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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Kerry Stays Ahead; Defending Iraq Intelligence; Growing Backlash Over Outsourcing
Aired February 04, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: The race tightens, Kerry with a strong lead. Dean, Edwards and Clark are struggling, but their campaigns stay alive.
"Exporting America," the growing backlash against corporate America's outsourcing of jobs overseas, state lawmakers taking action, Congress getting serious about visa abuses that allow corporations to hire foreign workers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TOM LANTOS (D), CALIFORNIA: The nation today is facing one of the biggest economic crises since the Great Depression.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Defending intelligence on Iraq. Is it defensible? Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says yes. So does CIA Director George Tenet.
And in "Broken Borders" tonight, some say he is the toughest sheriff in the West. And he brings his own brand of law and order to the issue of illegal immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm doing my part for the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Tonight, my guest is Senator Chuck Hagel. We'll talk about his proposal, along with Senator Tom Daschle, to reform our nation's immigration laws.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, February 4. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, Senator John Kerry has taken a commanding lead over a shrinking field of Democratic presidential candidates. Senator Kerry easily one five of seven primary and caucus contests that give him more than 260 delegates of the almost 2,200 needed to win the nomination. Kerry's competitors are racing to cut into his lead.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): Senator John Edwards' victory in South Carolina primary has salvaged his campaign for at least another week. Ignoring the next contest in delegate-rich Michigan and Washington state, the North Carolina senator will focus on the South.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know very well what the priorities are of people here in Tennessee. And they're very similar to the ones that I learned growing up in North Carolina.
DOBBS: Senator Edwards and General Wesley Clark, the apparent but not yet certified winner in Oklahoma, are now both trying to stop Senator Kerry in Tennessee. After failing to place higher than third in any of yesterday's contests, Howard Dean is making what could be his last stand in the North, in Washington state and Michigan, where a total of 204 delegates are at stake this weekend.
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are going to win the Washington caucuses on Saturday.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
DOBBS: Dean, in the latest polls in Michigan, is losing to front-runner Senator Kerry by a 4-1 margin.
As for Senator Kerry, his victories in five states earned him a day off from campaigning and the endorsement of a key, largely female labor organization, the American Federation of Teachers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And Senator Kerry heads to Michigan tomorrow night.
As for the overall delegate count, Howard Dean is in second place now. 121. John Edwards has 107.
An issue that is rapidly gaining momentum on the campaign trail is an issue that we have reported upon extensively on this show for more than a year now, exporting America, the hemorrhaging of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. But lawmakers at the state level have grown tired of waiting for the federal government to take action. State legislatures across the country are fighting tonight to ban the exporting of state government jobs to cheap foreign labor market.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In Saint Paul, it's the Minnesota Jobs Protection Act, in Madison, Wisconsin, the American Jobs Act. In Washington, one state rep says he's fighting an economic virus. The issue, backlash against the exporting of government contract jobs.
In Minnesota, if you have questions about food stamps, it's now very likely someone in India will take your call. Enter the Minnesota Jobs Protection Act, which would require that all work on state contracts be done by U.S. citizens.
THOMAS HUNTLEY (D), MINNESOTA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: I started out just thinking it was wrong to use our taxpayer dollars to hire people in New Delhi, when we're firing them in New Ulm, Minnesota, but I've got more feedback on this legislation than anything I've done in the past.
VILES: In Washington state, a bill would require all work on state contracts be done in the United States. In Colorado, two bills pending, including a real tough one, no state contracts for companies that export 100 or more jobs.
State Senator Deanna Hanna says she has seen too many people hurt by outsourcing.
DEANNA HANNA (D), COLORADO STATE SENATOR: I think that somehow in the spiral that is the path that we are following, outsourcing all these jobs, the real people who live in my community and in your community and all the other communities are left in the dust.
VILES: Indiana, the state Senate has passed a bill requiring work on state contracts be done inside the United States. And New Jersey, it's round two for a similar bill that died last year.
(on camera): Clearly, there is some momentum in this coast-to- coast backlash. But the powerful corporate lobbies are undefeated on this issue. No state has ever banned the practice of using taxpayer money to pay for overseas labor.
Peter Viles, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: On Capitol Hill today, emotion turned to outrage as members of the House International Relations Committee heard testimony from Americans who have lost their jobs to foreigners, in this case, foreigners who hold a controversial form of work visa.
Congress has for months now been considering legislation that would drastically cut the number of foreign workers that large corporations can bring into this country. So far, none of those bills has come to a vote.
Bill Tucker reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. jobs leaving America were the focus on Capitol Hill.
LANTOS: One of the most critical economic problems facing U.S. foreign policy, the wholesale export of American jobs by corporations that are putting profits above people and above our national interests.
TUCKER: The committee hearing from tech workers who lost their jobs to L-1 visa holders, visas which were originally meant for a company to be able to transfer workers from their overseas operations on a temporary basis to familiarize them with the way the company works.
PAT FLUNO, COMPUTER PROGRAMMER: My job still exists. So my skill is still required, all right? It still exists, but it is being filled by a visa holder. And that visa holder does the work for one- third the price.
TUCKER: And the crowded hearing room seemed to fuel open hostility. And the industry came under sharp questioning.
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CALIFORNIA: Who am I supposed to believe, the unemployed constituent of mine who is coming in saying, I can't get a job and I have these skills, or am I suppose to believe industry, who is coming in and saying, we can't find anybody to do the work?
TUCKER: And in the middle of discussions about ways to fix the L-1 visa program, which has no limit on numbers that can be issued or on salary requirements, the industry spokesman warned of possible retribution, which sparked outrage.
REP. EARL BLUMENAUER (D), OREGON: If you are going to buy the line that somehow putting reasonable regulations like this is tantamount to a trade war, then I think that you're likely to find this Congress doing things that really will be a trade war, if we can't take simple, commonsense steps.
TUCKER: Still, the Information Technology Association of America, of which Time Warner is a member, insisted that the L-1 visa program is fundamentally sound. He'll get another day to make his point.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: And, Lou, there wasn't an empty chair in the audience today. And while the workers are encouraged by the increased attention from the public, they're less sure that Congress will find the will to act Lou.
DOBBS: Judging by the reaction in that hearing room, though, today, Bill, it looked as though Congress is focusing sharply on the issue. And is there a sense in that room or amongst those you have talked with that they are ready to take action?
TUCKER: There is a growing awareness of the problem and a greater sensitivity on the part of elected officials. It always helps that it's an election year, Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much -- Bill Tucker from Washington.
The economy is obviously in recovery, but as almost 10 million out-of-work Americans can now attest, job growth has not been part of this recovery. Economists blame a boom in worker productivity for the lack of new job creation. In the second half of 2003, productivity surged 9 percent. And the reason for that high productivity rate may be the high number of American jobs that have been exported overseas.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The higher U.S. productivity, the more jobs created in the United States, that used to be conventional wisdom. But not so fast, says the chairman of the House Small Business Committee. It's not technology, but offshore outsourcing which is fueling productivity.
REP. DON MANZULLO (R), ILLINOIS: Classically, an increase in productivity led eventually to an increase in jobs in the economic cycle. Today, it doesn't.
SYLVESTER: Let's say last year it used to take 10 American workers to make 1,000 widgets. But if a company decides to buy 20 percent of its widget parts from China, it would only need eight U.S. workers. On paper, it would look like a gain in U.S. productivity.
Current U.S. productivity figures do not take into account the offshoring effects. Labor unions say the trend is killing the American middle-class worker, from factory workers to engineers. Small American businesses are also being squeezed.
THEA LEE, AFL-CIO: They're back here in the United States trying to do what they have always done, produce goods with American workers and support their communities. And -- but we have trade policies and tax policies that are putting them at a disadvantage.
SYLVESTER: But not everyone agrees. The Manufacturers Alliance, an industry group for CEOs, argues, the impact of outsourcing is limited.
THOMAS DUESTERBERG, MANUFACTURERS ALLIANCE: Our study shows that the impact of outsourcing on productivity is fairly limited, in fact, much less than 10 percent.
SYLVESTER: But even the Manufacturers Alliance agrees that who gains from the offshoring productivity boost is not necessarily the American worker.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Congressman Manzullo says CEOs need to focus not just on the next earnings statement, but on the long-term implications. If the offshoring trend continues, he says there will be fewer Americans left who can afford to buy their products -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much -- Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.
Still ahead here, my next guest, the governor of the state of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm. We'll be talking about what she is doing to help her state's residents to keep their jobs. I'll also be talking with Senator Chuck Hagel about his proposal, in conjunction with Senator Tom Daschle, to reform the nation's immigration laws.
As well, the most damaging testimony so far today against Martha Stewart. We'll have a live report from the courthouse in New York City.
Also ahead tonight, the man who calls himself America's toughest sheriff. And he has a unique way of dealing with illegal aliens. We'll have that special report.
And defending the intelligence on Iraq. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, CIA Director George Tenet lead the administration's counterattack. I'll be joined by former CIA Director James Woolsey.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My first guest tonight is among those at the forefront of the battle to keep the jobs of hardworking Americans in this country. She's the governor of the state of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm. The governor was elected in 2002. She is the first female governor in the state's 166-year history. Governor Granholm joins us tonight from East Lansing, Michigan.
