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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Nine U.S. Soldiers Killed in Iraq; How Will Immigration Changes Impact Economy?; Judge Accepts Enron Plea Bargain

Aired January 08, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: The president of Mexico says he wants more. President Vicente Fox says he wants the United States to do even more than help his citizens who live illegally in this country.
President Bush's immigration proposal may be about politics, but its impact will be about economics. Tonight, we'll report on what the proposal means for unemployed American citizens and working wages in this country.

Nine American soldiers were killed in Iraq today after a missile attack on their helicopter. Insurgent fire also hit a giant C-5 Galaxy transport plane.

And tonight, "Exporting America," or, in the case of Levi Strauss, exporting an American icon. Only the label remains in America.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, January 8. Here now, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

We will go for more. One day after President Bush announced his dramatic initiative to legalize millions of illegal aliens in this country, President Vicente Fox of Mexico demanded even more rights for his citizens who live illegally in this country.

President Fox said -- quote -- "We are going for more." An estimated seven million illegal aliens in this country are Mexican citizens. And the Mexican president says he wants an immigration treaty with the United States.

Harris Whitbeck reports from Mexico City -- Harris.

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, President Fox reacted to Bush's immigration proposal by welcoming it, but by also saying it needed some work.

Questioned this morning by reporters, Fox said the accord will permit millions of Mexicans who are over there illegally to be able to live and work within the law and with their rights being respected. He said: "It is a great step forward, but just, as this government has acted in other areas, we will go for more, go for more."

Now, just what more means is still unclear, but Fox is under pressure here to ensure that the basic human rights of Mexicans who cross into the U.S. to work be respected. Shortly after he took office three years ago, Fox said he envisioned all of North America as a borderless economic zone modeled after the European Union. And he said he would work towards laying down the foundations for that.

Now, some wonder why the Mexican president isn't focusing on creating more jobs at home, so less people would have to cross into the U.S. But many here feel immigration between Mexico and the United States will be a fact of life as long as there are jobs in the U.S. that no Americans want to take -- Lou.

DOBBS: Harris, what is the primary reason that Vicente Fox, the president of Mexico, feels that he can be this straightforward, some would even say presumptuous, in trying to dictate American policy?

WHITBECK: Well, I believe he's playing more towards domestic Mexican policy, Lou. When he took office, he said that he was going to reach an immigration accord with the U.S. His presidency has been characterized as being very independent of U.S. policy, particularly vis-a-vis Iraq. And now he seems to have to continue to play that game or sing that tune, if you will.

He's gearing up for a bilateral meeting with President Bush in Monterey, Mexico, next week. And that's the tone that he's setting for that meeting.

DOBBS: Harris, thank you very much -- Harris Whitbeck reporting from Mexico City.

The secretary of state, Colin Powell, today declined to respond directly to President Fox's statement demanding that the United States do even more for Mexicans who live illegally in this country. Secretary Powell said, President Bush, in his judgment, has put forward a good policy on illegal aliens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We need them. They're a part of our economy. We want to give them a sense of hope and belonging. We want to make it possible for them to go back to their homes and come back into the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: President Bush focused today on education and fund- raising, but a White House official said the president yesterday talked with President Fox. It is no coincidence that the immigration proposal was announced just days before President Bush meets with Mr. Fox Monday.

As we have reported here, the millions of illegal aliens in this country already are driving down wages for Americans by as much as $200 billion a year. President Bush's proposal will, without question, benefit some corporations, many employers, but it will cost workers even more.

Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a simple idea: allow foreign workers into the country to take unfilled jobs, but will it hurt American workers?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our laws should allow willing workers to enter our country and fill jobs that Americans are not filling. And I believe we can do so without jeopardizing the livelihoods of American citizens.

VILES: Some economists, though, are doubtful. They cite the simplest law of economics, supply and demand. The Bush proposal effectively increases the supply of labor.

BILL HAWKINS, U.S. BUSINESS & INDUSTRY COUNCIL: The impact is going to be to keep wages down. It's supply and demand. Increase the supply in a given demand situation and prices fall. And, in this case, prices are wages.

VILES: It is not as if we have full employment or rising wages. Nine million Americans are officially unemployed and real wages have fallen in this country over the past 30 years. And by giving employers a new option, to seek out cheaper foreign labor with the government's blessing, the proposal also appears to create a new incentive for those employers to offer wages so low that no American will take the job in the first place.

JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: You will often hear it said that we need an immigrant work force in this country because no one else will take these jobs, no one else will perform these services in the low-end sector. But, in fact, that's really not the case. What we are really saying is, no one will take these jobs, given their current quality, given the wages and the compensation that they pay.

VILES: Immigration, both legal and illegal, is already driving wages down in low-wage jobs. A UCLA study of wages earned by construction corkers, gardeners, cooks, and farm workers found that nonimmigrants in those professions suffer a wage penalty of up to $200 a month, because recent immigrants, both legal and illegal, drive down wages for everyone.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: Economically, the people most at risk here are those already working legally in this country and working in low-wage jobs. And, politically, that group has very little clout in Washington -- Lou.

DOBBS: I think we should probably just say it as it is. They have no clout in Washington.

VILES: Right.

DOBBS: The middle class, perhaps, arguably even less.

The economic impact, anyone saying that this will be positive?

VILES: It may be positive for people who are working here illegally right now. They may, if they come out of the underground economy into the light of day, get better treatment, maybe get minimum wage where they're not now, maybe even some benefits. But that's a smaller group.

The bigger group of American workers at the low end, the bottom 20 percent, they are going to suffer wage pressure across the board when employers realize that they can go to the government and say, we need some foreign workers to fill these jobs.

DOBBS: You mean U.S. citizens, native-born and legal immigrants.

VILES: Sure. Sure.

DOBBS: Pete, thank you -- Peter Viles.

Well, reaction in Congress to the president's immigration proposal has been sharply divided. In a moment, I will be talking with our Congressman Tom Tancredo of Colorado. He opposes the president's program.

But first, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas. She says the president should do even more for illegal aliens in this country. And Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee joins us tonight from Houston, Texas.

Thanks for being with us, Congresswoman.

REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D), TEXAS: Lou, thank you for having me.

DOBBS: Why, in your judgment, does the president's plan not go far enough?

JACKSON LEE: Well, first of all, let me tell you what the president's plan is not. It is not an amnesty program. It is a guest worker program. And it has nothing to do with securing our borders. The reason why I believe that we should be talking about real immigration reform is clearly what your package suggests. We have to ensure that American jobs are protected, that we don't down, if you will, the salaries of American workers, and that we eliminate discrimination across the board.

A temporary guest worker program that the president has now proposed -- and, by the way, Lou, there is no legislation. This is just a pronouncement. And I think the difficulty that the president will have is whether or not he's willing to expend political capital to get any legislation passed.

But what we have is, we have a three-year program that, at the end of that three-year program, you will again have individuals who may be lining up for deportation. Right now, we have eight million to 14 million individuals in this country. I believe we should instead use an earned access to legalization process. That means, if you are already here, working with no criminal background, you get in line for citizenship.

You have a provision in the legislation that protects American jobs. You question whether or not the trade policies of the United States have really been the culprit in America losing its jobs. And you ensure that the resources of the Homeland Security Committee and -- excuse me, the department -- are enough to be able to provide expedited processes for those who are already in line. We are six million applications behind at the Department of Homeland Security.

DOBBS: Six million applications behind. Legal immigration in this country can be an onerous process, as you point out.

But in talking about president's proposal, Congresswoman, do you believe, in point of fact, it is in the interests of the states, its citizens, and legal immigrants to give a guest worker program that leads to amnesty for those who have broken the law and crossed our borders and who live in this country now?

JACKSON LEE: Lou, I know it's difficult to can comprehend that one would in essence, as has been said by the opponents, reward people who have come to this country illegally.

Let me tell you the practicalness of where we stand today. It would be almost impossible to deport between eight million and 14 million individuals. In light of 9/11, it is far better for this country to know where every individual is in our nation and to know that these people have come for economic reasons and not to do America ill.

Yes, it is in the best interests of America at this time to have the resources of these individuals invested in America. That means their tax dollars, their Social Security dollars, as opposed to those dollars going elsewhere. And then it is important to have a massive, comprehensive immigration reform, so that we can put in place procedures to stop the crossing of individuals across the border. I think that is what we're trying to do.

DOBBS: Let's talk about that just for a moment, Congresswoman, because none of the president's proposal, in its early form, at least, suggests security at the border, either north or south.

This program, if it were to go forward as the president has proposed it, would not assure that there would not be a continuation and a repetition of the same influx of illegal aliens that has created the current situation. Would you, in point of fact, call for greater security at the border?

JACKSON LEE: Well, I think, as a member of the Homeland Security Committee, that is an interest and a desire and also actions that we have already taken.

We have increased the technology at the borders. We have increased border patrols. I have, in fact, filed legislation to increase the compensation of border patrol agents, so that we can recruit more. But, Lou, I think the important point is, the president's bill is not a border security bill. The US-VISIT program that just started is one that enhances our security by way of tracking overstays.

But what his bill is, is a temporary guest program that I don't necessarily support. And the reason is, because all you do is encourage individuals to either not go into the program or, when the three years is up, then become someone who is deportable. Let's have an earned access to legalization, get people in line, assess their criminal background, what kind of job commitment they have, the investment they have made in this country, and get them in line for citizenship.

DOBBS: What do you stay to your constituents, Congresswoman? Because, as I've articulated here myself on this program, an immigration policy, any new immigration policy must be humane, it must be rational, and it must be effective.

