The Web    CNN.com      Powered by
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
SERVICES
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
SEARCH
Web CNN.com
powered by Yahoo!
TRANSCRIPTS


 

Return to Transcripts main page

ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

Fallout: O'Neill Versus President Bush; War on Terrorism Criticism

Aired January 13, 2004 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST (voice-over): Is former Treasury Secretary O'Neill retracting his attack on the president?

Why is the Army War College publishing a scathing report, calling the war in Iraq unnecessary?

Dean's lead shrinks, as the Iowa hustle heats up.

Conquering depression. Tonight, why some antidepressants may not work as well as you think.

Whatever happened in the pizza delivery bomb investigation? Have police solved the mystery?

Bethany Hamilton back in the water and competing again. Meet the teen surfer attacked by a shark.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.

COOPER: Good evening. Thanks for joining us on 360. A lot going on right now.

It happened just a short time ago. An appeals court ordered Rush Limbaugh's medical records head under seal, at least for now. The conservative talk show host also gets a new liberal ally in his court case. We're going to have more on that in a moment.

But first, our top story tonight. New twists in the controversy over Paul O'Neill's blistering attack on President Bush. The ex- insider now says he wishes he could take back some of his comments. And he does not believe he gave away government secrets.

CNN senior White House correspondent, John King, has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former Treasury secretary, Paul O'Neill, says he never meant to suggest President Bush was in a rush to war from day one. PAUL O'NEILL, FMR. TREASURY SECRETARY: Well, actually, there was a continuation of work that had been going on in the Clinton administration, with the notion that there needed to be regime change in Iraq.

KING: On NBC's "Today," O'Neill again insisted he never saw firm evidence that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. But he said there was intelligence suggesting such weapons.

O'NEILL: And it's why we have a president. We elected George Bush and he decided it was good enough.

KING: And on perhaps the most quoted line in the price of loyalty, calling the president leading a cabinet meeting like a blind man in a room full of death people.

O'NEILL: But if I could take it back, I'd take that back.

KING: O'Neill's softer tone came as others in those early national security meetings took issue with suggestions Mr. Bush was predisposed to war. Retired Army General Hugh Shelton (ph), the military's top officer at the time, tells CNN he "saw nothing in the first six months of the Bush administration that would lead me to believe we were any closer to attacking Iraq than we had been in the previous administration."

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld echoed Shelton's (ph) view about Iraq and disputed O'Neill's characterization of a detached president.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: What I've been reading about the book is so different from my experience in this administration, it is just dramatic. It is night and day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: And John King joins us now from the White House. Those comments from Don Rumsfeld, that was from today. Do we know if Rumsfeld has actually talked to O'Neill about the book?

KING: He said he talked to him twice, Anderson. They're friends, going back more than 30 years. Secretary Rumsfeld said he called Paul O'Neill first when he heard the book project was under way, and that Paul O'Neill assured him that it was a policy book. Then Don Rumsfeld said he called him again when he heard -- he would use the term -- but a kiss and tell insider account, and he said that Paul O'Neill did acknowledge that some people are not going to be happy.

COOPER: All right. John King at the White House. Thanks, John.

Now to Iraq. An attack that could have been worse. Today, a U.S. Apache helicopter came under fire, crashed. U.S. military officials say it appears insurgents were behind the attack. The crew survived. The attack happened in a town about 40 miles west of Baghdad. Is the U.S. invasion of Iraq an unnecessary diversion from the U.S. war on terror? A scathing report from the U.S. Army War College, a Pentagon think tank, makes that argument. But does that mean the Army actually agrees?

More from CNN senior correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The U.S. invasion of Iraq was an unnecessary preventive war of choice that was not integral to the war on terrorism, but rather a detour from it. That's the conclusion of Jeffrey Record, a visiting professor at the Army War College, and a former aide to Democratic senators Sam Nunn and Lloyd Bentsen.

JEFFREY RECORD, PROFESSOR, ARMY WAR COLLEGE: I think the invasion of Iraq was a diversion from the more narrower focus on defeating al Qaeda.

MCINTYRE: Record argues in a paper published last month, "The global war on terrorism is strategically unfocused, promises more than it can deliver, and threatens to dissipate scarce U.S. military means over too many ends." A disclaimer makes clear that's not the official position of the Army, something Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld underscored as he dismissed the criticism.

RUMSFELD: The person wrote an article, like an op-ed piece. And it's out there. And everyone is free to say whatever they think.

That is the position of some people in the United States and in the world, what he repeated. And that's fine. It obviously is inaccurate.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The professor also echoed the sentiments of many critics in Congress and elsewhere who say the U.S. military is too small. But Rumsfeld repeated his defense, that the current strain on the force is a temporary spike and that increasing the number of troops in the U.S. military would be the slowest and most expensive solution to the problem -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Thanks.

Under fire tonight, the National Park Service for security lapses two years after the September 11 attacks. A tough report just obtained by CNN describes what is it calls "persistent and severe deficiencies" and security around national monuments.

CNN's Kathleen Koch has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They were days Interior Department investigators expected tight security at the Washington Monument, the day before and the actual anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. But instead, there was so little security that investigators on 9/11 took a black plastic bag to the rear of the monument and set it at the base.

According to their report, the bag full of trash that just as easily could have been explosives sat there for 20 minute. Investigators then carried it to the front and put it next to the security kiosk where visitors enter. Again, it sat unnoticed for about 15 minutes.

