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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Interview With Ed Gillespie; Congress Looks to End Outsourcing
Aired February 11, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight: American companies shipping hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas. We call it exporting America. The White House calls it good for America. Congress wants it stopped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lou Dobbs has a Web site that lists all of the businesses in this country that are currently outsourcing jobs to other countries.
The White House on the defensive tonight over jobs, Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, and the president's military service. My guest tonight is the chairman of the Republican National Committee, Ed Gillespie.
What happened in Georgia? A sheriff's deputy in Columbus shot and killed an unarmed African-American man. It's been more than two months since his death. Investigators still are not saying what happened. We'll have a special report.
And in "Face-Off" tonight, assimilation, two very different views of what is one of the biggest challenges facing this country, how to assimilate culturally distinct immigrants into our society.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, February 11. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, the White House is on the defensive, even before the Democratic Party has settled on a presidential nominee. Despite a firestorm of criticism, the administration today maintained its claim that the outsourcing of American jobs to cheap overseas labor market is good for the economy. As for lawmakers on Capitol Hill, both Democratic and Republican, they blasted the White House. And one Republican lawmaker tonight is calling for the president's chief economic adviser to resign.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On Capitol Hill, a new wave of anger at the Bush White House for its claim that outsourcing of jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is actually good for the American economy.
SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: The economic report of the president signed by the president says that the export of American jobs is just fine, doesn't matter, no problem. In fact, it's a good thing. He is flat-out, dead wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks to this president, America now has a new No. 1 export, jobs.
VILES: Those Senate Democrats wrote to the president, asking him to repudiate those comments supporting outsourcing. Senator Hillary Clinton introduced legislation that would put the Senate on record opposing the outsourcing of American jobs.
And, in the House, Republican Don Manzullo of Illinois called for the resignation of the man who set outsourcing is a -- quote -- "good thing," Gregory Mankiw, who chairs the White House Council of Economic Advisers.
REP. DON MANZULLO (R), ILLINOIS: Mankiw is talking something differently than what the president believes and what the president is doing. So, you can't have an inconsistency in sending that type of a message out to the people that are losing their jobs. So the best thing is for Mankiw to step aside very quietly and for -- to have one less economist give a theory as to why we don't have jobs in America.
VILES: And in a House hearing, Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan was peppered with unusually aggressive questions and comments on outsourcing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, to add insult to injury, Mr. Chairman, we have this outsourcing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now that we have exported our manufacturing jobs, now that we are exporting our high-tech jobs and our service jobs, what areas are left for us to devote our productivity toward?
VILES: Greenspan, who is known for his political skills, generally dodged questions on outsourcing, saying it's the surge in productivity, not outsourcing, that is hurting job growth.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: And the White House today defended Mankiw, saying the calls for his resignation is -- quote -- "laughable," because the economic team he leads is -- quote -- "doing a great job."
Lou, this is not just one aide to the president. The president signed this document and it's a very strong statement supporting outsourcing.
DOBBS: And Scott McClellan is just simply wrong. It's not laughable, because a lot of critics on Capitol Hill are certainly not laughing, including the speaker of the House.
Pete, thank you very much. The speaker of the House of Representatives doesn't think the administration's top economist is doing a great job at all. In fact, late today, Dennis Hastert blasted Gregory Mankiw's views on outsourcing American jobs and released a statement saying, quote -- "I understand that Mr. Mankiw is a brilliant economic theorist, but his theory fails a basic test of real economics. An economy suffers when jobs disappear."
By the way, we've invited Gregory Mankiw, the chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, to join us for the last two nights here to talk about the issue of outsourcing. He has declined. Tonight, we want to assure him, the invitation remains open.
Outrage over the White House's support of outsourcing American jobs to cheap overseas labor market is also coming from the Democratic presidential candidates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They said that shipping jobs, American jobs, overseas is good for America.
(BOOING)
KERRY: And I -- I think you've answered the challenge. Let them tell that to a 45-year-old worker with three kids who doesn't have a job, who has seen the factory loss, who has seen their job gone, and who has nowhere to turn.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are people in America, in one America, who are making a fortune by shipping the jobs of the other America someplace else.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senators Kerry and Edwards making those comments, as they finished in first and second place, respectively, in the Tennessee and Virginia primaries.
The wins give Senator Kerry now 516 delegates, nearly a quarter of those needed to win the Democratic presidential nomination. Former Vermont Governor Howard Dean is second, with 182 delegates. Today, he went on the attack against Senator Kerry. Dean called him part of -- quote -- "the corrupt political culture of Washington" -- end quote -- and the lesser of two evils, as compared to President Bush. A spokesman for Senator Kerry called the Dean attack an act of desperation.
And General Wesley Clark today ended his campaign, after finishing in third place in both primaries. General Clark promised to continue campaigning for Democratic causes during the election.
Joining me now from Washington for the Republican view of the Democratic primary contest and the broader assault against President Bush and the White House is the chairman of the Republican National Committee, Ed Gillespie.
Good to have you with us.
ED GILLESPIE, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Good to be with you, Lou. Thanks for having me on.
DOBBS: This is a remarkable day, as the White House is under assault from several quarters, on the president's military service some 30 years ago as a member of the National Guard, on the issues of weapons of mass destruction, Iraq intelligence leading up -- intelligence on Iraq leading up to the war, on outsourcing.
This White House, to this point, has been considered pretty savvy, Ed. They don't look too savvy.
GILLESPIE: Well, look, Lou, the fact is that when you have people making charges against the president that are completely unfounded when you look at the facts -- for example, for the Clark campaign to say that the president is a deserter, desertion is a crime punishable by death in the military for military desertion.
For the chairman of the Democratic Party to say the president was AWOL, which is a felony punishable by imprisonment, and they are just flat wrong, as was made clear again yesterday, when the pay stubs were produced. The president served honorably in the National Guard. National Guard service is honorable. It is military service.
And the fact is that you can't just make things up. You know, these Democrats of entitled to their own opinion. Terry McAuliffe is entitled to his own opinion. But he is not entitled to his own facts. And the fact is that President Bush did serve honorably, as he had said. And it's wrong to suggest otherwise.
When it comes to the issue of the jobs, look, we have got to create more jobs in our economy. And the president's policies are resulting in that. We saw 113,000 jobs added to payroll last month, a growth rate of 4 percent in the last quarter, 8.2 percent in the quarter before that. We're seeing gains in the stock market, which are pumping up our 401(k) and college funds and retirement funds.
And the policies that Senator Kerry and other Democrats advocate of raising taxes on our economy are going to reverse those gains and are going to hinder job creation. And, in fact, having a high tax economy is only going to result in more jobs going overseas. And that's a mistake in policy. And the president is right and they are wrong. So we welcome this debate.
DOBBS: Well, the debate now is focused on the outsourcing of those jobs, the exporting of those jobs, to cheap overseas labor markets. My goodness, the chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers endorsing the idea -- the document has the president's signature on it, Ed. Dennis Hastert, the speaker of the House, criticizing him, Congressman Manzullo calling for his resignation.
The Democratic candidates, one of whom, most likely, Senator Kerry, to represent the Democratic Party, attacking the president on these issues. What in the world is going on here?
GILLESPIE: Well, Lou, I haven't seen this report. I have seen the news accounts of it. And all I know is this, that, if we're going to create jobs in this economy, the president's six-point plan for job creation is the way to do it.
He's vigorously out there every day working to make sure every American who wants a job can find a job. And his policies are the ones that are going to continue to foster economic recovery in this country. And raising taxes and increasing regulation and allowing for these lawsuits that drive up costs of goods and services and close down doctor's offices and to engage in the kinds of policies or to support the kind of policies that the Democrats propose are going to result in more job loss, not more job creation. I guarantee it.
DOBBS: Well, Ed, let me ask you, as the chairman of the RNC, the document signed by the president, written by the president's chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers, saying -- quote, unquote -- "The basic economic forces behind the transactions are the same," that is, exporting U.S. jobs to overseas cheap labor markets. They are the same.
"When a good or service is provided more cheaply abroad, it makes sense to import it than to provide it domestically." We have this issue. We have the issue of free trade. We have a half-trillion dollar current account deficit. These facts are representative of pain in middle America. Hardworking men and women in this country are getting hurt. What does the Republican National Committee want to say about that?
GILLESPIE: Well, what I want to say is -- and I'm not an economist. I was lucky to get my way out of college, let alone go to any kind of graduate school.
But I do understand the notion of competitive advantage. And, look, that's fine as long as we are creating high-paying jobs in our economy. And the fact is that we are seeing now economic growth that is going to create -- and we are seeing the creation of high-paying jobs in our economy.
That's the answer, to make sure that we're doing all we can to foster this economic growth, to make sure that every American who wants a job can have a job, and, at the same time, that we're doing what we need to do to keep the markets up and rising, as we have seen for the first time since 1999, because that results in -- look, Lou, I have got three children. We put our money into a college fund every month. And it's been going up as a result of the president's policies.
It's not the 85 bucks a month we put in there every month. It's the fact that the market has grown as a result of the dividend tax relief, the capital gains tax relief, the lower rates in general, and the spurred investment that's resulted from those policies. Reversing those policies would be a critical mistake. It would not benefit middle America at all. In fact, it would punish middle Americans.
DOBBS: Ed Gillespie, we thank you very much for being with us.
GILLESPIE: Thank you, Lou. Appreciate it.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question, do you agree with the Bush administration that outsourcing jobs to cheap overseas labor market is good for the American economy, yes or no? Please cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have results for you later here in the broadcast.
