Vivid images and memories from Iraq. Our reporters join us live to share their thoughts on what surprised them the most. Nic Robertson in Samarra, Jane Arraf, Bill Hemmer, Rym Brahimi, all of them in Baghdad. Welcome back.

Nic, let me start with you this evening. Can you share with us a vivid memory of the more than tumultuous year you spent in and around Baghdad?

ROBERTSON: Well, Paula, one thing that sticks out in my mind was a month before the war began in Baghdad, just a very small incident. I was driving to work at the Ministry of Information where our office was and I passed one of those big murals of Saddam Hussein. And in that moment, I looked up at it and thought just at that moment you know, you're not going to be around much longer looking at this mural of Saddam Hussein.

These pictures that dominated around the city of Baghdad. I couldn't put my finger on why, but it was at that moment I began to realize the momentum to remove Saddam Hussein was beginning to build. It was a very strange moment. It was a moment, when in my mind, I began to see it as a reality that it was going to happen, Paula.

ZAHN: Jane, what will be frozen in your mind in the run up to this war?

ARRAF: Paula, there's one image that's absolutely seared into my mind. We're among the first people into Mosul after the Iraqi army melted away, in fact, hours before the U.S. military came. And we arrived at gun fire, places on fire. And this incredible frenzy of looting and there was one man who pulled this knife out of his shirt and started slashing a portrait of Saddam. And you have to understand, in this country, for years, that was one thing you could never even contemplate. Harming even a photograph of that man. And he slashed this picture and said it's been lies, it's all been lies. And it's just that incredible feeling of betrayal that these people have been cheated.

ZAHN: Rym, what is your impression?

BRAHIMI: Well, my most significant moment actually comes after the war. It's a moment when I just felt it was the realization of the precariousness of the situation.

You know, we were called on something that happened in town, in the al-Mansur (ph) district as we were called every day, an explosion here, gunfire there, we so got to do our jobs as journalists. And it turned out there was a raid, few people got killed in that raid. Iraqi civilians that happened to be there. It was a botched raid attempt and so me people got caught and somehow got killed.

But it was the realization the following day that among the people that got killed were three family members of a translator who has been our translator here in Baghdad for years. And so this suddenly hit home. This was not just a random story. These were real people dead, because of a current situation.

And then the worst thing about that story was actually that the poor translator wasn't able to actually figure out where the bodies of his relatives were for three weeks. And that was really painful sort of realization that it was never going it be that simple as, you know, going in, installing democracy and going out. There were going to be issues, there were going to be losses and it was going to be tragic on many -- the tragedy wouldn't stop at the end of the war basically.

ZAHN: Bill, on the air with you around the clock. You reported from Kuwait during the war. You are in Baghdad now on the ground for several days. What has surprised you the most about what you've witnessed?

HEMMER: I think coming in to Baghdad I felt that this was the jewel of the Arab world. That's what I was led to believe anyway. But as you come here, Paula and spend a few days on the ground, you see that this country, and this city of that matter, is really in need of just about everything.

People talk about progress and they talk about modernity, and they talk about democracy and all that's good. And all very thematic right now, because you have to learn to walk before you run. They're starting to take the in have an awful long way to go. That's what strikes me.

Having said that, Paula, I am absolutely amazed by the amount of patience you see on behalf of the Iraqi people here in Baghdad. They literally need everything. Every day, everything is just about pretty much of a hassle in this city. Yet, they exercise the patience right now. You might want to ask the question, how long will that patience last? For now, it's holding firm.

ZAHN: That's a very good question to ask particularly, as there's a suggestion that many Iraqis still perceive the U.S. as occupiers, not liberators. Nic, I want to come back to you for a moment, what signs of hope do you see?

ROBERTSON: Well, I think we are beginning to see more shops opening, people are beginning to stay out a bit later. There are cities in Iraq where you do begin to feel, particularly in the south, that the tension is beginning to melt away.

Baghdad is not in that situation yet and many of the towns in the Sunni triangle are not in that situation yet. But there is this slow, slow recovery that you can see pacing out over the months. So, I do see some hope there. I'm always an optimist and I do see hope here, but I also see many, many potential pitfalls, Paula.

ZAHN: Thank you, Nic. Let's move on to Jane now and I want a quick final thought from all now about what good things you think 2004 might bring. Jane, you first.

ARRAF: Well certainly the process in which Iraqis might get a possibility of getting their country back, Paula. Right now the worst thing for them, is, as Bill mentioned, the electricity, the water, all these day-to-day things are very difficult. But really, what they want in an overall sense is for them to feel that they own this country again. They don't want to see U.S. troops in the street any more, they want a say over their own lives. And that seems to be starting to happen. And it is, despite all the many problems, an absolutely amazing thing.

ZAHN: Rym, you get the final thought and a quick one on that.

BRAHIMI: I'll do my best, Paula.

I think the expectations, and the expectations have been from the beginning, I think you'll agree with me, is that people have looked up to America here no matter what. They have looked up to America and they've seen America as a multi-ethnic, multi-racial and multi- religious society and I think that was initially the disappointment that it was going to take so long for them to get there and all these ethnic divisions and religious divisions for the time being are still there and they feel accentuated. But I think people do look to some sort of model and they do hope that it's going to happen.