Where were U.S. park police charged with guarding the monument? The day before, investigators found some sitting inside but never leaving the monument. On 9/11, while park rangers were present, the only officer was asleep in an unmarked patrol car.

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, D.C. CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATE: Don't make this a cop problem. This is the failure of the National Park Service top to bottom to train all of its personnel for the new 9/11 era in which we live.

KOCH: The inspection came on the heels of a scathing August report critical of park security nationwide. A September report concluded the National Park Service and U.S. Park Police, "have such complacency that it causes us to question their value and purpose." But park police insist security has been improved.

SGT. SCOTT FEAR, SPOKESMAN, NATIONAL PARK POLICE: We devised a new plan, and we implemented it as soon as we could. So changes were made.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH: Now, this comes as U.S. Park Police is about to lose its police chief, Teresa Chambers (ph). She was charged this fall with insubordination for talking with the media about budget and security issues. Ironically, though, Anderson, it is said to be she who has led the department in making some of the security improvements that investigators asked for. She could be fired as soon as this week.

COOPER: Kathleen Koch in Washington. Thanks, Kathleen.

The latest polls show Howard Dean and Richard Gephardt battling it out for first place in next Monday's Iowa caucuses. It is a difficult dance that has pundits pondering who's going to come in third.

CNN senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley, shows us the latest steps in the Iowa hustle.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Something is happening here.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I need you, every one of you. I don't mean as a group. If I could reach out in those chairs and grab you, I would.

CROWLEY: What it is ain't exactly clear.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm here to ask Iowa veterans to join in the veteran's brigade that is crisscrossing this state, to go to the caucuses next Monday.

CROWLEY: There is closeness in the polls, urgency in the calendar, uncertainty in the voters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we're looking for undecided voters or people who want to hear to what Senator Kerry has to say to come on out.

CROWLEY: In a state where Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt are expected to take the gold or silver in one order or another, the race for the bronze looms large. It puts John Kerry, a veteran of Washington, in the battlefield.

KERRY: Measure any of the others, and their records with respect to national security, fighting for peace, fighting with respect to the choices of weapons and arms control and all of those things that matter in terms of security in the country, and I believe the difference is enormous.

CROWLEY: And John Edwards, a fresh face with a sharp brain and southern blood.

EDWARDS: This is the guy who can beat George Bush everywhere in America. In the North, in the West, in the Midwest, and talking like this in the South.

CROWLEY: Both are playing to bigger crowds. Both say they have momentum. Both are up in the polls. Only one can take third.

Candy Crowley, CNN, Des Moines.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: That is true, only one can take third.

Late today, some tantalizing news out of the Howard Dean campaign. Dean's campaign manager says the Democratic front-runner will travel to Plains, Georgia on Sunday, where he will go to church with former president, Jimmy Carter. Dean's aides say he has been seeking advice from Mr. Carter since the beginning of his campaign.

The former president has said he will not express any preference for a candidate for the Democratic nomination. The word is that President Carter may have some kind words to say about Dean, but will not make any endorsement. The former president and former Georgia governor says he sees a little of himself in the former Vermont governor.

We shall see.

We're following a number of developing stories right now "Cross Country." Let's take a look.

Baltimore, Maryland: deadly crash. State police say at least two people were killed when a tractor-trailer plunged off an interstate overpass on to two vehicles. At least two more victims may be trapped in the fiery debris. They don't know at this point. The crash closed I-95 in both directions and set a neighboring field ablaze.

Miami, Florida: Limbaugh's medical records. We mentioned it earlier. A state appeals court orders prosecutors to turn over Rush Limbaugh's medical records while it decides whether they have the right to see the documents. Prosecutors want access to the sealed records as they investigate whether the radio talk show host tried to get prescription painkillers from multiple doctors. Limbaugh admits his addiction to drugs.

Travis Air Force Base, California: translator trial. The court martial has begun for an Air Force Arabic translator working at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp. Senior Airman Ahman al-Alabi (ph) faces espionage and other charges. The Air Force alleges he tried to send more than 180 messages from Gitmo detainees to Syria.

Dutchtown, Louisiana: Columbine copycats? Could it be? Two high school students under arrest for allegedly plotting to repeat the bloody Columbine high school massacre on its fifth anniversary. That's in April. Officials say the teens insist it was just a joke.

New York: actor vanishes. Police say this man, Spalding Gray, has been missing since Saturday night. Gray wrote and starred in the movie "Swimming to Cambodia." His film credits include "The Killing Fields" and "Kate and Leopold." We're going to have more on this story later on.

That is a look at stories "Cross Country" tonight.

Wal-Mart labor concerns. Did the retail giant engage in unfair labor practices, or did an internal audit get it wrong? We'll get the latest on that.

Plus, "Conquering Depression," part two of our week-long series. Tonight, can happiness be found in a bottle? We'll take a closer look at the effectiveness of antidepressants.

And you're going to meet the amazing Bethany Hamilton. She lost her arm in a shark attack. But she is back in the water competing again. Find out how this teen-surfing phenom did in her first tournament.

