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Interview With Senator John Kerry and Teresa Heinz Kerry; Pete Rose Admits Betting on Baseball

Aired January 5, 2004 - 20:00   ET


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Welcome. I'm Paula Zahn. It's Monday, January 5, 2004.

ZAHN (voice-over): My conversation with the Democratic presidential candidate Senator John Kerry and his outspoken wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry.

TERESA HEINZ KERRY, WIFE OF JOHN KERRY: I have never been muzzled. It's the one thing no one could ever do, is take my freedom of expression.

ZAHN: They talk about pressure and public scrutiny on the campaign trail in their first interview together since the campaign began.

Denials for 14 years.

PETE ROSE, FORMER MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER: Regardless of what the commissioner said today, I did not bet on baseball.

ZAHN: Pete Rose finally admits he bet on baseball. Will that be enough to unlock the doors to the Hall of fame?

ROSE: I am a baseball person. Statistics-wise, I belong in the Hall of Fame.

ZAHN: I'll be talking with the former baseball commissioner whose investigation helped ban one of the greatest players from the game.

And the duchess of York joins us, as Britain prepares to open the first inquest into the death of Princess Diana.


ZAHN: Those stories and more straight ahead, but, first, here's what you need to know right here at the top of the hour.

The CIA says the latest tape from Osama bin Laden does appear to be authentic and to have been made recently. This afternoon, I asked Oregon Senator Ron Wyden, a member of the Select Committee on Intelligence, about the increase in air security and whether bin Laden is behind the recent threats to airliners.


SEN. RON WYDEN (D), OREGON: In our country, we've got something like 700 international carriers flying in. A lot of those carriers are coming from countries where it's not very hard to bribe a government official, an airline official.

And so, yes, I do think it's important to maintain strict vigilance here. I also think that we've got to have international standards with respect to aviation security. We've got too many gaps in the system. And until we have strict and enforceable international standards, I don't think we're giving the American people the measure of safety they deserve.

I do not think that we're overreacting right now. Certainly, there can be inconvenience, say, for 300 passengers. But that might prevent 3,000 from being murdered, as we saw on 9/11. I really do think, Paula, that every single one of those international gates at an American airport is like a foreign border. And so, when any of these other countries are lax in their security, that threatens our borders.


ZAHN: And we move on now. Not every political couple wants to be partners in politics, but Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, are an exception. That exclusive interview is "In Focus" tonight.

Kerry's wife is the widow of the late Senator John Heinz and the heir to the Heinz food fortune. She has a reputation for speaking her mind, not always to the advantage of her husband. For better or for worse, the Kerrys have been partners in a campaign that might be doing better.


ZAHN: So Teresa, your husband has spent the better part of 2003 on the campaign trail, and if you look at the latest CNN poll, it would show that he is getting just about half the votes that Governor Dean is. Are you frustrated by where he is placing in the majority of the polls right now?

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Can I just say -- I know you asked Teresa that, and I don't -- I'm not answering for her, but it is our view, shared, and the view of our campaign that the polls right now, particularly nationally, are meaningless.

We are competitive. We are growing. My campaign is on the move in Iowa, on the move in New Hampshire, and we're very excited about it.

ZAHN: Nevertheless, though, Teresa, it's certainly one measure of the strength of one's campaign. Are you disappointed? Or are you really, truly satisfied with where your husband is running in the polls?

TERESA HEINZ, JOHN KERRY'S WIFE: Well, I don't know -- I think the real reading out there is when I go, as I do in Iowa, and speak to groups to people who go to caucuses and are now undecided, that we get commitments at the end. Lots of commitments. And I am thankful to Iowans for that. That is a true test.

ZAHN: Senator Kerry, your wife has just described herself as shy, and yet you have described her over the years as being sassy and comfortable being opinionated. She's so comfortable talking about botox treatments, your prenuptial agreement, taking on some of your competitors in a very direct way. Has she ever been a liability to your campaign because of her candor?

KERRY: Never. She's the greatest asset in the world, and people love her. People who are meeting her all across Iowa, all across New Hampshire fall in love with her.

ZAHN: Teresa, do you ever feel like you're being muzzled, muzzled by the campaign, that you're not able to express exactly what you want to express, to be politically correct?

HEINZ: No, I have never -- no, I have never been muzzled, and if anybody who is listening has ever lived in a dictatorship, as I did, that's the one thing no one could ever do, is take my freedom of expression. You know? People in the world die for that freedom. And I rejoice in it. And that's why I campaign.

Women with opinions get called opinionated. Men with opinions get called smart or well-informed. I have opinions, and I should, because I do very important work, and if I didn't have opinions on the things I know, I would be a dimlet (ph).

ZAHN: A point well taken. Senator, let me move on to another issue now. You borrowed more than $6 million against your home in Boston to lend to your campaign.

KERRY: Sure.

ZAHN: Did you do that because not enough private donations were coming in?

KERRY: No, I did that because I chose to opt out of the federal spending, and I did it because I have confidence in my campaign, and I wanted to send a message to people that I believe in my candidacy. And it gave great confidence to people across the country, and as I said to you, my campaign is growing. I have great confidence. We're going to win the nomination.

ZAHN: Teresa, have you given any money to your husband's campaign?

HEINZ: I gave him $2,000, which is all I'm allowed to do.

ZAHN: And do you plan to...