ZAHN: Well, thanks to all of you on assignment in Iraq. Nic Robertson, Bill Hemmer, Jane Arraf, Rym Brahimi. You're all doing very laudable work.

Thank you, all, for being with us tonight. Appreciate you spending time with us. Tomorrow night we'll be talking with the African-American daughter of former Senator Strom Thurman. And we're going to look back at the impeachment of President Clinton 5 years later.

Again, thanks for joining us tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next.

END

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Aired December 17, 2003 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, HOST: In focus tonight, an hour inside Iraq. Where is the country going after the capture of Saddam Hussein, as pro- Saddam rallies and attacks continue following the ex-dictator's capture?
U.S. forces launch an offensive, Operation Ivy Blizzard, to root out insurgents.

Plus, we'll take a look at new information from the capture of Saddam.

And one family who suffered at the hands of the Iraqi tyrant speaks out on what it thinks Saddam's fate should be.

All of that ahead tonight.

But first, here's what you need to know right now.

After 23 or nearly 23 years after shooting President Reagan, John Hinckley, Jr., will be allowed out of a mental hospital without an escort. A federal judge today ruled Hinckley can make unsupervised visits with his parents.

Senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is here with the details. Good evening, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.

ZAHN: This isn't exactly what John Hinckley wanted, is it? Even as outraged as some people are.

TOOBIN: It is not. And in fact, it is not that big a change from what's been going on. Because of prior court rulings, John Hinckley has gone out on supervised visits more than 200 times.

What's different now is that the supervision, instead of by hospital officials, will be by his parents. It's really not that dramatic a difference, but it is better for Hinckley.

ZAHN: Do you think he represents a danger to society?

TOOBIN: The government's own expert said that he was not a danger. Hinckley's expert said he was not a danger. I couldn't see any evidence, based on my review of the opinion and of the, of the hearing, that said he was a danger.

Is that 100 percent guarantee? No. But it does not appear like he's any sort of danger.

ZAHN: What requirements does he have to meet when he makes these visits?

TOOBIN: He has to put forth a schedule before he goes, a detailed agenda of where he's going. He has to be with his parents 100 percent of the time. He has to, after he comes back, report on precisely what he did. Secret Service can monitor him from a distance and surely will.

So this is far from a carte blanche to just go wherever he wants.

ZAHN: And in spite of what you said about your examination of the records, the prosecutors still maintain John Hinckley remains deceptive.

TOOBIN: They're...

ZAHN: What are they looking for?

TOOBIN: They...

ZAHN: Where are they looking for him to cross the line?

TOOBIN: Their problem is, they lost the trial 20-plus years ago. And under the rules of people who are acquitted by insanity, if you, if you're -- unless you can prove you're a continuing danger, you can't keep him locked up. And they have not proved that he's a continuing danger. Therefore, Judge Friedman had almost no choice but to gradually lessen the requirements.

ZAHN: All right, Jeffrey Toobin, thanks so much.

Tonight we're devoting the rest of the hour to Iraq.

There were several major developments this evening. For that, we are bringing you team coverage from across the country.

CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is live in Iraq, where U.S. troops led raids aimed at insurgents. CNN correspondent Alfonso Van Marsh (ph) is reporting from Tikrit. CNN anchor Bill Hemmer is in Baghdad. And CNN security analyst Kelly McCann is also in Baghdad.

We begin with Nic Robertson tonight. Good evening, Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Paula.

Well, Operation Ivy Blizzard got under way about 24 hours ago. Already some Iraqi insurgents have been taken into coalition custody, at least 30 so far. We saw them on this base just outside of Samarra several hours ago. They were being processed by coalition officials.

It is hoped by the coalition offices interrogating them that they will give them information which will lead the coalition to other Iraqi insurgents.

The operation that began about 24 hours ago was the biggest operation by the coalition in the last six months. It involved 3,000 troops, Bradley fighting vehicles, Abrams tanks, Apache helicopters, C-130s, F-16 fighter aircraft. It targeted insurgents inside the town of Samarra. It ringed Samarra with troops.

There are still security checkpoints on the outskirts of Samarra, and according to coalition officials, those checkpoints will remain in place.

But they say this isn't just a security operation. They say in the coming weeks, they plan to start pouring money into Samarra to build up the government -- build up the city's council to make the police force there something that can be relied upon. They say that this twin approach of tough security, getting the insurgents, and putting money in will convince the population here that the coalition is here to help.

For more on the situation in Iraq, I'm joined by my colleague Alfonso Van Marsh in Tikrit.

ALFONSO VAN MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.

Yes, here in Saddam Hussein's home town, one can call it a tale of two shoulders. Over to my left, one of Saddam Hussein's former palaces, now turned into a U.S. military complex (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- military complex, rather.

I was saying that what's going on here is, soldiers are still buzzing over news that Saddam Hussein was captured. Many of these troops here at the 4th Infantry Division were part of that historic raid over the weekend.

And over my right shoulder here, downtown Tikrit, once again without power at night. What's interesting to note is that there have been protests here, protests by pro-Saddam loyalists.

