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CNN Live At Daybreak
Interview With Pervez Musharraf
Aired January 23, 2004 - 05:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: A CNN special interview. Our Christiane Amanpour is about to conduct a live interview with Pakistan's President General Pervez Musharraf.
We switch you now to our sister network, CNN International, for that.
And in the meantime, President Musharraf is attending a World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. You're seeing some live pictures there right now. Pakistan is investigating whether any of its scientists provided nuclear secrets to Iran. He's sure to be asked about that, as well as the long running feud with India over claims to the Kashmir region. India and Pakistan have fought two wars over the region and both nations possess nuclear weapons.
Now we want to go to Christiane Amanpour for that interview.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, we'd like to welcome (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for a live interview with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf.
Chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour is going to be conducting that interview and she joins us now from London -- Christiane.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Shehab (ph), thank you very much, indeed.
President Musharraf of Pakistan joins us from a gathering of world leaders in Davos, Switzerland known as the World Economic Forum.
Mr. Musharraf, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us.
There are a lot of issues that Pakistan is heavily involved with right now and I'd like to start, if I may, with one of the hottest button issues, and that is nuclear proliferation.
Your government has just announced this week that with the inquiry it is conducting into the issue, that it is banning all of its nuclear scientists working on your programs there from leaving the country.
What does that mean in terms of the inquiry and how far is that inquiry along?
PRES. PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTAN: Well, there are some accusations against some individual scientists in Pakistan for having proliferated for their personal financial gains. But may I also say there are equal accusations against a number of personalities internationally, some Europeans, and there are accusations against some other European countries, also. So it's not Pakistan alone.
But what we are doing, we are investigating against all the names that we've got and more than that, we are trying to ensure that there is no such leakage in the future also. Therefore, we are putting everyone into some kind of investigation and finally the result of the investigation, based on the result of the investigation, we will move against any violators because they are enemies of the state.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, how long do you think it will take to complete your inquiry?
MUSHARRAF: Well, I think it should be completed very shortly. We have gone a long way. It should be completed, I am talking of a few weeks, in fact.
AMANPOUR: One of the people who have been questioned has said that the nuclear transfer that took part, took place in the '80s or so was approved by the then head of the army. One of your top scientists has told investigators that.
MUSHARRAF: I think these are absolutely wrong aspersions. These are aspersions throwing the blame away from the individual himself, maybe. But this is not the case at all. But, however, I wouldn't be able to say anything definitive. We are inquiring. But till now, this I know, that there is no official of the state or the government involvement at all, that these are individuals against whom we are inquiring and we will hold them responsible and move against them.
There is no such evidence that any government personality or a military personality was involved in this at all.
AMANPOUR: The transfer in question is to Iran and both the Iranians have told the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency, that, in fact, they did receive knowledge and technology and nuclear help from Pakistan, perhaps in the '80s.
MUSHARRAF: Yes, these are the accusations which originated from Iran and they are naming some individual. And as I said, the list of individuals contains Pakistanis and some Europeans also. But as far as the Pakistanis are concerned, it is very clear till now the investigations reveal that this has been done by individuals for their own personal financial gains, as I said. There is no official involvement as yet.
AMANPOUR: Critics will say to that how is it possible that an issue so sensitive and so highly secretive as nuclear technology could be transferred, even by individuals, without the knowledge of very high ranking either military or government officials? How could that be, do you think?
MUSHARRAF: Well, this is very much a possibility. Our nuclear program, may I say, was totally covert in the past and in maintaining the covert status, in maintaining the security, obviously a lot of leverage, a lot of authority or autonomy was -- had to be given to individuals or originated scientists organizations to move forward. And that is what, if an -- if some of the responsible ones themselves got involved and misused their authority in developing our nuclear capability, that was really a pity and that is what happened.
So there wasn't -- it wasn't -- now that it is overt absolutely, there is total custodial controls and checks and balances introduced. And it is not a possibility anymore.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, what has made Pakistan change its tone over the last few months? Certainly in the past, Pakistan furiously denied any kind of transfer at any point to any nation. Now Pakistan is saying essentially what you've just said, that it's not with government sanctions, but that perhaps some individuals are doing so for their own personal financial gain and ambition.
You've changed the tone of the denial.
What made you do that?
MUSHARRAF: No. Basically, facts and figures, it's the intelligence. I mean the (AUDIO GAP) that government is not at all involved in any proliferation. And let me say our investigation, which we have carried out, no government in the past proliferated. Now there are individuals, I would like to repeat, to reiterate, these are individuals who we didn't know about. Now that somebody accused them, we started investigating. Now, when there is no accusation, there is no intelligence or information against anybody, how do we know?