But we know the economic impact of having an estimated 10 million illegal aliens in this country. That is to depress wages. Harvard studies show that $190 to 200 billion a year are lost in wages to working men and women in this country as a result of illegal immigration, how do you explain to your constituents that this is just going to be fine?

JACKSON LEE: Lou, that's why I'm arguing for a comprehensive immigration reform package that addresses the ills of the 1996 legislation, has distinct and specific language about protecting American jobs, works with an improved and better trade policy that doesn't allow American jobs to be lost.

And then, of course, I think it is extremely important to use the bully pulpit to address the question of lowering America's wages just because you have a pool of workers available. You are absolutely right. We have got to address the question of protecting American work force.

Let me say this, that we have written legislation in the past that, unfortunately, has not gotten to the floor of the House that specifically had language about training, protecting American jobs. I believe we can have bipartisan support on this immigration reform if it is not a guest worker program in this instance, but an earned access to legalization with a distinct and specific responsibilities of employers not to lower wages and to protect American workers and American jobs.

I clearly think it can be done, but it has to be done by the president by using political muscle and not just an emphasis on the election year and including all of us in the process.

DOBBS: Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, we thank you very much for being with us.

JACKSON LEE: Thank you for having me. Congress Tan Tancredo from Colorado, has been one of the most vocal critics of the president's immigration proposal, who calls it -- quote -- "lousy public policy." He joins us tonight from Denver, Colorado.

Congressman, good to have you with us.

REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: Thanks, Lou. It's good to be here.

DOBBS: You heard Congresswoman Lee talk about wanting to go farther. What's your judgment?

TANCREDO: Well, of course, I couldn't disagree more with my friend and colleague Sheila Jackson Lee, because the reality of the situation is this.

There are eight, 12, sometimes people even suggest 15 million people who are here illegally. The existence of those people here right now depresses labor, regardless of what happens beyond that. It is a supply-and-demand issue. And if you have 12 million people right here who are vying for low-skill, low-wage jobs, I assure you that that, in and of itself, if you didn't do another thing, would have a very depressing effect on wage rates, and it already has.

Now, what Sheila wants to see is -- and not only doing that, but allowing those people to stay. She wants them -- quote -- "legalized." That means amnesty. But, of course, she wants to open up that process to more people to come in and take more jobs, and then says, on the other hand, but we are going to protect wages.

Well, you can't have it both ways. Either you are going to try to protect American jobs by securing your borders, allowing people to come in here only to the extent that it is absolutely necessary, or you are going to have this free-for-all, which we have been having now for three or four decades, which is a response to the demand for cheap labor. But, you know, Lou, cheap later is only cheap to the employer. It is very expensive to the taxpayers of this country. The infrastructural costs of -- quote -- "cheap labor" are enormous.

DOBBS: Congressman, you are a Republican. You should, by historical standards of the Republican Party, stand tall and large for the interests of employers and business, who desperately want this process, this proposal of the president's, to move forward. How do you square this up with your party affiliation and the other views of members of your party?

TANCREDO: Well, it's kind of interesting, isn't it, that the people that you have had on and people that we have seen interviewed on other programs, many of them Democrats, support not just the president's -- just how far he's gone, but they want to go even farther, like Sheila Jackson Lee. Those are Democrats who are saying, yes, this is a good idea; I want to go farther.

I am saying that, in reality, there is something far more important to me than my party loyalty or even my loyalty to the president. And I am loyal to both, let me tell you. I am a good Republican and my roots go back to when I was in high school in north Denver here. I was a Republican.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Congressman, we will stipulate you are a good Republican.

(LAUGHTER)

TANCREDO: OK. Well, thank you.

But I will tell you that, beyond that, I have a loyalty to the country. It is more important to me than my loyalty to the party or the president. And I will tell you that I see this as a dagger pointed at our heart. This issue

(CROSSTALK)

TANCREDO: Massive immigration is dangerous in so many ways.

DOBBS: Congressman...

TANCREDO: We don't have enough time on this program to talk about it, but I tell you, this is a dangerous, dangerous ground we are entering onto.

DOBBS: Congressman Tom Tancredo, always, thank you for being with us.

Coming up next, we will be talking about a man who talks directly in support of American business. He is none other than Tom Donohue of the U.S. Chamber of Congress. He says the president's proposal is good for business. Is it good for America? He joins us next.

And tonight, in "Exporting America," an American icon is not only exporting jobs, but its factories. Don't worry. You'll still see the label around.

And another deadly helicopter crash in Iraq has claimed nine more American lives.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My guest tonight praises President Bush for his proposal to give millions of illegal aliens in this country a legal status in which to work. U.S. Chamber of Commerce president Thomas Donohue says, if we don't, in a few years, we will be what he says will be a nation of many jobs without people.

Tom Donohue joins us tonight from our studios in Washington.

Good to have you here, Tom.

TOM DONOHUE, PRESIDENT, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: Very pleased to be with you. DOBBS: You think that this is a great plan. You think it's absolutely necessary, yet we've reported that this -- that immigration over the last few decades has lead to the point where we're losing $190 billion to $200 billion a year in wages. We have inordinate costs as a result of illegal immigration to this country. How can you support it?

DONOHUE: Well, it's very simple, if you look at the demographics of our country.

The reason we have 10.5, or whatever the number is, illegal aliens in this country, or illegal workers, is, we don't have sufficient workers to take these jobs. If you take all the unemployment in our country, which is a little less than nine million, figure half of those are structurally employed, there are not near enough to take care of the hospitals and the nursing homes, the hotels, and all of the jobs these people fill.

The worst problem is that it's going to exacerbate and get worse every week going forward. The 25-to-34-year-old wage earners will be at the lowest level possible. We are going to have a massive retirement of people in the 58 and beyond. And we have a serious, serious question over the next few years of where we are going to get our workers.

And if we don't have workers, we will send the jobs somewhere else.

DOBBS: Estimates vary, but the most recent estimate that I have seen suggests that two-thirds of illegal immigrants coming to this country don't even have a completed secondary education. They do not speak English, for the most part. How effective a work force can they be?

DONOHUE: Well, actually, 70 percent of the jobs in this country do not require extensive training. And many of the workers that have joined this country are people of high -- they are very driven to work. They want to succeed.

They are the types of people that you have sponsored and supported as a member of the board of the Horatio Alger group. They are the people that have come here with great hope and great energy. As a matter of fact, we're talking about "them." On all the shows today, we are talking about "them." Do you know who "them" are? "Them" are us, because every one of us, with a few exceptions, like chairman, Jeff Crowe, who is an American Indian, every one of us came here as an immigrant.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: No, no, no. No, wait a minute.

We came here, for the most part, us, all of us, as legal immigrants. Most of us did not come here as illegal immigrants.

DONOHUE: I grant you that. DOBBS: And I appreciate the heritage of the country as much as you do, I assure you, Tom. But the fact is, we have economic costs. There is a toll. We have more than nine million people unemployed in this country. We have the opportunity to create an immigration policy that makes sense, that is rational, that is effective, that is humane, and what we are talking about is not even enforcing security at our border.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: That's not true.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Yes, it is true, because more than 2.5 years after September 11, more than 700,000 illegal aliens cross our border every year. How can you say it's not true?

DONOHUE: I am saying it's not true because we have made major improvements at the border.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: I didn't say you hadn't made improvements.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: Excuse me. Excuse me.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Excuse me.

I said that 700,000 illegal aliens cross that border unchecked every year. What difference does it make if it's improved? It's not effective.

DONOHUE: Well, the choice, the fundamental choice here is to gather into this emotional discussion that has been going on right now and saying, let's collect up all these 10.5 million people and send them home.

DOBBS: Well, nobody on this broadcast has said that. Certainly, I have not.

DONOHUE: I didn't say it was. I said the emotional discussion that's going on.

And the issue is very fundamental, it is a demographic issue, that we are going to have massive amounts of jobs in this country now and over a short period of time without workers. John Sweeney, the head of the AFL-CIO, and I testified before the Senate the day before 9/11.

We both agree not on a lot of things. But we both agreed that this nation is going to be a nation without workers. Now, clearly, there are unemployed. And we have got to do a lot of things for those people. But the jobs we are talking about, there are not long lines of Americans ready to take them.

DOBBS: Well, is that, perhaps, because the people, the employers, the companies hiring illegal aliens, A, first of all, are quite willing to break this country's immigration laws, and, in my judgment, should be punished -- I don't know what you think. Don't you think so? You are a solid American. Wouldn't you like to see those employers punished?

DONOHUE: I believe that people -- I believe that people who intentionally break the law ought to be punished. Now, I have said that not only on this issue, but on many others.

DOBBS: Excellent. Yes, you have.

DONOHUE: The question is, you can go to Los Angeles and, for $250, you can buy a Social Security card, a driver's license and a green card. It is not as simple as it appears.

The fundamental issue that we face here and that the president has suggested a legitimate discussion on is, how are we going to meet, in an honorable, in a safe and a thoughtful way, the demands in this country for workers that demographically, we are not going to be able to meet? And I think this is a discussion that ought to be had. I think the president has taken a very thoughtful position going forward.

And I think the political result for him, at best, is going to be a wash. And I think he should be congratulated for getting you so many good things to talk about on this show in the last

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Oh, I have already congratulated the president on opening an important national dialogue.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: Now let's participate in it.

DOBBS: That's what I would like to do by asking you a couple of questions.

DONOHUE: Good. Please. Go ahead.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Tom.