HEINZ: I gave him my brains, and my brains and my heart, of course. You can't pay enough money for those. My service. But I cannot by law allowed to do anymore than that. ZAHN: Teresa, if it turns out that Governor Dean gets the nomination, will you embrace him as a candidate?

HEINZ: I don't know Governor Dean. And I'd have to have a big talk with him about a lot of subjects.

ZAHN: And how about you, Senator Kerry?

KERRY: I've always supported the nominee of our party, no matter who it is, but I intend to win the nomination, and we feel like this campaign is really moving now. We're growing. I think Iowa feels that, shows it. We're moving in New Hampshire. There's a lot of time left.

ZAHN: And I know...

HEINZ: I would like to meet Mrs. Dean, though. I'd like to meet Dr. Steinberg, though. I would like to meet her, because I like, you know, I like medicine, I do a lot of work in health and I'm jealous of her for doing the work she does. I am.

ZAHN: Final question for both of you. You both have talked about the delight of engaging in very important issues on the campaign trail. Teresa, what's the worst thing about this life you're leading right now?

HEINZ: The worst thing is that I'm a little too old for it, at least for the pace I'm keeping.

ZAHN: Senator Kerry, final -- final thought about the downside of campaigning?

KERRY: I do think the only downside that I find is raising the money. And it's hard, you know. We -- you just don't have the family time that you had before.

But I hate raising money. I think it's a bad part of American politics. There is too much money in American politics. It is affecting the voices of the average Americans. It's taking it away from them.

ZAHN: Well, we appreciate both of you sharing your thoughts with us.

KERRY: Thank you.

ZAHN: And your ideas.

HEINZ: Thank you.


ZAHN: And today, Kerry announced a new economic plan that would roll back tax cuts for those who earn more than $200,000 a year and for corporations that take jobs offshore. He said he would spend that money on health care and education instead. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE ROSE, FORMER MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER: Well, regardless of what the commissioner said today, I did not bet on baseball.


ZAHN: For 14 years, Pete Rose has denied time and time again that he bet on baseball games. Now, in a new memoir and in an ABC News interview, his story has changed.


CHARLES GIBSON, ABC NEWS: You have always denied publicly that you bet on baseball. Did you bet on baseball?

ROSE: Yes, I did. And that was my mistake, not coming clean a lot earlier.


ZAHN: Rose is banned from the game for life and hopes his confession will change that and help him get into the baseball's Hall of Fame.

Former baseball commissioner Fay Vincent hired the investigator who uncovered Rose's betting. And Vincent joins me now from Vero Beach, Florida.

Good of you to join us, sir. Welcome.



So, what was your reaction when you heard Pete Rose finally admitted to gambling on baseball?

Well, I guess it was a mixture of reactions.

VINCENT: Part of it was relief, because it cleans up a certain amount of debris that I'm happy has been cleaned up. And part of it was real sadness. It's a miserable episode for baseball, Paula. The whole episode has been tragic. And I think this continues a very sad episode.

ZAHN: And when you say relief, do you mean that you feel vindicated in some way, since it was your strong belief all along that he, in fact, had been gambling?


It's such a miserable episode. I mean, think about what a great player this guy was. He was really a terrific ballplayer. And the tragedy of his betting on the game, then lying about it for 14 years, is so enormous that I don't really think I can be satisfied or feel vindicated. I'm happy for Bart Giamatti and his memory. He was the commissioner who really got this going.

And he died after five months of really stress during this investigation. And I'm happy that there's a footnote now that says there's no doubt about what we did and what we proved. And the record, at least, is very clear.

ZAHN: Why do you think he finally came clean?

VINCENT: Well, I think there are two reasons.

One is money. I think he really hopes to get back into baseball to make some money managing. I think he also knows that coming clean will sell this book, though I can't imagine why. But, most importantly, I think he's coming clean now because time is running out for him to be elected to the Hall of Fame. If he's not reinstated in the next year or so, his chances of being elected by the present living members of the Hall of Fame are pretty slim.

His best chance is to be elected by the writers, but he has 20 years after he played. He played in 1986. And that time is running out. So he's a very cagey fellow. This is a very calculated move. And we'll have to see how it plays out.

ZAHN: Do you believe he belongs in the baseball Hall of Fame?

VINCENT: Well, I think he surely belongs as a player, Paula. There's no question his record and his performance as a player were Hall of Fame quality.

The question is, should someone go in the Hall of Fame who has a very flawed character and who's done something that hurt baseball very badly? And my view is that there should be a character test, as there is. He violated baseball's capital commandment, which is not to bet on baseball. Corruption is the only real threat to baseball. It's not bad commissioners or high salaries or poor attendance.

The real threat to baseball is corruption. And Pete Rose represented corruption. That means he should not be in the Hall of Fame.

ZAHN: If he is, in fact, inducted into the Hall of Fame, would you consider being there for the ceremony?

VINCENT: Well, you know, I always used to say to Bart Giamatti, never answer hypothetical questions. And that's a real hypothetical. I'd have to think about that.

You know, I would hope, Paula, that this guy would finally get the point. The point is that he ought to be seeking redemption. And you seek redemption by doing good things for baseball, by going out and proving how good you can be for the game. This is not about what's right for Pete Rose or what's fair for Pete Rose. This is about what's right for baseball. And what's right for baseball is Pete Rose to say, "I did it. And, by the way, I'm sorry." You notice when he was interviewed by Charlie Gibson, he said: My regret is that I didn't -- that I, in effect, lied about it -- not that he did the betting. He regretted that he didn't come clean earlier. Well, that's not the point. The point is, you regret that you bet on baseball and that you violated that commandment.