So it's not a question of changing stands or saying something else previously and saying something else now. It is just that names have been revealed and we have information and we have investigated and we are coming to certain conclusions now. Previously, we didn't know anything about it.
AMANPOUR: Do you know what kind of a conclusion that you're going to come to?
MUSHARRAF: Well, I would not like to predict, but it appears some individuals, as I said, were involved for personal financial gain.
AMANPOUR: Now, the United States, as you know, believes that Pakistan has been involved in the transfer of nuclear technology not only to Iran, which you've mentioned, but also to North Korea and to Libya, and specifically to Libya the design technology of the centrifuges which are required for enriching uranium.
MUSHARRAF: I wouldn't like to go into details. We are investigating. We, let me say that let the world not even imagine that it is Pakistan alone which has done that. There is an underworld which has got, which is getting uncovered, an underworld of individuals, an underworld of maybe some organizations and factories involved in the manufacture of refined items. So it's a whole list of underworld elements involved. I would like to say that there are European countries and individuals also involved. So let it not be only known that only Pakistanis are involved. So it's a whole underworld which needs to be unearthed and we are doing our best to see the linkages of Pakistanis involved and we will take action against them.
AMANPOUR: But since we are talking to you as the president of Pakistan and this Libya thing is particularly in the news right now, I don't hear you denying the possibility that nuclear transfer of design technology could have taken place between Pakistan and Libya.
MUSHARRAF: Well, I am not denying anything because we are investigating, as I said. We want to know. We've sent teams to Libya. We've sent teams to Iran and we are in contact with IAEA. We are collecting all the data. We are collecting all the facts from them and also the investigation within our own organizations is taking place.
We, there is nothing that we want to hide. We want to be verify up and clear about it, that we will move against anybody who has proliferated, any individual, we will take very strong action against him.
But what I get concerned about is there is apparently in the media a perception being created that Pakistan is the only culprit around in the world. That is not the case.
AMANPOUR: In your speech to parliament, which was quite spirited, perhaps we could say, on Saturday, you said, among other things, that Pakistan has to do a lot to persuade the world that -- of many things, including the fact that you are a responsible nuclear power.
How do you plan to persuade the world of that given these accusations and suspicions?
MUSHARRAF: Well, yes, indeed, I think we are. The media plays a very important role. They must understand, they must be clear that it's not the government, it's individuals who will be taken to task. Other than that, we certainly, the IAEA should know that there are great controls, custodial controls, and everything is under great check and supervision. There are a number of rings of organizations ensuring the safety and security of all the organization and all the assets that we have, we own.
And let me assure you that in Pakistan, such controls where even the army gets involved, even a bolt in a rifle of an army cannot be lost and the person will be moved against and he will be court- martialed if that happened, leave aside any proliferation of strategic assets.
So I am very sure that our strategic assets are under great custodial controls and there is no -- we need to convince the world on it. We are already interacting with important players of the world and they do understand what we are doing. They are totally cognizant of the realities on the ground, that the Pakistan government is doing its maximum and everything is in safe hands.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you this. You said even a bolt of a rifle can't be missing without the highest levels of command knowing about it.
How could nuclear technology have taken place without the highest levels of government or military command knowing about it? This is presumably before your time as president, but still.
MUSHARRAF: Yes. Technology is on computers. Technology is on paper. Technology is in minds of people. So one shouldn't think that it needs aircraft modes of movements. So it's much simpler there.
And the other thing that I said earlier, when individuals who are responsible for developing things themselves are involved, well, and there's a covert plan or a covert development going on, these possibilities did exist in the past, but now they don't, certainly.
AMANPOUR: And how are you going to deal with the domestic fallout? As you know, a lot of the opposition politicians in your country are accusing you of bowing to U.S. pressure. Demonstrations are planned. There's a lot of opposition because of how high the nuclear scientists are held in Pakistani esteem.
How are you going to deal with that?
MUSHARRAF: No, no, there won't be any problem. They understand that. We, I have interacted with most of them myself. But there are some vested quarters who have made it a fashion to sort of say that this is always under you, everything happens to be under U.S. pressure. Nothing of the sort. There is no U.S. pressure. We are cognizant of whatever has happened and we are investigating all that.