First, let's take a look "Inside the Box" at the top stories on tonight's network newscasts.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, the retail giant, Wal-Mart, has taken more flack for its labor practices. A scathing internal audit, now public, reveals thousands of apparent labor violations. Wal-Mart says the audit is simply being misinterpreted. Fred Katayama has details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRED KATAYAMA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Wal-Mart keeps prices low for its customers. But that could be coming at a high cost for its workers. Employees of the world's largest retailer skipping lunch breaks without pay, minors soldiering on into the wee hours of the night. With such alleged situations, some tens of thousands could violate labor laws in some states.

They appeared in an in-house audit CNN obtained from a former Wal-Mart employee who is now critical of the company. The 3-year-old audit covers a two-week period at 128 stores nationwide. It found nearly 1,400 instances of minors working outside parameters set by state regulations. Roughly 16,000 cases of workers skipping meals, and more than 60,000 instances of not taking breaks.

This former manager says under-staffing is the culprit.

STAN FORTUNE, FMR. WAL-MART EMPLOYEE: The workload that's given to them is so great. The amount of pressure on them to finish the jobs that they're assigned is so great that some of them just feel like they have to give up their lunches or they have to work after they've clocked out.

KATAYAMA: In a statement, Wal-Mart said, "The audit misinterpreted an exception report that is generated to help managers identify instances of breaks and lunch periods. In some cases, associates modified their schedules to meet a personal need to leave early that day. Employment and work schedules of minors at Wal-Mart are in strict compliance with the law."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KATAYAMA: The U.S. Labor department says it is unaware of the internal audit obtained by CNN. But in an unrelated matter, it says that it, too, is looking into alleged child labor violations at Wal- Mart stores. But a Labor spokesperson would not elaborate -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Fred, thanks very much for that tonight.

This isn't the first time Wal-Mart's had labor issues. Here's a quick flashback for you. Last June 4, a lawsuit filed on behalf of Wal-Mart workers alleged the company misled its workers with language in its employee handbook, stating that they would be excluded from benefits if they became union represented. Nearly 700,000 Wal-Mart workers nationwide are forced to get health insurance coverage from the government or through spouse's plans.

And last October, federal agents raided 60 Wal-Mart stores across 21 states. They arrested more than 250 illegal immigrants who worked as janitors for outside contractors used by Wal-Mart.

Now a look at stories making headlines around the world in tonight's "UpLink."

Tehran, Iran: showdown. President Mohammed Khatami is threatening to dissolve his government. That is all in response to the Iranian Guardian Council's decision to ban reformist candidates in the upcoming national elections. The council, which is made up of hard-line religious conservatives, has already backed down over some of the potential candidates.

Monterrey, Mexico: vote in Haiti. Maybe. Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide said in Mexico today that he'll call legislative elections sometime over the next six months. He's attending the Summit of the Americas.

Aristide didn't give an exact date when Haiti would hold the vote, though. He explained that by saying he wanted to consult with members of the opposition, the private sector and his government first. There have been a lot of demonstrations in Port-Au-Prince, as you can see.

London: Doctor Death dead. Dr. Harold Shipman, convicted of killing at least 215 of his patients over several decades, well, he died today. Shipman hanged himself with bed sheets in his London's prison cell. The doctor's victims were his elderly patients. Investigators said he may have killed as many as 260 people in all.

And Santiago, Chile: kiss and tell. Almost 9,000 men and women gathered there to try to set a world record for most people making out at the same time. Who knew. I didn't know they had such a record.

That's a look at tonight's "UpLink."

Coming up, "Conquering Depression." Tonight, part two of our week-long series. We'll look at antidepressants. They're an $18 billion industry, but how effective are they really?

Also tonight, what happened in the mansion of Jason Williams? The former basketball star goes on trial for shooting a chauffeur in his bedroom. Was it all really an accident?

And how quickly we forget what's happened in the investigation of the pizza deliveryman with a bomb strapped around his neck. Are police any closer to solving the mystery?

Find out ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, tonight we continue our series, "Conquering Depression," with a look at antidepressants. It's a multi-billion- dollar industry that some say is turning the country into a nation of pill-poppers. But there's research that questions whether the drugs are really all that effective and how effective they are.

CNN medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, has looked into it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The $17 billion industry was built on people like Hunt Brown.

HUNT BROWN, TREATED FOR DEPRESSION: I had a law practice that was collapsing. I had a non-profit organization which I ran, which wasn't getting funded. I had a wife who was leaving me.

And then there was that little stock market thing that happened a while back, where I bet against (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and lost a lot of money. I was waking up 3:00 in the morning in a complete panic.

GUPTA: His doctor prescribed Paxil, an antidepressant.

BROWN: I walked outside one morning and the birds were singing and the sky was blue. And I thought, yes, I remember this.

GUPTA: The medication is fast for the typical patient. As little as a week to feel effects. Plus, it costs half as much as talk therapy.

(on camera): But it may be too good to be true. In fact, if you look at over half the drug companies' studies done through the '90s on all antidepressants, it shows that these drugs really work no better than sugar pills. Sort of striking. But before we jump to any conclusions, it may not be that the drugs don't work but rather the studies weren't strong enough to show their effectiveness.

(voice-over): Representatives of the drug industry we spoke with acknowledge effect varies from person to person, but say the medicine does help millions of people. Still, antidepressants can have side effects. Molly Canfield has tried them all. Her sex life on Prozac?

MOLLY CANFIELD, TREATED FOR DEPRESSION: I felt kind of like I was a nun. I could care less about it.

GUPTA: Affects her?

CANFIELD: Maybe like I had too many pots of coffee.