Good to have you with us.
GOV. JENNIFER GRANHOLM (D), MICHIGAN: Thank you.
DOBBS: The battle to keep jobs in this country, what have you been able to do that's effective in stopping the exporting of these American jobs?
GRANHOLM: Yes, I mean, as a governor, it's difficult to impact international trade policy.
We hear all the time that the states have got to be a low-cost environment. And we have done everything we possibly can to achieve that. We've tried to clear out regulatory hurdles, tried to create one-stop shops for permitting, reduce permitting time. We have worked with the unions to achieve low-cost -- lower-cost labor.
I'll give you an example of this, Lou, is in Greenville, Michigan, a couple weeks ago, a firm called Electrolux, which just decided to move to Mexico, had 2,700 jobs at stake in a town of 8,000 people. And we went to them and offered them zero taxes for 20 years, an entirely new plant, huge labor concessions to the tune of $32 million a year. And it was not enough to compete with a country paying $1.57 an hour.
How do we as governors and as an entire country compete with companies that are paying a fraction of our minimum wage? It is a very difficult question. And this is why, in this election year, I think it's very important to pose the question on both sides of the aisle to these candidates and say, what are you going to do to stand up to make this playing field for our American businesses and jobs?
DOBBS: Well, obviously, Governor, it's becoming increasingly an important issue in this campaign. It has not moved to the forefront, I think you and I would agree.
But at least Senator John Kerry, whom I know you support in the race for the Democratic Party nomination, General Clark, General Wesley Clark, Senator John Edwards, and certainly Dennis Kucinich have all focused on these issues, at least at the margin.
What do you think, from your perspective in the state of Michigan, where you have lost about 20 percent of the manufacturing jobs over the course of, what, the last three to four years...
GRANHOLM: Three years.
DOBBS: What do you think can be done?
GRANHOLM: We have lost about 300,000 jobs. And 170,000 of them are in the manufacturing sector.
What we need to do is several things. In fact, I pulled together labor and business manufacturers and we came up with a consensus agenda. Clearly, we've got to make sure that we go after those international trade policies that the United States has been lax on, for example, allowing the manipulation of currency, whether it's in China or Japan, for example, protecting our companies intellectual property when they do trade abroad, for example, going after the nontariff trade barriers that have been placed up by other countries.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Governor, you just said the dirty word. You said tariff. You are going to be criticized as a dirty protectionist, a retrograde.
(CROSSTALK)
GRANHOLM: No, no, what I said was, we should go after other countries who are placing nontariff barriers in the way of our exports.
So I'm not interested in being a protectionist, but I am interested in leveling this playing field. And one of the ways we have to do this is to sign trade agreements that have core labor and environmental standards and enforceable protections in them. I think, frankly, any member of Congress that votes in favor of another trade agreement that does not level the playing field, that does not require core and enforceable environmental and labor standards is really in jeopardy of losing their election.
This has become such a huge issue in Michigan and in other manufacturing states, that this election, this presidential election, I hope, and with the help of shows like yours, we will really bring it to the forefront.
DOBBS: Oh, Governor, there are no shows like ours. There are no states like Michigan. The fact is...
GRANHOLM: That's true.
(LAUGHTER)
GRANHOLM: Excellent show and an excellent state.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Governor, the fact is that, this weekend, you have a primary, an important primary, what, 128 delegates at stake.
GRANHOLM: Yes.
DOBBS: And I know you support John Kerry. Give us your best sense as to how important this issue will be in determining the outcome of that primary election?
GRANHOLM: Oh, this is the No. 1 issue in our state. And it's not the economy, stupid. It's the jobs, stupid.
And as you alluded to in the segment prior to this, this has not been a jobless recovery. It's been a job-loss recovery in Michigan. And that is not acceptable. This is why this is the No. 1 issue here. And for us, we need a president who is going to stand up for Michigan jobs and one that is likely to be elected, a candidate that is likely to be elected.
John Kerry has a very good manufacturing platform. And he will help the automotive industry as well, which, of course, is our main industry.
DOBBS: I understand. And I think it's important that we point out, so does General Wesley Clark, Senator John Edwards, and Dennis Kucinich.
GRANHOLM: Yes.
There's a number of good platforms. You are right. And the Democrats, many of them, have very good manufacturing platforms. John Kerry just happens to have the one that is the longest. I'm aware that he has had his longer than any of the others and a specific one relative to autos.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Governor, we thank you very much for being with us here tonight. Come back soon.
GRANHOLM: Thank you. You bet.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: How confident are you that either political party will work effectively in your best interest on this issue, very, somewhat, a little, or not at all? Cast your vote, please, at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have results for you later in the broadcast. Coming up next, explosive testimony today from the government's star witness in the trial of Martha Stewart. We'll have a live report for you from Lower Manhattan.
And two highly anticipated rulings on gay marriage in this country -- those stories and a great deal more just ahead.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Explosive testimony today in the trial of Martha Stewart, new testimony that directly contradicts what Stewart and her co- defendant in the case, Peter Bacanovic, have told government investigators.
Mary Snow is at the federal courthouse in Lower Manhattan tonight with the very latest for us -- Mary.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it was the most damaging testimony yet against Martha Stewart and Peter Bacanovic, her former stockbroker.
The government's star witness, Doug Faneuil, testified what he says was a cover-up. The former stock broker's assistant handled Martha Stewart's trade of ImClone stock in late December of 2001. And he testified today that he passed along a tip that ImClone founder Sam Waksal was trying to dump his shares.
He testified about a phone conversation he had with Stewart on December 27, 2001, in which he quotes her as calling up the office, saying, "What is going on with Sam?" Faneuil said he didn't have any company news, but that Peter, her broker, thought, "You might want to act on information that Sam Waksal is trying to sell all of his shares." She asks, "All of his shares?"'
He then went on the tell him the price of the stock. She instructed him to sell. Faneuil claims in testimony that Bacanovic subsequently told him that Stewart sold her shares as part of a tax loss selling plan that they had both agreed to. He then claims that Bacanovic said it was part of a stop-loss order.
And then Bacanovic said, at one point, he tried to have a conversation with his former boss and he said he wanted to talk about what happened with Martha Stewart, saying: "I was there. I know what happened." He testified that Peter Bacanovic put his hand on Doug Faneuil's shoulder saying, "With all due respect, no, you don't."
Now, Martha Stewart has maintained all along that she had a preexisting agreement to sell ImClone once it fell below $60 a share. And now defense attorneys have their crack at questioning Doug Faneuil. Today, they began questioning him and chipping away at his credibility, asking him about his admission of drug use, including pot and ecstasy -- Lou.
DOBBS: Mary, thank you very much -- Mary Snow reporting from the federal courthouse in Lower Manhattan.
The Massachusetts Supreme Court today paved the way for the nation's first same-sex marriages. The high court told lawmakers they must give gay couples marriages rights that are equal to those of other married couples. Next week, the state's constitutional convention will consider an amendment that would legally define marriage as a union between one man and one woman.
And, separately in Ohio, a bill there to ban gay marriages is headed to the governor's desk. Lawmakers in Ohio approved the Defense of Marriage Act, the 38th state to pass such law.
Coming up next, ricin in the Senate. Tonight, it is a job for the U.S. Marine Corps. We'll have that story for you.
CIA Director George Tenet is set to defend his agency against criticism of the intelligence gathered before the war in Iraq -- that defense tomorrow morning. Tonight, I'll be joined by one of his predecessors, James Woolsey.
And you can call it frontier justice, perhaps. In the old Southwest, one Arizona sheriff has a bold new plan to make illegal aliens earn their way.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The chief of the U.S. Capitol Police, Terrance Gainer, today said investigators have discovered no clues about the terrorist who sent the poison ricin to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. U.S. Marines have joined that investigation. They joined today. They are from a specialized unit that deals with chemical and biological incidents. No Senate staff member has reported any symptoms from the ricin.
Senator Frist today said the office buildings closed by the attack will begin to reopen tomorrow. Meanwhile, the White House defended its decision not to tell the public about a ricin attack in November.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We obviously take public health risks very seriously. And if there is information that needs to be shared, we share it appropriately. I think you see that by what we have done to act on other threats that we face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Turning to Capitol Hill today, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld there to say it is too early to say whether Iraq did or did not possess weapons of mass destruction. Secretary Rumsfeld's remarks were his first public comments on the subject since David Kay said Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction before the war.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In back-to-back appearances before the House and Senate armed services committees. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld refused to concede any intelligence failure in the pre-war assessment Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The impression that has and is being created of broad intelligence failures can be dispelled.
MCINTYRE: Rumsfeld dismissed the widely held theory that Iraq had no chemical or biological weapons before the war as, quote, "possible but not likely. And he insisted that Saddam Hussein was to blame for the U.S. intelligence consensus Iraq was hiding WMDs.
RUMSFELD: Saddam Hussein's behavior during that period reinforced that conclusion. He did not behave like someone who was disarming and wanted to prove he was doing so.