For his part, President Bush today focused on weapons of mass destruction. In a speech at the National Defense University in Washington, President Bush today called for international action to limit the number of countries allowed to produce nuclear fuel. The president said terrorists and terrorist states are in a race for weapons of mass murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The deadly technology and expertise on the market, there's the terrible possibility that terrorist groups could obtain the ultimate weapons they desire most.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: After the White House released the president's payroll records on his National Guard service 30 years ago, the president remains the focus of Democratic attacks. That military service provoked an extraordinary exchange on Capitol Hill today.
The exchange began when Democratic Congressman Sherrod Brown raised the controversy with Secretary of State Colin Powell during a hearing of the House International Relations Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: We count on you. The president may have been AWOL. The vice president said he had other priorities during Vietnam. Other high administrative officials never served. You understand war. We absolutely count on you. And I think a lot of us wonder what happened between that post-interview and your statement the next day, when you said the president made the right decision.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: First of all, Mr. Brown, I won't dignify your comments about the president, because you don't know what you're talking about.
Secondly, let me get to the points that you were raising.
BROWN: I'm sorry. I don't know what you mean, Mr. Secretary.
POWELL: You made reference to the president...
BROWN: Said he may been AWOL.
POWELL: Mr. Brown, let's not go there. Let's just not go there. Let's not go there in this hearing.
If you want to have a political fight with -- on this matter that is very controversial and I think is being dealt with by the White House, fine, but let's not go there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Secretary of State Powell.
Turning to Iraq, it was another bloody day. Insurgents set off a huge car bomb outside a recruiting center for the Iraqi army in Baghdad. Nearly 50 people were killed. Dozens more were wounded, the second major attack against Iraqis in two days. Yesterday, insurgents killed 55 people, as they exploded a bomb next to a line of people waiting to apply for jobs in the Iraqi police force.
DOBBS: Still to come here, a sheriff's deputy shot and killed an unarmed man in Georgia more than two months ago. Investigators still have not said what happened. We'll have a live report for you. And we'll be talking with the mayor of Columbus, Georgia.
Big media may be about to become even bigger. Some say that's just what we need. Comcast says it's what it needs. And Comcast wants to take over Disney, lawmakers and regulators alarmed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Where, in your view, does this consolidation that we already seen to obscene degree in radio stop? Where is the end point here?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And outrage and regret on Capitol Hill today over the now infamous Super Bowl halftime show, a new-time low.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A stunning move today that would consolidate the power of this country's media conglomerates even further. Comcast, the nation's largest cable operator, launched a hostile takeover for Disney. It's a bill worth $66 billion. It would create the largest media company in the world.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Mickey Mouse meets Comcast, it's just the sort of nightmare media convergence that critics of media consolidation warned would happen under the new expanded ownership rules.
BRIAN ROBERTS, CEO, COMCAST: We think our company is ready for this rather large and dramatic next step.
TUCKER: And dramatic may actually be an understatement. The deal would potentially combine Comcast's 21.5 million cable homes, 16 cable companies that it owns in whole or part, and two professional sports teams, with Disney's ABC Television Network, various cable properties, including the ESPN family of networks, the Disney movie studio and film library and amusement parks.
Reaction came very quickly from Washington.
MCCAIN: Where's the end point here? Is it OK for Disney to be bought by Comcast? And then, why don't they buy somebody else? And then why not Mr. Murdoch buy somebody else? And then we have, as one of our colleagues is fond of saying, many voices in one ventriloquist.
TUCKER: While Wall Street analysts are saying they see very little in the way of regulatory problems, they may be underestimating the political obstacles.
JEFF CHESTER, CENTER FOR DIGITAL DEMOCRACY: There is going to be a rising protest against this merger. And we hope that there will be a bipartisan majority in Congress agreeing to restore the prohibition against cable and TV station mergers.
TUCKER: Apparently mindful of that political backlash, the chairman of the FCC was cautious in his reaction.
MICHAEL POWELL, FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION CHAIRMAN: I don't know if Comcast will get Disney or not. It's a hostile bid. If it does, a merger of that magnitude will unquestionably go through the finest filter at the commission, I can assure you, that it is possible.
TUCKER: Disney's board has yet to accept any bid. And if it does, the deal will not only have to pass through the FCC, but through antitrust regulators as well.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Whatever happens with this takeover bid, Lou, in the words of one analyst, this promises to be the best entertainment that Disney has been a part of in some time -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much.
The chairman of the FCC, Michael Powell, told lawmakers today, the incident was a new low for prime-time television. He's referring to the Super Bowl halftime show.
Elaine Quijano reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nearly two weeks after the revealing Super Bowl halftime show aired on national TV, lawmakers sent broadcasters a clear message of their own. REP. HEATHER WILSON (R), NEW MEXICO: You knew what you were doing. You knew what kind of entertain entertainment you're selling. And you wanted us all to be abuzz here in this room and on the playground and my kids' school because it improved your ratings. It improves your market share. And it lines your pockets.
QUIJANO: But Mel Karmazin, the head of CBS parent company Viacom, told members of the House Commerce Subcommittee he and other network executives did not know what was going to take place ahead of time.
MEL KARMAZIN, PRESIDENT, VIACOM: Everyone at Viacom and everyone at CBS and everyone at MTV was shocked and appalled and embarrassed by what transpired.
QUIJANO: Karmazin also apologized, as did NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue.
PAUL TAGLIABUE, NFL COMMISSIONER: Because due to my own ineptitude and the ineptitude of others, the super performances of our athletes have been totally lost in the wilderness of Hollywood and musical entertainment.
QUIJANO: Now, as lawmakers decide how to prevent such displays in the future, on the table are a host of possibilities, one a House bill to raise the maximum fine for an indecency violation from $27,500 to 10 times that amount, $275,000.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: But some lawmakers say broadcast executives could simply accept those fines as the cost of doing business. And other lawmakers are suggesting tougher penalties, including forfeiting licenses or advertising profits -- Lou.
DOBBS: Elaine, thank you.
Coming right up here, disturbing questions about the shooting of an unarmed black man in a small Southern city. We'll have a live report. I'll be talking with the mayor of Columbus, Georgia.
Also tonight, in "Face-Off," the growing controversy over the role of assimilation, as our country embraces immigration. What has happened to America's melting pot? What should happen? Two very different views coming up.
And a very different view on gay marriage. Today, a matter of debate for Massachusetts lawmakers -- we'll have that story, a great deal more, still ahead here.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A powerful, emotional debate in Massachusetts tonight over the issue of gay marriage, lawmakers considering an amendment to the state constitution that would restrict marriage to heterosexuals. The debate follows a ruling by that state's Supreme Court in favor of same-sex marriage.
David Mattingly reports from Boston -- David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, there are 199 members of the Massachusetts state legislature. So far, only a small handful of them, relatively, have had a chance to go to the podium and have their say on this issue tonight, this as they try to craft an amendment to their state constitution defining marriage as between one man and one woman, effectively prohibiting gay marriage in the state of Massachusetts.
But all day long today, for the thousands of people who have been here outside and inside the State Building, it has been their opportunity to express their opinion. And, at times, they have done so quite loudly on both sides of the issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The issue is, everybody has to pay the same taxes. There's no reason that we shouldn't have the right to marry. I mean, it's a basic human right to marry. It's about love. We're all living in the same state and the same country. We should have the absolute equal rights.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Certain people have gotten together, thousands of us. We had the three rallies. We had over 2,000 people go to three rallies organized by me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: We'll take you back to some live pictures right now.
Lawmakers tonight are leaning towards some version of a compromise that would prohibit gay marriage, but, at the same time, provide equal protection under the law, two same-sex couples getting together in civil unions. That is similar to what is now on the books in Vermont. And, of course, everyone here very mindful that many states are now watching them. As many as a dozen states are now planning their own constitutional amendments to ban gay marriages -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, it's fairly clear at this point, no matter what the outcome of tonight's debate, there's going to be legal confrontation, if not chaos, in Massachusetts for some time.
MATTINGLY: That is true. But it is going to take some time for this to actually get approved. It has to be approved in this session by the legislature. Then, they have to approve it a second time in the next two-year session before it even goes to the voters at the earliest point in 2006.
Now, consider that the court has already said that it is legal for gays to get married in the state of Massachusetts beginning in May. There's going to be gay marriages occurring in that two-year period. They also have to figure out what they will do in terms of reclassifying those marriages that do occur.
DOBBS: Thank you, David.
Coming up here next, accusations of racial profiling in a shooting in Georgia, an unarmed black man killed by a sheriff's deputy. We'll have a live report. I'll be talking with the mayor of Columbus, Georgia.
Also, in "Face-Off" tonight, at least 10 million illegal aliens have crossed our borders. Some say they haven't done enough to assimilate into our society. We'll be hearing both sides of that debate.
And "Made in America." One American company has stayed in business for more than 80 years and managed to keep all of its production and all its jobs in this country.
We'll have that story and a great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Troubling questions about a fatal shooting in Georgia that could be a case of racial profiling or a tragic mistake.
A sheriff's deputy shot and killed an unarmed African-American man in Columbus, Georgia, two months ago. So far, federal and state investigators haven't determined whether the shooting was accidental, justifiable, or possibly a criminal act.
Eric Philips reports from Columbus, Georgia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHERYL WALKER, WIDOW: This has been something that has changed my life forever and it has changed my family and my daughter's life forever.
ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On December 10, Cheryl Walker's husband, Kenneth, was killed by a Muscogee County, Georgia, sheriff's deputy. It happened after officers stopped the SUV Walker and three of his friends were riding in.
RALPH JOHNSON, MUSCOGEE COUNTY SHERIFF: As the occupants of the Yukon were being removed from the vehicle, Kenneth Walker was shot by Deputy David Glisson at approximately 8:58 p.m. The reason that Mr. Walker was shot still remains under investigation.
WARREN BEAULAH, STOPPED BY DEPUTIES: I will never, ever forget that December 10.
ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Warren Beaulah, the driver of the car, says the men were just riding around, reminiscing.
But the evening took an unexpected turn after the four men came to an apartment in this complex. Police had that apartment under surveillance for drug activity.
Authorities say an informant told them the Yukon looked like one being driven by armed drug dealers from Miami. They stopped the car shortly after it left the complex and pulled the men out.
BEAULAH: I felt a barrel of the gun in the back of my neck. And at that particular time I heard a gunshot.
PHILIPS: Thirty-nine-year-old Kenneth Walker had been shot in the head. The other three men were questioned and released without charge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we want?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!
PHILIPS: Some Columbus area residents want Deputy Glisson fired and indicted. They also want to see the videotape of the traffic stop. Authorities have refused to release it, citing ongoing investigation.
The attorney for the other men in the SUV said there's another reason.
DWAYNE BROWN, ATTORNEY: It's because it corroborates and substantiates what my clients have said from day one. That they were unjustifiably stopped. They were treated wrong because of their race.
PHILIPS: Sheriff Johnson says there is no problem of racism in his department.
JOHNSON: This was not a racially profile random traffic stop.
PHILIPS: the family believes the shooting was racially motivated. They're hoping the death will lead to improved race relations.
EMILY WALKER, SON KILLED: I feel like this will be a change for Columbus, and maybe Kenny was the chosen one.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILIPS: During a city council meeting yesterday, the president of the local NAACP inquired about the establishment of a citizen's review board to look at allegations of police misconduct and abuse.
Council members said they are researching that possibility.
Meanwhile, the Georgia Bureau of Investigations and the FBI have given no indication as to when they will complete their investigations into this shooting -- Lou.
DOBBS: Eric, thank you very much. Eric Philips reporting from Columbus, Georgia.
I'm joined now by the mayor of Columbus, Robert Poydasheff. The mayor says he is committed to seeing this investigation through to its conclusion and to ensure the citizens of Columbus that justice is done.
Mr. Mayor, good to have you with us.
ROBERT POYDASHEFF, MAYOR OF COLUMBUS: Thank you, Mr. Dobbs. It's a pleasure being on your show.
Incidentally we're not a small Southern city, we're an international mid-size city comparable to many cities in the United States. Just wanted to clarify that, sir.
DOBBS: Well, Mr. Mayor, I appreciate that. I've had the opportunity to be in Columbus, Georgia, a few times in my life, and it's a lovely city.
POYDASHEFF: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: It is an ugly, ugly incident that we're talking about, however, here tonight.
POYDASHEFF: Yes, it is. Yes, it is.
DOBBS: The fact that a man was shot by a sheriff's deputy, and there's a videotape of it, that an investigation is underway by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
And now more than two months later your citizens and indeed the rest of us in this country don't know why that shooting took place.
How is that affecting the city? What is the mood of the folks in Columbus, Georgia?
POYDASHEFF: All of the people in the city of Columbus are agitated, and we are grieving. We're sorry that this tragic incident occurred, and we pray that no such incident will ever occur again.
In the meantime, I've been counseling patience. I understand that the frustration can lead to various actions.
We're committed to seeing this thing through. This case is being investigated incidentally by three organizations.
The sheriff is conducting his own internal investigation. He does not report to me, the constitutional officer.
The GBI is conducting their investigation. It's going to be an impartial, no holds barred, let the chips fall where they may. And the Federal Bureau of Investigation is also conducting an independent investigation.
Now, when these investigations are going to be completed, I don't know. DOBBS: You don't know. The citizens of Columbus don't know. Has the Georgia Bureau of Investigation which, as I understand it, has primary responsibility in this investigation, along with the FBI, have they given you any indication as to when the citizens of Columbus can have an answer?
POYDASHEFF: Well, they have indicated that it will be as quickly as they can make it. I can't give you any time line. And I would prefer that patience be counseled and that the process take its course.
And maybe I'm speaking as an attorney, having handled a lot of investigations. Sometimes when you do something quickly it's slovenly and incomplete.
And I'm pleased that the GBI and the Federal Bureau of Investigation -- they're very competent, very professional organizations -- are going to do a thorough job.
DOBBS: Sheriff Johnson's department, according to what our researchers have told me, does not have a history of shooting incidents in that department. The officer himself involved in the shooting did -- has never been involved in a shooting incident before. Is that correct?
POYDASHEFF: That is my understanding, absolutely. As a matter of fact, I can remember, having retired from the Army, this is the first such incident that I can remember since 1979. I have two members of the city council, council McDaniel and Pugh, who will verify that.
It's a tragedy. It's a tragedy. We don't want it to happen again.
DOBBS: The fact that the Georgia Bureau of Investigation is not giving you a time line, the people of Columbus, Mr. Mayor -- you are familiar with these investigations.
This is an inordinate amount of time, particularly where you have physical evidence like a videotape, for there to be a response. At what point does your patience run out, Mr. Mayor?
POYDASHEFF: Well, first of all, the people must understand that the GBI doesn't report to me. I'm the public safety director, also, for the police department that does report to the mayor.
The sheriff is a constitutional officer, and the GBI doesn't report to him. Their investigation, when it's completed will be given off to the district attorney under Georgia law. And then he will decide what's going to happen.
Now you ask whether it's an inordinate amount of time. Two months, in my history, as the former prosecutor in the military and very much involved in the cover-ups and investigations can run on and on and on. But this one isn't going to.
And again, I can only say that we have the independent investigations going on. And they're going to be thorough.
DOBBS: Mayor Poydasheff, we thank you very much for being with us.
POYDASHEFF: Thank you, sir. Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next, Martha Stewart's co-defendant takes the stand as the defense calls for a mistrial. We'll have a live report for you from the courthouse in lower Manhattan.
And embracing America, its culture, its society and sharing in its pride. Some say assimilation in this country is no longer working. Some say immigrants no longer want to assimilate.
We'll be hearing from two sides of this debate in tonight's edition of "Face Off." Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: It's been one month since President Bush unveiled his controversial immigration policy, a plan that would allow millions of illegal aliens to legally remain in this country.
Absent from the president's plan however, is a program to better assimilate illegal aliens and immigrants, if that is ultimately the decision of our lawmakers, into American society.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's "Face Off." And joining me, John Fonte is a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute who says assimilation is not working and that immigrants must do more than learn English. They need to become loyal, patriotic Americans.
And Tamar Jacoby, however, says assimilation is working. And she is the author of "Reinventing the Melting Pot."
And to both of you, welcome.
Tamar, let me ask you. As we look at this society, whether it be in New York City, Los Angeles, in the Midwest, there is always a certain amount of politics going on, some places more robustly and vigorously than others.
That doesn't look like assimilation to many people.
TAMAR JACOBY, AUTHOR, "REINVENTING THE MELTING POST: Identity politics isn't really assimilation. But identity politics is a thin -- is popular in the thin layer at the top of the immigrant social pyramid.
Most immigrants want to become Americans. They understand what's great about America, and they want to become Americans.
DOBBS: John, your thoughts?
JOHN FONTE, SENIOR FELLOW, THE HUDSON INSTITUTE: Well, I would say first of all, America is the greatest immigration country in the history of the world because we have had assimilation, because we have had patriotic assimilation. And I think Tamar and I share that goal.
But I think we have to look at empirical evidence, and some of the evidence is from the Pugh Hispanic survey of -- that was taken after 9/11. It was taken six or seven months after 9/11.
And the question was how do you identify yourself? What's your primary identification? These are two -- American citizens. They're all American citizens. They are Latinos who are American citizens.
And only 33 percent consider themselves Americans first. And this is six months after the emotion of 9/11. And these are people who raised their arm and swore an oath of allegiance "I absolutely entirely announce all allegiance" and gone through the moving ceremony.
And yet only one-third identified themselves primarily as Americans. So I think if we look at some of these empirical studies, there are problems.
JACOBY: I don't know how that question was asked and what the context was, but that's just not my experience at all.
If you traveled in Mexican-American Hispanic neighborhoods after 9/11, there were more flags flying on the houses in those neighborhoods than there were almost anywhere else. Mexican-Americans are very patriotic.
FONTE: I agree with you. I think they are very patriotic in many cases. I'm saying this was empirical evidence that was presented in the Pugh, which you're familiar with. The Pugh Hispanic study said that only one-third of the people consider themselves Americans first.
JACOBY: You know, people are learning English faster than ever before. And most groups are moving up the economic ladder. People do become citizens.
I don't think the evidence, you know, that's what -- you're talking about one question. I don't think the evidence supports your skepticism. I...
FONTE: I agree with you about people learning English. There are people learning English faster, and they are assimilating somewhat economically.
But I don't think linguistic assimilation, simply learning English or making money is really enough. Muhammad Atta, who was the leader of the 9/11 terrorists, spoke English very well.
JACOBY: Well, I agree with you learning English isn't enough. And I also agree with you that we have to learn to talk to today's immigrants differently in order to welcome them to America and persuade them to become Americans.
DOBBS: Let's get to issues in -- since John, you focused on Latinos, Hispanics in this society, legal immigrants. We are seeing a explosion of language, Spanish language television, radio, and media. We -- you can drive through any part of New York. You will see Chinese language; you will see Korean; you will see any number of languages.
This is something that you didn't see.
JACOBY: Newcomers -- Newcomers still speak the language that they brought with them. Adults often continue to speak the language. Hispanic, the second generation of Hispanics, anyone who grows up here, they universally become proficient in English.
By the third generation the number is two thirds speak English only.
FONTE: I agree with what Tamar was saying about people learning as time goes on. But the large influx of new immigrants coming at the same time, that means that there are always large numbers of people not speaking English. But...
JACOBY: That's always been true in our history. It doesn't pose the kind of problem I think people are afraid of.