GUPTA: But if you think she's sworn off medication...

CANFIELD: It is like a diabetic who needs insulin. You wouldn't ask them to go without their insulin. People who need antidepressants and can benefit from them, it plugs in that part of you that's not there.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, the pros and cons of antidepressants. We want to talk more about this popular treatment option with Dr. Alexander Glassman. He's a professor of psychiatry at Columbia University, and chief of clinical psychopharmacology at New York State Psychiatric Institute. Dr. Glassman, thanks for being with us. You heard one person talking about some of the side effects of some of these. Clearly, though, for some, medication is the lesser of two evils. How do you determine who should go and try antidepressants?

DR. ALEXANDER GLASSMAN, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Well, the biggest single factor is how long the depression lasts. It's a problem with depression because it is a normal mood that human beings have and it's an illness too, in the same word. The difference is blurred where do you draw a line. But depression as a normal mood can go on for hours or days, but not weeks or months.

COOPER: There's a difference between the normal depression and a depression which is more clinical...

(CROSSTALK)

GLASSMAN: It's an illness that lasts, that persists.

COOPER: Is there a way that people could be using these drugs in a more effective way?

GLASSMAN: Well, I'm not sure what you mean by that in the sense that you should use it in the usual way, if you take the usual drugs in the usual dose. But if that doesn't work, there are a number of things you can do. You could change drugs, you could increase the dose.

COOPER: Because, I mean, not all antidepressants are created equal. One drug, Prozac, for instance, may work for a person, but it might not work for that person's neighbor. But there are other options.

GLASSMAN: That's absolutely true.

COOPER: And is it as simple as trial and error?

GLASSMAN: It's mostly trial and error.

COOPER: And that can take weeks. Because, I mean, if it takes a week or two for Prozac, say, to have an impact, I mean, you are talking about a process that may be just a trial and error process that takes quite some time.

GLASSMAN: Well, that's true. And how long you allow it to go on depends how depressed the person is.

COOPER: There is a new study published this month in the "Archives of General Psychiatry," which I don't often read, but I heard about this. It found that 80 percent of patients who stopped taking antidepressants relapsed within a year, while those undergoing cognitive behavior therapy only relapsed at a rate of 25 percent after a year.

What happens when people stop taking these medications? GLASSMAN: Well, it depends how often they've had depression in the past. If you've never been depressed before, you get depressed and you get better and take the pill for six months, the chances you will relapse are probably less than 50 percent. But in people who have had multiple episodes, if you've had two or three episodes in the past, your chances of relapsing if you stop medication are really very high.

COOPER: And the majority of people get these medications actually from their primary care physician, not from a psychiatrist. Is that the right way to do it?

GLASSMAN: Well, you know, in an average depression, a usual depression, taking the usual drug at a usual dose, 60 percent of the people will get better. Forty percent won't, but 60 percent will. And those people don't need to see a specialist. It's only the ones that don't get better or get better and relapse, or those that have had prior episodes that really need to see a specialist.

COOPER: Well, there's certainly a lot of treatment options out there. Dr. Alexander Glassman, appreciate you joining us.

GLASSMAN: Thank you.

COOPER: Thank you.

Well, whether you decide to take antidepressants or not, keep in mind, without treatment, depression can severely affect your health. Here's a fast fact for you. The National Institute of Mental Health says people with depression are four times as likely to develop a heart attack than those without a history of the illness.

Of course, we want to hear from you and what you think. Today's "Buzz" question is this: Do you think doctors over-prescribe antidepressants? You can vote now, cnn.com/360. We'll have the results at the end of the program.

And our series, "Conquering Depression," continues tomorrow night with a look at the therapy cure. It's the old-age method of the analyst's couch. The best treatment option for you?

Thursday, the young and hopeless. Teenage depression. We'll meet a rock band that's reaching out to those in need through its music.

And Friday, we wrap up the series with silent sufferers, some call them, men and depression.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): Did Dean peak too soon?

Whatever happened in the pizza delivery bomb investigation? Have police solved the mystery?

And she lost an arm to a shark, but you can't keep this teen surfing phenom out of the water. You'll meet her when 360 continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: In the next half-hour on 360, Democrats battle it out for the first win of the election season, but is anyone winning with the voters? The latest twists and turns on the campaign trail.

Plus, Michael Jackson, search warrants and affidavits. The defense gets its hands on some new evidence.

And teenage shark survivor. She's hit the waves again at a surfing competition. The inspirational Bethany Hamilton joins us live.

First, let's check our top stories in "The Reset."

Monterrey, Mexico. The U.S. makes concessions on free trade at the 34-nation Summit of the Americas, backing off today on a set 2005 deadline for a free trade area. Also, President Bush told Canada it could compete for a second round of U.S.-financed contracts for Iraqi reconstruction.

Washington. A senior administration official says President Bush wants to hike NASA's budget by $1 billion over five years. The money would help pay for his plan to put a base on the moon and send human beings to Mars.

Also in Washington, demonstrators crawled up the outside steps of the Supreme Court today as the high court heard a lawyer for two paraplegics argue that disabled Americans deserve the right of access to government buildings. The justices must decide whether to exempt state governments from the federal Americans With Disabilities Act.

And still in Washington, these cute little critters aren't welcome in the U.S. anymore. The government has banned the import of civet cats and products made from them, because they are suspected of passing the SARS virus onto humans.