So, I'm very disappointed in Pete. I think, if he wants to be in the Hall of Fame, he should go out and do some things that earn that right. He should redeem himself.

ZAHN: Final question for you, Commissioner. Do you think, in the end, he will be reinstated and he will end up in the Hall of Fame? I know how much you love hypothetical questions here.

VINCENT: Well, I think he probably will.

My guess will be that baseball won't have the guts to keep him out. It's a very popular move for the commissioner to reinstate him. And I think he will play to the gallery. And so I would guess that he will be reinstated and that the writers will probably elect him to the Hall of Fame.

ZAHN: So you think there is some empathy among those writers?

VINCENT: Well, some, although most of the people I talked to today, Paula -- I get a lot of calls from writers -- they're pretty upset, the idea that this guy would lie for 14 years and stonewall and hurt baseball.

I talked to a number of prominent writers who said they will not vote for him if he comes up for election. And I think it remains to be seen. I think he's got a very tough fight to get into the Hall of Fame, even if he's reinstated.

ZAHN: Well, sir, we appreciate your candor this evening, former baseball commissioner Fay Vincent.

VINCENT: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Arkansas prepares to execute a convicted killer, a man who all agree is mentally ill. Should his life be spared?

And we'll be turning to presidential politics. And with Howard Dean well out in front, what may be a new competition, a race to finish second.

Plus, the mission to Mars. We're going to get the latest on the spectacular images just beginning to come from the Spirit lander.

Also, what's the best movie speech ever? A new survey -- the Blockbuster video chain ranks them. We'll reveal the top three tonight, starting with Marlon Brando's heartbreaking talk with Rod Steiger in "On the Waterfront."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "ON THE WATERFRONT") MARLON BRANDO, ACTOR: You don't understand. I could have had class. I could have been a contender. I could have been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what I am. Let's face it.



ZAHN: Our next story is about capital punishment.

Charles Singleton is scheduled to die in an Arkansas death chamber tomorrow. But there is a question here about this execution. And it isn't one of guilt or innocence. The question is about whether the state should execute someone who is truly insane, a paranoid schizophrenic, in fact, and only able to understand what is happening to himself when he is on medication?

Brian Cabell reports.


BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Convicted murderer Charles Singleton faces execution tomorrow, even though he seems to border on insanity.

CABELL (on camera): Have you ever heard voices in yourself?


CABELL: What kind of voices?


CABELL: What are they saying?

SINGLETON: Well, they, they, they talk about, for example, let's hold him and see when his father come. We'll have him and his father. They talk about ruling the world and finding a way to kill me.

CABELL (voice-over): Although Singleton is mentally ill -- even Arkansas officials concede that -- he does understand he's going to be executed and why. That's enough under current law to put him to death. There's one catch, though. He is rational only when on medication.

JEFF ROSENZWEIG, ATTORNEY FOR SINGLETON: When he is off his medication, he eventually loses a lot of weight, stops eating, completely loses all control of his hygiene, and essentially goes into wild gesticulations.

CABELL (on camera): What does he talk about?

ROSENZWEIG: Just whatever word salad pops into his head.

CABELL (voice-over): Twenty-four years ago, Singleton walked into a tiny grocery store, stole some petty cash, and stabbed the owner, Mary Lou York, to death. She identified him before she died. And Singleton, only 20 at the time, was convicted and sent off to death row.

But, as the years passed, his mind deteriorated. Officials at first forcibly medicated him to ease the symptoms, but now his treatment is voluntary.

(on camera): Are you paranoid schizophrenia?

SINGLETON: According to what they said, I'm just in a different reality. My reality is different, but they know the reality I'm in.

CABELL (voice-over): The victim's son, Charles York, says the insanity question is just a ploy.

CHARLES YORK, SON OF VICTIM: I don't believe it. It's just something that they use to just prolong things, to keep it in the court system.

CABELL: The prosecutor in the case, John Frank Gibson (ph) hasn't dealt with Singleton in recent years, but says he was clearly sane at the time of the crime, and if medication now keeps him sane and eligible for execution, so be it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not feel that he's being medicated in order to put him to death.

CABELL (on camera): He's being medicated to?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To keep him healthy, to control him.

CABELL (voice-over): He may not be healthy, but he is controllable now. And tomorrow, Singleton is scheduled to be executed. He says he welcomes it, because he's tired of this world.

Brian Cabell, CNN, Varner, Arkansas.


ZAHN: Some commonsense advice and medical information that may surprise you from one of the country's favorite doctors, Dean Edell. And a look ahead to the Martha Stewart case. Jury selection starts tomorrow.


ZAHN: Thomas Jefferson wrote the phrase life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as part of the Declaration of Independence, but one of America's favorite doctors, Dean Edell, has borrowed Jefferson's language, changed it a bit, and used for the title of his new book. He's here to share with us some of the insights he's gained into "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happi" -- or, actually, "Healthiness."

DR. DEAN EDELL, AUTHOR, "LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HEALTHINESS": Healthiness. ZAHN: And happiness, too, fits in there.