FONTE: But we have had different pauses at different times. Now we've had almost perpetual immigration for a very long time.
DOBBS: We have perpetual immigration. It appears that we're going to have a considerable contest on Capitol Hill as to what shape that immigration will take and what our policies going forward will be.
The issue of assimilation -- we're watching Europe grapple with this now. The French National Assembly yesterday voted by an overwhelming margin to ban headscarves and other religious symbols, but it was fully directed at the unassimilated population Muslim population of France.
Is this country doing enough? In terms of its relationship with immigrants, are we doing enough? In examining dual citizenship, there was a time that was impossible. No one would even think of permitting such a thing, whether it be with the E.U., in Asia, or this hemisphere.
JACOBY: I'd like to see us reaching out in a more positive way. Banning a headscarf is only going to create a backlash. People are going to that headscarf more tightly.
DOBBS: I should clarify. I think that's -- ban is the backlash to what was perceived.
JACOBY: But you see, I think what we should be doing is offering a positive vision of what it means to be an American.
We should be asking people to become citizens. We are saying what you appreciate about this country. The fact that you don't have to pay off the police and that your kids do have better opportunity. That's being American.
We want you to embrace that. And not scolding them and saying you have to leave behind what you came from. Because that only...
DOBBS: That's a whole different issue.
FONTE: Lou, I agree with...
DOBBS: Yes.
FONTE: ... what Tamar is saying. Those sentiments, obviously, I completely agree with.
DOBBS: Right.
FONTE: However, she didn't answer the question of dual citizenship...
DOBBS: Right.
FONTE: ... which is a problem. There's something -- there's a lot we can do about this.
Recently there was a person in -- a man in Los Angeles who came here as an illegal alien. He got citizenship. He became an American citizenship. He took an oath to absolutely entirely renounce all allegiance to a foreign power.
And then he's just been elected to the Mexican Congress. So -- when he was elected to the Mexican Congress he took an oath of loyalty to Mexico.
This is a problem. Obviously a big assimilation problem.
DOBBS: Well, you've got to admire the man's energy and ambition.
But what are we going to do? Should there be dual citizenships?
JACOBY: The Supreme Court -- The Supreme Court decided in the '60s that there's nothing we can do about other countries offering dual citizenship.
FONTE: That's not completely true.
JACOBY: But what we...
FONTE: Go ahead and finish your point, and I'll answer.
JACOBY: My point is that it would be counter productive to say to people you can't be an American citizen if you hold onto your old citizenship. Then we'd have a situation like the Turks in Germany.
DOBBS: Tamar, the Turks in Germany, who are going to probably have, based on what we see happening, more rights to exhibit their Muslim dress than the Turks themselves in Turkey.
JACOBY: Right.
DOBBS: Tamar, thank you very much.
John, thank you.
We're going to ask you both back. As usual, I've managed to run us out of time. We thank you both for being with us.
Coming up next, trying to find a solution to this nation's trade situation. Some would call it a crisis. I'll be talking with Eamonn Fingleton. He says that the mainstream economic thinking is first orthodoxy. It's wrong-headed, and it's destroying American prosperity.
And tonight, "Made in America," the story of a cosmetics company refusing to abandon its loyal American employees. We'll have their story and a great deal more still ahead. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The market today. Stocks rallied on Wall Street. The Dow Jones industrials are now at the highest level in two and a half years. The Dow up 123 points, the NASDAQ up 14.33. The S&P up more than 12 points.
More testimony damaging to the defense today in the Martha Stewart trial. Mary Snow is at the federal courthouse here in Manhattan and has the day's developments.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, some contradictions today in what Martha Stewart and her former stockbroker and now co-defendant Peter Bacanovic told government investigators in early 2002 following Stewart's sale of ImClone stock.
For the very first time, jurors heard the voice of Peter Bacanovic. They listened to an audiotape of a government interview with Bacanovic.
And one inconsistency, for example, Bacanovic told investigators that he did not tell Martha Stewart that the SEC was talking to Merrill Lynch. Stewart's version was different.
An FBI agent testified Stewart told her that Bacanovic did tell him that -- tell her, that is, that the SEC was talking to Merrill Lynch.
Stewart's government investigations were not recorded, so there was no audiotape of that. The government really is trying to do prove the charge of making false statements. The trial resumes on Friday -- Lou.
DOBBS: On balance, more damaging to Bacanovic, the broker, or more damaging to the defense of Martha Stewart?
SNOW: I think damaging to both, Lou, but probably more damaging to Peter Bacanovic. DOBBS: Mary, thank you very much for making the snap assessment. I apologize for asking you to do so. Thanks a lot.
In "Made in America" tonight, a cosmetics company built on hard work, loyalty and even patriotism.
Merle Norman founded her company 83 years ago. Now, her heirs proudly carry on the company traditions, including "made in America."
Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Merle Norman's 600 employees average 15 years with the cosmetic company. Several have worked more than 40. Thirty-seven percent have never missed a day of work or even been late. Depending on seniority, that can earn yearly bonuses from a new bike to a trip anywhere in the world.
Here loyalty goes both ways.
JAKE NETHERCUTT, VICE CHAIR, MERLE NORMAN: We're not about to move to Mexico or something like that and abandon these loyal employees. We also like to have control of quality, inventory, et cetera.
WIAN: Merle Norman sells through 1,800 franchised studios, where a woman can get her makeup done and buy products.
NETHERCUTT: Our biggest sales area is really the Deep South. And the Southern belle is alive and well and wears a lot of makeup.
WIAN: But even in L.A., made in America sells.
GINA JACOBY, MERLE NORMAN FRANCHISEE: Especially in the last few years they really like to know that it's made here in the U.S. They've heard stories about the corporation and how, you know, the product quality is as good as it was, you know, 75 years ago. So it means a lot to them.
WIAN (on camera): Merle Norman started not far from here in Santa Monica, California, in 1931. The cosmetic industry has changed a lot since then, but much about the company remains the same.
(voice-over) Many of the machines on the factory floor date to the 1950s. Everyone, including top executives, lunches at the company cafeteria, the cost 25 cents.
To encourage perfect attendance, factory employees work four ten- hour days. And there's a dentist's office on site.
Merle Norman does carry one product made in Germany, an eye pencil line. That's a tiny fraction of its $100 million annual sales. But Merle Norman refuses to follow competitors who employ cheap foreign labor.
J.B. NETHERCUTT, CHAIRMAN, MERLE NORMAN: It's a company principle.
WIAN: Ninety-one-year-old J.B. Nethercutt is Merle Norman's nephew. He still comes to work once a week with a fierce patriotism predating 9/11 by six decades.
J.B. NETHERCUTT: I will never forget December 7.
WIAN: As long as he's alive, J.B. says Merle Norman won't be sending jobs out of the United States.
Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: A record number of jobs are going out of this country. Our trade deficit with the rest of the world continues to worsen, and my guest now says America's trade situation is simply a disaster.
Eamonn Fingleton, author of "Unsustainable: How Economic Dogma is Destroying American Prosperity."
Good to have you here.
EAMONN FINGLETON, AUTHOR, "UNSUSTAINABLE": Thank you.
DOBBS: What specific dogma is undermining our thinking and our performance?
FINGLETON: The dogma of free trade. People are not looking at the other side of the trade equation. There are many, many downsides to this trade situation.
DOBBS: A half trillion dollar deficit. Three trillion in the aggregate in IOU's held by foreigners against U.S. assets. Where are we headed?
FINGLETON: Basically, the issue is the ownership of America. As this goes on, more and more of America is owned by foreigners.
At a certain point this will be a major, major political issue, as it has been in other countries that have had foreign ownership to a higher extent than is tolerable.
DOBBS: Why in the world, Democrats and Republicans alike, is there this adherence to this sort of mindless mantra that rises almost to a religious belief that the market is the answer? Does it -- is it just a way to curtail thinking and move on?
FINGLETON: I think partly it's ideology and partly there's a lot of propaganda. I think that the trade lobby in Washington is much stronger than people realize. It subsidizes think tanks. It subsidizes academics, the right people with the right views.
DOBBS: Who is the trade lobby?
FINGLETON: Well, there are many trade lobbies, but they make common cause a lot: the Japan lobby, the German lobby. There are people acting on behalf of China, very often corporate Americans acting on behalf of China. But they all make common cause in promoting this dogma.
DOBBS: And what is the solution? Only now are we beginning to see some concern surfacing in Congress and none at all in this White House about the impact of free trade, so called.
FINGLETON: Well, I think that first of all, the media should be focusing on the total story, not just the benefits to the consumer. The benefits to the consumer are certainly there, but there is the other side, which, of course is jobs and ultimately the sale of American assets to foreigners.
DOBBS: Well, you know, those are jobs that Americans don't want. It's sort of beneath us to manufacture things, to build our own die and tool, to actually manufacture the components of manufacturing.
FINGLETON: I couldn't disagree more with that point of view, which, of course, you fully understand, is wrong.
Basically, manufacturing at the level we're talking about, advanced manufacturing for an advanced nation, is extremely capital intensive, extremely no-know intensive that creates very high value- added jobs.
And it creates exports. It creates a strong nation.
DOBBS: And we're exporting it all right now.
Eamonn Fingleton, thank you for being with us.
FINGLETON: My pleasure.
DOBBS: We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll: four percent of you agree with the Bush administration that outsourcing jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is good for the economy. I'm proud to say 96 percent of you do not.
That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us.
Tomorrow, I'll be joined by Congressman Jerrod Brown, who says the president's support for the exporting of America is outrageous.
Also tomorrow, James Glassman, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, who says I'm outrageous. He disagrees with me entirely on the issue of exporting American jobs. We'll debate tomorrow. Please join us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. Anderson Cooper is next.