It's important to keep n mind that Saddam Hussein brought relative prosperity and development to this part of town. And news that the former Iraqi leader is in U.S. custody is not going over well. Iraqi police clashed with those loyalists in order to break up those demonstrations.

U.S. service members also at risk here, an improvised explosive device or a car road bomb went off, injuring three (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- excuse me, three soldiers a few days ago, two of them injured seriously.

It's all proof that here in Saddam Hussein's home town, not everything is going well for U.S. soldiers on the home front.

And I understand the story is same in Baghdad, where we turn to our -- my colleague, Bill Hemmer. Bill?

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCOR: Alfonso, thank you. A short time ago, word coming in to us here in Baghdad, a U.S. service member, a member of the U.S. Army, shot and killed by small arms fire just three miles north of Baghdad. Another U.S. soldier wounded as a result of that incident. Not much more information available.

That brings the total now to 200 U.S. service member killed by hostile combat fire here in Iraq since the president declared the end of major combat operations back on the first of May.

Elsewhere here in Baghdad, relatively quit and calm, according to Iraqi standards. The dawn was broken, though, right about 6:00 a.m. local time. A huge fireball explosion rocketing toward the sky as a truck exploded in central Baghdad.

It's not clear exactly what took place here. Iraqi police are saying that the truck was headed for a local police station when it blew up too soon. Whatever the story, and oftentimes it's difficult to figure out what the story is here, 10 dead at least, and 15 others are wounded.

Also, the Iraqi Governing Council met with reporters again today, talking about Saddam Hussein and his current condition. They insist that the former Iraqi leader has never been taken out of this country since he was apprehended last weekend. He has stayed here and will remain here until his trial begins.

When that date is set, though, is an open question tonight.

Also in Baghdad, CNN security analyst Kelly McCann is here as well. Kelly?

KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Thank you, Bill.

An interesting quiet day, Paula. Basically, we woke up to the explosion. That was followed by two significant firefights near an Iraqi police location. Later on in the day, a bomb maker not too far from where we're staying actually had an inadvertent detonation and blew himself up, killing himself and several other people.

On the way to various sites throughout the day, we did pass over the route where two antipersonnel mines had been configured to be command detonated. In other words, they were improvised explosive devices.

What's odd is that they were found first in the morning, and then they were replaced later in the afternoon on the same route.

And lastly, of course, we spent only two hours at any location here in Baghdad, where we didn't hear gunfire, and that was at the Baghdad International Airport, Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks so much for the update, CNN security analyst Kelly McCann in Baghdad. Appreciate that.

If Saddam Hussein could hide for seven months, maybe there are weapons of mass destruction yet to be found in Iraq. And so the search goes on. As the CIA interrogates Saddam, hoping he may ultimately give up some information, national security correspondent David Ensor has this update on the search for weapons of mass destruction.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq's vast deserts is like looking for a needle in a haystack, and knowledgeable officials privately concede it has not gone well.

David Kay, the CIA man leading the search, is home for the holidays. His team in Iraq has been cut back to beef up on U.S. efforts against insurgents. Partly for personal reasons, sources say Kay has not even decided whether he wants to go back to finish the job in the new year.

Saddam Hussein, the prisoner, has offered nothing on the weapons except denials thus far, officials say. There is disagreement over whether his capture will convince Iraqi scientists to reveal more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that the incentive to cooperate is probably greater now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The security situation in Iraq is so unstable that even with Saddam captive, it's unlikely that anyone's going to feel more secure until the insurgency itself disappears.

ENSOR: President Bush and his advisers counsel patience. The weapons have not been found yet, says the president. Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said the little hole where Saddam hid shows how hard the search for weapons is.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Think of the quantity of biological weapons that could fit in that hole alone, could kill tens of thousands of human beings.

ENSOR: After all, it wasn't until the wind blew sand off some buried Iraqi war planes that even they were found.

But all Kay has found is evidence of weapons programs in cold storage, blueprints, components, dual-use labs, as well as a missile program that cheated on U.N. rules -- but no actual weapons.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If there are not weapons of mass destruction, what happened to the ones we know he had the last time we had a U.N. inspection team in there? Where did they go?

ENSOR: The Iraqis said they had destroyed everything, but they failed to prove it. Administration critics say it looks like Saddam was bluffing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He thought he could cooperate enough and give two messages, one to the world, I have nothing to hide, and two, to his neighbors, I've got a lot to hide, don't mess with me. It turns out it was a major miscalculation.

ENSOR (on camera): If it does turn out that there are no weapons, then it would appear that Saddam Hussein is not the only one who miscalculated.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: The raid on Saddam Hussein -- new video of the mission to find him in a hole.

Also, a grandmother shares her story of how Saddam Hussein executed her husband and four sons, and why she is afraid to testify against him.

And the United States is launching a new TV network aimed the Arab world. Will it win over Arab hearts and minds?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Tonight we want to share with you new video of the raid that netted Saddam Hussein. CNN was the first to break the story. Now you'll see and hear what it was like on the mission to find him.

Alfonso Van Marsh has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAN MARSH (voice-over): Bradley armored fighting vehicles guarding the U.S. Army's Raider Base in Tikrit. When I noticed these 26-ton beasts had left their position Saturday night, it was my first clue something was happening, something big.