Why in the world can't we, then, come to terms with business in this country raising wages to a working -- at least are a legitimate working wage and do not exploit illegal aliens and don't depress the wages to the tune of $200 billion a year for other working Americans? Why can't we confront it directly as an issue on the part of American business?

(CROSSTALK) DOBBS: You lead one of the most important business organizations in the country.

DONOHUE: Exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: And you want me to answer the question?

DOBBS: Yes, I'm ready.

DONOHUE: I believe that what we need to do is say very clearly, the law provides for a minimum wage. And no one in this country should be employed in a full-time job that is not paid a minimum wage. And anybody that is doing that is clearly breaking the law and ought to be brought to task.

And I fully support that and have done so for a long time.

DOBBS: Well, that's a great start. Now, in terms of immigration itself, what's your next step at the chamber?

DONOHUE: Well, my next step is to face the fundamental reality with the Congress and the president to say -- and the American people -- to say, we already have some number, let's say 10.5 million people working here. You are not going to send them home? You can't start a forced march across the country.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: OK, we have stipulated that.

DONOHUE: So what we need to do is, we need to register them, give them a chance to work here in a legitimate system, so we can assure they are well paid and that they are treated fairly.

And then we can assure that they are not taking jobs where existing American citizens are on line waiting for jobs, and where we can assure that we are not going to have a system that skews the wages and the benefits and the treatment of American workers. And I am absolutely for that.

I am only pressing on this number, however, and on this issue, because the demographics are so compelling. And that is, we've got to deal with this in a way that gives us the workers to keep this economy going. And I think we need to do it legally and thoughtfully. And I applaud those discussions.

DOBBS: And I applaud you for participating in one of them tonight. And we will be talking more about this, Tom, as we go forward. I am glad to see that you are not just simply cheering on the president. You are going to participate aggressively in the dialogue.

DONOHUE: Well, as you know, I don't always cheer on the president or others here. The idea is to put the facts on the table and then react to the facts, not the assertions and the emotions.

DOBBS: Absolutely. And we're going to be continuing with emotion, passion and considerable scrutiny of the facts on this issue for some time. I hope you will participate. Tom Donohue, president...

DONOHUE: I hope you will invite me back.

DOBBS: You're invited.

DONOHUE: Thank you very much.

DOBBS: Thanks a lot.

That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question, do you believe the president's immigration proposal will be a humane solution to the illegal alien problem or further depress working wages? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the show.

Thousands of you have written in to us about exporting America and the president's proposal on immigration yesterday to give, effectively, millions of illegal aliens the right to stay and work in this country.

Kenneth McSheehan of Midland, North Carolina, wrote to say: "I do not think most of the nine million out-of-work Americans would turn down any job that paid a fair wage for the work done."

Isabel Azuola-Lyman of Amherst, Massachusetts: "As an American of Hispanic descent, I am very disappointed with President Bush's immigration proposal. It amounts to rewarding criminal behavior and turning our nation into an employment center."

Susan of Bridgewater, New Hampshire, "Americans born in this country cannot find jobs because of illegals coming over the border. I have cleaned homes, would do janitor work, and have worked in the outdoors. We do not begrudge these people coming over the border a living, but the line being handed to us that they do work Americans would not do is a crock."

John Springer of Portland, Oregon, "If employers can't find workers without hiring aliens, maybe they could try raising wages, offering health benefits, paying into social security, and all the other stuff they can avoid by hiring illegals. Not only are we exporting good jobs, we're now going to import cheap labor to further lower American payrolls. It's an outrage!"

Steve Meitzler of Rochester, New York, "If President Bush is more concerned with the Hispanic vote than the plight of unemployed Americans, he should run for president of Mexico. I'm sure they would grant him guest politician status."

On Carly Fiorina's statement that there is no job that is America's God given right any more, Tom Hannah of Kingman, Arizona, "Someone should point out to her that the 9 American solders who died today had no God given responsibility to give their lives to protect Ms. Fiorina and the people of the United States."

Tony Samaniego, of San Diego, California, "It is not Fiorina's God given right to pay Chinese or Indian wages and expect to get American prices and exorbitant CEO bonuses to return for driving our standard of living into the ground."

We love hearing from you, e-mail us at loudodd@cnn.com.

Levi Strauss closed its last manufacturing plant in this country after making jeans for more than is 50 years in the United States, Levi has moved all its production overseas to suppliers and workers at a fraction of wages paid to Americans. Levi Strauss is just the beginning of American companies to export jobs to cheap foreign markets.

Casey Wian has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There may be no greater global symbol of America than a pair of Levi's, worn during the California gold rush and worn still by blue collar workers, celebrities and presidents. The original blue jean is no longer made in the USA. Work at the companies last two American plants in San Antonio got their last paycheck today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most of my life I've been there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything we have here we owe to them.

WIAN: 800 jobs lost. The plants resemble a movie western ghost town. In 1997 Levi Strauss had 37 North American factories, and 37,000 employees world wide. Now the plants and 15,000 workers are gone mostly to Chinese subcontractors.

BRUCE RAYNOR, PRES, UNITE UNION: These jobs didn't have to go, they shouldn't go economically. It's bad for our country. It's not even good for U.S. consumers, but it's American federal government policy.

WAIN: Wal-Mart is negotiating to open a new store on surplus land at this military base, coincidentally it would employ the same number of workers Levi has laid off, but at 8 bucks an hour instead of 11. Also coming to town is Toyota with 2,000 higher paying jobs.

MAYOR ED GARZA, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS: We have no specific complaints against Levi. Certainly, we are disappointed, but it would be hypocritical of me to criticize their business decision to take those jobs out of the United States when, in fact, we are bringing jobs from other countries such as the Toyota manufacturing.

WIAN: While globalization has helped San Antonio with jobs others see deeper meaning in the off shoring of Levi workers. Sociology Patricia Leavy teaches a class on the history of blue jeans.

PATRICIA LEAVY, STONEHILL COLLEGE: I do see this as an end of an era for Levi as an American icon, in so far it certainly changes their meaning when they are no longer produced within the U.S. So I would say this moment is an important historical marker.

WIAN: The company's headquarters will remain in San Francisco but it's soul has gone overseas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: A Levi Strauss company official declined to be interviewed for this story, referring us to a September press release that blames competitive pressure for sending jobs overseas. They're sales pressure as well. The company's sales dropped for 7 straight years to the lowest level since 1990 -- Lou.

DOBBS: Obviously a competitive environment for Levi's, and some management challenges they weren't able to meet, and a sad end to an American icon.

Casey Wian, thank you very much.

Coming up next, unemployed technology workers are outraged by comments by the chief executive officer of Hewlett-Packard. We'll have that story next.

And a deadly helicopter crash in Iraq claimed the lives of nine soldiers. We'll have that story and great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: "Tonight's Thought" is a statement that we reported to you last night. We found it so poignant, so important, that we thought it might be helpful to repeat it.

From a CEO who defended the exportation of jobs overseas by saying, quote, "There is though job that is America's God-given right any more," that, Carly Fiorina the chief executive officer of Hewlett- Packard. As you might expect that comment defending the exporting of America caused some considerable outrage among unemployed Americans who lost their technology jobs to lower paid workers overseas.

Bill Tucker, reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hewlett-Packard's CEO's remarks that Americans aren't guaranteed any jobs in response to criticism that companies like her's exported to many high tech jobs overseas, hit a raw nerve.

PETE BENNETT, FMR. TECH WORKER: It's an arrogance that just seems to emanate from these large companies that they can just basically abandon their local citizens, and move all their work to offshore.

TUCKER: The shot came after a month of IBM's announcement it would move 5,000 high paying computer jobs to India and China. Unemployed tech workers warn we are seeing our technology industries be decimated the way we saw manufacturing destroyed over the last decade.

JOHN BAUMAN, FMR. TECH WORKER: These companies are giving away our jobs to foreign country where every they might be with little or no care about American citizen, about the country and about our future.

TUCKER: But Fiorina and her cohorts on the Computer System's Policy Project argue that they must outsource to grow, to remain competitive. And the group's chairman, Intel's CEO Craig Barrett says the responsibility of a strong, healthy technology industry falls equally on business in Washington and he says elected leaders are falling down on the job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: Barrett notes Washington spends $40 billion a year on farm subsidies, and only $5 billion a year on basic research and the physical sciences -- Lou.

DOBBS: I think the number, actually, I would be loathe to argue with him on many things, but I think the number is actually about $20 billion, but he may be including some indirect support for that. Thank you, Bill, Bill Tucker.

Coming up next, General David "Grange on Point." Targets in the sky, American aircraft are increasingly at risk over Iraq.

What is going on and what can be done about it? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In Iraq today, nine American soldiers were killed when a Black Hawk helicopter crashed near Fallujah, west of Baghdad. A witness said the helicopter clearly marked with red crosses was hit by a surface-to-air missile.

A C-5 galaxy transport aircraft made an emergency landing at Baghdad Airport today after a suspected missile strike. The aircraft, one of the biggest in the world, was carrying 63 people, no one was injured in the accident. Also, today, the Army said one soldier was killed in last night's mortar attack on a logistics base west of Baghdad. 30 other soldiers were wounded.

In "Grange On Point" tonight. New questions about the vulnerability of U.S. aircraft and helicopters in Iraq after those apparent missile strikes. General David Grange joins us tonight. General, good to have you with us.