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Outsourcing>
Aired February 11, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight: American companies shipping hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas. We call it exporting America. The White House calls it good for America. Congress wants it stopped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lou Dobbs has a Web site that lists all of the businesses in this country that are currently outsourcing jobs to other countries.
The White House on the defensive tonight over jobs, Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, and the president's military service. My guest tonight is the chairman of the Republican National Committee, Ed Gillespie.
What happened in Georgia? A sheriff's deputy in Columbus shot and killed an unarmed African-American man. It's been more than two months since his death. Investigators still are not saying what happened. We'll have a special report.
And in "Face-Off" tonight, assimilation, two very different views of what is one of the biggest challenges facing this country, how to assimilate culturally distinct immigrants into our society.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, February 11. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, the White House is on the defensive, even before the Democratic Party has settled on a presidential nominee. Despite a firestorm of criticism, the administration today maintained its claim that the outsourcing of American jobs to cheap overseas labor market is good for the economy. As for lawmakers on Capitol Hill, both Democratic and Republican, they blasted the White House. And one Republican lawmaker tonight is calling for the president's chief economic adviser to resign.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On Capitol Hill, a new wave of anger at the Bush White House for its claim that outsourcing of jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is actually good for the American economy.
SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: The economic report of the president signed by the president says that the export of American jobs is just fine, doesn't matter, no problem. In fact, it's a good thing. He is flat-out, dead wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks to this president, America now has a new No. 1 export, jobs.
VILES: Those Senate Democrats wrote to the president, asking him to repudiate those comments supporting outsourcing. Senator Hillary Clinton introduced legislation that would put the Senate on record opposing the outsourcing of American jobs.
And, in the House, Republican Don Manzullo of Illinois called for the resignation of the man who set outsourcing is a -- quote -- "good thing," Gregory Mankiw, who chairs the White House Council of Economic Advisers.
REP. DON MANZULLO (R), ILLINOIS: Mankiw is talking something differently than what the president believes and what the president is doing. So, you can't have an inconsistency in sending that type of a message out to the people that are losing their jobs. So the best thing is for Mankiw to step aside very quietly and for -- to have one less economist give a theory as to why we don't have jobs in America.
VILES: And in a House hearing, Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan was peppered with unusually aggressive questions and comments on outsourcing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, to add insult to injury, Mr. Chairman, we have this outsourcing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now that we have exported our manufacturing jobs, now that we are exporting our high-tech jobs and our service jobs, what areas are left for us to devote our productivity toward?
VILES: Greenspan, who is known for his political skills, generally dodged questions on outsourcing, saying it's the surge in productivity, not outsourcing, that is hurting job growth.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: And the White House today defended Mankiw, saying the calls for his resignation is -- quote -- "laughable," because the economic team he leads is -- quote -- "doing a great job."
Lou, this is not just one aide to the president. The president signed this document and it's a very strong statement supporting outsourcing.
DOBBS: And Scott McClellan is just simply wrong. It's not laughable, because a lot of critics on Capitol Hill are certainly not laughing, including the speaker of the House.
Pete, thank you very much. The speaker of the House of Representatives doesn't think the administration's top economist is doing a great job at all. In fact, late today, Dennis Hastert blasted Gregory Mankiw's views on outsourcing American jobs and released a statement saying, quote -- "I understand that Mr. Mankiw is a brilliant economic theorist, but his theory fails a basic test of real economics. An economy suffers when jobs disappear."
By the way, we've invited Gregory Mankiw, the chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, to join us for the last two nights here to talk about the issue of outsourcing. He has declined. Tonight, we want to assure him, the invitation remains open.
Outrage over the White House's support of outsourcing American jobs to cheap overseas labor market is also coming from the Democratic presidential candidates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They said that shipping jobs, American jobs, overseas is good for America.
(BOOING)
KERRY: And I -- I think you've answered the challenge. Let them tell that to a 45-year-old worker with three kids who doesn't have a job, who has seen the factory loss, who has seen their job gone, and who has nowhere to turn.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are people in America, in one America, who are making a fortune by shipping the jobs of the other America someplace else.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senators Kerry and Edwards making those comments, as they finished in first and second place, respectively, in the Tennessee and Virginia primaries.
The wins give Senator Kerry now 516 delegates, nearly a quarter of those needed to win the Democratic presidential nomination. Former Vermont Governor Howard Dean is second, with 182 delegates. Today, he went on the attack against Senator Kerry. Dean called him part of -- quote -- "the corrupt political culture of Washington" -- end quote -- and the lesser of two evils, as compared to President Bush. A spokesman for Senator Kerry called the Dean attack an act of desperation.
And General Wesley Clark today ended his campaign, after finishing in third place in both primaries. General Clark promised to continue campaigning for Democratic causes during the election.
Joining me now from Washington for the Republican view of the Democratic primary contest and the broader assault against President Bush and the White House is the chairman of the Republican National Committee, Ed Gillespie.
Good to have you with us.
ED GILLESPIE, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Good to be with you, Lou. Thanks for having me on.
DOBBS: This is a remarkable day, as the White House is under assault from several quarters, on the president's military service some 30 years ago as a member of the National Guard, on the issues of weapons of mass destruction, Iraq intelligence leading up -- intelligence on Iraq leading up to the war, on outsourcing.
This White House, to this point, has been considered pretty savvy, Ed. They don't look too savvy.
GILLESPIE: Well, look, Lou, the fact is that when you have people making charges against the president that are completely unfounded when you look at the facts -- for example, for the Clark campaign to say that the president is a deserter, desertion is a crime punishable by death in the military for military desertion.
For the chairman of the Democratic Party to say the president was AWOL, which is a felony punishable by imprisonment, and they are just flat wrong, as was made clear again yesterday, when the pay stubs were produced. The president served honorably in the National Guard. National Guard service is honorable. It is military service.
And the fact is that you can't just make things up. You know, these Democrats of entitled to their own opinion. Terry McAuliffe is entitled to his own opinion. But he is not entitled to his own facts. And the fact is that President Bush did serve honorably, as he had said. And it's wrong to suggest otherwise.
When it comes to the issue of the jobs, look, we have got to create more jobs in our economy. And the president's policies are resulting in that. We saw 113,000 jobs added to payroll last month, a growth rate of 4 percent in the last quarter, 8.2 percent in the quarter before that. We're seeing gains in the stock market, which are pumping up our 401(k) and college funds and retirement funds.
And the policies that Senator Kerry and other Democrats advocate of raising taxes on our economy are going to reverse those gains and are going to hinder job creation. And, in fact, having a high tax economy is only going to result in more jobs going overseas. And that's a mistake in policy. And the president is right and they are wrong. So we welcome this debate.
DOBBS: Well, the debate now is focused on the outsourcing of those jobs, the exporting of those jobs, to cheap overseas labor markets. My goodness, the chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers endorsing the idea -- the document has the president's signature on it, Ed. Dennis Hastert, the speaker of the House, criticizing him, Congressman Manzullo calling for his resignation.
The Democratic candidates, one of whom, most likely, Senator Kerry, to represent the Democratic Party, attacking the president on these issues. What in the world is going on here?
GILLESPIE: Well, Lou, I haven't seen this report. I have seen the news accounts of it. And all I know is this, that, if we're going to create jobs in this economy, the president's six-point plan for job creation is the way to do it.
He's vigorously out there every day working to make sure every American who wants a job can find a job. And his policies are the ones that are going to continue to foster economic recovery in this country. And raising taxes and increasing regulation and allowing for these lawsuits that drive up costs of goods and services and close down doctor's offices and to engage in the kinds of policies or to support the kind of policies that the Democrats propose are going to result in more job loss, not more job creation. I guarantee it.
DOBBS: Well, Ed, let me ask you, as the chairman of the RNC, the document signed by the president, written by the president's chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers, saying -- quote, unquote -- "The basic economic forces behind the transactions are the same," that is, exporting U.S. jobs to overseas cheap labor markets. They are the same.
"When a good or service is provided more cheaply abroad, it makes sense to import it than to provide it domestically." We have this issue. We have the issue of free trade. We have a half-trillion dollar current account deficit. These facts are representative of pain in middle America. Hardworking men and women in this country are getting hurt. What does the Republican National Committee want to say about that?
GILLESPIE: Well, what I want to say is -- and I'm not an economist. I was lucky to get my way out of college, let alone go to any kind of graduate school.
But I do understand the notion of competitive advantage. And, look, that's fine as long as we are creating high-paying jobs in our economy. And the fact is that we are seeing now economic growth that is going to create -- and we are seeing the creation of high-paying jobs in our economy.
That's the answer, to make sure that we're doing all we can to foster this economic growth, to make sure that every American who wants a job can have a job, and, at the same time, that we're doing what we need to do to keep the markets up and rising, as we have seen for the first time since 1999, because that results in -- look, Lou, I have got three children. We put our money into a college fund every month. And it's been going up as a result of the president's policies.
It's not the 85 bucks a month we put in there every month. It's the fact that the market has grown as a result of the dividend tax relief, the capital gains tax relief, the lower rates in general, and the spurred investment that's resulted from those policies. Reversing those policies would be a critical mistake. It would not benefit middle America at all. In fact, it would punish middle Americans.
DOBBS: Ed Gillespie, we thank you very much for being with us.
GILLESPIE: Thank you, Lou. Appreciate it.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question, do you agree with the Bush administration that outsourcing jobs to cheap overseas labor market is good for the American economy, yes or no? Please cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have results for you later here in the broadcast.