These are vested interests who want to undermine my authority, my position, the government's position, and cast us in bad light that we are some kind of rubber stamps of the United States and we do things under their pressure. That is not the reality.
These are -- this is a small group who tends to do these things.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Musharraf, we're going to take a short break now and we're going to come back in a couple of minutes and continue this interview.
We'll talk about India and about the Taliban right after a break.
MUSHARRAF: Thank you.
Thank you.
COMMERCIAL
AMANPOUR: To our viewers in the United States and around the world, welcome back to this interview in progress with the president of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, who joins us from Davos, Switzerland at the World Economic Forum. Mr. Musharraf, we want to continue. We've talked about the nuclear issue and now I want to ask you about India, which is of great worry and concern to the region and to the rest of the world.
Almost, two, three wars have been fought and we nearly came to the brink of another war in 2000. Peace negotiations have basically broken down and yet you've just had a meeting with the prime minister of India in which you have both pledged to restart peace negotiations and particularly over the issue of Kashmir.
Can you tell us when you plan these meetings to start and at what level of representation? Who will be leading these negotiations?
MUSHARRAF: Well, we have still to take a decision. Negotiations are going on, talks are going on between the two foreign offices. And a decision will be taken at the level, on the level, and location or venue of the talks. But they will take place -- they have to take place in February because that is what we decided in the written statement, the drawn statement that we gave.
AMANPOUR: And do you think it'll be a very high level representation? I mean leaders such as yourself, foreign ministers, what do you think?
MUSHARRAF: No, I don't think it'll be at that, at the summit level. It has to be starting at a lower level than the summit. As I said, I don't really know the level. But we are talking about it. It can't be at the summit level.
AMANPOUR: Do you have any new formula or any kind of idea whereby you would resolve the Kashmir issue?
MUSHARRAF: Well, you know that it's such a contentious issue. As you said before, three wars and we came on the brink of a fourth one. We need to have a step wise approach. Two steps have been taken and I've been saying a four step approach. Step one, start negotiating; step two, accept the reality of Kashmir to be resolved; and step three then, through a process of elimination, eliminate anything not acceptable to India, Pakistan and the people of Kashmir; and then go on for step four, out of the remaining solutions, select the one which is acceptable to all three, India, Pakistan and Kashmir.
So we are not really discussing the solutions as yet. We've taken the first two steps and now, when with the start of negotiations, we are to move on a composite dialogue, deal with all issues and including Kashmir. As far as Kashmir is concerned, there will be various committees which will have to be formed to deal with each issue. So the Kashmir committee, I suppose, will deal with the Kashmir issue. And let us see how we move forward on the next steps, as I said, a process of elimination and selecting one which is acceptable to all three parties involved.
AMANPOUR: Now, as you proceed, as you know, the accusations, certainly from the Indian side, are that Pakistan supports the Islamic insurgency in Kashmir. And recently in your speech to parliament you have said that -- you have said that you have to in general take massive steps to prove to the world that Pakistan is a country that does not support extremism and that is not supporting in any kind of Islamic or other kind of extremism.
Does this translate to your actions in Kashmir?
MUSHARRAF: Well, I wouldn't like to get involved now that such rapprochement in foreign relations has taken place. There have been accusations and counter accusations. We have been accused of cross border terrorism. We call that a freedom struggle. We accuse India of human rights violations and atrocities against civilians.
Let us not talk about these things. Let us be looking forward and in looking forward we've reached an agreement, a written statement has been issued and we need to move forward on a composite dialogue which will also address the Kashmir issue.
I don't want to look back on accusations and counter accusations.
AMANPOUR: Let me switch to Afghanistan, your other big border issue. There have been many, many accusations, and those who are -- those of us who've traveled in Afghanistan recently have seen a very alarming resurgence of the Taliban in areas towards the Pakistan border. And not just the president of Afghanistan, but leaders in the United States are saying that your country is simply not doing enough, still, to deny those insurgents, the Taliban remnants or whoever, and their supporters, access across from Pakistan into Afghanistan.
I mean has this reached a serious enough level yet for you to really stamp it out, as you've promised in the past?
MUSHARRAF: Well, these are unfortunate statements by any leader. And no leader in the United States, I don't think any leader has said that we are not doing enough and we need to do more. But it is unfortunate that these statements come from foreign leadership.
Let me, let me tell you that we analyzed the number of actions which have taken place in the 50 mile belt in Afghanistan from Pakistan in on our western border and beyond 50 miles. Let me tell you for the record that only 44 percent of the actions that take place in Afghanistan take place in the 50 mile belt and 56 percent take place beyond 50 miles. So if all the operations in the 50 mile belt that are taking place from Pakistan, only 44 percent is taking place.