These strikes seem to be picking up in intensity. The attacks against U.S. forces seem to be picking up intensity. But, first, the vulnerability of U.S. aircraft in Iraq to these missiles, what can be done? GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.): CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, you know, they fly low and slow especially on takeoff and landing. And when you fly around urban areas, built-up areas, and let's say you have a five- mile approach or takeoff path from the landing area, it's hard to clear surface-to-air missiles and other type of weaponry from the area that may attack U.S. or coalition aircraft. They have to continue with unpredictable flight times and routes and counter measures in the air to negate the effect of these missiles.

DOBBS: With the increasing number of effective successful strikes against U.S. aircraft and the resultant death of Americans, what should the military be doing? Are they simply acceptable losses?

GRANGE: Well, no loss is really acceptable but we will have them as you well know. I think in this situation, there are actually -- I would think there would be more than there are right now. In fact, the record is quite good, considering the amount of flights taking place. The helicopters on the battlefield to give this three- dimensional flexibility of maneuver and support to the forces.

I'm surprised more have not been hit. So quite well, actually compared to other conflicts, Vietnam, Afghanistan, had some problems in Somalia, as you well know. So I think they are taking all the action they can.

DOBBS: General, on one other quick issue if we may, the stop loss actions by the Pentagon to hold service members in service, the Pentagon keeps saying that they don't need more men and women in Iraq. Yet, taking these actions, and others, what's going on?

GRANGE: Yes, in fact, Lou, we talked about the stop loss tied to the old IRS, in other words, an individual replacement system in one of the past shows and that was that you can't keep pulling people out individually from a combat zone, you need to move the whole unit together.

And what's happening is they have to stop some people from getting out of the military or going back to school, whatever the case may be, so they rotate together as a team. That's what we are starting to see right now.

Of course, those getting ready to get out that are held up are not too happy about it. But until the rotation of these units starts picking up a normal tempo, we will see frustration in the system.

DOBBS: Is that expected as early as this spring?

GRANGE: I believe so. In fact, it has to be this spring, and it's not only the unit rotation, but the other piece of it is, in fact, the military is short on certain high use, low density critical MOS, specialties, like engineers, military police. And that's the problem you see right now.

DOBBS: General David Grange, always appreciate it. Look forward to talking to you next week. Coming up next, tracking terrorist funding. Many in Congress say the United States is simply not getting the job done. Juan Zarate is the man in charge of that effort, ultimately. He joins us next to answer his critics on Capitol Hill. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Senate finance committee chairman, Senator Charles Grassley on this broadcast, three nights ago, accused the Treasury Department of not doing enough to stop the flow of money to Islamic terrorists.

Joining me now to respond to those charges, the man to whom the Office of Foreign Asset Control reports, Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary Juan Zarate. He joins us from Washington D.C. Good to have you with us.

JUAN ZARATE, DEPUTY ASSISTANT TREASURY SECRETARY: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: The senator is not pleased, a, by the fact that he believes the Office of Foreign Asset Control isn't getting it done and that other agencies are moving faster particularly the United Nations in one example, and, also, that the Office of Foreign Asset Control isn't responding to his committee's request for information, and for some reasoning behind the judgments that they've made and the actions that, in his judgment, again, they haven't taken.

ZARATE: Well, Senator Grassley feels passionate about these issues, as he should rightfully be concerned about. We are passionate about stopping the flow of terrorist funds through the U.S. financial system. We are passionate about ensuring the U.S. financial system is secured against financial crimes, money laundering, et cetera.

They raise some very good questions, some that are easily answered, some that are technical and we are in the process of answering those. I will tell you this, Lou, the efforts since 9/11, to track terrorist financing, to disrupt it and deter it has been unprecedented.

Any suggestion that we are falling down on the job, I think is an incorrect surmise based on the facts. Worldwide we have frozen over $136 million in assets, seized over $60 million, and we've had an unprecedented effort worldwide.

DOBBS: Is it your best understanding, your best judgment that your department and others responsible in this task have effectively shut down money to terrorists, or -- and if so, what percentage of the money that you assume is flowing have you been able to stop?

ZARATE: Lou, we, by know means, count this campaign over. The president and Secretary Snow have said quite often that this is a long-term campaign, and the issue of terrorist financing, quite honestly, Lou, is a complicated and complex one.

It's one that involves engaging our international partners to ensure that their financial systems are secure, involved in engaging the intelligence and law enforcement communities around the world as well as engaging the private sector which has been one of the untold success stories of this campaign not only U.S. banks, but other banks have stepped up to the plate to serve as the front line against abuses against the financial system.

DOBBS: Senator Grassley and other critics have been critical of OFAC, the Office of Foreign Asset Control in part because he doesn't believe they have done enough to call upon more help particularly from commercial banks in this task, how do you respond to that?

ZARATE: We are in the process of providing the senator with a written response, but I can tell you we have worked extremely closely with the financial community, in particular the banking community, to make sure that the compliance programs that are necessary to ensure that their banks aren't being used to transfer or keep tainted funds exist.

We also work very closely with all the federal regulators, like the Office of Comptroller Currency and the Federal Reserve System to make sure that they are checking to make sure those types of safeguards are in place.

And finally, as I mentioned, Lou, the private sector itself has really done an admirable job in terms of putting in place the measures we have asked them to, and they are constantly asking actually to help more. We think materially we have done a good job, and the folks at the OFAC continue to do an admirable job on all fronts.

DOBBS: Juan Zarate, Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary, thanks for being here.

ZARATE: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll, "do you believe the president's immigration proposal will be a humane solution to the illegal alien problem or further depress working wages?" Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. We'll have the results later.

Coming up next, striking a deal, a deal that could send a second Enron executive to jail, but first taking a look at the companies we confirm to be exporting jobs to cheap foreign labor markets.

These are the companies sending jobs overseas, or choosing to employing cheap foreign labor instead of American workers. Tonight's additions include: Bank One, Cummons, the world's leading diesel engine manufacturer, Unisys, an IT consulting firm, Wachovia, and Worldcom.

Please keep sending those names in, we will keep working to confirm the companies exporting America's job. And we'll be right back. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Briefly tonight, the CDC today said the deadly flu outbreak in this country is now on the decline. That news comes as federal officials report that more than 90 children, however, died of the flu this season.

A government report shows U.S. oil inventories at the lowest level since 1975. That report also suggests tight supplies in the energy sector will last at least through the winter, a barrel of crude up 36 cents today. It's now at $33.98.

And England's Queen Elizabeth II today christened the world's largest ocean liner. It's called the Queen Mary 2. It's the first Transatlantic liner to be built in more than 2 decades. It is longer than the largest U.S. aircraft carrier. The Queen Mary 2 heads for Ft. Lauderdale on Monday.

And on Wall Street another powerful rally, the Dow up 63 points, it's highest close in almost two years. The Nasdaq up 22.57, it's best close in almost two and a half years. The S&P 500 up almost six points.

Christine Romans is here now with more on the market and new developments tonight in corporate corruptions scandals.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, plea negotiations are back on for Enron's former finance chief and his wife. A Houston judge has accept Lee Fastow's guilty plea -- not necessarily some of the conditions. She had sought five months of jail time so she can care for the couple's two small children while her husband potential serves longer.

Andrew Fastow, the former CFO, said to be considering a ten-year sentence with his guilty plea, and he would cooperate in the prosecution against other Enron officials. Nothing is final there yet.

Meanwhile the New York Stock Exchange called Dick Grasso's pay unreasonable and asked the S.E.C. and New York's attorney general Eliot Spitzer to investigate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELIOT SPITZER, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: Obviously, we will look at it. Give it a very careful examination, and determine whether the NYSE's setting of the Grasso's compensation was appropriate. And if it was inappropriate or if it was excessive whether any remedies are appropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMANS: Spitzer said executives at not for profit organizations, have been forced, in the past, to give back compensation deemed to be excessive -- Lou.

DOBBS: I guess if he finds it's appropriate he ought to get his old job back.

ROMANS: I guess so. DOBBS: Well, crime may not pay, although the New York Stock Exchange chairman's job certainly paid well. Blowing the whistle on crime does pretty well, though.

ROMANS: A couple of people who blew the whistle on Tenet Healthcare, unnecessary surgeries have been awarded out of the federal settlement with Tenet Healthcare. $8.1 million these two will get for blowing the whistle on that.

DOBBS: Doing the right thing pays.

ROMANS: In this case it certainly did.

DOBBS: I love it when a market based economy works. Christine Romans, thanks.

Coming up next the return of the king to the kingdom that made him a legend. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. 6 percent of you voted saying the presidents immigration proposal will be a humane solution to the illegal alien problem, a slightly larger number, some 94 percent say it will further depress working wages in this country.

Finally tonight, a very exciting day if you happen to be a fan of the Washington Redskins, the Washington Redskins welcome back their head coach, Joe Gibbs, after an absence of 11 years. The so-called turnaround king also named team president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE GIBBS, COACH WASHINGTON REDSKINS: It's not 1 person. It's not a -- certainly, I'm a small part of it. It's all of us together, every single person that was the Redskins.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Gibbs returns to what was a disappointing Redskins team. Hoping now to recapture some past glory, Gibbs won Super Bowl titles in '82, '87 and '91. He had a lot of help from some great football players. I hope, personally, he brings back my favorite running back of all time, John Riggins. He'll do them some good.

Gibbs, of course, spent the last decade running what has been a very successful NASCAR team.

That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Tomorrow on "Exporting America," a report on how the Washington State is shipping American jobs overseas. And commerce secretary, Donald Rumsfeld joins us -- excuse me, Donald Evans joins us, commerce secretary.

From all of us here, good night from New York.