And Los Angeles. As if Lakers star Kobe Bryant doesn't have trouble enough, he is sidelined from the court. Bryant, who is defending himself on a sexual assault charge, sprained his surgically repaired right shoulder last night in a victory over the Cleveland Cavaliers.

And that is a look at tonight's "Reset."

With Iowa caucuses just six days away, the races are getting close. A new Zogby poll for the Iowa caucuses shows Howard Dean with 28 percent of the vote. Dick Gephardt at 23 percent. Throw in a 4.5 margin of error and it's just about too close to call. The battle for third place seems to be heating up as well, with John Kerry at 17 percent, John Edwards at 14 percent.

Joining us now from Washington are Democratic strategist Julian Epstein and from Mountain View, California, political analyst Carlos Watson. Appreciate both of you joining us. Carlos, let's start off with you. Gephardt or Dean? Who do you think is going to take it in Iowa?

CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It's really close. Right now, if you had to call it, you'd say Dean. You'd say that for a couple of reasons. One, Dean not only has a five-point lead in the polls that you talked about, but two, he's got 3,500 organizers on the ground. Some say more than 4,000. And in this really intensive process -- again, you don't just go and cast a vote for 15 minutes, but caucus goers have to spend two hours. That kind of person power is really important.

Gephardt does have a lot of union support and a lot of the union folks are there, but right now Dean seems to have a little more momentum, even after taking some of this buck shot, as he called it.

COOPER: Julian, the battle for third, also a key battle going on there. Who do you see?

JULIAN EPSTEIN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, John Edwards clearly has the momentum going on right now, particularly with the endorsement of "The Des Moines Register."

You know, there is a very interesting dynamic that's going on right now if you look at the larger picture, Anderson, and that is I think that the Dean campaign is still strong, but the two real emerging candidacies are those of John Edwards and Wesley Clark.

And there is a real consistency between these three candidacies, which is basically they are all running positive, affirmative campaigns.

The campaigns of Gephardt and Kerry, two people that everybody expected to be frontrunners, are floundering way beyond the expectations of what everybody expected at this moment, and I think that's primarily because they're running basically attack campaigns against Dean. If there's a lesson to be learned I think in this primary season, and to be too Pollyannish about this, is that you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

Those people like John Edwards now, who are running positive campaigns or the campaigns that are seeming to get the momentum, those that are stuck on doing the negative attack campaigns, Kerry, and Gephardt in particular, are floundering. That's why I think it's such an extraordinary mistake today that Dean has come out with an attack ad against the others. I think it's an enormous miscalculation by him and Joe Trippi.

COOPER: Well, let me jump in here. Let's show some of that ad. This is the ad from Howard Dean you're talking about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where did the Washington Democrats stand on the war? Dick Gephardt wrote the resolution to authorize war. John Kerry and John Edwards both voted for the war. Then Dick Gephardt voted to spend another $87 billion on Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Carlos, what about that ad? Do you think it is a mistake?

WATSON: Anderson, I actually have to disagree with Julian on this. While I agree with him that there is some fresh momentum for Clark and for Edwards, in addition to Dean. I actually think the ad is a smart move. Ioawans, by a rate of 62 to 26, oppose the war, at least the Democratic likely caucus goers. And so I think reminding them where Dean stood in contrast to where some of the other folks stood I actually think makes a ton of sense.

But let's add this. When you ask the caucus goers, likely caucus goers, what matters the most, it's not the economy and it's not Iraq, but it's health care. So in addition to this ad, expect to see some fresh new ads from Dean and from others touting their positions on health care. It will make the difference.

EPSTEIN: Let me amplify why I think it is a mistake right now. Right now, Dean has the ability, he has the plurality, he has the ability to get 30 percent of the vote. I think there's a strong likelihood that Gephardt and Kerry will be gone by the end of January. Gephardt, remember, won in '88. He still couldn't get the money or the organization. He won Iowa in '88. He still couldn't get the money or organization to prosecute a campaign. If he comes in second, I think he's gone by the end of February. If Kerry comes in third in Massachusetts, I think he's gone by the end of January.

Then what happens is you're left with Dean versus either Edwards or Clark. And it becomes a very different question.

The question at that point becomes whether Dean can get more -- as much as 50 percent or 60 percent of the vote. For him to be attacking the other candidates right now is likely to push not just the candidates but their supporters into other people's camps. So I think this is a very short-sighted move on the part of Dean's. One of the few miscalculations of Joe Trippi.

WATSON: But, time out for a second. But Julian, time out. You're forgetting the master, the Democratic master, Bill Clinton. When Bill Clinton ran, while we all remember the comeback kid is him in the snow, in New Hampshire shaking hands and getting last-minute votes. Many of us forget the devastating attack pieces that he launched against Paul Tsongas and others. In fact, it took years before Paul Tsongas ultimately came back to his side and truly forgave him.

So I think a winner ultimately will play both offense and defense. I agree with you that you can't only be negative and you can't only play defense. But I think it would be a mistake if Dean didn't also attack a little bit.

COOPER: We will see, six days away, Monday night. Julian Epstein, good to talk to you. Carlos Watson as well. Thanks very much.

EPSTEIN: Thank you.

WATSON: Good to join you.

COOPER: Today, jury selection began in the manslaughter trial of former New Jersey Nets star Jayson Williams, who now faces 55 years in prison, if convicted. CNN's Deborah Feyerick has details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jayson Williams said nothing as he entered the Somerset County courthouse, leaving the talking to his lawyers.