MCINTYRE: Democrats grilled Rumsfeld over his assertion made ten days into the war that the Pentagon knew the location of Iraq's unconventional weapons. They were stashed around Baghdad and Tikrit where U.S. forces had not yet reached.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY, (D) MASSACHUSETTS: Then you say in March '03 we know where they are. We know where they are. That is an extraordinary leap and that extraordinary leap was wrong.
MCINTYRE: Rumsfeld said he was referring to suspected WMD sites not the weapons themselves. It was one of the few times during his grilling Rumsfeld grudgingly conceded he might have been wrong.
RUMSFELD: And you are quite right, shorthand we know where they are, probably turned out to be not exactly what one would have preferred in retrospect.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: But Rumsfeld insisted the jury is still out about whether the prewar intelligence was wrong. He noted that Saddam Hussein was found after ten months of searching, in a hole which he said would have been big enough to hold a fairly good stockpile of deadly germs or gas. He said unlike Saddam Hussein, if those things were buried in such a hole, they could stay there forever without having to come out -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
CIA director George Tenet tomorrow will forcefully depend his agency's prewar judgments about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Tenet is also expected to say intelligence that is not a crystal ball when he delivers his speech at Georgetown University. National security correspondent, David Ensor, has the report -- David. DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, for Tenet the speech will be a chance to respond to criticism from David Kay, his former weapons inspector in Iraq, who says that U.S. intelligence given to the president before the war about WMD was wrong. According to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, Tenet may also make a little news. He may reveal a U.S. intelligence success story or two that have been unknown until now, at least in public.
Tenet will also respond to Kay's statements that the CIA was wrong, had underestimated how advanced Libya and Iran's nuclear programs were. Officials say Libya decided to give up its program in part after hearing how much the CIA already knew about it.
This hastily arranged speech is an unusual move for the director of central intelligence. Tenet usually keep as pretty low profile, but CIA officials decide they needed to respond to Kay and to Democratic presidential candidates who have been criticizing in the last week or so before it becomes the conventional wisdom that U.S. intelligence got nothing right in Iraq.
DOBBS: David, thank you. David Ensor, national security correspondent.
Joining me now is one of George Tenet's predecessor as the head of the CIA, former CIA director James Woolsey. Good to have you with us.
JAMES WOOLSEY, FRM. DIR. CIA: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: It appears that George Tenet has a very large task in front of him tomorrow, given the fact that there have been no weapons of mass destruction found. In defending himself, his agency and the intelligence community, how do you think he will go about it?
WOOLSEY: I hope he uses some numbers. And because the apparent confusion on this -- the confusion between weapons and agent, such as, let's say the anthrax that would go in a biological weapon, and adjectives like large and small and so on. No one can get this sorted out unless you put some numbers to it.
We understood from what Saddam himself admitted, that he had made 8, 500 liters of anthrax. And Colin Powell, following George Tenets national intelligence estimate in early 2003 said, U.S. intelligence thought it might be as much as 25,000 liters. Now those sound like big numbers, but that's about 8.5 tons or 25 tons which is less than half a tractor trailer load or tractor trailer load and a bit.
And that is in liquid, if you take the liquid out of the Anthrax and just leave the powder of the sort we all were worried about two years ago here in Washington, the entire anthrax stockpile of agent that would go into shells or bombs was something between four and 12 suitcases worth.
So I think George needs to educate people and I hope he does. I believe he will in some ways. About what is actually involved here. We're not talking about massive piles of ordinance at all. DOBBS: I understand the importance of the scale, the size, large and small of the agents, but we've also watched as a migration of the terminology, the definition of is, if you will be, which is popular on both sides of the aisle in Washington, as you know. The expression was very clear, weapons of mass destruction. Not weapons of mass destruction programs. Not -- it was a very definitive statement by the CIA, with secretary of state Colin Powell standing straight forward pointing about mobile laboratories talking about location.
Why in the world, with all of the experience of the CIA, in it's failure and successes, would there not be simply the statement that we were wrong, that we did our best, we were wrong. Because at this point, it's wrong.
WOOLSEY: Well, it's wrong in so far as what has been found so far. But this country is the size of California.
DOBBS: No, no, Jim I don't mean that. I don't mean to suggest that anyone is wrong about the fact that perhaps there will be found some weapon of mass destruction. I wouldn't rule out that possibility. But the fact is they have not been found.
WOOLSEY: That's true.
DOBBS: We were led to believe there was a high order of specificity, not only about the existence of the weapons of mass destruction, but about their location. We had satellite pictures. We had very specific emphatic statements being made by officials in Washington.
WOOLSEY: A lot of the material that came out about specificity, individual units, having had weapons, agent in them, moved to them and so forth, came in rather late. And both David Kay and some earlier press reports have suggested even a number of Iraqi generals were deceived and thought, for example, that although they didn't have chemical weapons in their unit, the units on each of their flanks did.
I think that's part of the explanation for how things could have been wrong, again, assuming they are. Which is that there was, according to David Kay again, a deception program by the Iraqi government and, indeed, in one of David's formulations he suggested Saddam Hussein himself may have been deceived by his own scientists who were pocketing the money and not producing weapons.
So, we have what David Kay accurately call as vortex of corruption and fraud here, and it's sort of a twilight zone of intelligence. There's a lot of things that we don't know yet and maybe George will tomorrow cast some light on it.
DOBBS: Well, we look forward to hearing what he has to say and we are always glad to hear what you have to say. Thank you for being here.
Coming up next, an Arizona sheriff known for somewhat unorthodox methods in dealing with law enforcement, with prisoners. He is getting tough on illegal aliens and giving them exactly what they want, at least the opportunity for it.
We'll also be talking with Senator Chuck Hagel about his proposed legislation to reform our nation's immigration nightmare.
And our talk with a panel of leading political journalists as this presidential campaign moves ahead, John Kerry surging to the top, and tonight, one Democrat no longer in the race. We'll be right back. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens stream into this country each year placing strains, among other things, on law enforcement agencies all across the country. In one county in Arizona, 10 percent of the prison population is now made up of illegal aliens but the sheriff there has a plan to help some criminal aliens repay their debt to this society, to this country. Casey Wian reports from Phoenix, Arizona.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Joe Arpaio likes to be known as America's toughest sheriff. He's made a name for himself by housing Maricopa county, Arizona's criminals in tents, dressing them in pink underwear and jailbird stripes. Even putting women in chain gangs. Now Arpaio is getting tough on the illegal aliens who make up nearly 10 percent of his jail population. He is asking them to register with the U.S. selective service in case the military draft ever returns.
SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY: If you ask anybody, they do not know that illegals must also sign up. They are shocked when I tell them that. It's in the law. It says illegal immigrants, aliens, must also sign up. I'm just enforcing the law.
WIAN: It's true, all males between the ages of 18 and 26 must sign a draft card even if they don't have a green card. Failure to comply can result in five years in prison and a $250,000 fine. So far, Arpaio has registered 500 illegal aliens and 1,200 other inmates. He says only about 100 illegals have refused. He'll submit their names to Selective Service.
Sheriff Arpaio's program could actually help jailed illegal aliens stay in the United States. If the draft ever resumes and they end up joining the military, it could help them become U.S. citizens.
That's why Francisco Dominguez (ph), an illegal alien serving eight months for fighting and hit-and-run driving singed up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): By going into the draft and Selective Services that would benefit him by coming, you know, maybe becoming a citizen. This country offers a lot. If you're a citizen it offers more.
ARPAIO: My theory is if you can fight for your country, if that day ever comes, fight for your country then the least we can do is make them United States citizens.
WIAN: For now, Arpaio's program appears largely symbolic since there are no plans to reinstate the draft. However with reserve units facing longer and more frequent deployments, it's not out of the question. Casey Wian, CNN, Phoenix, Arizona.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next, I'll be talking with Senator Chuck Hagel about his proposed legislation to reform our nation's immigration laws. They are badly in need of it. And I'll be talking about the results of these primaries with two leading political journalists as the race for the Democratic presidential nomination heightens. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest is the co-sponsor of a bill that would pave the way for millions of illegal aliens to become citizens of the United States. Senator Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska, joins me now from Washington D.C. Good to have you with us, Senator.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: This bipartisan proposal with the Senator Tom Daschle goes farther than any other piece of legislation or proposal that I'm aware of for legislation border security, not rewarding illegal aliens for having broken the law, how do you deal with those two specific issues, first, because that's where the greatest opposition will come from?
HAGEL: Well, first of all, I think it's important for Americans to understand, currently, we have a system that does not work. It's contradictory, it's inconsistent, and we know or at least based on our best estimates, there are eight to ten to 12 million illegal immigrants in the country now. Things are not getting better. We can't continue to defer the problem.
So what Senator Daschle and I have proposed and it's very consistent with President Bush's principles that he laid down, was to start dealing with this. We deal with it on the basis of first of all, let's get a system that works. It's a comprehensive system. Let's get a system that deals with national security. That secures the border. Let's get a system that stops the black marketing of labor, that keeps people down, hurts our American workers.