END

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Changes Impact Economy?; Judge Accepts Enron Plea Bargain>


Aired January 8, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: The president of Mexico says he wants more. President Vicente Fox says he wants the United States to do even more than help his citizens who live illegally in this country.
President Bush's immigration proposal may be about politics, but its impact will be about economics. Tonight, we'll report on what the proposal means for unemployed American citizens and working wages in this country.

Nine American soldiers were killed in Iraq today after a missile attack on their helicopter. Insurgent fire also hit a giant C-5 Galaxy transport plane.

And tonight, "Exporting America," or, in the case of Levi Strauss, exporting an American icon. Only the label remains in America.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, January 8. Here now, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

We will go for more. One day after President Bush announced his dramatic initiative to legalize millions of illegal aliens in this country, President Vicente Fox of Mexico demanded even more rights for his citizens who live illegally in this country.

President Fox said -- quote -- "We are going for more." An estimated seven million illegal aliens in this country are Mexican citizens. And the Mexican president says he wants an immigration treaty with the United States.

Harris Whitbeck reports from Mexico City -- Harris.

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, President Fox reacted to Bush's immigration proposal by welcoming it, but by also saying it needed some work.

Questioned this morning by reporters, Fox said the accord will permit millions of Mexicans who are over there illegally to be able to live and work within the law and with their rights being respected. He said: "It is a great step forward, but just, as this government has acted in other areas, we will go for more, go for more."

Now, just what more means is still unclear, but Fox is under pressure here to ensure that the basic human rights of Mexicans who cross into the U.S. to work be respected. Shortly after he took office three years ago, Fox said he envisioned all of North America as a borderless economic zone modeled after the European Union. And he said he would work towards laying down the foundations for that.

Now, some wonder why the Mexican president isn't focusing on creating more jobs at home, so less people would have to cross into the U.S. But many here feel immigration between Mexico and the United States will be a fact of life as long as there are jobs in the U.S. that no Americans want to take -- Lou.

DOBBS: Harris, what is the primary reason that Vicente Fox, the president of Mexico, feels that he can be this straightforward, some would even say presumptuous, in trying to dictate American policy?

WHITBECK: Well, I believe he's playing more towards domestic Mexican policy, Lou. When he took office, he said that he was going to reach an immigration accord with the U.S. His presidency has been characterized as being very independent of U.S. policy, particularly vis-a-vis Iraq. And now he seems to have to continue to play that game or sing that tune, if you will.

He's gearing up for a bilateral meeting with President Bush in Monterey, Mexico, next week. And that's the tone that he's setting for that meeting.

DOBBS: Harris, thank you very much -- Harris Whitbeck reporting from Mexico City.

The secretary of state, Colin Powell, today declined to respond directly to President Fox's statement demanding that the United States do even more for Mexicans who live illegally in this country. Secretary Powell said, President Bush, in his judgment, has put forward a good policy on illegal aliens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We need them. They're a part of our economy. We want to give them a sense of hope and belonging. We want to make it possible for them to go back to their homes and come back into the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: President Bush focused today on education and fund- raising, but a White House official said the president yesterday talked with President Fox. It is no coincidence that the immigration proposal was announced just days before President Bush meets with Mr. Fox Monday.

As we have reported here, the millions of illegal aliens in this country already are driving down wages for Americans by as much as $200 billion a year. President Bush's proposal will, without question, benefit some corporations, many employers, but it will cost workers even more.

Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a simple idea: allow foreign workers into the country to take unfilled jobs, but will it hurt American workers?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our laws should allow willing workers to enter our country and fill jobs that Americans are not filling. And I believe we can do so without jeopardizing the livelihoods of American citizens.

VILES: Some economists, though, are doubtful. They cite the simplest law of economics, supply and demand. The Bush proposal effectively increases the supply of labor.

BILL HAWKINS, U.S. BUSINESS & INDUSTRY COUNCIL: The impact is going to be to keep wages down. It's supply and demand. Increase the supply in a given demand situation and prices fall. And, in this case, prices are wages.

VILES: It is not as if we have full employment or rising wages. Nine million Americans are officially unemployed and real wages have fallen in this country over the past 30 years. And by giving employers a new option, to seek out cheaper foreign labor with the government's blessing, the proposal also appears to create a new incentive for those employers to offer wages so low that no American will take the job in the first place.

JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: You will often hear it said that we need an immigrant work force in this country because no one else will take these jobs, no one else will perform these services in the low-end sector. But, in fact, that's really not the case. What we are really saying is, no one will take these jobs, given their current quality, given the wages and the compensation that they pay.

VILES: Immigration, both legal and illegal, is already driving wages down in low-wage jobs. A UCLA study of wages earned by construction corkers, gardeners, cooks, and farm workers found that nonimmigrants in those professions suffer a wage penalty of up to $200 a month, because recent immigrants, both legal and illegal, drive down wages for everyone.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: Economically, the people most at risk here are those already working legally in this country and working in low-wage jobs. And, politically, that group has very little clout in Washington -- Lou.

DOBBS: I think we should probably just say it as it is. They have no clout in Washington.

VILES: Right.

DOBBS: The middle class, perhaps, arguably even less.

The economic impact, anyone saying that this will be positive?

VILES: It may be positive for people who are working here illegally right now. They may, if they come out of the underground economy into the light of day, get better treatment, maybe get minimum wage where they're not now, maybe even some benefits. But that's a smaller group.

The bigger group of American workers at the low end, the bottom 20 percent, they are going to suffer wage pressure across the board when employers realize that they can go to the government and say, we need some foreign workers to fill these jobs.

DOBBS: You mean U.S. citizens, native-born and legal immigrants.

VILES: Sure. Sure.

DOBBS: Pete, thank you -- Peter Viles.

Well, reaction in Congress to the president's immigration proposal has been sharply divided. In a moment, I will be talking with our Congressman Tom Tancredo of Colorado. He opposes the president's program.

But first, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas. She says the president should do even more for illegal aliens in this country. And Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee joins us tonight from Houston, Texas.

Thanks for being with us, Congresswoman.

REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D), TEXAS: Lou, thank you for having me.

DOBBS: Why, in your judgment, does the president's plan not go far enough?

JACKSON LEE: Well, first of all, let me tell you what the president's plan is not. It is not an amnesty program. It is a guest worker program. And it has nothing to do with securing our borders. The reason why I believe that we should be talking about real immigration reform is clearly what your package suggests. We have to ensure that American jobs are protected, that we don't down, if you will, the salaries of American workers, and that we eliminate discrimination across the board.

A temporary guest worker program that the president has now proposed -- and, by the way, Lou, there is no legislation. This is just a pronouncement. And I think the difficulty that the president will have is whether or not he's willing to expend political capital to get any legislation passed.

But what we have is, we have a three-year program that, at the end of that three-year program, you will again have individuals who may be lining up for deportation. Right now, we have eight million to 14 million individuals in this country. I believe we should instead use an earned access to legalization process. That means, if you are already here, working with no criminal background, you get in line for citizenship.

You have a provision in the legislation that protects American jobs. You question whether or not the trade policies of the United States have really been the culprit in America losing its jobs. And you ensure that the resources of the Homeland Security Committee and -- excuse me, the department -- are enough to be able to provide expedited processes for those who are already in line. We are six million applications behind at the Department of Homeland Security.

DOBBS: Six million applications behind. Legal immigration in this country can be an onerous process, as you point out.

But in talking about president's proposal, Congresswoman, do you believe, in point of fact, it is in the interests of the states, its citizens, and legal immigrants to give a guest worker program that leads to amnesty for those who have broken the law and crossed our borders and who live in this country now?

JACKSON LEE: Lou, I know it's difficult to can comprehend that one would in essence, as has been said by the opponents, reward people who have come to this country illegally.

Let me tell you the practicalness of where we stand today. It would be almost impossible to deport between eight million and 14 million individuals. In light of 9/11, it is far better for this country to know where every individual is in our nation and to know that these people have come for economic reasons and not to do America ill.

Yes, it is in the best interests of America at this time to have the resources of these individuals invested in America. That means their tax dollars, their Social Security dollars, as opposed to those dollars going elsewhere. And then it is important to have a massive, comprehensive immigration reform, so that we can put in place procedures to stop the crossing of individuals across the border. I think that is what we're trying to do.

DOBBS: Let's talk about that just for a moment, Congresswoman, because none of the president's proposal, in its early form, at least, suggests security at the border, either north or south.

This program, if it were to go forward as the president has proposed it, would not assure that there would not be a continuation and a repetition of the same influx of illegal aliens that has created the current situation. Would you, in point of fact, call for greater security at the border?

JACKSON LEE: Well, I think, as a member of the Homeland Security Committee, that is an interest and a desire and also actions that we have already taken.

We have increased the technology at the borders. We have increased border patrols. I have, in fact, filed legislation to increase the compensation of border patrol agents, so that we can recruit more. But, Lou, I think the important point is, the president's bill is not a border security bill. The US-VISIT program that just started is one that enhances our security by way of tracking overstays.

But what his bill is, is a temporary guest program that I don't necessarily support. And the reason is, because all you do is encourage individuals to either not go into the program or, when the three years is up, then become someone who is deportable. Let's have an earned access to legalization, get people in line, assess their criminal background, what kind of job commitment they have, the investment they have made in this country, and get them in line for citizenship.

DOBBS: What do you stay to your constituents, Congresswoman? Because, as I've articulated here myself on this program, an immigration policy, any new immigration policy must be humane, it must be rational, and it must be effective.