BILLY MARTIN, WILLIAMS ATTORNEY: We assure you that if we seat a fair jury, Jayson Williams will be found not guilty. He didn't commit -- this was an accident. It was not a crime. And we look forward to being able to tell that to a jury.

FEYERICK: Standing as he was introduced to prospective jurors, Williams nodded, saying only "good morning, everyone."

Then jury selection got under way. Three hundred men and women filling out a 14-page questionnaire. Williams' lawyers are relying on jury consultant Jo-Ellan Dimitrius, best known for helping in the acquittals of O.J. Simpson and the four Rodney King police officers.

JO-ELLAN DIMITRIUS, JURY CONSULTANT: The biggest challenge in any kind of a high-profile case is truly to find those people that no matter what they have read, seen, or heard about the case can still keep an open mind.

FEYERICK: Prosecutors accuse Williams of recklessly pulling the trigger of his double-barreled shotgun, killing limo driver Gus Christofi. Christofi had been hired by Williams to chauffeur several friends and players from the Harlem Globetrotters to dinner, then to Williams' rambling estate.

The guests were taking a tour. Williams, showing the guns he kept in his bedroom. His lawyers say the shotgun accidentally misfired when Williams snapped it shut.

(on camera): Aggravated manslaughter carries a maximum 30-year sentence. Williams has also been charged with doctoring evidence and tampering with witnesses to make the shooting look like suicide. Opening statements are about three weeks away.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN, Somerville, New Jersey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: More justice served. Now, today, a key development in the Michael Jackson case. The presiding judge said the defense can review some pertinent police records that have been sealed from the public. We are talking about search warrants, affidavits, tape recordings. What does this mean? Two perspectives tonight. 360 legal analyst Kimberly Guilfoyle Newsom joins us here, in New York, good to see you.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE NEWSOM, 360 LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.

COOPER: And in Miami, Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney. Janie, good to see you as well, also.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi. Hi.

COOPER: Kimberly, let me start off with you. What kind of information are we talking about that may be contained in the search warrant and in this other information?

NEWSOM: Well, this is the exciting stuff about the case. It's the nuts and bolts of the case. And Geragos is going to get a first- hand look now at what kind of case the DA has and whether or not they are going to be able to make these charges stick against Jackson.

He would normally get them probably on Friday, when Jackson is arraigned on these charges. But it's the items that they are looking for in the house, anything that this alleged victim may have said that could corroborate his story, things in a computer, e-mail, et cetera, photographs. And what we're going to find out is in the search warrant return, what did they come up with after the search.

COOPER: It's going to be interesting. Janie Weintraub, though, did -- shouldn't Mark Geragos have already gotten this information? I mean, don't -- you are able to look at a search warrant when police search your house, aren't you?

WEINTRAUB: Well, you should be able to look at it, but the warrant itself is not the affidavit. The affidavit is the sexy part that Kimberly is talking about that we'll get now. The affidavit is what is the material that the judge sees that's in support of getting the warrant.

The warrant actually is only a piece of paper that says where they can search on Neverland and that it's a ranch and describes the physical characteristics.

But you know, interestingly enough, Anderson, what really they're looking for here is, was this stale? In other words, was this information old? Was this from eight months before, when they knew about the case and they didn't do anything to investigate it? That's what Mark wants to look at right away.

Remember, a search warrant is a one-sided document. So when you look at what is being asked for by the police or by the informant, it gives Mark and Michael Jackson an idea of who was saying what to the police.

COOPER: And clearly they are going to be looking for any kind of discrepancies about what was taken from the house versus what -- where the areas they could search. Because Michael Jackson on "60 Minutes" was saying that they trashed his bedroom, according to his housekeepers.

NEWSOM: That it was excessive, and abusive, and they had 70 sheriffs go in there. And that's a great point. And that's what the defense will look for. Did any of the searching exceed the scope of the warrant and what the D.A. sought to obtain? And if it did, then Geragos is going to try and suppress that evidence and if it's key evidence, it could severely damage the prosecution's case.

COOPER: I got to ask about what's going on with the Nation of Islam. If you were Michael Jackson's attorney, would you be welcoming with open arms, the Nation of Islam into your offices?

WEINTRAUB: I wouldn't welcome any fanatic group like that coming into a defense case, no. And I've been in that position. It is a horrible position. I'm sure Mark doesn't welcome it either. It is Michael Jackson's choice. It's his choice. It's his rights that are at stake here and it's his custodial issues. If he's convicted, Anderson, he's going to prison.

And there seems to be another question as to exactly what role the Nation of Islam is playing. I guess this man, Leonard Muhammad actually has an office in Mark Geragos' suite as far as I've read.

NEWSOM: Well, I've spoken to Mark Geragos about the Nation of Islam and what influence, if any, they're having in this case. He says they have no influence whatsoever on the criminal case and how this is going to proceed. It's questionable as to whether or not they're having any influence with Michael Jackson personally or with his business affairs or management. This isn't people against Michael Jackson represented by Nation of Islam.

COOPER: Jayne Weintraub, what are you going to be looking for Friday from this hearing?

WEINTRAUB: It will be interesting to see if it's a perfunctory ten-second procedure where he walks in and pleads not guilty on behalf of his client or whether or not he will, as he did with Scott Peterson, if Michael Jackson himself will get up and say, I am not guilty. I am innocent of these charges. I want a trial. So we'll see. But it should be a five-minute, very quick procedure.