We do that principally by trying to incentivise (ph) those illegals in the country today, by bringing them up and out of the closet. Giving them some incentive to get into the system. There are six major criteria that we go through that they would have to follow in order to do that. We would increase the visas so that we could reunite families. We think that's important. We would put further and more resources into securing our border. And a number of obviously details that go with that. That's the general dynamic and concept of the bill.
DOBBS: You talk about a proficiency in English. Does that mean that anyone would be required to speak clearly, serviceably, the English language.
HAGEL: Lou, we think that's fundamental. That's one of the six criteria we put forward in order to get the illegals into a system where they can start to move toward a legal status. They must have some sense of English because they can't communicate otherwise. And so that is a big part of it.
DOBBS: And obviously, the registration of illegal aliens in this country to begin this process, I've talked with a number of people who are amongst those, experts on immigration. They think it's going to be very difficult to achieve. Do you think this bill, which I must say, Senator, in my judgment is the most rational, humane, and most effective proposal I have seen, has a chance of getting through as law?
HAGEL: Probably not this year, Lou, because this is going to be a raw partisan year. But I think like everything in this business, you must first lay down a base of education, of knowledge, of comprehension and then put something positive forward. That's what Senator Daschle and I have done in a bipartisan way. So I'm hopeful we're going to make a lot of progress this year and hopefully we could enact something next year.
DOBBS: I hope you'll return and we'll talk more about this as the year -- in this partisan year goes forward. Senator Chuck Hagel, thanks for being with us.
Our thought tonight is on this country's immigration policy. "We have the most generous immigration policy but what is the concerns when illegal immigrants come and undermine a variety of the systems that work in order to make our society function." Those are the words of former secretary of state Madeleine Albright.
A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question, "how confident are you that either political party will work effectively in your best interest on any number of issues? Very, somewhat, little, or not at all." Cast your vote, please, at CNN.com/lou. We'll have the results for you coming right up.
On Wall Street today, stock prices tumbled. The Dow down 34 points. The Nasdaq down 52. The S&P down 9.5. Christine Romans is here with "The Market" and Christine, this is starting to look like it might be a correction.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A long overdue correction, Lou. The Nasdaq is down 6 percent, just about a week and a half some of the real high flyers from last year are in full fledged correction mode. Cisco off 18 percent. Lucent off about 16 percent. Lou, many of the China stocks have shaved a third off of their event rallies. As we discussed here, China becoming the new story on Wall Street and it looks like that bubble may be bursting. The hottest Chinese IPO, China Life, has a $600 million accounting skeleton in its closet. China state audit office found a myriad of accounting errors of the predecessor company of China Life and that stock tumbled today along with most of the other formerly hot China stocks.
DOBBS: That's very impressive. China is really catching up...
ROMANS: A big selloff for all of those. It is interesting, too, many speculators hungry for China (UNINTELLIGIBLE) have ignored concerns about transparency in Chinese companies and...
DOBBS: It is a communist country, isn't it?
ROMANS: It is.
DOBBS: I thought so.
ROMANS: Some management issues as well. Seems like the old sort of communist management ways in some of these newly public companies.
Now, as capital goes to China from investors, jobs are going there through cheap foreign labor. Fund manager Bill Gross worries that jobs creation will stay in China and India and Latin America and hurt the U.S. economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL GROSS, PIMCO: If you get a domestic slowdown on top of an outsourcing, then not only do you have low job growth, but perhaps negative and higher unemployment for sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: For sure. And Lou, I keep hearing the same analogy, that this economy is like a three-legged stool. The fourth leg is jobs, and it hasn't come yet. Wobbling. At some point, it could tip.
DOBBS: And for the middle class in this country, that is the foundation, indeed.
ROMANS: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Christine, thanks. Christine Romans.
Well, coming up next, it's still a race for the Democratic presidential nomination, but John Kerry is looking stronger than ever. We'll talk about the race for the White House. We'll talk with Ron Brownstein of "Los Angeles Times," Tom DeFrank of "The New York Daily News."
But first, updating our list of companies confirmed to be exporting America. These are the U.S. companies sending American jobs overseas, or choosing to employ cheap foreign labor instead of American workers. Our additions to the 250 companies we have already confirmed include tonight -- SMC Networks, Tellabs and Werner.
For the complete list of those companies confirmed to be exporting America, please log on to cnn.com/lou. I understand that a number of you had a problem with that early this morning. It has been fixed. I am told the hyperlinks are all working, cnn.com/lou. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results now of our poll. Ten percent of you say you are very confident that either political party will work effectively in your best interest. Twenty-two percent are somewhat confident. Nineteen percent a little; 48 percent not at all.
Returning to the top story of the day, the growing lead of Senator John Kerry in the Democratic presidential contest. I'm joined now by two of the country's leading political journalist, Ron Brownstein, national political correspondent for "Los Angeles Times," Tom DeFrank, Washington bureau chief, "New York Daily News." Both joining us tonight from Washington. Gentlemen, good to have you with us.
As we look at these delegate numbers now, it's very early in the contest, obviously. Is there any sense that this thing is sewed up by John Kerry, Tom?
TOM DEFRANK, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Well, I don't think it's sewed up yet. But politics is a momentum game, and Howard Dean is zero in nine. Wesley Clark is one in eight. It's just hard to see how Kerry stumbles. I mean, you get the feeling that Kerry has been told by somebody, it's time not to make mistakes, Senator. If you don't make mistakes, you're going to be fine, and at the moment he doesn't seem to be making mistakes.
DOBBS: Ron, I hear Tom talking about it's a momentum game. We have General Clark's son complaining about the media not dealing with issues, focusing on the horse race, the momentum. How much justification is there for what General Clark's son complained about?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, look, momentum, as Tom said, is as important as it has ever been in this race. If you look at polls in states like Arizona and South Carolina, where Edwards -- I'm sorry, where Kerry ran well or won, he was at 3, 5, percent in early January 7 percent in Michigan. He's not at 56 percent. So clearly momentum has had a big impact on this.
I don't think it's entirely fair, though, to say that the press has been ignoring issues. I think it's more accurate to say that the Democratic candidates, with the exception of Howard Dean on Iraq, have failed to find ways to differentiate themselves on almost all of the issues that are before the electorate. You don't really see a lot of voters saying, I'm for John Kerry over John Edwards or vice versa, because of their health care plans. It's really been about broader profile characteristics -- experience, electability, that kind of thing.
DOBBS: And yet issues are what define where this country is headed. We just heard Governor Granholm on this broadcast, Tom, say that in her state it's all, as she put it, it's the jobs, stupid. Is that resonating, as you take the pulse of the country in this primary season?
DEFRANK: Well, I think it's beginning to resonate, Lou, especially in places like Ohio. For instance, Ohio should be a slam dunk Republican state. It's not. It's the layer of the Taft family, the Taft dynasty, and President Bush has got some problem there, especially since Ohio is a place where lots of jobs have disappeared overseas and have not come back.
So I don't think the loss of jobs is a big deal now, but it is starting to grow as an issue. And I think unless those jobs start coming back soon, it's going to be a significant problem for the president.
BROWNSTEIN: Lou, can I just jump in?
DOBBS: Sure.
BROWNSTEIN: It is clearly going to be a big issue in the general election, between any Democrat and Bush. The issue right now is how much of an issue is it between, or among the Democrats themselves? And as I said, I don't think they really found a way to differentiate themselves that much on the issue yet.
That may be changing. I mean, John Edwards is moving into a sort of Dick Gephardt lane increasingly in the race, criticizing the North American Free Trade Agreement, criticizing John Kerry as a free trader. Also scoring points with blue-collar voters around a greater sense of empathy. There is an argument, there is a way he can run this race. It's apparent in the exit polls last night, he's a good campaigner. The question is whether he really has enough time to put together this argument, enough money, at a moment in the race where the momentum is clearly with John Kerry.
DOBBS: John Kerry with the momentum, Tom, Dean reports that he's struggling with money. How much money does Edwards have, Wes Clark, he spent a fortune on these -- six, seven states as you reported here last night, Ron. How long can they carry the contest?
DEFRANK: I don't think they can -- either one of them can stay too much longer, especially Dean. Kerry can stay in for a while, and so can Clark. You know, Dean, whoever thought that we'd be saying at this point from momentum to no-mentum in 14 short days, as a Republican analyst said the other day. I mean, I think Dean is gone. He just hadn't figured it out yet. Or maybe he has.
BROWNSTEIN: Howard Dean may go on to a dubious achievement. Real quick, not since 1980 has a candidate raised the most money in the year before failed to win his party's nomination, and Howard Dean's the first in 25 years to wear that collar.
DOBBS: Well, the race continues. We move on to Michigan and to the state of Washington this weekend. Ron Brownstein and Tom DeFrank, we thank you both for being with us here.
That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Tomorrow night, we'll be joined by Jim Tillman (ph). He is an American entrepreneur. It's his business that's failing because of foreign competition and unfair trade policies. We're going to the source. And we'll be joined by the CEO of a company that helps other companies to send work to cheap foreign labor markets. Both signs of a troubling issue for this economy and for the nation. We hope you'll join us tomorrow night.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
END
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Backlash Over Outsourcing>
Aired February 4, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: The race tightens, Kerry with a strong lead. Dean, Edwards and Clark are struggling, but their campaigns stay alive.