But we know the economic impact of having an estimated 10 million illegal aliens in this country. That is to depress wages. Harvard studies show that $190 to 200 billion a year are lost in wages to working men and women in this country as a result of illegal immigration, how do you explain to your constituents that this is just going to be fine?

JACKSON LEE: Lou, that's why I'm arguing for a comprehensive immigration reform package that addresses the ills of the 1996 legislation, has distinct and specific language about protecting American jobs, works with an improved and better trade policy that doesn't allow American jobs to be lost.

And then, of course, I think it is extremely important to use the bully pulpit to address the question of lowering America's wages just because you have a pool of workers available. You are absolutely right. We have got to address the question of protecting American work force.

Let me say this, that we have written legislation in the past that, unfortunately, has not gotten to the floor of the House that specifically had language about training, protecting American jobs. I believe we can have bipartisan support on this immigration reform if it is not a guest worker program in this instance, but an earned access to legalization with a distinct and specific responsibilities of employers not to lower wages and to protect American workers and American jobs.

I clearly think it can be done, but it has to be done by the president by using political muscle and not just an emphasis on the election year and including all of us in the process.

DOBBS: Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, we thank you very much for being with us.

JACKSON LEE: Thank you for having me. Congress Tan Tancredo from Colorado, has been one of the most vocal critics of the president's immigration proposal, who calls it -- quote -- "lousy public policy." He joins us tonight from Denver, Colorado.

Congressman, good to have you with us.

REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: Thanks, Lou. It's good to be here.

DOBBS: You heard Congresswoman Lee talk about wanting to go farther. What's your judgment?

TANCREDO: Well, of course, I couldn't disagree more with my friend and colleague Sheila Jackson Lee, because the reality of the situation is this.

There are eight, 12, sometimes people even suggest 15 million people who are here illegally. The existence of those people here right now depresses labor, regardless of what happens beyond that. It is a supply-and-demand issue. And if you have 12 million people right here who are vying for low-skill, low-wage jobs, I assure you that that, in and of itself, if you didn't do another thing, would have a very depressing effect on wage rates, and it already has.

Now, what Sheila wants to see is -- and not only doing that, but allowing those people to stay. She wants them -- quote -- "legalized." That means amnesty. But, of course, she wants to open up that process to more people to come in and take more jobs, and then says, on the other hand, but we are going to protect wages.

Well, you can't have it both ways. Either you are going to try to protect American jobs by securing your borders, allowing people to come in here only to the extent that it is absolutely necessary, or you are going to have this free-for-all, which we have been having now for three or four decades, which is a response to the demand for cheap labor. But, you know, Lou, cheap later is only cheap to the employer. It is very expensive to the taxpayers of this country. The infrastructural costs of -- quote -- "cheap labor" are enormous.

DOBBS: Congressman, you are a Republican. You should, by historical standards of the Republican Party, stand tall and large for the interests of employers and business, who desperately want this process, this proposal of the president's, to move forward. How do you square this up with your party affiliation and the other views of members of your party?

TANCREDO: Well, it's kind of interesting, isn't it, that the people that you have had on and people that we have seen interviewed on other programs, many of them Democrats, support not just the president's -- just how far he's gone, but they want to go even farther, like Sheila Jackson Lee. Those are Democrats who are saying, yes, this is a good idea; I want to go farther.

I am saying that, in reality, there is something far more important to me than my party loyalty or even my loyalty to the president. And I am loyal to both, let me tell you. I am a good Republican and my roots go back to when I was in high school in north Denver here. I was a Republican.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Congressman, we will stipulate you are a good Republican.

(LAUGHTER)

TANCREDO: OK. Well, thank you.

But I will tell you that, beyond that, I have a loyalty to the country. It is more important to me than my loyalty to the party or the president. And I will tell you that I see this as a dagger pointed at our heart. This issue

(CROSSTALK)

TANCREDO: Massive immigration is dangerous in so many ways.

DOBBS: Congressman...

TANCREDO: We don't have enough time on this program to talk about it, but I tell you, this is a dangerous, dangerous ground we are entering onto.

DOBBS: Congressman Tom Tancredo, always, thank you for being with us.

Coming up next, we will be talking about a man who talks directly in support of American business. He is none other than Tom Donohue of the U.S. Chamber of Congress. He says the president's proposal is good for business. Is it good for America? He joins us next.

And tonight, in "Exporting America," an American icon is not only exporting jobs, but its factories. Don't worry. You'll still see the label around.

And another deadly helicopter crash in Iraq has claimed nine more American lives.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My guest tonight praises President Bush for his proposal to give millions of illegal aliens in this country a legal status in which to work. U.S. Chamber of Commerce president Thomas Donohue says, if we don't, in a few years, we will be what he says will be a nation of many jobs without people.

Tom Donohue joins us tonight from our studios in Washington.

Good to have you here, Tom.

TOM DONOHUE, PRESIDENT, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: Very pleased to be with you. DOBBS: You think that this is a great plan. You think it's absolutely necessary, yet we've reported that this -- that immigration over the last few decades has lead to the point where we're losing $190 billion to $200 billion a year in wages. We have inordinate costs as a result of illegal immigration to this country. How can you support it?

DONOHUE: Well, it's very simple, if you look at the demographics of our country.

The reason we have 10.5, or whatever the number is, illegal aliens in this country, or illegal workers, is, we don't have sufficient workers to take these jobs. If you take all the unemployment in our country, which is a little less than nine million, figure half of those are structurally employed, there are not near enough to take care of the hospitals and the nursing homes, the hotels, and all of the jobs these people fill.

The worst problem is that it's going to exacerbate and get worse every week going forward. The 25-to-34-year-old wage earners will be at the lowest level possible. We are going to have a massive retirement of people in the 58 and beyond. And we have a serious, serious question over the next few years of where we are going to get our workers.

And if we don't have workers, we will send the jobs somewhere else.

DOBBS: Estimates vary, but the most recent estimate that I have seen suggests that two-thirds of illegal immigrants coming to this country don't even have a completed secondary education. They do not speak English, for the most part. How effective a work force can they be?

DONOHUE: Well, actually, 70 percent of the jobs in this country do not require extensive training. And many of the workers that have joined this country are people of high -- they are very driven to work. They want to succeed.

They are the types of people that you have sponsored and supported as a member of the board of the Horatio Alger group. They are the people that have come here with great hope and great energy. As a matter of fact, we're talking about "them." On all the shows today, we are talking about "them." Do you know who "them" are? "Them" are us, because every one of us, with a few exceptions, like chairman, Jeff Crowe, who is an American Indian, every one of us came here as an immigrant.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: No, no, no. No, wait a minute.

We came here, for the most part, us, all of us, as legal immigrants. Most of us did not come here as illegal immigrants.

DONOHUE: I grant you that. DOBBS: And I appreciate the heritage of the country as much as you do, I assure you, Tom. But the fact is, we have economic costs. There is a toll. We have more than nine million people unemployed in this country. We have the opportunity to create an immigration policy that makes sense, that is rational, that is effective, that is humane, and what we are talking about is not even enforcing security at our border.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: That's not true.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Yes, it is true, because more than 2.5 years after September 11, more than 700,000 illegal aliens cross our border every year. How can you say it's not true?

DONOHUE: I am saying it's not true because we have made major improvements at the border.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: I didn't say you hadn't made improvements.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: Excuse me. Excuse me.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Excuse me.

I said that 700,000 illegal aliens cross that border unchecked every year. What difference does it make if it's improved? It's not effective.

DONOHUE: Well, the choice, the fundamental choice here is to gather into this emotional discussion that has been going on right now and saying, let's collect up all these 10.5 million people and send them home.

DOBBS: Well, nobody on this broadcast has said that. Certainly, I have not.

DONOHUE: I didn't say it was. I said the emotional discussion that's going on.

And the issue is very fundamental, it is a demographic issue, that we are going to have massive amounts of jobs in this country now and over a short period of time without workers. John Sweeney, the head of the AFL-CIO, and I testified before the Senate the day before 9/11.

We both agree not on a lot of things. But we both agreed that this nation is going to be a nation without workers. Now, clearly, there are unemployed. And we have got to do a lot of things for those people. But the jobs we are talking about, there are not long lines of Americans ready to take them.

DOBBS: Well, is that, perhaps, because the people, the employers, the companies hiring illegal aliens, A, first of all, are quite willing to break this country's immigration laws, and, in my judgment, should be punished -- I don't know what you think. Don't you think so? You are a solid American. Wouldn't you like to see those employers punished?

DONOHUE: I believe that people -- I believe that people who intentionally break the law ought to be punished. Now, I have said that not only on this issue, but on many others.

DOBBS: Excellent. Yes, you have.

DONOHUE: The question is, you can go to Los Angeles and, for $250, you can buy a Social Security card, a driver's license and a green card. It is not as simple as it appears.

The fundamental issue that we face here and that the president has suggested a legitimate discussion on is, how are we going to meet, in an honorable, in a safe and a thoughtful way, the demands in this country for workers that demographically, we are not going to be able to meet? And I think this is a discussion that ought to be had. I think the president has taken a very thoughtful position going forward.

And I think the political result for him, at best, is going to be a wash. And I think he should be congratulated for getting you so many good things to talk about on this show in the last

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Oh, I have already congratulated the president on opening an important national dialogue.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: Now let's participate in it.

DOBBS: That's what I would like to do by asking you a couple of questions.

DONOHUE: Good. Please. Go ahead.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Tom.