EDELL: Both of them very important.

ZAHN: Welcome, Doctor.

We're going to jump right in. And I'm going to choose a few of the insights you talk about in the book, starting off tonight with Botox. You write that Botox is a bioterrorism agent and a wonder drug.

EDELL: Yes, it's both.

ZAHN: Straight down the middle there.

EDELL: Yes, right. Of course, it hasn't been used...

ZAHN: First of all, do you use Botox?

EDELL: No. No, ma'am. You?

ZAHN: Have you looked at my forehead?


ZAHN: N-O, sir.

EDELL: No. OK. Yes, look at this.

Actually, what Botox can do is take away facial expression. When I give you that concerned doctor look, you see little muscles here. And people ought to be careful. People ought to be aware that beauty is skin deep and that, after plastic surgery, about nine months out, a year out, people sometimes get depressed because it didn't solve all of life's problems and it doesn't solve all of life's problems.

So I want people to be aware of that. Pure Botox, one ounce of it, could destroy the entire human race. It is a known biological agent. It's -- no one's come across a stash of it, yes. It's very expensive to produce. But this is botulism. You know, when grandma used to make canned vegetables and she did it wrong, that was the poison that paralyzes your breathing muscles, all your muscles, and you don't breathe. That's what we use.

ZAHN: All right, you got me really confused. So what are you telling me, it's better to look good than feel good and be alive?


EDELL: How about a little bit of both?

Just be aware. Just be aware. You see a lot of people walking around like this, hi, how are you, expressionless. They don't know they look like that. And some doctors are a little overzealous in the use of it.

ZAHN: All right, let's move on to sex.


ZAHN: Sex makes you live longer, look younger, and lowers your cholesterol.

EDELL: Absolutely.

ZAHN: Nothing down the middle on that one.

EDELL: No, no, no, this is a good thing. Can't keep this one under the table.

Sex, from a longevity point of view, in the research in cardiovascular risk is probably about as good as a treadmill. I don't know about you. Sex, treadmill, sex, treadmill, that's an easy choice for me.

ZAHN: You go with the treadmill, right?


ZAHN: Just kidding.

EDELL: I remember someone said once, how about sex on the treadmill? That's even better.

There have been two major studies, actually, about longevity and sex. A very famous study in England found the more orgasms a man has, the longer he lives. Difficult to do that in women. Men have a more particular kind of an end point that you can measure. There's hormone release. There are alterations in cholesterol. It is aerobic, depending upon one's particular habits.

And it's healthy behavior. That's all. This is about enjoying your life. And part of my shtick is that healthy behavior should also be enjoyable. Otherwise, you're not going to do them.

ZAHN: Yes, well, now that you're on to aerobic activity here, you also mention in your book that there is a new pill on the horizon for men that will allow for multiorgasms.

EDELL: Well, in all seriousness, I don't want to promote the inappropriate use of pharmaceutical medication.

But there is a medication normally used for Parkinson's disease called Cabergoline. And it will cause multiple orgasms in men. It's my way of saying that science is looking into this. There's a whole new wave of medications to help people. Now, whether men having multiple orgasms is a positive thing or not, I don't know. Why did nature design it the way that she did, in terms of women having this capacity, men not?

But there is a pill. And the drug company right now is saying, what do we do with this? Is this something we unleash upon the public? Is this necessary? Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Just my way of saying that science is finally -- sex is out of the closet. We're looking at it to help people, because, as a culture, we have a high sexual unhappiness rate.

That's not good for families, not good for couples. So I'm pro- sex in an appropriate manner. And medical science is looking at this.

ZAHN: Well, your medical information is interesting. But the background about your life in the book is even more interesting.

EDELL: There you go.


ZAHN: The guy lives in a bus for a number of years. You were a surgeon, got sick of that. You've had multiple lives.

EDELL: Yes, yes, I have. I didn't like really -- I didn't like medicine originally. And when radio came to me, I kind of found the thing I love the most, which is really the information and communicating the information. But sometimes, patients can get you down.

ZAHN: You've got followers all over the country. And you don't have to listen to them. They can't talk back to you.


EDELL: That's right.

ZAHN: Thanks to Dr. Dean Edell for joining us tonight.

The first successful landing on Mars in six years. We're going to see what kinds of pictures the Spirit lander has already sent back to Earth.

On to Iowa now. With two weeks to go before the first votes are cast in the presidential race, we're going to see what the Democratic race looks like at this hour.

And the duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson, joins us one day before the start of the first inquest into the death of Princess Diana.

And tomorrow, September 11, 2001, January 6, 2004, we're going to look at how America's readiness for terrorism has changed at our ports, borders, airports and more.


ZAHN: Here's some of the headlines you need to know right now at the bottom of the hour. The CIA says the latest videotape showing Osama bin Laden is likely to be authentic. The tape ran Sunday on the Al-Jazeera network. In it, bin Laden refers to the U.S. occupation of Iraq and other current events.

The latest bin Laden message comes as the U.S. remains on a high terror alert. This afternoon I talked about that with Senator Ron Wyden, a key member of the intelligence committee.


ZAHN: Do you believe Osama bin Laden is responsible for these latest threats against the U.S.?

SEN. RON WYDEN (D) OREGON: Well, clearly, the CIA thinks this tape is authentic, and my own sense is that Hussein is out of his hole, but the al Qaeda forces are still in theirs. They clearly want to reassert themselves. They have taken a pounding in Afghanistan, and I believe that they want to do is show the world and their followers that they're still strong.