Later that evening, troops gathered by the dozens at a central area at the base. The Bradleys in a convoy of heavily armed Humvees had returned from what turned out to be an extraordinary raid.

I captured these extraordinary images of military leadership giving a pep talk, of soldiers taking a few pictures of their own. We later learned they were celebrating the capture of Saddam Hussein.

New pictures, home video taken by a staff sergeant on the ground and seen first on CNN, offer insight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) back there.

VAN MARSH: If the troops look a little dazed, that's because their commander, Colonel James Hickey, just confirmed that their raid ended with Iraq's former leader in U.S. custody.

That warning from Colonel Hickey for troops not to talk about the raid until an official announcement by military top brass.

PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR: We got him.

VAN MARSH: But CNN's team of reporters broke that story hours earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VAN MARSH: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE), where there has been some very interesting activity in the last 24 hours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAN MARSH: An Army specialist on the raid described what it was like to have to wait.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like Christmas, when you can't open your gifts, and you have to wait until Christmas Day, that was the feeling.

VAN MARSH: Christmas came a little early for U.S. troops here in Tikrit. The capture of Saddam Hussein a moral boost for U.S. service members who have been here for months and will likely spend the holiday season here as well.

Alfonso Van Marsh, CNN, Tikrit, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: The politics of a post-Saddam Iraq. We'll be talking with former senator Bob Kerrey about how the race for the White House changes because of this.

And the U.S. launches a new offensive aimed at halting the attacks in Iraq. We'll have the latest on Operation -- of the Operation Ivy Blizzard.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: You can count on the capture of Saddam Hussein to have a political effect on the race for president of the United States. The question is, just how much?

Joining us now, former Democratic senator Bob Kerrey. He is now president of New School University here in New York. In Baghdad tonight, "CROSSFIRE" co-host Tucker Carlson, and from Washington, our regular contributor, Joe Klein of "TIME" magazine.

Welcome, gentlemen.

Tucker, let's start with you first this evening. Do you believe that the war in Iraq will be a determining issue in the race for the presidency?

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": I think it will be. I mean, I think it will be in a more general sense, as it represents foreign policy and threats from abroad and the overall war on terror.

But specifically, yes, for two reasons. One, it's clearly the issue that's energizing the president's opponents. I mean, Howard Dean supporters, by and large, appear to me to be animated by unhappiness over the war in Iraq. And, two, the economy has effectively disappeared as an effective issue for Democrats. That may change. I mean, you know, the election is not for 11 months.

But right now, that seems like the issue. And it should be, it's the most important one.

ZAHN: Do you agree, Senator Kerrey?

BOB KERREY (D), FORMER SENATOR: Yes, I think in the short term it unquestionably has an impact. I hope it has the impact on the president of not feeling safe that he can go to funerals of American servicemen that have been killed over there.

I mean, I have supported the war. I think it's great news for Iraqi people, I think it's likely to increase the chances that the policy itself is going to work. And, I mean, I hope it not only has an impact upon Democratic candidates, I hope it has a impact on the president as well.

ZAHN: Joe?

JOE KLEIN, "TIME": Well, I think that it depends on what happens on the ground. You know, it certainly will be the central issue of this campaign. If things go badly over the next six months, if we're not able to set up a provisional government in next July, and there's, you know, violence during the first months of the new year, then it's going to work against the president, obviously.

But if things do go well, and if we do set up a provisional government in July, the president will be able to point to a major success, and the Democrats will have nothing to counter that.

KERREY: Well, except they will have something to counter with it. Which, I mean, the ground zero for terrorism against the United States is not Iraq, it's eastern Afghanistan and western Pakistan. That's ground zero for al Qaeda, that's where they continue to have their base of operations. And we've got a land war going on in Afghanistan right now.

So there's a significant amount of exposure. I hope the Democrats -- I very much like what Howard Dean said. That he said that it's great news for the American people, great news for American soldiers, for the Iraqi people and for the president. It is a victory. In many ways it justifies what the president has done.

But this war by no means is over. And as I said, ground zero for terrorism is not Iraq, it's eastern Afghanistan and western Pakistan.

ZAHN: And Tucker, as you know, there have been a lot of people who've suggested because of resources being moved into Iraq, the war on terror in Afghanistan has been severely compromised.

CARLSON: Well, I mean, that may be true, I'll take the senator's word for it. But that also is subject to change. I mean, Osama bin Laden himself announced, publicly, as you know, that the new front in the war against the United States and the West is going to be Iraq.

And there's no reason to believe that's not true. I mean, there's real concern, and there's a lot of evidence that foreign jihadists are moving into Iraq.

And I think the whole question of what happens next in the future of Iraq hangs on the ability of the new Iraqi government, specifically its police, to get control of terrorism. It's a very, very dangerous job, and they're the only ones who can do it.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) only ones who know the difference between a native Iraqi and a Jordanian.

KERREY: But that's in the past (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I mean, yes, it's spreading to, it's going to Iraq, but the heart of the beast is in eastern Afghanistan, that's where al Qaeda lives. That's where (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- Osama bin Laden -- Osama bin Laden blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, not Saddam Hussein.

I, again, I think what the president did in Iraq was right, but this doesn't decrease the threat of terrorism in the United States of America. Afghanistan is and eastern and western Pakistan, in my judgment, is ground zero for that effort.

