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CNN Live Today

'Passion' Movie Debate

Aired February 06, 2004 - 10:51   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: And now for a movie that could be one of the most talked about of the year. It is a movie that many Christians believe might help bring nonbelievers to Jesus. It will play at some movie theaters beginning on February 25th. The Mel Gibson produced and directed film that's called "The Passion of The Christ," has already been screened by at least 10,000 Christian leaders. Many of them are urging their flocks to invite non- Christians to see the film. It depicts the crucifixion of Christ in violent detail, but some Jewish leaders say that the film distorts the scriptures, and fears it might set off a wave of anti-Semitism.
For more we are joined by Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, and Morris Chapman of the Southern Baptist Convention in Nashville.

Gentlemen, good morning to both of you. Thank you for being with us.

And one reason we both invited you. You each have seen the movie, this is right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

KAGAN: All right,, Mr. Chapman, let's start with you. How do some Christians see this as an opportunity to spread the word?

MORRIS CHAPMAN, SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION: After seeing the preview, I was stirred to the depths of very my soul. It is the most graphic, dramatic portrayal of what our Lord Jesus Christ went through than anything I have seen. To watch Jesus back beaten, bit by the cat of nine tails was just almost unbearable. And you just can't go to the film and remain unaffected. I believe that people who see the film will begin to question who is Jesus. And many of them will find the answer.

KAGAN: Rabbi Hier, I understand that you were moved as well, but for a very different reason.

RABBI MARVIN HIER, SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER: Absolutely. I saw the film twice. I have never seen a more negative portrayal of Jews than in this film. I'm not talking about the high priests only, all Jews. They never have an intelligent thing to say in a two-hour film. The Romans are made to look good. The audience will only have one conclusion -- if the Romans look good, with the exception of the four whippers, and the Jews look so bad, who is responsible for this terrible inhumanity inflicted on Jesus? And they will only conclude that it was the Jews collectively, which will stir anti-semitic feelings, even if it's not immediate, all over the world.

KAGAN: Mr. Chapman, let me bring you back in here. Is it possible that it's all true that it is a moving depiction of the crucifixion of Christ, and yet there could also be anti-Semitism in this movie at the same time?

CHAPMAN: Well, I think that that thought is in the hearing of the one who listens. Jesus Christ...

KAGAN: Certainly you're not calling Rabbi Hier anti-Semitic.

CHAPMAN: Absolutely not. I'm not calling anybody anti-Semitic. I'm just saying that we can either concentrate upon a negative aspect of what took place in history. We're talking about reality in history, but the fact is, the real message is still there, and that is, that Jesus Christ died for our sins.

KAGAN: Now hold on one second, I want to perhaps help you here, because you say we're talking about reality and history, are you talking about at as it's depicted, that all Jews at that time were bad and the Romans were good?

CHAPMAN: Absolutely not. Yes, God so loved the worked that he gave his only begotten son to the world, to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to die for us. And in fact, he sent his son through the Israelites. Jesus himself was a Jew. People who love Christ loved the Jewish nation.

KAGAN: Rabbi Hier, let's bring you back in here. Mr. Chapman is not alone. There are tens of thousands of people who have seen the movie that are very passionate. Is it possible the art world, the movie world is so big, there's room for all of it, for people to have this movie and let it touch people who it might spiritually, but not others?

HIER: Well, let me say this, there have been many films made about Jesus. None will have the reaction from Jews that as film will have, because the graphic brutality, the violence in the film is unprecedented, and it's directed only on one people. There can be no misjudgment about this. All the Jews in this film are deemed guilty.

CHAPMAN: Well, I disagree.

HIER: There's a very negative portrayal of Jews and very unfair.

CHAPMAN: I disagree with the rabbi at that point. The fact of the matter is that Christ died for all our sins. We all are responsible for putting Christ on the cross. In Isaiah 53, the Bible says the Lord has layeth (ph) on him the inequity of us all. The New Testament says for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And so the Jewish people didn't put him to death, the Romans didn't put him to death; we all put him to death.

And let me add quickly, that as I saw it, the Romans were the ones who were beating Jesus. Now in spite of the fact there were some who were calling for it is just a fact of history, because Jesus was a Jew.

HIER: That is not the film I saw. The Roman authorities, from Pontius Pilate down, the generals, the captains, were portrayed as sensitive and nice people, with the exception of the four whippers. And there can only be one -- in my view, there can only be one interpretation. At that time, the main people responsible for the terrible inhumanity inflicted on Jesus were the Jews, and that is unfair and a distorted view of history.

KAGAN: And with that, I'm going to have Rabbi Hier have the last word; Mr. Chapman you had the first. Gentlemen, fascinating how two men can see the same movie and take a completely different perspective away. Appreciate you sharing each of your insights with us this morning.