So let us not carry out that this is a terrible thing to be accusing each other. We are fighting the same enemy. We are fighting al Qaeda and Taliban and the (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Now, if we start throwing blames on each other, we weaken our positions. Let us know that the intentions are very noble, we are all together, there may be some defects in capabilities on both sides and these al Qaeda operatives are operating on both sides of the border, less in Pakistan, more in Afghanistan.
Let there be no foreign leader to repeat this aspect that everything is happening from Pakistan. That is not the reality. Let everyone stop bad mouthing Pakistan. That is not the case. We are one country which has done the maximum against al Qaeda and the world knows it and they should know it.
AMANPOUR: OK, well, let me ask you this then, you've just sent a very high level, the highest level representation to Afghanistan, your prime minister. What is your solution for what is most definitely a resurgence of Taliban activity?
MUSHARRAF: No, I don't think there's a resurgence, frankly. If you, this is what is being said in the media. But if you go into the details and maybe ask the Central Command commander, General Abizaid, you will come to a different conclusion. He will tell you something, a different story altogether. So there is a misperception in the media which is not the reality, which is not what officials, those people who are involved in operations, they don't think likewise.
Let me tell you what I know. And I know that those involved know this, also, that the operations on our side of the border, on the Pakistani side, our intelligence network is well in place and it is improving by the day. And our force, a quick reaction, hard hitting force is on ground improving by the day in capability. We have moved against a number of targets and achieved a number of successes. Al Qaeda is on the run. They are hiding. They are leaving the area. Let me repeat, they are leaving that area because of our operations. And this is known by those who are operating on the Afghan side, also, let me tell you this.
So let the media know the reality on the ground. On the one side, also, with the ISAF (ph) reaching outside Kabul and U.S. forces also expanding, the story is different from what is being felt by the media. I think the operations, the atrocities or the terrorist attacks are on the wane and they are tactical in nature. They are not strategic in nature. There is no strategic threat which is coming about, really, of al Qaeda and the Taliban united, uniting to pose a strategic threat in Afghanistan.
AMANPOUR: OK, let's switch quickly to issues of your own domestic politics inside Pakistan.
Two significant attempts on your life over the last month.
Do you know who was responsible for that? And given the incredible amount of opposition, the united alliance against you, the Muslim parties, what are your prospects for political survival?
MUSHARRAF: Well, in the threat to my life, no political party is involved, not a single of the Muslim parties is involved, certainly. But our investigations -- and we have rounded up all the people directly involved -- but the people who are behind that, yes, we are reasonably sure that it is al Qaeda, some operatives. We haven't got to the top of the, identified the person who may have issued the orders, but we know that there are linkages, that maybe the idea came from the al Qaeda.
But on the other side, who has executed it and who is the -- whether there's an organization behind the executors or some individual extremists are involved, that is still to be clarified. I think we have met a lot of successes in unearthing them. That's a very optimistic situation because then we have in the process, we have unearthed people who are involved, who are involved in the other terrorist activities within Pakistan.
So there has been an optimistic outcome of this unfortunate attack.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Musharraf, we're nearly out of time.
There's a lot more to discuss and we want to thank you for all the time that you've given us.
I wanted to ask you one final question that I ask on a humanitarian level, and perhaps in journalistic solidarity. It would mean a lot to the management of CNN if you might perhaps investigate what's happened to a Pakistani journalist who was accompanying two French journalists who were arrested in the Pakistan-Afghanistan border area. And the family and colleagues of the Pakistani journalist have not heard from him, even though the French journalists were released more than a week ago.
I wonder if you know anything about it and you might ask your people to investigate that.
MUSHARRAF: Yes, I will, I will certainly do that. But I hold him in the poorest of opinion, a man contriving with the French journalists and trying to concoct a movie showing Pakistan in bad light. He's the most unpatriotic man, he doesn't deserve any sympathy whatsoever because he was trying to bring harm to my country and he is the most unpatriotic man. They are trying to fabricate a story within Pakistan and purporting it to be Taliban activity from Pakistan in Afghanistan.
I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.
However, now that you have said it, I don't know where he is. I would like to find out where the hell he is.
AMANPOUR: On that note, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us, Mr. President.
We appreciate it.
MUSHARRAF: Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: We go to a break now.
