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American Morning

Ricin Scare

Aired February 03, 2004 - 11:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get more now on that ricin scare on Capitol Hill. Senator Bill Frist says that whoever sent the substance likely did so with the intent to harm. As we've been reporting, the white powder was found in Frist's mailroom. Federal authorities say there is no evidence of international terrorism, but Frist says the discovery is disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: As most people know, that in mid-afternoon yesterday, a powder that was ultimately determined to be ricin was found and in my personal office building. And everything was handled in a very appropriate way in terms of the screening tests that have been established. And ultimately, after a series of tests of varying, what are called specificity and sensitivity confirmatory tests, it came back last night around 9:30 that this ricin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Let's talk more about ricin now. Here to give us more on the deadly poison is Jonathan Tucker, a chemical and biological weapons expert at the Monterey Institute for International Studies. We've tracked him down in Washington, D.C.

Good morning once again.

JONATHAN TUCKER, MONTEREY INSTITUTE FOR INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: Good morning, Daryn.

KAGAN: I had so many questions for you last hour, had to hold you over again to this hour.

Remind our viewers, who haven't been with us, exactly what ricin is and why it is so dangerous.

TUCKER: OK. Ricin is a protein toxin, a poison that is extracted from the bean of the castor bean plant. And this is a plant that is grown in very large quantities around the world for the production of castor oil, which is used for industrial purposes. Back in the 19th century, it was used as a laxative in this country, but it hasn't been used for that purpose in many years. But it is used as an industrial lubricant in many parts of the world, and a million tons of castor beans are processed every year for the production of castor oil. What is left over, the byproduct of castor oil production, is about 5 percent ricin by weight. KAGAN: Well, and because it is so easy to get or to make, are you surprised we don't see more of it around the world with deadly intent?

TUCKER: Well, it has been explored by a number of countries as a potential biological warfare agent, but it is just not a very good biological weapon, because it's difficult to deliver, to aerosolize. It has been used on a number of occasions as an assassination weapon.

In 1978, for example, the Bulgarian Secret Service assassinated Georgi Markov in London. He was a Bulgarian dissident, and he was attacked with a pellet containing ricin delivered with an air gun disguised as an umbrella.

There have been a number of groups in the United States, far right groups or patriot groups that have been interested in ricin. And recipes for its production are available on the Internet and in underground publications such as "Silent Death."

KAGAN: Which is rather frightening. What about -- and you touched on this a little bit -- delivery systems? It's hard to turn into an aerosol form.

TUCKER: Right.

KAGAN: Is that what kind of holds it back? It's easy to make, but in terms of if you're trying to reach a lot people, it's difficult to put into a form where you can do that?

TUCKER: That's correct. It can be used to contaminate food, it can be injected as an assassination weapon, or it can be delivered as an aerosol, but that is very difficult to do. So, for that reason, it's primarily of interest to terrorists, who are interested in assassinating individuals or small numbers of people.

KAGAN: Is it also a sensitive substance? I understand that it could break down if it gets too heated.

TUCKER: It would have to be heated up to about 200 degrees for 10 minutes to destroy it.

KAGAN: All right.

TUCKER: So, it is quite stable at room temperature.

KAGAN: And in this situation that we're watching on Capitol Hill, in a mailroom, how dangerous is it?

TUCKER: It's important to point out that unlike anthrax, this is not an infectious agent that will multiply in the host. So, a significantly larger dose is required to cause illness. And also, it is not contagious from person to person. So, one would have to come into direct contact with the material and inhale it.

We don't know the quality of the material, its purity, and whether it was processed to make it more easily airborne, as we saw with the anthrax spores. And those would be important variables.

KAGAN: Yes. And once those tests do come back, if you did have that information, would that give you some clues as to what type of person might have sent this along, if it was an amateur or somebody who had a more sophisticated idea of attacking the U.S. Capitol?

TUCKER: Absolutely. If this was a high-purity preparation in the form of a powder that was extremely fine and readily airborne that could be inhaled into the lungs that would indicate some sophistication on the part of the perpetrator. But this is something that has been produced as a crude preparation by a number of uneducated individuals.

In the case of the Minnesota Patriots Council in 1995, for example, these were carpet cleaners who had some familiarity with solvents and could follow a recipe, but their preparation was extremely crude and unsophisticated.

KAGAN: Jonathan Tucker is a chemical and biological weapons expert at the Monterey Institute for International Studies.

I just have to ask you a personal note. Everything that you study at work all day, does it make it hard to sleep at night? You know some really bad stuff.

TUCKER: Well, I think I've developed a certain clinical distance about this material, but it is troubling.

KAGAN: I think you would have to. But thank you for your expertise today. I appreciate it.