ZAHN: Joe, jump in here.

KLEIN: Yes, well, I think that that Bob is right on the merits, but maybe not on the politics of it. I think that if you have a stable situation in Afghanistan, and the war in Iraq seems a tremendous victory for the president, that's what people will remember.

If the war in Iraq seems to have been a mistake, which is quite a strong possibility, because I don't see the situation on the ground there getting any better, then it's going to be a big problem for the president.

And it all fits into the larger picture, which is, did George Bush make the right decision in fighting terrorism to go into Iraq? Was that the right way to go about fighting the war on terrorism? And I think that that's an open question, and that is the question that this next election may well answer.

ZAHN: The other question, Tucker, that's being raised is, to what extent the president's reelection campaign is affecting policy in Iraq. You want to take a stab at that?

CARLSON: You know, that's, I think, a completely valid question. I mean, his opponents have charged that there is going to be some kind of mass pullout before the election. I don't think that's true. I think it's pretty clear they're going to have at least 100,000 American troops in Iraq next November.

I will say, here, you know, that's one of the many theories floating around. I mean, from what I can tell, it's a pretty common view among Iraqis here that, you know, Israel and other assorted Zionists are running the whole enterprise.

Which is another way of saying there are a lot of conspiracy theories. What really matters in the end is whether the country stops being, you know, a haven for violence, which it obviously is right now.

I mean that in the end, reality matters. If the country gets better, it's good for the president. If it doesn't, it's bad.

ZAHN: Senator, how do the Democrats confront this? I know you said you agreed with some of what Howard Dean said, that he was widely criticized for saying, that maybe soldiers weren't necessarily safer but Americans were.

There is a belief that he's going to lose some momentum because of the capture of Saddam Hussein.

KERREY: My, I, it remains to be seen whether or not he'd lose momentum. I mean, I don't have advice for the Democratic candidates. I mean, if I'd have get -- if Howard Dean had followed my advice six months ago, he wouldn't be a front-runner. So, I mean, I'm a bystander in this campaign.

I mean, I'm -- I'll score the point a second time, though. I do hope that the president now feels sufficiently confident, as a consequence of this success, that he'll start going to funerals of American soldiers that are dying in this war. I just...

ZAHN: Are you bitter about that?

KERREY: I'm not bitter about it, but I'm offended by it. I know it's a political calculus. I know they're worried about the exposure. But I don't think that causes Americans to turn off. I think it causes Americans quite the contrary. I think it (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it causes them to feel more serious about the effort, more committed to make sure it's a success.

ZAHN: What, Joe, do the administration see as the risk, as if the president did attempt some of these funerals?

KLEIN: Well, I think that up until the capture of Saddam Hussein, there wasn't very (UNINTELLIGIBLE) much good news coming out of Iraq, and this would have just reemphasized the bad news.

I fearlessly predict that you may see the president doing a bit more of this, especially if the situation on the ground begins to improve in Iraq.

I mean, what you have is the confluence here of politics and necessity. It's good politics, or it's necessary politics, for the, for, you know, the president to move sovereignty toward the Iraqis.

But I also think that on the ground there, the Iraqis are getting -- the Iraqi people have very mixed to negative feelings about this continuing American occupation. And the sooner that we could get a functioning government up and running in Iraq, the better.

ZAHN: Joe Klein, former senator Bob Kerrey, Tucker Carlson, thank you for all of your insights.

Thousands of troops sweep into Samarra to catch suspected insurgents. The goal is to keep the pressure up on anticoalition elements. Is it working?

And Saddam Hussein nearly killed an entire family. Now, with no grave to grieve over, one woman searches for closure and justice for Saddam.

And tomorrow, our interview with the African-American daughter of Senator Strom Thurmond.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back.

Here's what you need to know right now at the bottom of the hour.

The man who tried to kill President Reagan will be allowed to leave a mental hospital without supervision. A judge ruled today John Hinckley, Jr., can visit his family.

Justice correspondent Kelli Arena is standing by in Washington with the details. Good evening, Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Paula.

Well, you're right, a judge ruled that Hinckley will be allowed six day visits with his parents within a 50-mile radius of Washington, D.C., and those will be followed by two overnight visits, also within that 50-mile radius.

And several doctors did testify that such visits are the next step in Hinckley's treatment. The ruling clearly states, though, that Hinckley must be supervised by his parents at all times. And it's not the first time that he'll be out in public. He has gone out on several outings with the staff from St. Elizabeth, that's the mental facility that he's lived at for the past 20 years.

And one former Justice Department lawyer said that the judge made the only decision that the law allowed him to make.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the judge's job is, is to evaluate the medical expert testimony about the risks to Mr. Hinckley and the state of his health and if he accepts that testimony, I don't think he has -- really does have much of a choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARENA: Now, the judge did place some very serious restrictions on Hinckley. For example, he has to follow a detailed itinerary. He's not allowed to contact the media or his ex-girlfriend. Still, former First Lady Nancy Reagan said in a statement that she was disappointed in the ruling and that she feared for the safety of the public. The Justice Department said that it, too, is disappointed. But, Paula, obviously, if anything goes wrong, these new rights can be rescinded.