COOPER: Oh, but I think it will be talked about for much more than five minutes. Somehow I'm guessing that.

WEINTRAUB: I'm sure the gag order will come up rather quickly as well.

COOPER: Yes, the gag order. That's another big question to answer. Jayne Weintraub, always good to talk to you. Kimberly Guilfoyle Newsom, again, good to talk to you here in New York.

Every Tuesday we look at a story that the media once covered closely but it simply dropped. Evidence of how quickly we forget. Tonight an update on the perplexing case of Brian Wells, the pizza delivery man who robbed a bank with a bomb strapped around his neck. You may have forgotten Brian Wells' name. But it is unlikely you've forgotten how he died.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): Brian Wells was the pizza delivery man who sat squatlegged in Erie, Pennsylvania, begging police to save him from the explosive device locked firmly around his neck. Police had stopped Wells after he robbed a bank, but they never took him in because the bomb went off. Immediately, law enforcement wanted to know if Wells acted alone in robbing the bank.

BOB RUDGE, FBI AGENT: We are to the point where we have discounted that as a possibility.

COOPER: Still unclear, whether Wells was a willing partner in a botched plan, or was he, as he told police in the last minutes of his life, a patsy, forced to rob the bank?

RUDGE: Mr. Wells was provided instruction...

COOPER: There was a five-page handwritten note telling Wells to drive a meandering route after the robbery. Other clues included a cane he had, a cane concealing a gun. But despite the searches of this garage and elsewhere, hundreds of tips, and a $50,000 reward, the FBI says no arrest is imminent or as the police told us today, quote, "there's nothing new." It's still a mystery.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: How quickly we forget. An actor/writer is missing. Details on the search for Spalding Gray coming up.

Plus, back on her board. A remarkable young woman. Bethany Hamilton, she survived a shark attack. Now she is back competing. She's going to talk to 360 about her remarkable willpower.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Love to hear from you, CNN.com/360. That's our email address. Send us email at any time. We try to respond to as many as we can.

Right now, police are searching for a man many of you may recognize. Spalding Gray is his name. A writer and actor for distinctively dark movie monologues. Gray vanished over the weekend. CNN's Jason Carroll has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He may not be a household name, but writer/actor Spalding Gray is known throughout the entertainment industry as the man with wit, an artist who can be introspective, humorous and outrageous. Now, he's missing.

Last seen in his downtown Manhattan apartment around 6:30 Saturday night. He was supposed to meet friends for dinner but never arrived. Police say Gray spoke to his 6-year-old son around 9:00 that night, calling his home in the Hamptons to tell him, "I'll see you soon." A family friend tells CNN Gray suffers from a history of depression, but has never disappeared like this before. His wife declined to comment.

SPALDING GRAY, ACTOR: My God, look how much of the jungle this movie controls.

CARROLL: Gray, 62, is known for writing and starring in the autobiographical "Swimming to Cambodia" and "Monster in a Box" and appearing in films such as "The Killing Fields" and "Beaches" but during an awards show he said he felt more in step with smaller projects.

GRAY: It is the only thing worth doing, independent film.

CARROLL: After he suffered head injuries in a 2001 car accident, Gray spoke in several interviews about his bout with depression that followed. He told "The Harvard Gazette" that his work only provided some degree of therapy. Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Changing gears. Let's check on some pop news in tonight's "Current." UPN has signed a deal with Queen Latifah to exec produce a sitcom in which a white woman gets hired at a hip-hop radio station. If the show succeeds, it's unique fish-out-of-water formula could become a sitcom staple.

The "New York Post" reports that Mickey Rourke was embarrassed at a Miami nightclub recently when another patron punched him in the face. The incident could have been more even more embarrassing for Rourke if he had still been famous.

All right. I'll move on. Ashton Kutcher told "Access Hollywood" -- it took a little while they kind of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in the end. Ashton Kutcher told "Access Hollywood" he has no plans to marry Demi Moore and that he ended his show "Punk'd" because, quote, "I get bored easily." In other words, time to spice it up, Demi.

Ratings for the crocodile hunter jumped almost 20 percent last week after host Steve Irwin dangled his baby boy in front of a crocodile he was feeding.

Join us tomorrow on 360 when I'll feeding my 3-year-old cousin to a pack of wild boars.

Shark attack survivor beats the odds. Bethany Hamilton returns to the competition circuit after losing one of her arms. An amazing young woman. You're going to hear from her, coming up.

First, today's buzz question. "Do you think doctors overprescribe antidepressants?" Vote now. CNN.com/360. We'll have results at the end of the program.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Now, a remarkable story of determination. Teen surfer Bethany Hamilton has returned to competition just 10 weeks after losing her left arm to a shark attack.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): Most mornings 13-year-old Bethany Hamilton loved nothing more than just getting in the water and catching a big wave. Bethany was an amateur surfing champion, ranked eighth in the world. Halloween morning, however, her life changed dramatically.

BETHANY HAMILTON, SURFER: A shark just, like, came up and attacked me. And it, like, kind of pulled me back and forth. It was about a two- to three-second period.

COOPER: A 14-foot tiger shark severed her left arm just below the shoulder. She lost a lot of blood, but was lucky to be alive.