TUCKER: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.







Aired February 3, 2004 - 11:31   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get more now on that ricin scare on Capitol Hill. Senator Bill Frist says that whoever sent the substance likely did so with the intent to harm. As we've been reporting, the white powder was found in Frist's mailroom. Federal authorities say there is no evidence of international terrorism, but Frist says the discovery is disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: As most people know, that in mid-afternoon yesterday, a powder that was ultimately determined to be ricin was found and in my personal office building. And everything was handled in a very appropriate way in terms of the screening tests that have been established. And ultimately, after a series of tests of varying, what are called specificity and sensitivity confirmatory tests, it came back last night around 9:30 that this ricin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Let's talk more about ricin now. Here to give us more on the deadly poison is Jonathan Tucker, a chemical and biological weapons expert at the Monterey Institute for International Studies. We've tracked him down in Washington, D.C.

Good morning once again.

JONATHAN TUCKER, MONTEREY INSTITUTE FOR INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: Good morning, Daryn.

KAGAN: I had so many questions for you last hour, had to hold you over again to this hour.

Remind our viewers, who haven't been with us, exactly what ricin is and why it is so dangerous.

TUCKER: OK. Ricin is a protein toxin, a poison that is extracted from the bean of the castor bean plant. And this is a plant that is grown in very large quantities around the world for the production of castor oil, which is used for industrial purposes. Back in the 19th century, it was used as a laxative in this country, but it hasn't been used for that purpose in many years. But it is used as an industrial lubricant in many parts of the world, and a million tons of castor beans are processed every year for the production of castor oil. What is left over, the byproduct of castor oil production, is about 5 percent ricin by weight. KAGAN: Well, and because it is so easy to get or to make, are you surprised we don't see more of it around the world with deadly intent?

TUCKER: Well, it has been explored by a number of countries as a potential biological warfare agent, but it is just not a very good biological weapon, because it's difficult to deliver, to aerosolize. It has been used on a number of occasions as an assassination weapon.

In 1978, for example, the Bulgarian Secret Service assassinated Georgi Markov in London. He was a Bulgarian dissident, and he was attacked with a pellet containing ricin delivered with an air gun disguised as an umbrella.

There have been a number of groups in the United States, far right groups or patriot groups that have been interested in ricin. And recipes for its production are available on the Internet and in underground publications such as "Silent Death."

KAGAN: Which is rather frightening. What about -- and you touched on this a little bit -- delivery systems? It's hard to turn into an aerosol form.

TUCKER: Right.

KAGAN: Is that what kind of holds it back? It's easy to make, but in terms of if you're trying to reach a lot people, it's difficult to put into a form where you can do that?

TUCKER: That's correct. It can be used to contaminate food, it can be injected as an assassination weapon, or it can be delivered as an aerosol, but that is very difficult to do. So, for that reason, it's primarily of interest to terrorists, who are interested in assassinating individuals or small numbers of people.

KAGAN: Is it also a sensitive substance? I understand that it could break down if it gets too heated.

TUCKER: It would have to be heated up to about 200 degrees for 10 minutes to destroy it.

KAGAN: All right.

TUCKER: So, it is quite stable at room temperature.

KAGAN: And in this situation that we're watching on Capitol Hill, in a mailroom, how dangerous is it?

TUCKER: It's important to point out that unlike anthrax, this is not an infectious agent that will multiply in the host. So, a significantly larger dose is required to cause illness. And also, it is not contagious from person to person. So, one would have to come into direct contact with the material and inhale it.

We don't know the quality of the material, its purity, and whether it was processed to make it more easily airborne, as we saw with the anthrax spores. And those would be important variables.

KAGAN: Yes. And once those tests do come back, if you did have that information, would that give you some clues as to what type of person might have sent this along, if it was an amateur or somebody who had a more sophisticated idea of attacking the U.S. Capitol?

TUCKER: Absolutely. If this was a high-purity preparation in the form of a powder that was extremely fine and readily airborne that could be inhaled into the lungs that would indicate some sophistication on the part of the perpetrator. But this is something that has been produced as a crude preparation by a number of uneducated individuals.

In the case of the Minnesota Patriots Council in 1995, for example, these were carpet cleaners who had some familiarity with solvents and could follow a recipe, but their preparation was extremely crude and unsophisticated.

KAGAN: Jonathan Tucker is a chemical and biological weapons expert at the Monterey Institute for International Studies.

I just have to ask you a personal note. Everything that you study at work all day, does it make it hard to sleep at night? You know some really bad stuff.

TUCKER: Well, I think I've developed a certain clinical distance about this material, but it is troubling.

KAGAN: I think you would have to. But thank you for your expertise today. I appreciate it.

TUCKER: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.