"Exporting America," the growing backlash against corporate America's outsourcing of jobs overseas, state lawmakers taking action, Congress getting serious about visa abuses that allow corporations to hire foreign workers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TOM LANTOS (D), CALIFORNIA: The nation today is facing one of the biggest economic crises since the Great Depression.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Defending intelligence on Iraq. Is it defensible? Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says yes. So does CIA Director George Tenet.
And in "Broken Borders" tonight, some say he is the toughest sheriff in the West. And he brings his own brand of law and order to the issue of illegal immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm doing my part for the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Tonight, my guest is Senator Chuck Hagel. We'll talk about his proposal, along with Senator Tom Daschle, to reform our nation's immigration laws.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, February 4. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, Senator John Kerry has taken a commanding lead over a shrinking field of Democratic presidential candidates. Senator Kerry easily one five of seven primary and caucus contests that give him more than 260 delegates of the almost 2,200 needed to win the nomination. Kerry's competitors are racing to cut into his lead.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): Senator John Edwards' victory in South Carolina primary has salvaged his campaign for at least another week. Ignoring the next contest in delegate-rich Michigan and Washington state, the North Carolina senator will focus on the South.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know very well what the priorities are of people here in Tennessee. And they're very similar to the ones that I learned growing up in North Carolina.
DOBBS: Senator Edwards and General Wesley Clark, the apparent but not yet certified winner in Oklahoma, are now both trying to stop Senator Kerry in Tennessee. After failing to place higher than third in any of yesterday's contests, Howard Dean is making what could be his last stand in the North, in Washington state and Michigan, where a total of 204 delegates are at stake this weekend.
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are going to win the Washington caucuses on Saturday.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
DOBBS: Dean, in the latest polls in Michigan, is losing to front-runner Senator Kerry by a 4-1 margin.
As for Senator Kerry, his victories in five states earned him a day off from campaigning and the endorsement of a key, largely female labor organization, the American Federation of Teachers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And Senator Kerry heads to Michigan tomorrow night.
As for the overall delegate count, Howard Dean is in second place now. 121. John Edwards has 107.
An issue that is rapidly gaining momentum on the campaign trail is an issue that we have reported upon extensively on this show for more than a year now, exporting America, the hemorrhaging of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. But lawmakers at the state level have grown tired of waiting for the federal government to take action. State legislatures across the country are fighting tonight to ban the exporting of state government jobs to cheap foreign labor market.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In Saint Paul, it's the Minnesota Jobs Protection Act, in Madison, Wisconsin, the American Jobs Act. In Washington, one state rep says he's fighting an economic virus. The issue, backlash against the exporting of government contract jobs.
In Minnesota, if you have questions about food stamps, it's now very likely someone in India will take your call. Enter the Minnesota Jobs Protection Act, which would require that all work on state contracts be done by U.S. citizens.
THOMAS HUNTLEY (D), MINNESOTA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: I started out just thinking it was wrong to use our taxpayer dollars to hire people in New Delhi, when we're firing them in New Ulm, Minnesota, but I've got more feedback on this legislation than anything I've done in the past.
VILES: In Washington state, a bill would require all work on state contracts be done in the United States. In Colorado, two bills pending, including a real tough one, no state contracts for companies that export 100 or more jobs.
State Senator Deanna Hanna says she has seen too many people hurt by outsourcing.
DEANNA HANNA (D), COLORADO STATE SENATOR: I think that somehow in the spiral that is the path that we are following, outsourcing all these jobs, the real people who live in my community and in your community and all the other communities are left in the dust.
VILES: Indiana, the state Senate has passed a bill requiring work on state contracts be done inside the United States. And New Jersey, it's round two for a similar bill that died last year.
(on camera): Clearly, there is some momentum in this coast-to- coast backlash. But the powerful corporate lobbies are undefeated on this issue. No state has ever banned the practice of using taxpayer money to pay for overseas labor.
Peter Viles, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: On Capitol Hill today, emotion turned to outrage as members of the House International Relations Committee heard testimony from Americans who have lost their jobs to foreigners, in this case, foreigners who hold a controversial form of work visa.
Congress has for months now been considering legislation that would drastically cut the number of foreign workers that large corporations can bring into this country. So far, none of those bills has come to a vote.
Bill Tucker reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. jobs leaving America were the focus on Capitol Hill.
LANTOS: One of the most critical economic problems facing U.S. foreign policy, the wholesale export of American jobs by corporations that are putting profits above people and above our national interests.
TUCKER: The committee hearing from tech workers who lost their jobs to L-1 visa holders, visas which were originally meant for a company to be able to transfer workers from their overseas operations on a temporary basis to familiarize them with the way the company works.
PAT FLUNO, COMPUTER PROGRAMMER: My job still exists. So my skill is still required, all right? It still exists, but it is being filled by a visa holder. And that visa holder does the work for one- third the price.
TUCKER: And the crowded hearing room seemed to fuel open hostility. And the industry came under sharp questioning.
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CALIFORNIA: Who am I supposed to believe, the unemployed constituent of mine who is coming in saying, I can't get a job and I have these skills, or am I suppose to believe industry, who is coming in and saying, we can't find anybody to do the work?
TUCKER: And in the middle of discussions about ways to fix the L-1 visa program, which has no limit on numbers that can be issued or on salary requirements, the industry spokesman warned of possible retribution, which sparked outrage.
REP. EARL BLUMENAUER (D), OREGON: If you are going to buy the line that somehow putting reasonable regulations like this is tantamount to a trade war, then I think that you're likely to find this Congress doing things that really will be a trade war, if we can't take simple, commonsense steps.
TUCKER: Still, the Information Technology Association of America, of which Time Warner is a member, insisted that the L-1 visa program is fundamentally sound. He'll get another day to make his point.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: And, Lou, there wasn't an empty chair in the audience today. And while the workers are encouraged by the increased attention from the public, they're less sure that Congress will find the will to act Lou.
DOBBS: Judging by the reaction in that hearing room, though, today, Bill, it looked as though Congress is focusing sharply on the issue. And is there a sense in that room or amongst those you have talked with that they are ready to take action?
TUCKER: There is a growing awareness of the problem and a greater sensitivity on the part of elected officials. It always helps that it's an election year, Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much -- Bill Tucker from Washington.
The economy is obviously in recovery, but as almost 10 million out-of-work Americans can now attest, job growth has not been part of this recovery. Economists blame a boom in worker productivity for the lack of new job creation. In the second half of 2003, productivity surged 9 percent. And the reason for that high productivity rate may be the high number of American jobs that have been exported overseas.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The higher U.S. productivity, the more jobs created in the United States, that used to be conventional wisdom. But not so fast, says the chairman of the House Small Business Committee. It's not technology, but offshore outsourcing which is fueling productivity.
REP. DON MANZULLO (R), ILLINOIS: Classically, an increase in productivity led eventually to an increase in jobs in the economic cycle. Today, it doesn't.
SYLVESTER: Let's say last year it used to take 10 American workers to make 1,000 widgets. But if a company decides to buy 20 percent of its widget parts from China, it would only need eight U.S. workers. On paper, it would look like a gain in U.S. productivity.
Current U.S. productivity figures do not take into account the offshoring effects. Labor unions say the trend is killing the American middle-class worker, from factory workers to engineers. Small American businesses are also being squeezed.
THEA LEE, AFL-CIO: They're back here in the United States trying to do what they have always done, produce goods with American workers and support their communities. And -- but we have trade policies and tax policies that are putting them at a disadvantage.
SYLVESTER: But not everyone agrees. The Manufacturers Alliance, an industry group for CEOs, argues, the impact of outsourcing is limited.
THOMAS DUESTERBERG, MANUFACTURERS ALLIANCE: Our study shows that the impact of outsourcing on productivity is fairly limited, in fact, much less than 10 percent.
SYLVESTER: But even the Manufacturers Alliance agrees that who gains from the offshoring productivity boost is not necessarily the American worker.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Congressman Manzullo says CEOs need to focus not just on the next earnings statement, but on the long-term implications. If the offshoring trend continues, he says there will be fewer Americans left who can afford to buy their products -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much -- Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.
Still ahead here, my next guest, the governor of the state of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm. We'll be talking about what she is doing to help her state's residents to keep their jobs. I'll also be talking with Senator Chuck Hagel about his proposal, in conjunction with Senator Tom Daschle, to reform the nation's immigration laws.
As well, the most damaging testimony so far today against Martha Stewart. We'll have a live report from the courthouse in New York City.
Also ahead tonight, the man who calls himself America's toughest sheriff. And he has a unique way of dealing with illegal aliens. We'll have that special report.
And defending the intelligence on Iraq. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, CIA Director George Tenet lead the administration's counterattack. I'll be joined by former CIA Director James Woolsey.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My first guest tonight is among those at the forefront of the battle to keep the jobs of hardworking Americans in this country. She's the governor of the state of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm. The governor was elected in 2002. She is the first female governor in the state's 166-year history. Governor Granholm joins us tonight from East Lansing, Michigan.