ZAHN: The Mars lander called Spirit won't actually start roving for at least a week, but NASA scientists are already thrilled with its performance. They released a video today which is quite remarkable from the lander. A 3-D image, but only if you have special glasses.

Joining us now from the latest on the mission, space correspondent Miles O'Brien, who joins us from the jet propulsion lab in Pasadena, California. Good evening, Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Paula. I know you've got some of those glasses at home, so you can go and download the image and take a look at Mars in 3-D. I'm going to show you a 2-D version of it because there's no point of showing you the blue and red version. It will just make you crazy without those glasses.

As we pan around, let's take a look. This is the front of the rover moving around. Bottom part of your screen, you see those solar panels there. There's one of the antennas, the UHF antenna, and I want to call your attention to the place they're most interested in right now when they decide to move it, about a week from now.

This is a little depression. It is about 40 feet away from the rover. So about a day trip because it moves only about two inches per second. And in it, it's just -- it's like a little crater impact. And what the scientists like about that is it may have stripped away the surface. It might reveal a few secrets about what lies inside.

They have used a little bit of sense of humor in naming it. It's called Sleepy Hollow, Paula, because they haven't been getting very much sleep at all. What is kind of interesting about it is, if you look very closely at it, there are a couple of dark places there, and it is their thinking that, when this particular rover came down bouncing with air bags, it hit there twice and rolled to a stop where it is.

Now, the reason we haven't seen color pictures is they've been closely analyzing what happened as it plummeted through the Martian atmosphere to the surface. It might have hit a little harder than they hoped. All is working fine, but there is a twin rover that is due to arrive on January 24. And so they're scrubbing through this engineering data before they get to the good pictures. They want to make sure that the Opportunity rover arrives safe and sound as well in three weeks -- Paula.

ZAHN: Even without our 3-D glasses tonight, I think those pictures are absolutely amazing. By the way, Miles, how do you know that I have 3-D glasses at home?

O'BRIEN: I just had a feeling in one of your drawers you might have them.

ZAHN: He just knows how bad my housekeeping is, as he's ventured into my office before.

O'BRIEN: No comment.

ZAHN: Miles O'Brien, thank you for following the Mars mission for the U.S. Thanks for the update.

Turning to politics, things are heating up in Iowa. In two weeks, Democrats there will hold caucuses to pick convention delegates. Joining us now to dig deeper in the Democratic race in Des Moines, Iowa, our regular contributor Joe Klein from "TIME" magazine, "New Republic" editor Peter Beinart is in Washington tonight and also, our regular contributor and former Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clark from there as well. Welcome to you all.

So John, I'm going to start with you. How are things stacking up in Iowa?

JOE KLEIN, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, Paula, I think -- I did a calculation today. There are about 58 percent of all the known political reporters in the world here in Iowa right now. And I've been asking them. I've been polling them today.

I said do you have any idea what's going on? Nobody has any idea what's happening here. There's no reliable polling. It's a close race. Howard Dean is obviously a contender. Dick Gephardt is obviously a contender. John Kerry has come up. John Edwards had a very, very strong debate yesterday, and he may not be out of it. So we're just going to have to go from cold meeting to cold meeting and watch them and wait and see what happens.

ZAHN: Tory, don't the Republicans believe, though, that the nomination is basically a lock for Howard Dean at this point?

VICTORIA CLARKE, FORMER PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: You know, every day that goes by, it looks increasingly inevitable that he might be the nominee. But who knows? Yesterday's Sugar Bowl, LSU in the first half looked like a romp, and it got more interesting in the third and fourth quarter. So who knows? He looks pretty strong, but we'll see.

ZAHN: Peter, what are you hearing?

PETER BEINART, EDITOR, THE "NEW REPUBLIC": You know, it's difficult to know because, as Joe said, polling for a caucus is very unreliable. I think the problem is, however, that none of the other candidates have really been able to break out of the pack.

In a strange way, that second tier of candidates is too strong. Every time someone tries to come out of it to be the guy against Dean, you saw that in the debate yesterday, they get dragged back down.

So you had John Edwards attacking Richard Gephardt and John Kerry attacking Richard Gephardt, the one guy who could beat Howard Dean in Iowa. So I think it's going to be very tough to stop him.

ZAHN: And Joe, you were talking a little bit about some of the movement reporters perceive they're seeing now in Iowa. You had a chance to hang out with some Democratic voters there. Walk us through what their mindset is.

KLEIN: Well, you know what? There are an awful lot of undecided voters. Clearly, Howard Dean has maybe a third of the party, just as he has maybe 35, 40 percent of the party in New Hampshire. But that leaves an awful lot of other people.

And what you hear from them is that Dean seems glib and arrogant, and they're having a tough time making up their mind among Kerry, Gephardt, and Edwards, who are running the three other active campaigns here.

Joe Lieberman's not here. Wes Clark is not here. These are Iowans. They've only met these people three or four times personally by now. They want to meet them at least one more time before the election.

ZAHN: Well, you can understand that, can't you, Joe? Peter, on to you now. Former Senator Bill Bradley is expected to endorse Governor Dean tomorrow. Will that make much of a difference?