That concludes our interview with the president of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, from Davos, Switzerland.
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Aired January 23, 2004 - 05:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: A CNN special interview. Our Christiane Amanpour is about to conduct a live interview with Pakistan's President General Pervez Musharraf.
We switch you now to our sister network, CNN International, for that.
And in the meantime, President Musharraf is attending a World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. You're seeing some live pictures there right now. Pakistan is investigating whether any of its scientists provided nuclear secrets to Iran. He's sure to be asked about that, as well as the long running feud with India over claims to the Kashmir region. India and Pakistan have fought two wars over the region and both nations possess nuclear weapons.
Now we want to go to Christiane Amanpour for that interview.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, we'd like to welcome (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for a live interview with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf.
Chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour is going to be conducting that interview and she joins us now from London -- Christiane.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Shehab (ph), thank you very much, indeed.
President Musharraf of Pakistan joins us from a gathering of world leaders in Davos, Switzerland known as the World Economic Forum.
Mr. Musharraf, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us.
There are a lot of issues that Pakistan is heavily involved with right now and I'd like to start, if I may, with one of the hottest button issues, and that is nuclear proliferation.
Your government has just announced this week that with the inquiry it is conducting into the issue, that it is banning all of its nuclear scientists working on your programs there from leaving the country.
What does that mean in terms of the inquiry and how far is that inquiry along?
PRES. PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTAN: Well, there are some accusations against some individual scientists in Pakistan for having proliferated for their personal financial gains. But may I also say there are equal accusations against a number of personalities internationally, some Europeans, and there are accusations against some other European countries, also. So it's not Pakistan alone.
But what we are doing, we are investigating against all the names that we've got and more than that, we are trying to ensure that there is no such leakage in the future also. Therefore, we are putting everyone into some kind of investigation and finally the result of the investigation, based on the result of the investigation, we will move against any violators because they are enemies of the state.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, how long do you think it will take to complete your inquiry?
MUSHARRAF: Well, I think it should be completed very shortly. We have gone a long way. It should be completed, I am talking of a few weeks, in fact.
AMANPOUR: One of the people who have been questioned has said that the nuclear transfer that took part, took place in the '80s or so was approved by the then head of the army. One of your top scientists has told investigators that.
MUSHARRAF: I think these are absolutely wrong aspersions. These are aspersions throwing the blame away from the individual himself, maybe. But this is not the case at all. But, however, I wouldn't be able to say anything definitive. We are inquiring. But till now, this I know, that there is no official of the state or the government involvement at all, that these are individuals against whom we are inquiring and we will hold them responsible and move against them.
There is no such evidence that any government personality or a military personality was involved in this at all.
AMANPOUR: The transfer in question is to Iran and both the Iranians have told the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency, that, in fact, they did receive knowledge and technology and nuclear help from Pakistan, perhaps in the '80s.
MUSHARRAF: Yes, these are the accusations which originated from Iran and they are naming some individual. And as I said, the list of individuals contains Pakistanis and some Europeans also. But as far as the Pakistanis are concerned, it is very clear till now the investigations reveal that this has been done by individuals for their own personal financial gains, as I said. There is no official involvement as yet.
AMANPOUR: Critics will say to that how is it possible that an issue so sensitive and so highly secretive as nuclear technology could be transferred, even by individuals, without the knowledge of very high ranking either military or government officials? How could that be, do you think?
MUSHARRAF: Well, this is very much a possibility. Our nuclear program, may I say, was totally covert in the past and in maintaining the covert status, in maintaining the security, obviously a lot of leverage, a lot of authority or autonomy was -- had to be given to individuals or originated scientists organizations to move forward. And that is what, if an -- if some of the responsible ones themselves got involved and misused their authority in developing our nuclear capability, that was really a pity and that is what happened.
So there wasn't -- it wasn't -- now that it is overt absolutely, there is total custodial controls and checks and balances introduced. And it is not a possibility anymore.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, what has made Pakistan change its tone over the last few months? Certainly in the past, Pakistan furiously denied any kind of transfer at any point to any nation. Now Pakistan is saying essentially what you've just said, that it's not with government sanctions, but that perhaps some individuals are doing so for their own personal financial gain and ambition.
You've changed the tone of the denial.
What made you do that?
MUSHARRAF: No. Basically, facts and figures, it's the intelligence. I mean the (AUDIO GAP) that government is not at all involved in any proliferation. And let me say our investigation, which we have carried out, no government in the past proliferated. Now there are individuals, I would like to repeat, to reiterate, these are individuals who we didn't know about. Now that somebody accused them, we started investigating. Now, when there is no accusation, there is no intelligence or information against anybody, how do we know?