Good to have you with us.
GOV. JENNIFER GRANHOLM (D), MICHIGAN: Thank you.
DOBBS: The battle to keep jobs in this country, what have you been able to do that's effective in stopping the exporting of these American jobs?
GRANHOLM: Yes, I mean, as a governor, it's difficult to impact international trade policy.
We hear all the time that the states have got to be a low-cost environment. And we have done everything we possibly can to achieve that. We've tried to clear out regulatory hurdles, tried to create one-stop shops for permitting, reduce permitting time. We have worked with the unions to achieve low-cost -- lower-cost labor.
I'll give you an example of this, Lou, is in Greenville, Michigan, a couple weeks ago, a firm called Electrolux, which just decided to move to Mexico, had 2,700 jobs at stake in a town of 8,000 people. And we went to them and offered them zero taxes for 20 years, an entirely new plant, huge labor concessions to the tune of $32 million a year. And it was not enough to compete with a country paying $1.57 an hour.
How do we as governors and as an entire country compete with companies that are paying a fraction of our minimum wage? It is a very difficult question. And this is why, in this election year, I think it's very important to pose the question on both sides of the aisle to these candidates and say, what are you going to do to stand up to make this playing field for our American businesses and jobs?
DOBBS: Well, obviously, Governor, it's becoming increasingly an important issue in this campaign. It has not moved to the forefront, I think you and I would agree.
But at least Senator John Kerry, whom I know you support in the race for the Democratic Party nomination, General Clark, General Wesley Clark, Senator John Edwards, and certainly Dennis Kucinich have all focused on these issues, at least at the margin.
What do you think, from your perspective in the state of Michigan, where you have lost about 20 percent of the manufacturing jobs over the course of, what, the last three to four years...
GRANHOLM: Three years.
DOBBS: What do you think can be done?
GRANHOLM: We have lost about 300,000 jobs. And 170,000 of them are in the manufacturing sector.
What we need to do is several things. In fact, I pulled together labor and business manufacturers and we came up with a consensus agenda. Clearly, we've got to make sure that we go after those international trade policies that the United States has been lax on, for example, allowing the manipulation of currency, whether it's in China or Japan, for example, protecting our companies intellectual property when they do trade abroad, for example, going after the nontariff trade barriers that have been placed up by other countries.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Governor, you just said the dirty word. You said tariff. You are going to be criticized as a dirty protectionist, a retrograde.
(CROSSTALK)
GRANHOLM: No, no, what I said was, we should go after other countries who are placing nontariff barriers in the way of our exports.
So I'm not interested in being a protectionist, but I am interested in leveling this playing field. And one of the ways we have to do this is to sign trade agreements that have core labor and environmental standards and enforceable protections in them. I think, frankly, any member of Congress that votes in favor of another trade agreement that does not level the playing field, that does not require core and enforceable environmental and labor standards is really in jeopardy of losing their election.
This has become such a huge issue in Michigan and in other manufacturing states, that this election, this presidential election, I hope, and with the help of shows like yours, we will really bring it to the forefront.
DOBBS: Oh, Governor, there are no shows like ours. There are no states like Michigan. The fact is...
GRANHOLM: That's true.
(LAUGHTER)
GRANHOLM: Excellent show and an excellent state.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Governor, the fact is that, this weekend, you have a primary, an important primary, what, 128 delegates at stake.
GRANHOLM: Yes.
DOBBS: And I know you support John Kerry. Give us your best sense as to how important this issue will be in determining the outcome of that primary election?
GRANHOLM: Oh, this is the No. 1 issue in our state. And it's not the economy, stupid. It's the jobs, stupid.
And as you alluded to in the segment prior to this, this has not been a jobless recovery. It's been a job-loss recovery in Michigan. And that is not acceptable. This is why this is the No. 1 issue here. And for us, we need a president who is going to stand up for Michigan jobs and one that is likely to be elected, a candidate that is likely to be elected.
John Kerry has a very good manufacturing platform. And he will help the automotive industry as well, which, of course, is our main industry.
DOBBS: I understand. And I think it's important that we point out, so does General Wesley Clark, Senator John Edwards, and Dennis Kucinich.
GRANHOLM: Yes.
There's a number of good platforms. You are right. And the Democrats, many of them, have very good manufacturing platforms. John Kerry just happens to have the one that is the longest. I'm aware that he has had his longer than any of the others and a specific one relative to autos.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Governor, we thank you very much for being with us here tonight. Come back soon.
GRANHOLM: Thank you. You bet.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: How confident are you that either political party will work effectively in your best interest on this issue, very, somewhat, a little, or not at all? Cast your vote, please, at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have results for you later in the broadcast. Coming up next, explosive testimony today from the government's star witness in the trial of Martha Stewart. We'll have a live report for you from Lower Manhattan.
And two highly anticipated rulings on gay marriage in this country -- those stories and a great deal more just ahead.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Explosive testimony today in the trial of Martha Stewart, new testimony that directly contradicts what Stewart and her co- defendant in the case, Peter Bacanovic, have told government investigators.
Mary Snow is at the federal courthouse in Lower Manhattan tonight with the very latest for us -- Mary.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it was the most damaging testimony yet against Martha Stewart and Peter Bacanovic, her former stockbroker.
The government's star witness, Doug Faneuil, testified what he says was a cover-up. The former stock broker's assistant handled Martha Stewart's trade of ImClone stock in late December of 2001. And he testified today that he passed along a tip that ImClone founder Sam Waksal was trying to dump his shares.
He testified about a phone conversation he had with Stewart on December 27, 2001, in which he quotes her as calling up the office, saying, "What is going on with Sam?" Faneuil said he didn't have any company news, but that Peter, her broker, thought, "You might want to act on information that Sam Waksal is trying to sell all of his shares." She asks, "All of his shares?"'
He then went on the tell him the price of the stock. She instructed him to sell. Faneuil claims in testimony that Bacanovic subsequently told him that Stewart sold her shares as part of a tax loss selling plan that they had both agreed to. He then claims that Bacanovic said it was part of a stop-loss order.
And then Bacanovic said, at one point, he tried to have a conversation with his former boss and he said he wanted to talk about what happened with Martha Stewart, saying: "I was there. I know what happened." He testified that Peter Bacanovic put his hand on Doug Faneuil's shoulder saying, "With all due respect, no, you don't."
Now, Martha Stewart has maintained all along that she had a preexisting agreement to sell ImClone once it fell below $60 a share. And now defense attorneys have their crack at questioning Doug Faneuil. Today, they began questioning him and chipping away at his credibility, asking him about his admission of drug use, including pot and ecstasy -- Lou.
DOBBS: Mary, thank you very much -- Mary Snow reporting from the federal courthouse in Lower Manhattan.
The Massachusetts Supreme Court today paved the way for the nation's first same-sex marriages. The high court told lawmakers they must give gay couples marriages rights that are equal to those of other married couples. Next week, the state's constitutional convention will consider an amendment that would legally define marriage as a union between one man and one woman.
And, separately in Ohio, a bill there to ban gay marriages is headed to the governor's desk. Lawmakers in Ohio approved the Defense of Marriage Act, the 38th state to pass such law.
Coming up next, ricin in the Senate. Tonight, it is a job for the U.S. Marine Corps. We'll have that story for you.
CIA Director George Tenet is set to defend his agency against criticism of the intelligence gathered before the war in Iraq -- that defense tomorrow morning. Tonight, I'll be joined by one of his predecessors, James Woolsey.
And you can call it frontier justice, perhaps. In the old Southwest, one Arizona sheriff has a bold new plan to make illegal aliens earn their way.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The chief of the U.S. Capitol Police, Terrance Gainer, today said investigators have discovered no clues about the terrorist who sent the poison ricin to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. U.S. Marines have joined that investigation. They joined today. They are from a specialized unit that deals with chemical and biological incidents. No Senate staff member has reported any symptoms from the ricin.
Senator Frist today said the office buildings closed by the attack will begin to reopen tomorrow. Meanwhile, the White House defended its decision not to tell the public about a ricin attack in November.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We obviously take public health risks very seriously. And if there is information that needs to be shared, we share it appropriately. I think you see that by what we have done to act on other threats that we face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Turning to Capitol Hill today, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld there to say it is too early to say whether Iraq did or did not possess weapons of mass destruction. Secretary Rumsfeld's remarks were his first public comments on the subject since David Kay said Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction before the war.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In back-to-back appearances before the House and Senate armed services committees. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld refused to concede any intelligence failure in the pre-war assessment Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The impression that has and is being created of broad intelligence failures can be dispelled.
MCINTYRE: Rumsfeld dismissed the widely held theory that Iraq had no chemical or biological weapons before the war as, quote, "possible but not likely. And he insisted that Saddam Hussein was to blame for the U.S. intelligence consensus Iraq was hiding WMDs.
RUMSFELD: Saddam Hussein's behavior during that period reinforced that conclusion. He did not behave like someone who was disarming and wanted to prove he was doing so.