BEINART: No, I don't think so. Bradley's support was pretty much the same kind of people as Dean support, kind of upper income, socially liberal Democrats. Dean really already had those people locked up. I think the question for Dean really is going to be how does he -- does he start to begin to get more and more support amongst more blue collar, more socially conservative Democrats, and amongst African-Americans?

Those are the kind of people that candidates like him and Bradley have had trouble traditionally winning. That's where you want to see whether he can make the breakthrough.

ZAHN: Tory, we've heard a number of Republicans say the White House views Howard Dean as sort of a dream candidate. Is there a temptation to underestimate him at this stage?

CLARKE: Boy, only among some stupid people, and I don't think there are stupid people running this White House. The people I know over there are taking whoever the nominee is for the Democrats very, very seriously. It's going to be a tough, tough race no matter what, and they're taking it very seriously. The thing I find interesting about Iowa is the traditional stuff doesn't matter. It's about organization. And it's such an arcane, strange process, that caucus process. And Gephardt has some really amazing people working for him in that regard. So if anybody pulls out the upset, I think it's going to be Gephardt.

ZAHN: Let's move ahead to April, Joe, because I know how much you love projecting down the road now with no votes cast so far. Who is the Democrat left standing?

KLEIN: I think it's very hard to tell. You know, I want to go out and see Wes Clark again, next week perhaps. Back in New Hampshire. But I'll tell you, the interesting thing that's going on here is that at least two of these four candidates are not talking about foreign policy at all.

And what Peter said before is absolutely right. Howard Dean is desperate to get some working class support here, which Dick Gephardt has. And to that end, he's running a very populist campaign. Populism, the fat cats in Washington are getting all the tax breaks from George Bush. Those are the big themes out here in Iowa.

But the other thing that you really have to keep in mind about this is that about 20,000 people more than the numbers who voted in Iowa four years ago were in the stands at the dome last night in New Orleans. They had only had 61,000 people vote here last time. So you're talking about twos and threes and fours.

ZAHN: Healthy reminder there. Peter, final thought, as you move fast forwarding to April?

BEINART: I would say Dean is obviously the frontrunner. Two candidates to watch. Kerry. If Kerry beats Gephardt in Iowa, that gives a lift to his campaign. Then potentially maybe a stronger second in New Hampshire and people think he's back in the race.

The other candidate to watch, Wesley Clark. He's raised a tremendous amount of money. If he manages to come in second in New Hampshire to beat out Kerry going into the south where perhaps his military record gives him an edge. Maybe he emerges at the alternative.

ZAHN: Well, we make a promise to follow the campaign closely from here right along with Joe Klein, Peter Beinart and Victoria Clarke. Thank you all for your insights tonight.

And the jury selection process begins tomorrow on Martha Stewart's trial. We're going to look at what is ahead for her.

And comedian Al Franken is here to tell us what he has learned on his trip to entertain the troops in Iraq.

Also, we're looking at the results of a new Blockbuster Video survey of movie watchers on the best cinema speeches ever. They picked Jack Nicholson's aggressive courtroom outburst from "A Few Good Men" as No. 2. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK NICHOLSON, "A FEW GOOD MEN": You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's going to do it -- you?




MARTHA STEWART, ON TRIAL FOR ILLEGAL STOCK TRADING: Having done nothing wrong allows you to sleep.


STEWART: Allows you to continue to work. Gives you the opportunity to think about other things. But there's always the worry. I mean, a trial's coming up.


ZAHN: Well, in fact, questionnaires for potential jurors in the Martha Stewart case go out tomorrow. And Stewart, accused of obstruction of justice and securities fraud, is due in court in two weeks herself.

Here to look at the case is senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Let me wish you a happy New Year first.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: And happy New Year to you, Paula Z., it's awfully good to be here.

ZAHN: Thank you.

So, who's the ideal juror from Martha Stewart's side?

TOOBIN: This is a very tough jury selection. I think it's usually difficult because you don't have the fault lines here. You don't have a racial issue here. Gender is very complicated. Women are her best customers. Martha Stewart Living, overwhelmingly women subscribers. A lot of women detest Martha Stewart. So, you can't just say women. I think the one thing that Martha Stewart's lawyers will be looking for, liberal politically. I think that's something that will generally help her. People who are sympathetic to the underdog, which I think she is at this point.

ZAHN: Who think prosecutors are wasting their time.

TOOBIN: That this is overkill on a relatively minor case. That's the closest I can come to a good sign for a Martha Stewart jury.

ZAHN: So, the prosecution is looking for the exact opposite? TOOBIN: I think prosecutors are looking what we as prosecutors always look for in jurors, law abiding, middle class, lower middle class postal workers, Con Edison utility workers. People who play by the rules, don't want to hear a lot of complicated explanations, clear difference between right and wrong. Those are the jurors they want.

ZAHN: And don't buy her sheets.

TOOBIN: Don't buy her sheets. That's not exactly what I thought you said. OK.

ZAHN: Jeffrey, come on.

TOOBIN: I'm sorry, but yes, don't buy her sheets.

ZAHN: Let's talk about the actual jury pool and what would be perceived as a deal breaker.

TOOBIN: You mean the people who are just...

ZAHN: Who are going to be thrown out summarily.