Why in the world can't we, then, come to terms with business in this country raising wages to a working -- at least are a legitimate working wage and do not exploit illegal aliens and don't depress the wages to the tune of $200 billion a year for other working Americans? Why can't we confront it directly as an issue on the part of American business?

(CROSSTALK) DOBBS: You lead one of the most important business organizations in the country.

DONOHUE: Exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: And you want me to answer the question?

DOBBS: Yes, I'm ready.

DONOHUE: I believe that what we need to do is say very clearly, the law provides for a minimum wage. And no one in this country should be employed in a full-time job that is not paid a minimum wage. And anybody that is doing that is clearly breaking the law and ought to be brought to task.

And I fully support that and have done so for a long time.

DOBBS: Well, that's a great start. Now, in terms of immigration itself, what's your next step at the chamber?

DONOHUE: Well, my next step is to face the fundamental reality with the Congress and the president to say -- and the American people -- to say, we already have some number, let's say 10.5 million people working here. You are not going to send them home? You can't start a forced march across the country.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: OK, we have stipulated that.

DONOHUE: So what we need to do is, we need to register them, give them a chance to work here in a legitimate system, so we can assure they are well paid and that they are treated fairly.

And then we can assure that they are not taking jobs where existing American citizens are on line waiting for jobs, and where we can assure that we are not going to have a system that skews the wages and the benefits and the treatment of American workers. And I am absolutely for that.

I am only pressing on this number, however, and on this issue, because the demographics are so compelling. And that is, we've got to deal with this in a way that gives us the workers to keep this economy going. And I think we need to do it legally and thoughtfully. And I applaud those discussions.

DOBBS: And I applaud you for participating in one of them tonight. And we will be talking more about this, Tom, as we go forward. I am glad to see that you are not just simply cheering on the president. You are going to participate aggressively in the dialogue.

DONOHUE: Well, as you know, I don't always cheer on the president or others here. The idea is to put the facts on the table and then react to the facts, not the assertions and the emotions.

DOBBS: Absolutely. And we're going to be continuing with emotion, passion and considerable scrutiny of the facts on this issue for some time. I hope you will participate. Tom Donohue, president...

DONOHUE: I hope you will invite me back.

DOBBS: You're invited.

DONOHUE: Thank you very much.

DOBBS: Thanks a lot.

That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question, do you believe the president's immigration proposal will be a humane solution to the illegal alien problem or further depress working wages? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the show.

Thousands of you have written in to us about exporting America and the president's proposal on immigration yesterday to give, effectively, millions of illegal aliens the right to stay and work in this country.

Kenneth McSheehan of Midland, North Carolina, wrote to say: "I do not think most of the nine million out-of-work Americans would turn down any job that paid a fair wage for the work done."

Isabel Azuola-Lyman of Amherst, Massachusetts: "As an American of Hispanic descent, I am very disappointed with President Bush's immigration proposal. It amounts to rewarding criminal behavior and turning our nation into an employment center."

Susan of Bridgewater, New Hampshire, "Americans born in this country cannot find jobs because of illegals coming over the border. I have cleaned homes, would do janitor work, and have worked in the outdoors. We do not begrudge these people coming over the border a living, but the line being handed to us that they do work Americans would not do is a crock."

John Springer of Portland, Oregon, "If employers can't find workers without hiring aliens, maybe they could try raising wages, offering health benefits, paying into social security, and all the other stuff they can avoid by hiring illegals. Not only are we exporting good jobs, we're now going to import cheap labor to further lower American payrolls. It's an outrage!"

Steve Meitzler of Rochester, New York, "If President Bush is more concerned with the Hispanic vote than the plight of unemployed Americans, he should run for president of Mexico. I'm sure they would grant him guest politician status."

On Carly Fiorina's statement that there is no job that is America's God given right any more, Tom Hannah of Kingman, Arizona, "Someone should point out to her that the 9 American solders who died today had no God given responsibility to give their lives to protect Ms. Fiorina and the people of the United States."

Tony Samaniego, of San Diego, California, "It is not Fiorina's God given right to pay Chinese or Indian wages and expect to get American prices and exorbitant CEO bonuses to return for driving our standard of living into the ground."

We love hearing from you, e-mail us at loudodd@cnn.com.

Levi Strauss closed its last manufacturing plant in this country after making jeans for more than is 50 years in the United States, Levi has moved all its production overseas to suppliers and workers at a fraction of wages paid to Americans. Levi Strauss is just the beginning of American companies to export jobs to cheap foreign markets.

Casey Wian has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There may be no greater global symbol of America than a pair of Levi's, worn during the California gold rush and worn still by blue collar workers, celebrities and presidents. The original blue jean is no longer made in the USA. Work at the companies last two American plants in San Antonio got their last paycheck today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most of my life I've been there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything we have here we owe to them.

WIAN: 800 jobs lost. The plants resemble a movie western ghost town. In 1997 Levi Strauss had 37 North American factories, and 37,000 employees world wide. Now the plants and 15,000 workers are gone mostly to Chinese subcontractors.

BRUCE RAYNOR, PRES, UNITE UNION: These jobs didn't have to go, they shouldn't go economically. It's bad for our country. It's not even good for U.S. consumers, but it's American federal government policy.

WAIN: Wal-Mart is negotiating to open a new store on surplus land at this military base, coincidentally it would employ the same number of workers Levi has laid off, but at 8 bucks an hour instead of 11. Also coming to town is Toyota with 2,000 higher paying jobs.

MAYOR ED GARZA, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS: We have no specific complaints against Levi. Certainly, we are disappointed, but it would be hypocritical of me to criticize their business decision to take those jobs out of the United States when, in fact, we are bringing jobs from other countries such as the Toyota manufacturing.

WIAN: While globalization has helped San Antonio with jobs others see deeper meaning in the off shoring of Levi workers. Sociology Patricia Leavy teaches a class on the history of blue jeans.

PATRICIA LEAVY, STONEHILL COLLEGE: I do see this as an end of an era for Levi as an American icon, in so far it certainly changes their meaning when they are no longer produced within the U.S. So I would say this moment is an important historical marker.

WIAN: The company's headquarters will remain in San Francisco but it's soul has gone overseas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: A Levi Strauss company official declined to be interviewed for this story, referring us to a September press release that blames competitive pressure for sending jobs overseas. They're sales pressure as well. The company's sales dropped for 7 straight years to the lowest level since 1990 -- Lou.

DOBBS: Obviously a competitive environment for Levi's, and some management challenges they weren't able to meet, and a sad end to an American icon.

Casey Wian, thank you very much.

Coming up next, unemployed technology workers are outraged by comments by the chief executive officer of Hewlett-Packard. We'll have that story next.

And a deadly helicopter crash in Iraq claimed the lives of nine soldiers. We'll have that story and great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: "Tonight's Thought" is a statement that we reported to you last night. We found it so poignant, so important, that we thought it might be helpful to repeat it.

From a CEO who defended the exportation of jobs overseas by saying, quote, "There is though job that is America's God-given right any more," that, Carly Fiorina the chief executive officer of Hewlett- Packard. As you might expect that comment defending the exporting of America caused some considerable outrage among unemployed Americans who lost their technology jobs to lower paid workers overseas.

Bill Tucker, reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hewlett-Packard's CEO's remarks that Americans aren't guaranteed any jobs in response to criticism that companies like her's exported to many high tech jobs overseas, hit a raw nerve.

PETE BENNETT, FMR. TECH WORKER: It's an arrogance that just seems to emanate from these large companies that they can just basically abandon their local citizens, and move all their work to offshore.

TUCKER: The shot came after a month of IBM's announcement it would move 5,000 high paying computer jobs to India and China. Unemployed tech workers warn we are seeing our technology industries be decimated the way we saw manufacturing destroyed over the last decade.

JOHN BAUMAN, FMR. TECH WORKER: These companies are giving away our jobs to foreign country where every they might be with little or no care about American citizen, about the country and about our future.

TUCKER: But Fiorina and her cohorts on the Computer System's Policy Project argue that they must outsource to grow, to remain competitive. And the group's chairman, Intel's CEO Craig Barrett says the responsibility of a strong, healthy technology industry falls equally on business in Washington and he says elected leaders are falling down on the job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: Barrett notes Washington spends $40 billion a year on farm subsidies, and only $5 billion a year on basic research and the physical sciences -- Lou.

DOBBS: I think the number, actually, I would be loathe to argue with him on many things, but I think the number is actually about $20 billion, but he may be including some indirect support for that. Thank you, Bill, Bill Tucker.

Coming up next, General David "Grange on Point." Targets in the sky, American aircraft are increasingly at risk over Iraq.

What is going on and what can be done about it? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In Iraq today, nine American soldiers were killed when a Black Hawk helicopter crashed near Fallujah, west of Baghdad. A witness said the helicopter clearly marked with red crosses was hit by a surface-to-air missile.

A C-5 galaxy transport aircraft made an emergency landing at Baghdad Airport today after a suspected missile strike. The aircraft, one of the biggest in the world, was carrying 63 people, no one was injured in the accident. Also, today, the Army said one soldier was killed in last night's mortar attack on a logistics base west of Baghdad. 30 other soldiers were wounded.

In "Grange On Point" tonight. New questions about the vulnerability of U.S. aircraft and helicopters in Iraq after those apparent missile strikes. General David Grange joins us tonight. General, good to have you with us.