MCINTYRE: Democrats grilled Rumsfeld over his assertion made ten days into the war that the Pentagon knew the location of Iraq's unconventional weapons. They were stashed around Baghdad and Tikrit where U.S. forces had not yet reached.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY, (D) MASSACHUSETTS: Then you say in March '03 we know where they are. We know where they are. That is an extraordinary leap and that extraordinary leap was wrong.
MCINTYRE: Rumsfeld said he was referring to suspected WMD sites not the weapons themselves. It was one of the few times during his grilling Rumsfeld grudgingly conceded he might have been wrong.
RUMSFELD: And you are quite right, shorthand we know where they are, probably turned out to be not exactly what one would have preferred in retrospect.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: But Rumsfeld insisted the jury is still out about whether the prewar intelligence was wrong. He noted that Saddam Hussein was found after ten months of searching, in a hole which he said would have been big enough to hold a fairly good stockpile of deadly germs or gas. He said unlike Saddam Hussein, if those things were buried in such a hole, they could stay there forever without having to come out -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
CIA director George Tenet tomorrow will forcefully depend his agency's prewar judgments about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Tenet is also expected to say intelligence that is not a crystal ball when he delivers his speech at Georgetown University. National security correspondent, David Ensor, has the report -- David. DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, for Tenet the speech will be a chance to respond to criticism from David Kay, his former weapons inspector in Iraq, who says that U.S. intelligence given to the president before the war about WMD was wrong. According to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, Tenet may also make a little news. He may reveal a U.S. intelligence success story or two that have been unknown until now, at least in public.
Tenet will also respond to Kay's statements that the CIA was wrong, had underestimated how advanced Libya and Iran's nuclear programs were. Officials say Libya decided to give up its program in part after hearing how much the CIA already knew about it.
This hastily arranged speech is an unusual move for the director of central intelligence. Tenet usually keep as pretty low profile, but CIA officials decide they needed to respond to Kay and to Democratic presidential candidates who have been criticizing in the last week or so before it becomes the conventional wisdom that U.S. intelligence got nothing right in Iraq.
DOBBS: David, thank you. David Ensor, national security correspondent.
Joining me now is one of George Tenet's predecessor as the head of the CIA, former CIA director James Woolsey. Good to have you with us.
JAMES WOOLSEY, FRM. DIR. CIA: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: It appears that George Tenet has a very large task in front of him tomorrow, given the fact that there have been no weapons of mass destruction found. In defending himself, his agency and the intelligence community, how do you think he will go about it?
WOOLSEY: I hope he uses some numbers. And because the apparent confusion on this -- the confusion between weapons and agent, such as, let's say the anthrax that would go in a biological weapon, and adjectives like large and small and so on. No one can get this sorted out unless you put some numbers to it.
We understood from what Saddam himself admitted, that he had made 8, 500 liters of anthrax. And Colin Powell, following George Tenets national intelligence estimate in early 2003 said, U.S. intelligence thought it might be as much as 25,000 liters. Now those sound like big numbers, but that's about 8.5 tons or 25 tons which is less than half a tractor trailer load or tractor trailer load and a bit.
And that is in liquid, if you take the liquid out of the Anthrax and just leave the powder of the sort we all were worried about two years ago here in Washington, the entire anthrax stockpile of agent that would go into shells or bombs was something between four and 12 suitcases worth.
So I think George needs to educate people and I hope he does. I believe he will in some ways. About what is actually involved here. We're not talking about massive piles of ordinance at all. DOBBS: I understand the importance of the scale, the size, large and small of the agents, but we've also watched as a migration of the terminology, the definition of is, if you will be, which is popular on both sides of the aisle in Washington, as you know. The expression was very clear, weapons of mass destruction. Not weapons of mass destruction programs. Not -- it was a very definitive statement by the CIA, with secretary of state Colin Powell standing straight forward pointing about mobile laboratories talking about location.
Why in the world, with all of the experience of the CIA, in it's failure and successes, would there not be simply the statement that we were wrong, that we did our best, we were wrong. Because at this point, it's wrong.
WOOLSEY: Well, it's wrong in so far as what has been found so far. But this country is the size of California.
DOBBS: No, no, Jim I don't mean that. I don't mean to suggest that anyone is wrong about the fact that perhaps there will be found some weapon of mass destruction. I wouldn't rule out that possibility. But the fact is they have not been found.
WOOLSEY: That's true.
DOBBS: We were led to believe there was a high order of specificity, not only about the existence of the weapons of mass destruction, but about their location. We had satellite pictures. We had very specific emphatic statements being made by officials in Washington.
WOOLSEY: A lot of the material that came out about specificity, individual units, having had weapons, agent in them, moved to them and so forth, came in rather late. And both David Kay and some earlier press reports have suggested even a number of Iraqi generals were deceived and thought, for example, that although they didn't have chemical weapons in their unit, the units on each of their flanks did.
I think that's part of the explanation for how things could have been wrong, again, assuming they are. Which is that there was, according to David Kay again, a deception program by the Iraqi government and, indeed, in one of David's formulations he suggested Saddam Hussein himself may have been deceived by his own scientists who were pocketing the money and not producing weapons.
So, we have what David Kay accurately call as vortex of corruption and fraud here, and it's sort of a twilight zone of intelligence. There's a lot of things that we don't know yet and maybe George will tomorrow cast some light on it.
DOBBS: Well, we look forward to hearing what he has to say and we are always glad to hear what you have to say. Thank you for being here.
Coming up next, an Arizona sheriff known for somewhat unorthodox methods in dealing with law enforcement, with prisoners. He is getting tough on illegal aliens and giving them exactly what they want, at least the opportunity for it.
We'll also be talking with Senator Chuck Hagel about his proposed legislation to reform our nation's immigration nightmare.
And our talk with a panel of leading political journalists as this presidential campaign moves ahead, John Kerry surging to the top, and tonight, one Democrat no longer in the race. We'll be right back. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens stream into this country each year placing strains, among other things, on law enforcement agencies all across the country. In one county in Arizona, 10 percent of the prison population is now made up of illegal aliens but the sheriff there has a plan to help some criminal aliens repay their debt to this society, to this country. Casey Wian reports from Phoenix, Arizona.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Joe Arpaio likes to be known as America's toughest sheriff. He's made a name for himself by housing Maricopa county, Arizona's criminals in tents, dressing them in pink underwear and jailbird stripes. Even putting women in chain gangs. Now Arpaio is getting tough on the illegal aliens who make up nearly 10 percent of his jail population. He is asking them to register with the U.S. selective service in case the military draft ever returns.
SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY: If you ask anybody, they do not know that illegals must also sign up. They are shocked when I tell them that. It's in the law. It says illegal immigrants, aliens, must also sign up. I'm just enforcing the law.
WIAN: It's true, all males between the ages of 18 and 26 must sign a draft card even if they don't have a green card. Failure to comply can result in five years in prison and a $250,000 fine. So far, Arpaio has registered 500 illegal aliens and 1,200 other inmates. He says only about 100 illegals have refused. He'll submit their names to Selective Service.
Sheriff Arpaio's program could actually help jailed illegal aliens stay in the United States. If the draft ever resumes and they end up joining the military, it could help them become U.S. citizens.
That's why Francisco Dominguez (ph), an illegal alien serving eight months for fighting and hit-and-run driving singed up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): By going into the draft and Selective Services that would benefit him by coming, you know, maybe becoming a citizen. This country offers a lot. If you're a citizen it offers more.
ARPAIO: My theory is if you can fight for your country, if that day ever comes, fight for your country then the least we can do is make them United States citizens.
WIAN: For now, Arpaio's program appears largely symbolic since there are no plans to reinstate the draft. However with reserve units facing longer and more frequent deployments, it's not out of the question. Casey Wian, CNN, Phoenix, Arizona.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next, I'll be talking with Senator Chuck Hagel about his proposed legislation to reform our nation's immigration laws. They are badly in need of it. And I'll be talking about the results of these primaries with two leading political journalists as the race for the Democratic presidential nomination heightens. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest is the co-sponsor of a bill that would pave the way for millions of illegal aliens to become citizens of the United States. Senator Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska, joins me now from Washington D.C. Good to have you with us, Senator.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: This bipartisan proposal with the Senator Tom Daschle goes farther than any other piece of legislation or proposal that I'm aware of for legislation border security, not rewarding illegal aliens for having broken the law, how do you deal with those two specific issues, first, because that's where the greatest opposition will come from?
HAGEL: Well, first of all, I think it's important for Americans to understand, currently, we have a system that does not work. It's contradictory, it's inconsistent, and we know or at least based on our best estimates, there are eight to ten to 12 million illegal immigrants in the country now. Things are not getting better. We can't continue to defer the problem.
So what Senator Daschle and I have proposed and it's very consistent with President Bush's principles that he laid down, was to start dealing with this. We deal with it on the basis of first of all, let's get a system that works. It's a comprehensive system. Let's get a system that deals with national security. That secures the border. Let's get a system that stops the black marketing of labor, that keeps people down, hurts our American workers.