TOOBIN: People who have strong feelings about her. That's the thing that this jury selection will be very interesting about. A lot of people -- what's interesting about this case is everybody knows Martha Stewart. Everybody has opinions about her. I think her case is not really that well-known. It's a fairly complicated, esoteric case. It's not even an insider trading case. It's lying about a stock trade. I don't think they'll have a lot of jurors who will know a lot about the facts of the case, but they'll certainly be people who have strong feelings about Martha Stewart, the person.

ZAHN: Martha Stewart expected to be in court on January 20, when prospective jurors are questioned by attorneys.

What impact will her presence have on the process?

TOOBIN: Electric. Even the few times she's been in court, I've seen her there. It's almost an O.J.-Like phenomenon. People can't stop looking at her. She is a really big celebrity. She is a very familiar person. I think it's really going to help her by in large...

ZAHN: No matter how polarized she is?

TOOBIN: I do. I think her lawyers will succeed in getting rid of anybody who really doesn't like her actively, and the people who have just sort of heard of her, they will see her. And you now celebrity by in large is good thing in America. And to be a celebrity, I think it's going to help her, the fact that she's there.

ZAHN: Yes or no, former prosecutor, would you want to prosecute this case?

TOOBIN: I think it's a very tough case.

ZAHN: Would that be a no, sir? TOOBIN: That would be a no. You pinned me down. No, I would not want to prosecute.

ZAHN: I can't believe I got him to answer that question.

TOOBIN: But no one asked me.

ZAHN: I did.

Comedian and outspoken war opponent Al Franken joins us following his trip to Iraq to cheer up the troops.

And we'll be talking live to the Duchess of York about the inquest into the death of princess Diana and more.

And we've been look the at a new survey of the all time great speeches in movies. Blockbuster Video asked fans for their favorites. Scenes from "On the Waterfront" and "A Few Good Men" got close. But it was these chilling lines from Robert Duvall in "Apocalypse Now" that came in at No. 1.


ROBERT DUVALL, ACTOR: I love the smell of napalm morning. One time we had a hell bomb for 12 hours, and when it was all over as I walked up. We didn't find one of them, not one stink (UNINTELLIGIBLE) body. The smell. You know, that gasoline smell. The whole hill. Smells like -- victory.




AL FRANKEN, COMEDIAN: The Army chow has not been that kind to me anyway. I've had five MREs, and none of them seem to have an exit strategy.


ZAHN: Go, Al. On the list of celebrity critics of President Bush, comedian Al Franken must rank near the very top. It was a real eye-opener to see that Franken recently completed a tour for the USO, entertaining U.S. troops in Iraq and some other places he probably wishes they weren't. Al Franken joins me now. Welcome.

FRANKEN: Thank you.

ZAHN: Let's tell our audience a little bit about what you had the pleasure of doing. You've lighted Hanukkah candles in one of Saddam's palaces. Is that something you thought you'd be doing someday when you were growing up?

FRANKEN: No. Oddly enough, no. No. The second night of Hanukkah, we were in Baghdad -- oh, there's a picture of it, great. Is that...

ZAHN: That's you.

FRANKEN: Yeah, I'm trying to figure out who's that with me.

ZAHN: The guy on the right.

FRANKEN: That's my brother, that's my brother -- so -- with me. And we were in one of his palaces in Baghdad. And lit the Hanukkah candles. And as kind of an f-u to him. I mean, he has in one of his palaces, he has a big -- I think it's in a palace or it might be a central command center. Has a big mural of SCUDs going and destroying Israel. So I thought this would be fun.

And we were not that far from where Saddam was. I asked to meet him, but they didn't...

ZAHN: Didn't send him over there to ask him questions?

FRANKEN: We went to Tikrit, and I asked to go to the hole, and they wouldn't let me to go to the hole either.

ZAHN: I understand you had a kind of a nice Christmas card planned for last year that you never got to enterprise (ph). Let's talk a little bit about the reaction of the troops to your visit and your reaction to them.

FRANKEN: Well, this is my fourth USO tour, and I love doing the tours. This is my first time in an active theater of battle. I was in Kosovo in '99, but it was very different.

It was very moving, to see these guys who are -- and women -- who are in harm's way. And also very moving to see -- like on the first night in -- the first show we did in Kuwait, they sang -- we sang "God Bless America" every night at the end of the show. And looking at the guys in the front row, I saw there was a black soldier with his arm linked with a white soldier, with a woman, and going back and -- and swaying back and forth, and really, this was America to me. And thinking that, you know, the military can really teach like a lot of college campuses a lot about affirmative action.

ZAHN: Can teach us all a lot of things.


ZAHN: Let me ask you this. You've been highly critical of the president, as this march to war went on. What do you say to the folks who in spite of your history of doing these USO tours, found your appearance in Iraq disingenuous in some way?

FRANKEN: I don't know anyone who has. I know that the USO invited me, and when they did, I said yes immediately. I -- to them, I -- they don't know me. I mean, I support our troops. I think that -- you know, I'm from the Vietnam generation. When I was -- I didn't serve. This is my way of serving. I tell a few jokes and leave very quickly. I was there eight days. These guys are there for nine months.

The soldiers themselves -- and there are soldiers who came up to me and said, I don't agree with anything you say politically, but I really appreciate your coming. And that, you know, then I say, well, it's my honor. And they'd say, no, it's my honor. And then I'd say, no, no, no, it's my honor. And they'd say, no, it's my honor. And it went on like that for hours, until I said, let's stop it.