So it's not a question of changing stands or saying something else previously and saying something else now. It is just that names have been revealed and we have information and we have investigated and we are coming to certain conclusions now. Previously, we didn't know anything about it.
AMANPOUR: Do you know what kind of a conclusion that you're going to come to?
MUSHARRAF: Well, I would not like to predict, but it appears some individuals, as I said, were involved for personal financial gain.
AMANPOUR: Now, the United States, as you know, believes that Pakistan has been involved in the transfer of nuclear technology not only to Iran, which you've mentioned, but also to North Korea and to Libya, and specifically to Libya the design technology of the centrifuges which are required for enriching uranium.
MUSHARRAF: I wouldn't like to go into details. We are investigating. We, let me say that let the world not even imagine that it is Pakistan alone which has done that. There is an underworld which has got, which is getting uncovered, an underworld of individuals, an underworld of maybe some organizations and factories involved in the manufacture of refined items. So it's a whole list of underworld elements involved. I would like to say that there are European countries and individuals also involved. So let it not be only known that only Pakistanis are involved. So it's a whole underworld which needs to be unearthed and we are doing our best to see the linkages of Pakistanis involved and we will take action against them.
AMANPOUR: But since we are talking to you as the president of Pakistan and this Libya thing is particularly in the news right now, I don't hear you denying the possibility that nuclear transfer of design technology could have taken place between Pakistan and Libya.
MUSHARRAF: Well, I am not denying anything because we are investigating, as I said. We want to know. We've sent teams to Libya. We've sent teams to Iran and we are in contact with IAEA. We are collecting all the data. We are collecting all the facts from them and also the investigation within our own organizations is taking place.
We, there is nothing that we want to hide. We want to be verify up and clear about it, that we will move against anybody who has proliferated, any individual, we will take very strong action against him.
But what I get concerned about is there is apparently in the media a perception being created that Pakistan is the only culprit around in the world. That is not the case.
AMANPOUR: In your speech to parliament, which was quite spirited, perhaps we could say, on Saturday, you said, among other things, that Pakistan has to do a lot to persuade the world that -- of many things, including the fact that you are a responsible nuclear power.
How do you plan to persuade the world of that given these accusations and suspicions?
MUSHARRAF: Well, yes, indeed, I think we are. The media plays a very important role. They must understand, they must be clear that it's not the government, it's individuals who will be taken to task. Other than that, we certainly, the IAEA should know that there are great controls, custodial controls, and everything is under great check and supervision. There are a number of rings of organizations ensuring the safety and security of all the organization and all the assets that we have, we own.
And let me assure you that in Pakistan, such controls where even the army gets involved, even a bolt in a rifle of an army cannot be lost and the person will be moved against and he will be court- martialed if that happened, leave aside any proliferation of strategic assets.
So I am very sure that our strategic assets are under great custodial controls and there is no -- we need to convince the world on it. We are already interacting with important players of the world and they do understand what we are doing. They are totally cognizant of the realities on the ground, that the Pakistan government is doing its maximum and everything is in safe hands.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you this. You said even a bolt of a rifle can't be missing without the highest levels of command knowing about it.
How could nuclear technology have taken place without the highest levels of government or military command knowing about it? This is presumably before your time as president, but still.
MUSHARRAF: Yes. Technology is on computers. Technology is on paper. Technology is in minds of people. So one shouldn't think that it needs aircraft modes of movements. So it's much simpler there.
And the other thing that I said earlier, when individuals who are responsible for developing things themselves are involved, well, and there's a covert plan or a covert development going on, these possibilities did exist in the past, but now they don't, certainly.
AMANPOUR: And how are you going to deal with the domestic fallout? As you know, a lot of the opposition politicians in your country are accusing you of bowing to U.S. pressure. Demonstrations are planned. There's a lot of opposition because of how high the nuclear scientists are held in Pakistani esteem.
How are you going to deal with that?
MUSHARRAF: No, no, there won't be any problem. They understand that. We, I have interacted with most of them myself. But there are some vested quarters who have made it a fashion to sort of say that this is always under you, everything happens to be under U.S. pressure. Nothing of the sort. There is no U.S. pressure. We are cognizant of whatever has happened and we are investigating all that.
These are vested interests who want to undermine my authority, my position, the government's position, and cast us in bad light that we are some kind of rubber stamps of the United States and we do things under their pressure. That is not the reality.