Thank you for being with us, thank you, Morris Chapman and Rabbi Marvin Hier.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired February 6, 2004 - 10:51   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: And now for a movie that could be one of the most talked about of the year. It is a movie that many Christians believe might help bring nonbelievers to Jesus. It will play at some movie theaters beginning on February 25th. The Mel Gibson produced and directed film that's called "The Passion of The Christ," has already been screened by at least 10,000 Christian leaders. Many of them are urging their flocks to invite non- Christians to see the film. It depicts the crucifixion of Christ in violent detail, but some Jewish leaders say that the film distorts the scriptures, and fears it might set off a wave of anti-Semitism.
For more we are joined by Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, and Morris Chapman of the Southern Baptist Convention in Nashville.

Gentlemen, good morning to both of you. Thank you for being with us.

And one reason we both invited you. You each have seen the movie, this is right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

KAGAN: All right,, Mr. Chapman, let's start with you. How do some Christians see this as an opportunity to spread the word?

MORRIS CHAPMAN, SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION: After seeing the preview, I was stirred to the depths of very my soul. It is the most graphic, dramatic portrayal of what our Lord Jesus Christ went through than anything I have seen. To watch Jesus back beaten, bit by the cat of nine tails was just almost unbearable. And you just can't go to the film and remain unaffected. I believe that people who see the film will begin to question who is Jesus. And many of them will find the answer.

KAGAN: Rabbi Hier, I understand that you were moved as well, but for a very different reason.

RABBI MARVIN HIER, SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER: Absolutely. I saw the film twice. I have never seen a more negative portrayal of Jews than in this film. I'm not talking about the high priests only, all Jews. They never have an intelligent thing to say in a two-hour film. The Romans are made to look good. The audience will only have one conclusion -- if the Romans look good, with the exception of the four whippers, and the Jews look so bad, who is responsible for this terrible inhumanity inflicted on Jesus? And they will only conclude that it was the Jews collectively, which will stir anti-semitic feelings, even if it's not immediate, all over the world.

KAGAN: Mr. Chapman, let me bring you back in here. Is it possible that it's all true that it is a moving depiction of the crucifixion of Christ, and yet there could also be anti-Semitism in this movie at the same time?

CHAPMAN: Well, I think that that thought is in the hearing of the one who listens. Jesus Christ...

KAGAN: Certainly you're not calling Rabbi Hier anti-Semitic.

CHAPMAN: Absolutely not. I'm not calling anybody anti-Semitic. I'm just saying that we can either concentrate upon a negative aspect of what took place in history. We're talking about reality in history, but the fact is, the real message is still there, and that is, that Jesus Christ died for our sins.

KAGAN: Now hold on one second, I want to perhaps help you here, because you say we're talking about reality and history, are you talking about at as it's depicted, that all Jews at that time were bad and the Romans were good?

CHAPMAN: Absolutely not. Yes, God so loved the worked that he gave his only begotten son to the world, to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to die for us. And in fact, he sent his son through the Israelites. Jesus himself was a Jew. People who love Christ loved the Jewish nation.

KAGAN: Rabbi Hier, let's bring you back in here. Mr. Chapman is not alone. There are tens of thousands of people who have seen the movie that are very passionate. Is it possible the art world, the movie world is so big, there's room for all of it, for people to have this movie and let it touch people who it might spiritually, but not others?

HIER: Well, let me say this, there have been many films made about Jesus. None will have the reaction from Jews that as film will have, because the graphic brutality, the violence in the film is unprecedented, and it's directed only on one people. There can be no misjudgment about this. All the Jews in this film are deemed guilty.

CHAPMAN: Well, I disagree.

HIER: There's a very negative portrayal of Jews and very unfair.

CHAPMAN: I disagree with the rabbi at that point. The fact of the matter is that Christ died for all our sins. We all are responsible for putting Christ on the cross. In Isaiah 53, the Bible says the Lord has layeth (ph) on him the inequity of us all. The New Testament says for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And so the Jewish people didn't put him to death, the Romans didn't put him to death; we all put him to death.

And let me add quickly, that as I saw it, the Romans were the ones who were beating Jesus. Now in spite of the fact there were some who were calling for it is just a fact of history, because Jesus was a Jew.

HIER: That is not the film I saw. The Roman authorities, from Pontius Pilate down, the generals, the captains, were portrayed as sensitive and nice people, with the exception of the four whippers. And there can only be one -- in my view, there can only be one interpretation. At that time, the main people responsible for the terrible inhumanity inflicted on Jesus were the Jews, and that is unfair and a distorted view of history.

KAGAN: And with that, I'm going to have Rabbi Hier have the last word; Mr. Chapman you had the first. Gentlemen, fascinating how two men can see the same movie and take a completely different perspective away. Appreciate you sharing each of your insights with us this morning.

Thank you for being with us, thank you, Morris Chapman and Rabbi Marvin Hier.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com