We do that principally by trying to incentivise (ph) those illegals in the country today, by bringing them up and out of the closet. Giving them some incentive to get into the system. There are six major criteria that we go through that they would have to follow in order to do that. We would increase the visas so that we could reunite families. We think that's important. We would put further and more resources into securing our border. And a number of obviously details that go with that. That's the general dynamic and concept of the bill.
DOBBS: You talk about a proficiency in English. Does that mean that anyone would be required to speak clearly, serviceably, the English language.
HAGEL: Lou, we think that's fundamental. That's one of the six criteria we put forward in order to get the illegals into a system where they can start to move toward a legal status. They must have some sense of English because they can't communicate otherwise. And so that is a big part of it.
DOBBS: And obviously, the registration of illegal aliens in this country to begin this process, I've talked with a number of people who are amongst those, experts on immigration. They think it's going to be very difficult to achieve. Do you think this bill, which I must say, Senator, in my judgment is the most rational, humane, and most effective proposal I have seen, has a chance of getting through as law?
HAGEL: Probably not this year, Lou, because this is going to be a raw partisan year. But I think like everything in this business, you must first lay down a base of education, of knowledge, of comprehension and then put something positive forward. That's what Senator Daschle and I have done in a bipartisan way. So I'm hopeful we're going to make a lot of progress this year and hopefully we could enact something next year.
DOBBS: I hope you'll return and we'll talk more about this as the year -- in this partisan year goes forward. Senator Chuck Hagel, thanks for being with us.
Our thought tonight is on this country's immigration policy. "We have the most generous immigration policy but what is the concerns when illegal immigrants come and undermine a variety of the systems that work in order to make our society function." Those are the words of former secretary of state Madeleine Albright.
A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question, "how confident are you that either political party will work effectively in your best interest on any number of issues? Very, somewhat, little, or not at all." Cast your vote, please, at CNN.com/lou. We'll have the results for you coming right up.
On Wall Street today, stock prices tumbled. The Dow down 34 points. The Nasdaq down 52. The S&P down 9.5. Christine Romans is here with "The Market" and Christine, this is starting to look like it might be a correction.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A long overdue correction, Lou. The Nasdaq is down 6 percent, just about a week and a half some of the real high flyers from last year are in full fledged correction mode. Cisco off 18 percent. Lucent off about 16 percent. Lou, many of the China stocks have shaved a third off of their event rallies. As we discussed here, China becoming the new story on Wall Street and it looks like that bubble may be bursting. The hottest Chinese IPO, China Life, has a $600 million accounting skeleton in its closet. China state audit office found a myriad of accounting errors of the predecessor company of China Life and that stock tumbled today along with most of the other formerly hot China stocks.
DOBBS: That's very impressive. China is really catching up...
ROMANS: A big selloff for all of those. It is interesting, too, many speculators hungry for China (UNINTELLIGIBLE) have ignored concerns about transparency in Chinese companies and...
DOBBS: It is a communist country, isn't it?
ROMANS: It is.
DOBBS: I thought so.
ROMANS: Some management issues as well. Seems like the old sort of communist management ways in some of these newly public companies.
Now, as capital goes to China from investors, jobs are going there through cheap foreign labor. Fund manager Bill Gross worries that jobs creation will stay in China and India and Latin America and hurt the U.S. economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL GROSS, PIMCO: If you get a domestic slowdown on top of an outsourcing, then not only do you have low job growth, but perhaps negative and higher unemployment for sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: For sure. And Lou, I keep hearing the same analogy, that this economy is like a three-legged stool. The fourth leg is jobs, and it hasn't come yet. Wobbling. At some point, it could tip.
DOBBS: And for the middle class in this country, that is the foundation, indeed.
ROMANS: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Christine, thanks. Christine Romans.
Well, coming up next, it's still a race for the Democratic presidential nomination, but John Kerry is looking stronger than ever. We'll talk about the race for the White House. We'll talk with Ron Brownstein of "Los Angeles Times," Tom DeFrank of "The New York Daily News."
But first, updating our list of companies confirmed to be exporting America. These are the U.S. companies sending American jobs overseas, or choosing to employ cheap foreign labor instead of American workers. Our additions to the 250 companies we have already confirmed include tonight -- SMC Networks, Tellabs and Werner.
For the complete list of those companies confirmed to be exporting America, please log on to cnn.com/lou. I understand that a number of you had a problem with that early this morning. It has been fixed. I am told the hyperlinks are all working, cnn.com/lou. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results now of our poll. Ten percent of you say you are very confident that either political party will work effectively in your best interest. Twenty-two percent are somewhat confident. Nineteen percent a little; 48 percent not at all.
Returning to the top story of the day, the growing lead of Senator John Kerry in the Democratic presidential contest. I'm joined now by two of the country's leading political journalist, Ron Brownstein, national political correspondent for "Los Angeles Times," Tom DeFrank, Washington bureau chief, "New York Daily News." Both joining us tonight from Washington. Gentlemen, good to have you with us.
As we look at these delegate numbers now, it's very early in the contest, obviously. Is there any sense that this thing is sewed up by John Kerry, Tom?
TOM DEFRANK, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Well, I don't think it's sewed up yet. But politics is a momentum game, and Howard Dean is zero in nine. Wesley Clark is one in eight. It's just hard to see how Kerry stumbles. I mean, you get the feeling that Kerry has been told by somebody, it's time not to make mistakes, Senator. If you don't make mistakes, you're going to be fine, and at the moment he doesn't seem to be making mistakes.
DOBBS: Ron, I hear Tom talking about it's a momentum game. We have General Clark's son complaining about the media not dealing with issues, focusing on the horse race, the momentum. How much justification is there for what General Clark's son complained about?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, look, momentum, as Tom said, is as important as it has ever been in this race. If you look at polls in states like Arizona and South Carolina, where Edwards -- I'm sorry, where Kerry ran well or won, he was at 3, 5, percent in early January 7 percent in Michigan. He's not at 56 percent. So clearly momentum has had a big impact on this.
I don't think it's entirely fair, though, to say that the press has been ignoring issues. I think it's more accurate to say that the Democratic candidates, with the exception of Howard Dean on Iraq, have failed to find ways to differentiate themselves on almost all of the issues that are before the electorate. You don't really see a lot of voters saying, I'm for John Kerry over John Edwards or vice versa, because of their health care plans. It's really been about broader profile characteristics -- experience, electability, that kind of thing.
DOBBS: And yet issues are what define where this country is headed. We just heard Governor Granholm on this broadcast, Tom, say that in her state it's all, as she put it, it's the jobs, stupid. Is that resonating, as you take the pulse of the country in this primary season?
DEFRANK: Well, I think it's beginning to resonate, Lou, especially in places like Ohio. For instance, Ohio should be a slam dunk Republican state. It's not. It's the layer of the Taft family, the Taft dynasty, and President Bush has got some problem there, especially since Ohio is a place where lots of jobs have disappeared overseas and have not come back.
So I don't think the loss of jobs is a big deal now, but it is starting to grow as an issue. And I think unless those jobs start coming back soon, it's going to be a significant problem for the president.
BROWNSTEIN: Lou, can I just jump in?
DOBBS: Sure.
BROWNSTEIN: It is clearly going to be a big issue in the general election, between any Democrat and Bush. The issue right now is how much of an issue is it between, or among the Democrats themselves? And as I said, I don't think they really found a way to differentiate themselves that much on the issue yet.
That may be changing. I mean, John Edwards is moving into a sort of Dick Gephardt lane increasingly in the race, criticizing the North American Free Trade Agreement, criticizing John Kerry as a free trader. Also scoring points with blue-collar voters around a greater sense of empathy. There is an argument, there is a way he can run this race. It's apparent in the exit polls last night, he's a good campaigner. The question is whether he really has enough time to put together this argument, enough money, at a moment in the race where the momentum is clearly with John Kerry.
DOBBS: John Kerry with the momentum, Tom, Dean reports that he's struggling with money. How much money does Edwards have, Wes Clark, he spent a fortune on these -- six, seven states as you reported here last night, Ron. How long can they carry the contest?
DEFRANK: I don't think they can -- either one of them can stay too much longer, especially Dean. Kerry can stay in for a while, and so can Clark. You know, Dean, whoever thought that we'd be saying at this point from momentum to no-mentum in 14 short days, as a Republican analyst said the other day. I mean, I think Dean is gone. He just hadn't figured it out yet. Or maybe he has.
BROWNSTEIN: Howard Dean may go on to a dubious achievement. Real quick, not since 1980 has a candidate raised the most money in the year before failed to win his party's nomination, and Howard Dean's the first in 25 years to wear that collar.
DOBBS: Well, the race continues. We move on to Michigan and to the state of Washington this weekend. Ron Brownstein and Tom DeFrank, we thank you both for being with us here.
That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Tomorrow night, we'll be joined by Jim Tillman (ph). He is an American entrepreneur. It's his business that's failing because of foreign competition and unfair trade policies. We're going to the source. And we'll be joined by the CEO of a company that helps other companies to send work to cheap foreign labor markets. Both signs of a troubling issue for this economy and for the nation. We hope you'll join us tomorrow night.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
END
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Backlash Over Outsourcing>