These are -- this is a small group who tends to do these things.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Musharraf, we're going to take a short break now and we're going to come back in a couple of minutes and continue this interview.
We'll talk about India and about the Taliban right after a break.
MUSHARRAF: Thank you.
Thank you.
COMMERCIAL
AMANPOUR: To our viewers in the United States and around the world, welcome back to this interview in progress with the president of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, who joins us from Davos, Switzerland at the World Economic Forum. Mr. Musharraf, we want to continue. We've talked about the nuclear issue and now I want to ask you about India, which is of great worry and concern to the region and to the rest of the world.
Almost, two, three wars have been fought and we nearly came to the brink of another war in 2000. Peace negotiations have basically broken down and yet you've just had a meeting with the prime minister of India in which you have both pledged to restart peace negotiations and particularly over the issue of Kashmir.
Can you tell us when you plan these meetings to start and at what level of representation? Who will be leading these negotiations?
MUSHARRAF: Well, we have still to take a decision. Negotiations are going on, talks are going on between the two foreign offices. And a decision will be taken at the level, on the level, and location or venue of the talks. But they will take place -- they have to take place in February because that is what we decided in the written statement, the drawn statement that we gave.
AMANPOUR: And do you think it'll be a very high level representation? I mean leaders such as yourself, foreign ministers, what do you think?
MUSHARRAF: No, I don't think it'll be at that, at the summit level. It has to be starting at a lower level than the summit. As I said, I don't really know the level. But we are talking about it. It can't be at the summit level.
AMANPOUR: Do you have any new formula or any kind of idea whereby you would resolve the Kashmir issue?
MUSHARRAF: Well, you know that it's such a contentious issue. As you said before, three wars and we came on the brink of a fourth one. We need to have a step wise approach. Two steps have been taken and I've been saying a four step approach. Step one, start negotiating; step two, accept the reality of Kashmir to be resolved; and step three then, through a process of elimination, eliminate anything not acceptable to India, Pakistan and the people of Kashmir; and then go on for step four, out of the remaining solutions, select the one which is acceptable to all three, India, Pakistan and Kashmir.
So we are not really discussing the solutions as yet. We've taken the first two steps and now, when with the start of negotiations, we are to move on a composite dialogue, deal with all issues and including Kashmir. As far as Kashmir is concerned, there will be various committees which will have to be formed to deal with each issue. So the Kashmir committee, I suppose, will deal with the Kashmir issue. And let us see how we move forward on the next steps, as I said, a process of elimination and selecting one which is acceptable to all three parties involved.
AMANPOUR: Now, as you proceed, as you know, the accusations, certainly from the Indian side, are that Pakistan supports the Islamic insurgency in Kashmir. And recently in your speech to parliament you have said that -- you have said that you have to in general take massive steps to prove to the world that Pakistan is a country that does not support extremism and that is not supporting in any kind of Islamic or other kind of extremism.
Does this translate to your actions in Kashmir?
MUSHARRAF: Well, I wouldn't like to get involved now that such rapprochement in foreign relations has taken place. There have been accusations and counter accusations. We have been accused of cross border terrorism. We call that a freedom struggle. We accuse India of human rights violations and atrocities against civilians.
Let us not talk about these things. Let us be looking forward and in looking forward we've reached an agreement, a written statement has been issued and we need to move forward on a composite dialogue which will also address the Kashmir issue.
I don't want to look back on accusations and counter accusations.
AMANPOUR: Let me switch to Afghanistan, your other big border issue. There have been many, many accusations, and those who are -- those of us who've traveled in Afghanistan recently have seen a very alarming resurgence of the Taliban in areas towards the Pakistan border. And not just the president of Afghanistan, but leaders in the United States are saying that your country is simply not doing enough, still, to deny those insurgents, the Taliban remnants or whoever, and their supporters, access across from Pakistan into Afghanistan.
I mean has this reached a serious enough level yet for you to really stamp it out, as you've promised in the past?
MUSHARRAF: Well, these are unfortunate statements by any leader. And no leader in the United States, I don't think any leader has said that we are not doing enough and we need to do more. But it is unfortunate that these statements come from foreign leadership.
Let me, let me tell you that we analyzed the number of actions which have taken place in the 50 mile belt in Afghanistan from Pakistan in on our western border and beyond 50 miles. Let me tell you for the record that only 44 percent of the actions that take place in Afghanistan take place in the 50 mile belt and 56 percent take place beyond 50 miles. So if all the operations in the 50 mile belt that are taking place from Pakistan, only 44 percent is taking place.