For his part, President Bush today focused on weapons of mass destruction. In a speech at the National Defense University in Washington, President Bush today called for international action to limit the number of countries allowed to produce nuclear fuel. The president said terrorists and terrorist states are in a race for weapons of mass murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The deadly technology and expertise on the market, there's the terrible possibility that terrorist groups could obtain the ultimate weapons they desire most.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: After the White House released the president's payroll records on his National Guard service 30 years ago, the president remains the focus of Democratic attacks. That military service provoked an extraordinary exchange on Capitol Hill today.
The exchange began when Democratic Congressman Sherrod Brown raised the controversy with Secretary of State Colin Powell during a hearing of the House International Relations Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: We count on you. The president may have been AWOL. The vice president said he had other priorities during Vietnam. Other high administrative officials never served. You understand war. We absolutely count on you. And I think a lot of us wonder what happened between that post-interview and your statement the next day, when you said the president made the right decision.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: First of all, Mr. Brown, I won't dignify your comments about the president, because you don't know what you're talking about.
Secondly, let me get to the points that you were raising.
BROWN: I'm sorry. I don't know what you mean, Mr. Secretary.
POWELL: You made reference to the president...
BROWN: Said he may been AWOL.
POWELL: Mr. Brown, let's not go there. Let's just not go there. Let's not go there in this hearing.
If you want to have a political fight with -- on this matter that is very controversial and I think is being dealt with by the White House, fine, but let's not go there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Secretary of State Powell.
Turning to Iraq, it was another bloody day. Insurgents set off a huge car bomb outside a recruiting center for the Iraqi army in Baghdad. Nearly 50 people were killed. Dozens more were wounded, the second major attack against Iraqis in two days. Yesterday, insurgents killed 55 people, as they exploded a bomb next to a line of people waiting to apply for jobs in the Iraqi police force.
DOBBS: Still to come here, a sheriff's deputy shot and killed an unarmed man in Georgia more than two months ago. Investigators still have not said what happened. We'll have a live report for you. And we'll be talking with the mayor of Columbus, Georgia.
Big media may be about to become even bigger. Some say that's just what we need. Comcast says it's what it needs. And Comcast wants to take over Disney, lawmakers and regulators alarmed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Where, in your view, does this consolidation that we already seen to obscene degree in radio stop? Where is the end point here?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And outrage and regret on Capitol Hill today over the now infamous Super Bowl halftime show, a new-time low.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A stunning move today that would consolidate the power of this country's media conglomerates even further. Comcast, the nation's largest cable operator, launched a hostile takeover for Disney. It's a bill worth $66 billion. It would create the largest media company in the world.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Mickey Mouse meets Comcast, it's just the sort of nightmare media convergence that critics of media consolidation warned would happen under the new expanded ownership rules.
BRIAN ROBERTS, CEO, COMCAST: We think our company is ready for this rather large and dramatic next step.
TUCKER: And dramatic may actually be an understatement. The deal would potentially combine Comcast's 21.5 million cable homes, 16 cable companies that it owns in whole or part, and two professional sports teams, with Disney's ABC Television Network, various cable properties, including the ESPN family of networks, the Disney movie studio and film library and amusement parks.
Reaction came very quickly from Washington.
MCCAIN: Where's the end point here? Is it OK for Disney to be bought by Comcast? And then, why don't they buy somebody else? And then why not Mr. Murdoch buy somebody else? And then we have, as one of our colleagues is fond of saying, many voices in one ventriloquist.
TUCKER: While Wall Street analysts are saying they see very little in the way of regulatory problems, they may be underestimating the political obstacles.
JEFF CHESTER, CENTER FOR DIGITAL DEMOCRACY: There is going to be a rising protest against this merger. And we hope that there will be a bipartisan majority in Congress agreeing to restore the prohibition against cable and TV station mergers.
TUCKER: Apparently mindful of that political backlash, the chairman of the FCC was cautious in his reaction.
MICHAEL POWELL, FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION CHAIRMAN: I don't know if Comcast will get Disney or not. It's a hostile bid. If it does, a merger of that magnitude will unquestionably go through the finest filter at the commission, I can assure you, that it is possible.
TUCKER: Disney's board has yet to accept any bid. And if it does, the deal will not only have to pass through the FCC, but through antitrust regulators as well.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Whatever happens with this takeover bid, Lou, in the words of one analyst, this promises to be the best entertainment that Disney has been a part of in some time -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much.
The chairman of the FCC, Michael Powell, told lawmakers today, the incident was a new low for prime-time television. He's referring to the Super Bowl halftime show.
Elaine Quijano reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nearly two weeks after the revealing Super Bowl halftime show aired on national TV, lawmakers sent broadcasters a clear message of their own. REP. HEATHER WILSON (R), NEW MEXICO: You knew what you were doing. You knew what kind of entertain entertainment you're selling. And you wanted us all to be abuzz here in this room and on the playground and my kids' school because it improved your ratings. It improves your market share. And it lines your pockets.
QUIJANO: But Mel Karmazin, the head of CBS parent company Viacom, told members of the House Commerce Subcommittee he and other network executives did not know what was going to take place ahead of time.
MEL KARMAZIN, PRESIDENT, VIACOM: Everyone at Viacom and everyone at CBS and everyone at MTV was shocked and appalled and embarrassed by what transpired.
QUIJANO: Karmazin also apologized, as did NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue.
PAUL TAGLIABUE, NFL COMMISSIONER: Because due to my own ineptitude and the ineptitude of others, the super performances of our athletes have been totally lost in the wilderness of Hollywood and musical entertainment.
QUIJANO: Now, as lawmakers decide how to prevent such displays in the future, on the table are a host of possibilities, one a House bill to raise the maximum fine for an indecency violation from $27,500 to 10 times that amount, $275,000.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: But some lawmakers say broadcast executives could simply accept those fines as the cost of doing business. And other lawmakers are suggesting tougher penalties, including forfeiting licenses or advertising profits -- Lou.
DOBBS: Elaine, thank you.
Coming right up here, disturbing questions about the shooting of an unarmed black man in a small Southern city. We'll have a live report. I'll be talking with the mayor of Columbus, Georgia.
Also tonight, in "Face-Off," the growing controversy over the role of assimilation, as our country embraces immigration. What has happened to America's melting pot? What should happen? Two very different views coming up.
And a very different view on gay marriage. Today, a matter of debate for Massachusetts lawmakers -- we'll have that story, a great deal more, still ahead here.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A powerful, emotional debate in Massachusetts tonight over the issue of gay marriage, lawmakers considering an amendment to the state constitution that would restrict marriage to heterosexuals. The debate follows a ruling by that state's Supreme Court in favor of same-sex marriage.
David Mattingly reports from Boston -- David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, there are 199 members of the Massachusetts state legislature. So far, only a small handful of them, relatively, have had a chance to go to the podium and have their say on this issue tonight, this as they try to craft an amendment to their state constitution defining marriage as between one man and one woman, effectively prohibiting gay marriage in the state of Massachusetts.
But all day long today, for the thousands of people who have been here outside and inside the State Building, it has been their opportunity to express their opinion. And, at times, they have done so quite loudly on both sides of the issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The issue is, everybody has to pay the same taxes. There's no reason that we shouldn't have the right to marry. I mean, it's a basic human right to marry. It's about love. We're all living in the same state and the same country. We should have the absolute equal rights.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Certain people have gotten together, thousands of us. We had the three rallies. We had over 2,000 people go to three rallies organized by me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: We'll take you back to some live pictures right now.
Lawmakers tonight are leaning towards some version of a compromise that would prohibit gay marriage, but, at the same time, provide equal protection under the law, two same-sex couples getting together in civil unions. That is similar to what is now on the books in Vermont. And, of course, everyone here very mindful that many states are now watching them. As many as a dozen states are now planning their own constitutional amendments to ban gay marriages -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, it's fairly clear at this point, no matter what the outcome of tonight's debate, there's going to be legal confrontation, if not chaos, in Massachusetts for some time.
MATTINGLY: That is true. But it is going to take some time for this to actually get approved. It has to be approved in this session by the legislature. Then, they have to approve it a second time in the next two-year session before it even goes to the voters at the earliest point in 2006.
Now, consider that the court has already said that it is legal for gays to get married in the state of Massachusetts beginning in May. There's going to be gay marriages occurring in that two-year period. They also have to figure out what they will do in terms of reclassifying those marriages that do occur.
DOBBS: Thank you, David.
Coming up here next, accusations of racial profiling in a shooting in Georgia, an unarmed black man killed by a sheriff's deputy. We'll have a live report. I'll be talking with the mayor of Columbus, Georgia.
Also, in "Face-Off" tonight, at least 10 million illegal aliens have crossed our borders. Some say they haven't done enough to assimilate into our society. We'll be hearing both sides of that debate.
And "Made in America." One American company has stayed in business for more than 80 years and managed to keep all of its production and all its jobs in this country.
We'll have that story and a great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Troubling questions about a fatal shooting in Georgia that could be a case of racial profiling or a tragic mistake.
A sheriff's deputy shot and killed an unarmed African-American man in Columbus, Georgia, two months ago. So far, federal and state investigators haven't determined whether the shooting was accidental, justifiable, or possibly a criminal act.
Eric Philips reports from Columbus, Georgia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHERYL WALKER, WIDOW: This has been something that has changed my life forever and it has changed my family and my daughter's life forever.
ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On December 10, Cheryl Walker's husband, Kenneth, was killed by a Muscogee County, Georgia, sheriff's deputy. It happened after officers stopped the SUV Walker and three of his friends were riding in.
RALPH JOHNSON, MUSCOGEE COUNTY SHERIFF: As the occupants of the Yukon were being removed from the vehicle, Kenneth Walker was shot by Deputy David Glisson at approximately 8:58 p.m. The reason that Mr. Walker was shot still remains under investigation.
WARREN BEAULAH, STOPPED BY DEPUTIES: I will never, ever forget that December 10.
ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Warren Beaulah, the driver of the car, says the men were just riding around, reminiscing.
But the evening took an unexpected turn after the four men came to an apartment in this complex. Police had that apartment under surveillance for drug activity.
Authorities say an informant told them the Yukon looked like one being driven by armed drug dealers from Miami. They stopped the car shortly after it left the complex and pulled the men out.
BEAULAH: I felt a barrel of the gun in the back of my neck. And at that particular time I heard a gunshot.
PHILIPS: Thirty-nine-year-old Kenneth Walker had been shot in the head. The other three men were questioned and released without charge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we want?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!
PHILIPS: Some Columbus area residents want Deputy Glisson fired and indicted. They also want to see the videotape of the traffic stop. Authorities have refused to release it, citing ongoing investigation.
The attorney for the other men in the SUV said there's another reason.
DWAYNE BROWN, ATTORNEY: It's because it corroborates and substantiates what my clients have said from day one. That they were unjustifiably stopped. They were treated wrong because of their race.
PHILIPS: Sheriff Johnson says there is no problem of racism in his department.
JOHNSON: This was not a racially profile random traffic stop.
PHILIPS: the family believes the shooting was racially motivated. They're hoping the death will lead to improved race relations.
EMILY WALKER, SON KILLED: I feel like this will be a change for Columbus, and maybe Kenny was the chosen one.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILIPS: During a city council meeting yesterday, the president of the local NAACP inquired about the establishment of a citizen's review board to look at allegations of police misconduct and abuse.
Council members said they are researching that possibility.
Meanwhile, the Georgia Bureau of Investigations and the FBI have given no indication as to when they will complete their investigations into this shooting -- Lou.
DOBBS: Eric, thank you very much. Eric Philips reporting from Columbus, Georgia.
I'm joined now by the mayor of Columbus, Robert Poydasheff. The mayor says he is committed to seeing this investigation through to its conclusion and to ensure the citizens of Columbus that justice is done.
Mr. Mayor, good to have you with us.
ROBERT POYDASHEFF, MAYOR OF COLUMBUS: Thank you, Mr. Dobbs. It's a pleasure being on your show.
Incidentally we're not a small Southern city, we're an international mid-size city comparable to many cities in the United States. Just wanted to clarify that, sir.
DOBBS: Well, Mr. Mayor, I appreciate that. I've had the opportunity to be in Columbus, Georgia, a few times in my life, and it's a lovely city.
POYDASHEFF: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: It is an ugly, ugly incident that we're talking about, however, here tonight.
POYDASHEFF: Yes, it is. Yes, it is.
DOBBS: The fact that a man was shot by a sheriff's deputy, and there's a videotape of it, that an investigation is underway by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
And now more than two months later your citizens and indeed the rest of us in this country don't know why that shooting took place.
How is that affecting the city? What is the mood of the folks in Columbus, Georgia?
POYDASHEFF: All of the people in the city of Columbus are agitated, and we are grieving. We're sorry that this tragic incident occurred, and we pray that no such incident will ever occur again.
In the meantime, I've been counseling patience. I understand that the frustration can lead to various actions.
We're committed to seeing this thing through. This case is being investigated incidentally by three organizations.
The sheriff is conducting his own internal investigation. He does not report to me, the constitutional officer.
The GBI is conducting their investigation. It's going to be an impartial, no holds barred, let the chips fall where they may. And the Federal Bureau of Investigation is also conducting an independent investigation.
Now, when these investigations are going to be completed, I don't know. DOBBS: You don't know. The citizens of Columbus don't know. Has the Georgia Bureau of Investigation which, as I understand it, has primary responsibility in this investigation, along with the FBI, have they given you any indication as to when the citizens of Columbus can have an answer?
POYDASHEFF: Well, they have indicated that it will be as quickly as they can make it. I can't give you any time line. And I would prefer that patience be counseled and that the process take its course.
And maybe I'm speaking as an attorney, having handled a lot of investigations. Sometimes when you do something quickly it's slovenly and incomplete.
And I'm pleased that the GBI and the Federal Bureau of Investigation -- they're very competent, very professional organizations -- are going to do a thorough job.
DOBBS: Sheriff Johnson's department, according to what our researchers have told me, does not have a history of shooting incidents in that department. The officer himself involved in the shooting did -- has never been involved in a shooting incident before. Is that correct?
POYDASHEFF: That is my understanding, absolutely. As a matter of fact, I can remember, having retired from the Army, this is the first such incident that I can remember since 1979. I have two members of the city council, council McDaniel and Pugh, who will verify that.
It's a tragedy. It's a tragedy. We don't want it to happen again.
DOBBS: The fact that the Georgia Bureau of Investigation is not giving you a time line, the people of Columbus, Mr. Mayor -- you are familiar with these investigations.
This is an inordinate amount of time, particularly where you have physical evidence like a videotape, for there to be a response. At what point does your patience run out, Mr. Mayor?
POYDASHEFF: Well, first of all, the people must understand that the GBI doesn't report to me. I'm the public safety director, also, for the police department that does report to the mayor.
The sheriff is a constitutional officer, and the GBI doesn't report to him. Their investigation, when it's completed will be given off to the district attorney under Georgia law. And then he will decide what's going to happen.
Now you ask whether it's an inordinate amount of time. Two months, in my history, as the former prosecutor in the military and very much involved in the cover-ups and investigations can run on and on and on. But this one isn't going to.
And again, I can only say that we have the independent investigations going on. And they're going to be thorough.
DOBBS: Mayor Poydasheff, we thank you very much for being with us.
POYDASHEFF: Thank you, sir. Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next, Martha Stewart's co-defendant takes the stand as the defense calls for a mistrial. We'll have a live report for you from the courthouse in lower Manhattan.
And embracing America, its culture, its society and sharing in its pride. Some say assimilation in this country is no longer working. Some say immigrants no longer want to assimilate.
We'll be hearing from two sides of this debate in tonight's edition of "Face Off." Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: It's been one month since President Bush unveiled his controversial immigration policy, a plan that would allow millions of illegal aliens to legally remain in this country.
Absent from the president's plan however, is a program to better assimilate illegal aliens and immigrants, if that is ultimately the decision of our lawmakers, into American society.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's "Face Off." And joining me, John Fonte is a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute who says assimilation is not working and that immigrants must do more than learn English. They need to become loyal, patriotic Americans.
And Tamar Jacoby, however, says assimilation is working. And she is the author of "Reinventing the Melting Pot."
And to both of you, welcome.
Tamar, let me ask you. As we look at this society, whether it be in New York City, Los Angeles, in the Midwest, there is always a certain amount of politics going on, some places more robustly and vigorously than others.
That doesn't look like assimilation to many people.
TAMAR JACOBY, AUTHOR, "REINVENTING THE MELTING POST: Identity politics isn't really assimilation. But identity politics is a thin -- is popular in the thin layer at the top of the immigrant social pyramid.
Most immigrants want to become Americans. They understand what's great about America, and they want to become Americans.
DOBBS: John, your thoughts?
JOHN FONTE, SENIOR FELLOW, THE HUDSON INSTITUTE: Well, I would say first of all, America is the greatest immigration country in the history of the world because we have had assimilation, because we have had patriotic assimilation. And I think Tamar and I share that goal.
But I think we have to look at empirical evidence, and some of the evidence is from the Pugh Hispanic survey of -- that was taken after 9/11. It was taken six or seven months after 9/11.
And the question was how do you identify yourself? What's your primary identification? These are two -- American citizens. They're all American citizens. They are Latinos who are American citizens.
And only 33 percent consider themselves Americans first. And this is six months after the emotion of 9/11. And these are people who raised their arm and swore an oath of allegiance "I absolutely entirely announce all allegiance" and gone through the moving ceremony.
And yet only one-third identified themselves primarily as Americans. So I think if we look at some of these empirical studies, there are problems.
JACOBY: I don't know how that question was asked and what the context was, but that's just not my experience at all.
If you traveled in Mexican-American Hispanic neighborhoods after 9/11, there were more flags flying on the houses in those neighborhoods than there were almost anywhere else. Mexican-Americans are very patriotic.
FONTE: I agree with you. I think they are very patriotic in many cases. I'm saying this was empirical evidence that was presented in the Pugh, which you're familiar with. The Pugh Hispanic study said that only one-third of the people consider themselves Americans first.
JACOBY: You know, people are learning English faster than ever before. And most groups are moving up the economic ladder. People do become citizens.
I don't think the evidence, you know, that's what -- you're talking about one question. I don't think the evidence supports your skepticism. I...
FONTE: I agree with you about people learning English. There are people learning English faster, and they are assimilating somewhat economically.
But I don't think linguistic assimilation, simply learning English or making money is really enough. Muhammad Atta, who was the leader of the 9/11 terrorists, spoke English very well.
JACOBY: Well, I agree with you learning English isn't enough. And I also agree with you that we have to learn to talk to today's immigrants differently in order to welcome them to America and persuade them to become Americans.
DOBBS: Let's get to issues in -- since John, you focused on Latinos, Hispanics in this society, legal immigrants. We are seeing a explosion of language, Spanish language television, radio, and media. We -- you can drive through any part of New York. You will see Chinese language; you will see Korean; you will see any number of languages.
This is something that you didn't see.
JACOBY: Newcomers -- Newcomers still speak the language that they brought with them. Adults often continue to speak the language. Hispanic, the second generation of Hispanics, anyone who grows up here, they universally become proficient in English.
By the third generation the number is two thirds speak English only.
FONTE: I agree with what Tamar was saying about people learning as time goes on. But the large influx of new immigrants coming at the same time, that means that there are always large numbers of people not speaking English. But...
JACOBY: That's always been true in our history. It doesn't pose the kind of problem I think people are afraid of.