ZAHN: You can see from the pictures how moved they were and how moved you were as well.

FRANKEN: Well, I was more moved -- I don't know if they were moved. They appreciated it, and they laughed. And we did a very kind of Bob Hope, very -- I brought Andy Breckman, who is a great comedy writer, who was a colleague of mine on "SNL" and did "Monk," and we wrote a very Bob Hope type variety show, and we went with -- there were country singers, Darryl Worley, who's great. And I had a fantastic time.

ZAHN: You lifted some spirits. Al Franken, thanks for sharing part of your trip with us tonight.

FRANKEN: Thanks for allowing me to.

ZAHN: Our pleasure.

Sarah Ferguson, the duchess of York, is joining us live tonight. We're going to ask her about the inquest starting this week into the death of Princess Diana.


ZAHN: Sarah Ferguson, the duchess of York, joins us tonight to tell us about her personal struggle with weight and a new survey that seems to indicate many women are scaling down their expectations and putting more emphasis on health rather than a super slim figure. That study was commissioned by Weight Watchers International, and the woman who speaks for Weight Watchers, Sarah Ferguson, duchess of York, joins us now. Always good to see you.


ZAHN: Welcome back.

Before we get to that survey and all matters related to weight, with this inquest beginning tomorrow, just your take on what it means.

FERGUSON: Well, under British law, anybody that dies abroad is -- who doesn't die from natural causes is open to an inquest, and it's the end of a beautiful chapter tomorrow. I mean, it's starting tomorrow, and that's it. And I -- I -- you know, I like to remember her as the wonderful friend she was to me. And I just think the tabloids are going to go for it and they are going to bring it all up, and they're going to make hay big time. And I just think it's so sad for the boys. I think it's so sad -- it's really basically the end of a beautiful chapter, and I just like to remember her as the lovely lady we knew her as.

ZAHN: What do you say to those people who believe that she was murdered?

FERGUSON: I have no real opinion on that. I think it's up to them to make their own opinions. In my opinion, I remember her as the lovely lady, and I'm -- she's just so special, and I think the boys are a credit to her. She was a great mother.

ZAHN: This must be a painful time for them.

FERGUSON: I think it's a very painful time for them. You know, they've been through so much. And they are such great young men. They really are. And she would be so proud. And so, you know, they can rake up anything tomorrow. They can look into everything. The papers will go mad. But at the end of the day, those boys walk with their heads held high in her memory.

ZAHN: Let's talk about you for a moment.

FERGUSON: Thank you.

ZAHN: It's been six years since you've been working on your weight in a real aggressive way. Are you happy with where you are?

FERGUSON: Paula, I've never been happier, ever, and I think it's so exciting that I can sit here and say that, you know. I think that's a huge achievement. But, you know, it's done through Weight Watchers. It really is. Because they taught me how to really make a change and understand that food was not my enemy.

ZAHN: You have written in two different books about the low self-esteem you suffered in the past. It's well-known that you never felt completely embraced by the royal family. When you look back about what triggered your overeating, how much of it had to do with how you were treated by members of the royal family?

FERGUSON: I think -- I think it was my own fault, actually, because a long, long time ago I didn't really look at Sarah. I didn't even listen to her at all. So I went along bashing into boundaries and obstacles, and I probably, you know, was the person that they all thought I was, and I believed it. And so I ate more and more and more. And I never -- and now I can sit here and talk to you about it with great honesty, and I'm proud about that. But I think I probably deserved it at the time.

ZAHN: Weight Watchers has this new survey out that we mentioned at the top of this interview that I think people are going to find interesting. At least I did. When they posed the question, would you rather be rich or thin, 30 percent said they'd rather be 30 pounds overweight with $25 million in the bank. But 43 percent said they'd rather live modestly at their dream weight. That doesn't surprise you, does it?

FERGUSON: Not at all. I mean, what I am pleased about is at last people are understanding, it's not about vanity. They want to do something for their own health. But I think it's extraordinary that women don't know what to do. They've all said we want to lose weight. We all want to do something about it. But they're not doing anything about it. They're stuck in this sort of groove of overweight and obesity. It's time now to snap out of it and get on with it and get help. And that's what I'm saying now. Enough now, no more procrastination. Lose the weight and lose it fast, otherwise, you're going to have health care on your -- big health problems on your hands.

ZAHN: So do you have the food police hovering over you on a daily basis, or are you really at a point where you're so happy with yourself that you can overindulge from time to time?


FERGUSON: Paula, I will always have the food police always near me, because I have a problem and will always have it. I'm much better. I'm much more confident. I can control it much better. But at the end of the day, it is my issue. And I'm pleased I'm able to talk about it.

ZAHN: Well, from another woman's point of view, I think you look spectacular. Great to see you. Happy new year.

FERGUSON: Thank you, Paula. And so do you.

ZAHN: Keep us healthy. Thank you.

FERGUSON: And you went skiing?

ZAHN: Yeah. I'm not supposed to tell anybody that after spending the better part of seven months on crutches last year, yes, but I did.

FERGUSON: Sorry about that.

ZAHN: Thanks for rooting me out. The duchess of York, Fergie. Thank you for spending some time with us.

We appreciate you all being with us. Tomorrow, from September 11, 2001, to January 6, 2004, we are going to look at how America's readiness for terrorism has changed. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Have a good night. Again, thanks for joining us tonight.


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