ZAHN: Kelli Arena, thanks for joining us tonight.

The State Department is stepping up its warnings about terrorists for Americans in Saudi Arabia. Non-essential diplomats and all embassy family members today got the option of free flights home. While citing no specific threats, officials say the U.S. is still getting indications of possible attacks.

Thousands of U.S. troops have been sweeping through the Iraqi city of Samarra, looking for weapons and insurgents. It's a town that has been less than friendly to coalition forces. Senior international correspondent Nic Robertson reports on the raid and the reaction in Samarra.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Being processed for information, detainees picked up in Samarra are moved around a U.S. base. Intelligence they provide about anti-coalition elements critical as Operation Ivy Blizzard gains momentum.

Hours earlier, as the largest anti-insurgency operation in six months started, troops began by breaking down doors, searching for insurgents. Three thousand soldiers to seal off the rest of Sunni city of Samarra. By daybreak, tanks and troops in control as coalition commanders seek to halt attacks against U.S. troops.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This right here is a clear demonstration of our resolve to control the city of Samarra and hand it back to the peace-loving people of Samarra and Iraqis.

ROBERTSON: At key intersections, new checkpoints enforce the coalition plan to isolate insurgents, denying them the freedom of movement. No residents we found publicly supporting the crackdown.

"These checkpoints are a waste of time," says Ashmali (ph). "They block traffic, slow business and, besides, we don't have anything." Inside his workshop, Yasser Ali carves a gravestone for a former city resident. "The Americans are destroying public property like pavements. It's our property, it belongs to the people," he complains. "If we don't defend it, who will?" Operation Ivy Blizzard, though, not just a security crackdown.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is now going to be a tremendous focus also on bringing an economic benefit to the city of Samarra. There are funds that have come available that we will be able to infuse into the city.

ROBERTSON: After months of insurgency, the city still lacking what many others have, a council and a reliable police force. Until the money takes effect, little doubt among these commanders about what will happen next.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They'll watch us. They'll go into probably a massive reconnaissance or surveillance effort to see if we establish any patterns as we move into the city and as we move around the city. They may take us on with direct action, that would be a big mistake.

ROBERTSON: What U.S. troops are doing here in Samarra is typical of what they're doing in other restive towns in the so-called Sunni triangle and that's keeping pressure on the anti-coalition elements. Nic Robertson, CNN, Samarra, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: The U.S. has tried before to sway Arab hearts and minds through the media and now according to the "New York Times" the latest effort is an Arab-language news and entertainment network. Programs that will be produced near Washington and beamed by satellite to the Middle East. The network's name translates into English as "the free one."

Joining us from Baghdad for their take on this, two journalists who have been there firsthand and seen some of the changes unfolding in Iraq. "Newsweek" international correspondent Christian Caryl and Hassan Fatah, editor of the English newspaper "Iraq Today" and a regular contributor to "The New Republic."

Welcome, gentlemen. Good to see both of you. So Hassan, let's talk a little bit about what this Arab language news network is attempting to do. First of all, there has to be a recognition that the audience the U.S. government is trying to reach is very cynical about America. Will the message that comes through this programming be bought?

HASSAN FATAH, EDITOR, "IRAQ TODAY": I'll probably say skeptical more than cynical. I think they want to be optimistic and that's the reason they're not necessarily cynical. But I think that you have to understand that this is a place that knows propaganda inside and out.

For 35 years, Iraqis have faced all manner of propaganda and they've been able to sift through it. In essence, only to survive, you have to be able to know what the real news is and to be able to sift through it. So I don't know how much of an effect and how powerful something like this could be. As long as they think that this is not to be trusted or that it's propaganda.

ZAHN: Christian, describe to us what kind of a leap the U.S. government has to make here when there seems to be the perception that by and large Iraqis still view the United States as occupiers.

CHRISTIAN CARYL, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, "NEWSWEEK": Well, I think there are a lot of examples that illustrate that very differently. I think we can take, for example, the case of the capture of Saddam Hussein. In the past few days since he was captured I have heard every conspiracy theory in the rainbow from ordinary Iraqis on the street. I've heard that it wasn't the real Saddam, that it was a double. Saddam's daughter told us he was sedated. Other people have said that it is all a game, a plot, and very few Iraqis I have spoken with really believe the visible version of events that they've seen on TV over the past few days. And that's all compounded by the geopolitical situation they find themselves in. It's just encouraged these conspiratorial tendencies people have. It's going to be a very, very steep uphill climb.

ZAHN: So, Hassan, how does the U.S. government even attempt to chip away at these very firmly held beliefs?

FATAH: Well, certainly, in Iraq, actually, the solutions are probably far easier than you think they are. One of the ideas, for example, is, put a little hole in the security walls. Let Iraqis see what's going on. Now, of course, it's kind of figurative, as well. Let them see what's going on in the CPA. Let them see what's going on in the governing council. Put cameras in the governing council and let them see their government, if it is their government, representing them and working in their interest.

ZAHN: So, Christian, long term, do you have any optimism at this stage of the process that you'll ever get Iraqis, by and large, to view Americans as liberators?