So let us not carry out that this is a terrible thing to be accusing each other. We are fighting the same enemy. We are fighting al Qaeda and Taliban and the (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Now, if we start throwing blames on each other, we weaken our positions. Let us know that the intentions are very noble, we are all together, there may be some defects in capabilities on both sides and these al Qaeda operatives are operating on both sides of the border, less in Pakistan, more in Afghanistan.
Let there be no foreign leader to repeat this aspect that everything is happening from Pakistan. That is not the reality. Let everyone stop bad mouthing Pakistan. That is not the case. We are one country which has done the maximum against al Qaeda and the world knows it and they should know it.
AMANPOUR: OK, well, let me ask you this then, you've just sent a very high level, the highest level representation to Afghanistan, your prime minister. What is your solution for what is most definitely a resurgence of Taliban activity?
MUSHARRAF: No, I don't think there's a resurgence, frankly. If you, this is what is being said in the media. But if you go into the details and maybe ask the Central Command commander, General Abizaid, you will come to a different conclusion. He will tell you something, a different story altogether. So there is a misperception in the media which is not the reality, which is not what officials, those people who are involved in operations, they don't think likewise.
Let me tell you what I know. And I know that those involved know this, also, that the operations on our side of the border, on the Pakistani side, our intelligence network is well in place and it is improving by the day. And our force, a quick reaction, hard hitting force is on ground improving by the day in capability. We have moved against a number of targets and achieved a number of successes. Al Qaeda is on the run. They are hiding. They are leaving the area. Let me repeat, they are leaving that area because of our operations. And this is known by those who are operating on the Afghan side, also, let me tell you this.
So let the media know the reality on the ground. On the one side, also, with the ISAF (ph) reaching outside Kabul and U.S. forces also expanding, the story is different from what is being felt by the media. I think the operations, the atrocities or the terrorist attacks are on the wane and they are tactical in nature. They are not strategic in nature. There is no strategic threat which is coming about, really, of al Qaeda and the Taliban united, uniting to pose a strategic threat in Afghanistan.
AMANPOUR: OK, let's switch quickly to issues of your own domestic politics inside Pakistan.
Two significant attempts on your life over the last month.
Do you know who was responsible for that? And given the incredible amount of opposition, the united alliance against you, the Muslim parties, what are your prospects for political survival?
MUSHARRAF: Well, in the threat to my life, no political party is involved, not a single of the Muslim parties is involved, certainly. But our investigations -- and we have rounded up all the people directly involved -- but the people who are behind that, yes, we are reasonably sure that it is al Qaeda, some operatives. We haven't got to the top of the, identified the person who may have issued the orders, but we know that there are linkages, that maybe the idea came from the al Qaeda.
But on the other side, who has executed it and who is the -- whether there's an organization behind the executors or some individual extremists are involved, that is still to be clarified. I think we have met a lot of successes in unearthing them. That's a very optimistic situation because then we have in the process, we have unearthed people who are involved, who are involved in the other terrorist activities within Pakistan.
So there has been an optimistic outcome of this unfortunate attack.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Musharraf, we're nearly out of time.
There's a lot more to discuss and we want to thank you for all the time that you've given us.
I wanted to ask you one final question that I ask on a humanitarian level, and perhaps in journalistic solidarity. It would mean a lot to the management of CNN if you might perhaps investigate what's happened to a Pakistani journalist who was accompanying two French journalists who were arrested in the Pakistan-Afghanistan border area. And the family and colleagues of the Pakistani journalist have not heard from him, even though the French journalists were released more than a week ago.
I wonder if you know anything about it and you might ask your people to investigate that.
MUSHARRAF: Yes, I will, I will certainly do that. But I hold him in the poorest of opinion, a man contriving with the French journalists and trying to concoct a movie showing Pakistan in bad light. He's the most unpatriotic man, he doesn't deserve any sympathy whatsoever because he was trying to bring harm to my country and he is the most unpatriotic man. They are trying to fabricate a story within Pakistan and purporting it to be Taliban activity from Pakistan in Afghanistan.
I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.
However, now that you have said it, I don't know where he is. I would like to find out where the hell he is.
AMANPOUR: On that note, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us, Mr. President.
We appreciate it.
MUSHARRAF: Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: We go to a break now.
That concludes our interview with the president of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, from Davos, Switzerland.
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