FONTE: But we have had different pauses at different times. Now we've had almost perpetual immigration for a very long time.
DOBBS: We have perpetual immigration. It appears that we're going to have a considerable contest on Capitol Hill as to what shape that immigration will take and what our policies going forward will be.
The issue of assimilation -- we're watching Europe grapple with this now. The French National Assembly yesterday voted by an overwhelming margin to ban headscarves and other religious symbols, but it was fully directed at the unassimilated population Muslim population of France.
Is this country doing enough? In terms of its relationship with immigrants, are we doing enough? In examining dual citizenship, there was a time that was impossible. No one would even think of permitting such a thing, whether it be with the E.U., in Asia, or this hemisphere.
JACOBY: I'd like to see us reaching out in a more positive way. Banning a headscarf is only going to create a backlash. People are going to that headscarf more tightly.
DOBBS: I should clarify. I think that's -- ban is the backlash to what was perceived.
JACOBY: But you see, I think what we should be doing is offering a positive vision of what it means to be an American.
We should be asking people to become citizens. We are saying what you appreciate about this country. The fact that you don't have to pay off the police and that your kids do have better opportunity. That's being American.
We want you to embrace that. And not scolding them and saying you have to leave behind what you came from. Because that only...
DOBBS: That's a whole different issue.
FONTE: Lou, I agree with...
DOBBS: Yes.
FONTE: ... what Tamar is saying. Those sentiments, obviously, I completely agree with.
DOBBS: Right.
FONTE: However, she didn't answer the question of dual citizenship...
DOBBS: Right.
FONTE: ... which is a problem. There's something -- there's a lot we can do about this.
Recently there was a person in -- a man in Los Angeles who came here as an illegal alien. He got citizenship. He became an American citizenship. He took an oath to absolutely entirely renounce all allegiance to a foreign power.
And then he's just been elected to the Mexican Congress. So -- when he was elected to the Mexican Congress he took an oath of loyalty to Mexico.
This is a problem. Obviously a big assimilation problem.
DOBBS: Well, you've got to admire the man's energy and ambition.
But what are we going to do? Should there be dual citizenships?
JACOBY: The Supreme Court -- The Supreme Court decided in the '60s that there's nothing we can do about other countries offering dual citizenship.
FONTE: That's not completely true.
JACOBY: But what we...
FONTE: Go ahead and finish your point, and I'll answer.
JACOBY: My point is that it would be counter productive to say to people you can't be an American citizen if you hold onto your old citizenship. Then we'd have a situation like the Turks in Germany.
DOBBS: Tamar, the Turks in Germany, who are going to probably have, based on what we see happening, more rights to exhibit their Muslim dress than the Turks themselves in Turkey.
JACOBY: Right.
DOBBS: Tamar, thank you very much.
John, thank you.
We're going to ask you both back. As usual, I've managed to run us out of time. We thank you both for being with us.
Coming up next, trying to find a solution to this nation's trade situation. Some would call it a crisis. I'll be talking with Eamonn Fingleton. He says that the mainstream economic thinking is first orthodoxy. It's wrong-headed, and it's destroying American prosperity.
And tonight, "Made in America," the story of a cosmetics company refusing to abandon its loyal American employees. We'll have their story and a great deal more still ahead. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The market today. Stocks rallied on Wall Street. The Dow Jones industrials are now at the highest level in two and a half years. The Dow up 123 points, the NASDAQ up 14.33. The S&P up more than 12 points.
More testimony damaging to the defense today in the Martha Stewart trial. Mary Snow is at the federal courthouse here in Manhattan and has the day's developments.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, some contradictions today in what Martha Stewart and her former stockbroker and now co-defendant Peter Bacanovic told government investigators in early 2002 following Stewart's sale of ImClone stock.
For the very first time, jurors heard the voice of Peter Bacanovic. They listened to an audiotape of a government interview with Bacanovic.
And one inconsistency, for example, Bacanovic told investigators that he did not tell Martha Stewart that the SEC was talking to Merrill Lynch. Stewart's version was different.
An FBI agent testified Stewart told her that Bacanovic did tell him that -- tell her, that is, that the SEC was talking to Merrill Lynch.
Stewart's government investigations were not recorded, so there was no audiotape of that. The government really is trying to do prove the charge of making false statements. The trial resumes on Friday -- Lou.
DOBBS: On balance, more damaging to Bacanovic, the broker, or more damaging to the defense of Martha Stewart?
SNOW: I think damaging to both, Lou, but probably more damaging to Peter Bacanovic. DOBBS: Mary, thank you very much for making the snap assessment. I apologize for asking you to do so. Thanks a lot.
In "Made in America" tonight, a cosmetics company built on hard work, loyalty and even patriotism.
Merle Norman founded her company 83 years ago. Now, her heirs proudly carry on the company traditions, including "made in America."
Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Merle Norman's 600 employees average 15 years with the cosmetic company. Several have worked more than 40. Thirty-seven percent have never missed a day of work or even been late. Depending on seniority, that can earn yearly bonuses from a new bike to a trip anywhere in the world.
Here loyalty goes both ways.
JAKE NETHERCUTT, VICE CHAIR, MERLE NORMAN: We're not about to move to Mexico or something like that and abandon these loyal employees. We also like to have control of quality, inventory, et cetera.
WIAN: Merle Norman sells through 1,800 franchised studios, where a woman can get her makeup done and buy products.
NETHERCUTT: Our biggest sales area is really the Deep South. And the Southern belle is alive and well and wears a lot of makeup.
WIAN: But even in L.A., made in America sells.
GINA JACOBY, MERLE NORMAN FRANCHISEE: Especially in the last few years they really like to know that it's made here in the U.S. They've heard stories about the corporation and how, you know, the product quality is as good as it was, you know, 75 years ago. So it means a lot to them.
WIAN (on camera): Merle Norman started not far from here in Santa Monica, California, in 1931. The cosmetic industry has changed a lot since then, but much about the company remains the same.
(voice-over) Many of the machines on the factory floor date to the 1950s. Everyone, including top executives, lunches at the company cafeteria, the cost 25 cents.
To encourage perfect attendance, factory employees work four ten- hour days. And there's a dentist's office on site.
Merle Norman does carry one product made in Germany, an eye pencil line. That's a tiny fraction of its $100 million annual sales. But Merle Norman refuses to follow competitors who employ cheap foreign labor.
J.B. NETHERCUTT, CHAIRMAN, MERLE NORMAN: It's a company principle.
WIAN: Ninety-one-year-old J.B. Nethercutt is Merle Norman's nephew. He still comes to work once a week with a fierce patriotism predating 9/11 by six decades.
J.B. NETHERCUTT: I will never forget December 7.
WIAN: As long as he's alive, J.B. says Merle Norman won't be sending jobs out of the United States.
Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: A record number of jobs are going out of this country. Our trade deficit with the rest of the world continues to worsen, and my guest now says America's trade situation is simply a disaster.
Eamonn Fingleton, author of "Unsustainable: How Economic Dogma is Destroying American Prosperity."
Good to have you here.
EAMONN FINGLETON, AUTHOR, "UNSUSTAINABLE": Thank you.
DOBBS: What specific dogma is undermining our thinking and our performance?
FINGLETON: The dogma of free trade. People are not looking at the other side of the trade equation. There are many, many downsides to this trade situation.
DOBBS: A half trillion dollar deficit. Three trillion in the aggregate in IOU's held by foreigners against U.S. assets. Where are we headed?
FINGLETON: Basically, the issue is the ownership of America. As this goes on, more and more of America is owned by foreigners.
At a certain point this will be a major, major political issue, as it has been in other countries that have had foreign ownership to a higher extent than is tolerable.
DOBBS: Why in the world, Democrats and Republicans alike, is there this adherence to this sort of mindless mantra that rises almost to a religious belief that the market is the answer? Does it -- is it just a way to curtail thinking and move on?
FINGLETON: I think partly it's ideology and partly there's a lot of propaganda. I think that the trade lobby in Washington is much stronger than people realize. It subsidizes think tanks. It subsidizes academics, the right people with the right views.
DOBBS: Who is the trade lobby?
FINGLETON: Well, there are many trade lobbies, but they make common cause a lot: the Japan lobby, the German lobby. There are people acting on behalf of China, very often corporate Americans acting on behalf of China. But they all make common cause in promoting this dogma.
DOBBS: And what is the solution? Only now are we beginning to see some concern surfacing in Congress and none at all in this White House about the impact of free trade, so called.
FINGLETON: Well, I think that first of all, the media should be focusing on the total story, not just the benefits to the consumer. The benefits to the consumer are certainly there, but there is the other side, which, of course is jobs and ultimately the sale of American assets to foreigners.
DOBBS: Well, you know, those are jobs that Americans don't want. It's sort of beneath us to manufacture things, to build our own die and tool, to actually manufacture the components of manufacturing.
FINGLETON: I couldn't disagree more with that point of view, which, of course, you fully understand, is wrong.
Basically, manufacturing at the level we're talking about, advanced manufacturing for an advanced nation, is extremely capital intensive, extremely no-know intensive that creates very high value- added jobs.
And it creates exports. It creates a strong nation.
DOBBS: And we're exporting it all right now.
Eamonn Fingleton, thank you for being with us.
FINGLETON: My pleasure.
DOBBS: We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll: four percent of you agree with the Bush administration that outsourcing jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is good for the economy. I'm proud to say 96 percent of you do not.
That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us.
Tomorrow, I'll be joined by Congressman Jerrod Brown, who says the president's support for the exporting of America is outrageous.
Also tomorrow, James Glassman, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, who says I'm outrageous. He disagrees with me entirely on the issue of exporting American jobs. We'll debate tomorrow. Please join us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. Anderson Cooper is next.
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