CARYL: Well, that's a very good question. I think it is very much a long-term issue. It's going to be very hard to promote that image among ordinary Iraqis when the occupation is still very much in effect and ordinary Iraqis can be arrested by American soldiers at any time of day or night on charges which often seem somewhat arbitrary or flimsy.

People then are arrested and they go away and they're not heard of again for six months. The people of the -- who are members of the families of the arrested people have no legal recourse whatsoever. It's this kind of thing, you know, that makes something of a mockery of American promises of democracy to a lot of ordinary people here and that's just in the nature of the occupation. It is, after all, an occupation.

There are a lot of Americans here with excellent intentions who are doing great work, I think, very sincerely for the Iraqi people. But those good intentions constantly run up against the fact that this is an occupation and it's very hard to do that in a civilized way.

ZAHN: Gentlemen, we appreciate both of your insights. Christian Caryl, Hassan Fatah, thank you for joining us tonight.

The victims of Saddam Hussein. A family executed. How a grandmother wants justice served but says she's too scared to testify against him.

Also 5 million people live in Baghdad. Bill Hemmer is there and will show us the struggles to get even the most basic of necessities.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ZAHN: President Bush has said the Iraqi people will decide what happens to Saddam. It's not difficult to find Iraqis who have an opinion. Many whose family members vanished because they were considered political enemies of Saddam. Satinder Bindra reports from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This Sabeha Husen (ph) says all she has to live for is her 27 grandchildren. In 1981 she says Saddam Hussein's regime executed her husband, four sons and a pregnant daughter-in-law. Her family, she says, was suspected of plotting against the Iraqi dictator. Her youngest Amin Abas (ph) was then only 17 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I kept the marbles he used to play with in the streets thinking he would return and play with them. I just can't believe they took him.

BINDRA: Amin Abas, her husband and sons never returned nor did Sabeha get their bodies back. With no graves to grieve over, Sabeha says she can never have closure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): My entire family had nothing against Saddam.

BINDRA (on camera): This war memorial in Baghdad symbolizes what Saddam Hussein did to his country. In 1980 he led Iraq into a war with neighboring Iran. When the fighting finished in 1988, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis had been killed.

(voice-over): Many Iraqis say the best way of burying their country's shattered past and achieving a sense of national closure is to try Saddam fast.

Saddam Hussein is still in Iraq. He will stay in Iraq. He stand trail in Iraq. And he will be tried and sentenced in Iraq.

BINDRA: Analysts say it could take years and reveal some of the most grisly crimes against humanity. But they say it could also expose the ties France and the U.S. once had with the man and his regime, which in the '80s was seen as a counterbalance to Ayatollah Khomeini's Iran. Such political intricacies are lost Sabeha, who says she struggles to keep her family together by running a small vegetable store. Sabeha says she wants god it judge Saddam and put him and his followers in hell. She says she's too scared to testify against Saddam because he still has supporters in Iraq. And even if he's tried, Sabeha says it will take decades before the ghost of Saddam releases its grip.

Satindra Bindra, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Gas shortages in Baghdad are one of the hardships faced by the 5 million people there. We'll show you a slice of life in a city turned upside down.

The fall of Saddam Hussein, the capture of the Iraqi dictator. We'll be talking with our reporters in Iraq with their take on the most compelling images and memories from Iraq.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Life after the fallen capture of Saddam Hussein is dramatically changing for Iraq and at the moment not all Iraqis would say the change is for the better.

My colleague Bill Hemmer arrived in Baghdad earlier this week. A few impressions in his reporter's notebook.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): I think the word random best describes this city. Baghdad is the size of Chicago, 5 million live here. But even today the city is running short on so much.

(voice-over): This is one of the newest frustration for Iraqis, a shortage on gasoline. This line literally snakes down the road and around the corner and it goes behind for another half a mile. Earlier today we saw a line that was more than two miles in length. There is a shortage on supply and there are a great number of cars in this city. We talked to a cab driver who waits in line for gas eight hours a day every third day just to make money.

This is my business, he tells us. What kind of solution is that?

What kind of way is that to earn a living.

Now, the city's still working. It's open for business. In the middle of this picture insert 10s of thousands of American soldiers. You start to see just how random this picture has become.

(on camera): The U.S. Military is literally everywhere here in Baghdad. And once you start to see them mix in and around the Iraqi people, in and around the traffic, you start to see if you're a member of the Iraqi insurgency how easy a target the U.S. Military can be at the right time.

(voice-over): What's curious to me, though, is this, with such a shortage of gasoline, the streets are still packed with automobiles.

(on camera): You want traffic? Baghdad has plenty of traffic. Since the war ended the number of cars in the Iraqi capital has nearly tripled. Despite that, though, a certain control to the chaos. Yet not a single traffic light has worked in this town in months.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Vivid images and memories from Iraq. Our reporters join us live to share their thoughts on what surprised them the most. Nic Robertson in Samarra, Jane Arraf, Bill Hemmer, Rym Brahimi, all of them in Baghdad. Welcome back.

Nic, let me start with you this evening. Can you share with us a vivid memory of the more than tumultuous year you spent in and around Baghdad?