These strikes seem to be picking up in intensity. The attacks against U.S. forces seem to be picking up intensity. But, first, the vulnerability of U.S. aircraft in Iraq to these missiles, what can be done? GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.): CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, you know, they fly low and slow especially on takeoff and landing. And when you fly around urban areas, built-up areas, and let's say you have a five- mile approach or takeoff path from the landing area, it's hard to clear surface-to-air missiles and other type of weaponry from the area that may attack U.S. or coalition aircraft. They have to continue with unpredictable flight times and routes and counter measures in the air to negate the effect of these missiles.

DOBBS: With the increasing number of effective successful strikes against U.S. aircraft and the resultant death of Americans, what should the military be doing? Are they simply acceptable losses?

GRANGE: Well, no loss is really acceptable but we will have them as you well know. I think in this situation, there are actually -- I would think there would be more than there are right now. In fact, the record is quite good, considering the amount of flights taking place. The helicopters on the battlefield to give this three- dimensional flexibility of maneuver and support to the forces.

I'm surprised more have not been hit. So quite well, actually compared to other conflicts, Vietnam, Afghanistan, had some problems in Somalia, as you well know. So I think they are taking all the action they can.

DOBBS: General, on one other quick issue if we may, the stop loss actions by the Pentagon to hold service members in service, the Pentagon keeps saying that they don't need more men and women in Iraq. Yet, taking these actions, and others, what's going on?

GRANGE: Yes, in fact, Lou, we talked about the stop loss tied to the old IRS, in other words, an individual replacement system in one of the past shows and that was that you can't keep pulling people out individually from a combat zone, you need to move the whole unit together.

And what's happening is they have to stop some people from getting out of the military or going back to school, whatever the case may be, so they rotate together as a team. That's what we are starting to see right now.

Of course, those getting ready to get out that are held up are not too happy about it. But until the rotation of these units starts picking up a normal tempo, we will see frustration in the system.

DOBBS: Is that expected as early as this spring?

GRANGE: I believe so. In fact, it has to be this spring, and it's not only the unit rotation, but the other piece of it is, in fact, the military is short on certain high use, low density critical MOS, specialties, like engineers, military police. And that's the problem you see right now.

DOBBS: General David Grange, always appreciate it. Look forward to talking to you next week. Coming up next, tracking terrorist funding. Many in Congress say the United States is simply not getting the job done. Juan Zarate is the man in charge of that effort, ultimately. He joins us next to answer his critics on Capitol Hill. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Senate finance committee chairman, Senator Charles Grassley on this broadcast, three nights ago, accused the Treasury Department of not doing enough to stop the flow of money to Islamic terrorists.

Joining me now to respond to those charges, the man to whom the Office of Foreign Asset Control reports, Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary Juan Zarate. He joins us from Washington D.C. Good to have you with us.

JUAN ZARATE, DEPUTY ASSISTANT TREASURY SECRETARY: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: The senator is not pleased, a, by the fact that he believes the Office of Foreign Asset Control isn't getting it done and that other agencies are moving faster particularly the United Nations in one example, and, also, that the Office of Foreign Asset Control isn't responding to his committee's request for information, and for some reasoning behind the judgments that they've made and the actions that, in his judgment, again, they haven't taken.

ZARATE: Well, Senator Grassley feels passionate about these issues, as he should rightfully be concerned about. We are passionate about stopping the flow of terrorist funds through the U.S. financial system. We are passionate about ensuring the U.S. financial system is secured against financial crimes, money laundering, et cetera.

They raise some very good questions, some that are easily answered, some that are technical and we are in the process of answering those. I will tell you this, Lou, the efforts since 9/11, to track terrorist financing, to disrupt it and deter it has been unprecedented.

Any suggestion that we are falling down on the job, I think is an incorrect surmise based on the facts. Worldwide we have frozen over $136 million in assets, seized over $60 million, and we've had an unprecedented effort worldwide.

DOBBS: Is it your best understanding, your best judgment that your department and others responsible in this task have effectively shut down money to terrorists, or -- and if so, what percentage of the money that you assume is flowing have you been able to stop?

ZARATE: Lou, we, by know means, count this campaign over. The president and Secretary Snow have said quite often that this is a long-term campaign, and the issue of terrorist financing, quite honestly, Lou, is a complicated and complex one.

It's one that involves engaging our international partners to ensure that their financial systems are secure, involved in engaging the intelligence and law enforcement communities around the world as well as engaging the private sector which has been one of the untold success stories of this campaign not only U.S. banks, but other banks have stepped up to the plate to serve as the front line against abuses against the financial system.

DOBBS: Senator Grassley and other critics have been critical of OFAC, the Office of Foreign Asset Control in part because he doesn't believe they have done enough to call upon more help particularly from commercial banks in this task, how do you respond to that?

ZARATE: We are in the process of providing the senator with a written response, but I can tell you we have worked extremely closely with the financial community, in particular the banking community, to make sure that the compliance programs that are necessary to ensure that their banks aren't being used to transfer or keep tainted funds exist.

We also work very closely with all the federal regulators, like the Office of Comptroller Currency and the Federal Reserve System to make sure that they are checking to make sure those types of safeguards are in place.

And finally, as I mentioned, Lou, the private sector itself has really done an admirable job in terms of putting in place the measures we have asked them to, and they are constantly asking actually to help more. We think materially we have done a good job, and the folks at the OFAC continue to do an admirable job on all fronts.

DOBBS: Juan Zarate, Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary, thanks for being here.

ZARATE: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll, "do you believe the president's immigration proposal will be a humane solution to the illegal alien problem or further depress working wages?" Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. We'll have the results later.

Coming up next, striking a deal, a deal that could send a second Enron executive to jail, but first taking a look at the companies we confirm to be exporting jobs to cheap foreign labor markets.

These are the companies sending jobs overseas, or choosing to employing cheap foreign labor instead of American workers. Tonight's additions include: Bank One, Cummons, the world's leading diesel engine manufacturer, Unisys, an IT consulting firm, Wachovia, and Worldcom.

Please keep sending those names in, we will keep working to confirm the companies exporting America's job. And we'll be right back. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Briefly tonight, the CDC today said the deadly flu outbreak in this country is now on the decline. That news comes as federal officials report that more than 90 children, however, died of the flu this season.

A government report shows U.S. oil inventories at the lowest level since 1975. That report also suggests tight supplies in the energy sector will last at least through the winter, a barrel of crude up 36 cents today. It's now at $33.98.

And England's Queen Elizabeth II today christened the world's largest ocean liner. It's called the Queen Mary 2. It's the first Transatlantic liner to be built in more than 2 decades. It is longer than the largest U.S. aircraft carrier. The Queen Mary 2 heads for Ft. Lauderdale on Monday.

And on Wall Street another powerful rally, the Dow up 63 points, it's highest close in almost two years. The Nasdaq up 22.57, it's best close in almost two and a half years. The S&P 500 up almost six points.

Christine Romans is here now with more on the market and new developments tonight in corporate corruptions scandals.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, plea negotiations are back on for Enron's former finance chief and his wife. A Houston judge has accept Lee Fastow's guilty plea -- not necessarily some of the conditions. She had sought five months of jail time so she can care for the couple's two small children while her husband potential serves longer.

Andrew Fastow, the former CFO, said to be considering a ten-year sentence with his guilty plea, and he would cooperate in the prosecution against other Enron officials. Nothing is final there yet.

Meanwhile the New York Stock Exchange called Dick Grasso's pay unreasonable and asked the S.E.C. and New York's attorney general Eliot Spitzer to investigate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELIOT SPITZER, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: Obviously, we will look at it. Give it a very careful examination, and determine whether the NYSE's setting of the Grasso's compensation was appropriate. And if it was inappropriate or if it was excessive whether any remedies are appropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMANS: Spitzer said executives at not for profit organizations, have been forced, in the past, to give back compensation deemed to be excessive -- Lou.

DOBBS: I guess if he finds it's appropriate he ought to get his old job back.

ROMANS: I guess so. DOBBS: Well, crime may not pay, although the New York Stock Exchange chairman's job certainly paid well. Blowing the whistle on crime does pretty well, though.

ROMANS: A couple of people who blew the whistle on Tenet Healthcare, unnecessary surgeries have been awarded out of the federal settlement with Tenet Healthcare. $8.1 million these two will get for blowing the whistle on that.

DOBBS: Doing the right thing pays.

ROMANS: In this case it certainly did.

DOBBS: I love it when a market based economy works. Christine Romans, thanks.

Coming up next the return of the king to the kingdom that made him a legend. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. 6 percent of you voted saying the presidents immigration proposal will be a humane solution to the illegal alien problem, a slightly larger number, some 94 percent say it will further depress working wages in this country.

Finally tonight, a very exciting day if you happen to be a fan of the Washington Redskins, the Washington Redskins welcome back their head coach, Joe Gibbs, after an absence of 11 years. The so-called turnaround king also named team president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE GIBBS, COACH WASHINGTON REDSKINS: It's not 1 person. It's not a -- certainly, I'm a small part of it. It's all of us together, every single person that was the Redskins.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Gibbs returns to what was a disappointing Redskins team. Hoping now to recapture some past glory, Gibbs won Super Bowl titles in '82, '87 and '91. He had a lot of help from some great football players. I hope, personally, he brings back my favorite running back of all time, John Riggins. He'll do them some good.

Gibbs, of course, spent the last decade running what has been a very successful NASCAR team.

That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Tomorrow on "Exporting America," a report on how the Washington State is shipping American jobs overseas. And commerce secretary, Donald Rumsfeld joins us -- excuse me, Donald Evans joins us, commerce secretary.

From all of us here, good night from New York.

END

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Changes Impact Economy?; Judge Accepts Enron Plea Bargain>