Amazingly, her recuperation has been quick. For weeks, Bethany practiced her balance on an improvised board, determined to get back in the water.

HAMILTON: You know, what I really want to do is go home and surf.

COOPER: On Thanksgiving, she did just that, paddling with one arm to meet the mornings's waves.

And this weekend, Bethany reached another milestone. Her first competition since the shark attack 10 weeks ago.

The competition was in Hawaii. Event organizers offered Bethany special treatment, but she refused.

During her quarterfinal heat, she caught a six-foot wave. In the end, Bethany placed fifth in the competition.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Fifth place. Great job. The surfer girl who is beating the odds, Bethany Hamilton, joins us now from Chicago. Hey, Bethany, good to see you again. Congratulations on doing fifth. How do you feel about how you did?

HAMILTON: I was definitely stoked, because my original goal was not to get last in my first heat. And actually, I just kept on making it all the way to the final, so I was really happy.

COOPER: What's different, I mean, surfing now compared to the way you were surfing before?

HAMILTON: Paddling is a lot harder, because you have half as much speed as before. And then taking off is probably the hardest thing after the incident. And I am definitely going to need some work on that.

COOPER: Taking off, you mean like getting up on the board once you're on a wave?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Like, you paddle into the wave, the first part of the wave when you, like, stand up.

COOPER: Is it the balance that's kind of tough to figure out?

HAMILTON: Well, usually both hands are on each side of the rail, and then -- but now I have to, like -- if my hand is not in the exact middle of the board, then I fall to the side because I off balance myself.

COOPER: When you entered the competition, I guess the judges there, the people who were running it said they were willing to kind of put you in a special category, kind of give you some breaks. But you told them no, you wanted to be treated just like everybody else. Why?

HAMILTON: Well, OK. This is what happened. Like, there is two divisions. I finished the first division. And then I was -- right when I came in, I had to go back out. They said, oh, we can change it so, like, you have, like, a half-hour break. And I just felt that I just not like get any special treatment, because I'd rather just be normal and just go out and do my best.

COOPER: What's it like for you? I mean, you're now a big celebrity. I mean, everyone -- people know your name. You know, you're an inspiration to, you know, millions of people out there. I know there was an inner-faith Web site that named you one of the I think the 10 most inspirational people of this past year. What is that like for you? You're 13 years old.

HAMILTON: I guess it's exciting.

COOPER: Does it feel weird to have so much attention?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Like, I'm not used to people, like, walking up to me, and then they're, like, oh, hi, you're that girl on TV. Yeah, I was like, oh, yeah. They're, like, can I have your autograph? I'm like, oh, I hate autographs. But I just did it anyway.

COOPER: Well, that's cool. That's nice of you to take the time to do it.

So you didn't have any -- you know, I guess a lot of people ask the question, did you feel nervous at all getting back in the water? I mean, as you get in the water now, is it just like being a fish, getting back in the water, or do you feel, you know, do you think about sharks? Do you think about what might happen?

HAMILTON: Oh, like, sharks, like, they always come up in my mind now. But I try not to think about it. I just want to have -- mostly have fun with all my, like, friends and stuff.

COOPER: Well, that's cool. I hope you're having a lot of fun. You deserve it. Bethany Hamilton, it's always great to talk to you. You rock. Thanks very much for being with us. HAMILTON: Bye.

COOPER: Bye.

The king of pop, the queen of nice. Whatever happened to America's royalty? We're going to take all of them to "The Nth Degree," that is coming up.

Tomorrow on 360, a killer is in prison, but get this, he's using the Internet to taunt his victim's mother. We're going to talk to the mom haunted by a killer's cyber attacks. That's tomorrow.

And first, tonight's buzz. Do you think doctors overprescribe antidepressants? Vote now at cnn.com/360. We're going to have results when we come back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Time now for "The Buzz." We asked you, do you think doctors overprescribe antidepressants? Seventy-three percent of you said yes; 27 percent no. Not a scientific poll, just your buzz. We appreciate it.

Tonight, taking royalty to "The Nth Degree." Recently, a number of high-profile celebrities seem to have lost the royal titles they once held.

Consider Michael Jackson. He declared himself king of pop and demanded that we accept his sovereignty. Sure, the media put up a struggle, but eventually resistance fell, and the media recognized Jackson as a legitimate monarch of pop.

After that, royalty reigned. Americans, who had once fought to overthrow a monarchy bowed to a new generation of royals. Rosie O'Donnell was coronated the queen of nice. Ozzy Osbourne was venerated as the crown prince of darkness.

Lesser princes were also recognized in the house of darkness, including, of course, CNN's own Bob Novak. But remember, heavy is the head that wears the crown. The king of pop's grip on his kingdom has slipped. Border rebels have rejected his reign outright. And recently, his palace was stormed by representatives of the people.

The queen of nice? She, too, has been dethroned. And maybe this is the way America is supposed to be. A land free of royalty, a land where one man and one man alone is king. That man is Larry.

That wraps up our program tonight. Thanks for watching. Coming up next, "PAULA ZAHN NOW."

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Criticism>


International Edition
CNN TV CNN International Headline News Transcripts Advertise With Us About Us
SEARCH
   The Web    CNN.com     
Powered by
© 2005 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.
A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines. Contact us.
external link
All external sites will open in a new browser.
CNN.com does not endorse external sites.
 Premium content icon Denotes premium content.
Add RSS headlines.