ROBERTSON: Well, Paula, one thing that sticks out in my mind was a month before the war began in Baghdad, just a very small incident. I was driving to work at the Ministry of Information where our office was and I passed one of those big murals of Saddam Hussein. And in that moment, I looked up at it and thought just at that moment you know, you're not going to be around much longer looking at this mural of Saddam Hussein.

These pictures that dominated around the city of Baghdad. I couldn't put my finger on why, but it was at that moment I began to realize the momentum to remove Saddam Hussein was beginning to build. It was a very strange moment. It was a moment, when in my mind, I began to see it as a reality that it was going to happen, Paula.

ZAHN: Jane, what will be frozen in your mind in the run up to this war?

ARRAF: Paula, there's one image that's absolutely seared into my mind. We're among the first people into Mosul after the Iraqi army melted away, in fact, hours before the U.S. military came. And we arrived at gun fire, places on fire. And this incredible frenzy of looting and there was one man who pulled this knife out of his shirt and started slashing a portrait of Saddam. And you have to understand, in this country, for years, that was one thing you could never even contemplate. Harming even a photograph of that man. And he slashed this picture and said it's been lies, it's all been lies. And it's just that incredible feeling of betrayal that these people have been cheated.

ZAHN: Rym, what is your impression?

BRAHIMI: Well, my most significant moment actually comes after the war. It's a moment when I just felt it was the realization of the precariousness of the situation.

You know, we were called on something that happened in town, in the al-Mansur (ph) district as we were called every day, an explosion here, gunfire there, we so got to do our jobs as journalists. And it turned out there was a raid, few people got killed in that raid. Iraqi civilians that happened to be there. It was a botched raid attempt and so me people got caught and somehow got killed.

But it was the realization the following day that among the people that got killed were three family members of a translator who has been our translator here in Baghdad for years. And so this suddenly hit home. This was not just a random story. These were real people dead, because of a current situation.

And then the worst thing about that story was actually that the poor translator wasn't able to actually figure out where the bodies of his relatives were for three weeks. And that was really painful sort of realization that it was never going it be that simple as, you know, going in, installing democracy and going out. There were going to be issues, there were going to be losses and it was going to be tragic on many -- the tragedy wouldn't stop at the end of the war basically.

ZAHN: Bill, on the air with you around the clock. You reported from Kuwait during the war. You are in Baghdad now on the ground for several days. What has surprised you the most about what you've witnessed?

HEMMER: I think coming in to Baghdad I felt that this was the jewel of the Arab world. That's what I was led to believe anyway. But as you come here, Paula and spend a few days on the ground, you see that this country, and this city of that matter, is really in need of just about everything.

People talk about progress and they talk about modernity, and they talk about democracy and all that's good. And all very thematic right now, because you have to learn to walk before you run. They're starting to take the in have an awful long way to go. That's what strikes me.

Having said that, Paula, I am absolutely amazed by the amount of patience you see on behalf of the Iraqi people here in Baghdad. They literally need everything. Every day, everything is just about pretty much of a hassle in this city. Yet, they exercise the patience right now. You might want to ask the question, how long will that patience last? For now, it's holding firm.

ZAHN: That's a very good question to ask particularly, as there's a suggestion that many Iraqis still perceive the U.S. as occupiers, not liberators. Nic, I want to come back to you for a moment, what signs of hope do you see?

ROBERTSON: Well, I think we are beginning to see more shops opening, people are beginning to stay out a bit later. There are cities in Iraq where you do begin to feel, particularly in the south, that the tension is beginning to melt away.

Baghdad is not in that situation yet and many of the towns in the Sunni triangle are not in that situation yet. But there is this slow, slow recovery that you can see pacing out over the months. So, I do see some hope there. I'm always an optimist and I do see hope here, but I also see many, many potential pitfalls, Paula.

ZAHN: Thank you, Nic. Let's move on to Jane now and I want a quick final thought from all now about what good things you think 2004 might bring. Jane, you first.

ARRAF: Well certainly the process in which Iraqis might get a possibility of getting their country back, Paula. Right now the worst thing for them, is, as Bill mentioned, the electricity, the water, all these day-to-day things are very difficult. But really, what they want in an overall sense is for them to feel that they own this country again. They don't want to see U.S. troops in the street any more, they want a say over their own lives. And that seems to be starting to happen. And it is, despite all the many problems, an absolutely amazing thing.

ZAHN: Rym, you get the final thought and a quick one on that.

BRAHIMI: I'll do my best, Paula.

I think the expectations, and the expectations have been from the beginning, I think you'll agree with me, is that people have looked up to America here no matter what. They have looked up to America and they've seen America as a multi-ethnic, multi-racial and multi- religious society and I think that was initially the disappointment that it was going to take so long for them to get there and all these ethnic divisions and religious divisions for the time being are still there and they feel accentuated. But I think people do look to some sort of model and they do hope that it's going to happen.

ZAHN: Well, thanks to all of you on assignment in Iraq. Nic Robertson, Bill Hemmer, Jane Arraf, Rym Brahimi. You're all doing very laudable work.

Thank you, all, for being with us tonight. Appreciate you spending time with us. Tomorrow night we'll be talking with the African-American daughter of former Senator Strom Thurman. And we're going to look back at the impeachment of President Clinton 5 years later.

Again, thanks for joining us tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next.

END

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