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Passion About "Passion": Faithful to the Gospels or Demonization of Jews?
Aired February 21, 2004 - 12:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Mel Gibson's controversial new film, "The Passion of the Christ," opens on 2,000 screens four days from now. That's on Ash Wednesday. "The Passion" depicts the final 12 hours of Jesus' life and his crucifixion in graphic detail.
Supporters say Gibson has made a movie faithful to the gospel. Critics, however, charge that he has distorted scriptures and has demonized Jews in the process.
Our guests have seen rough cuts of the film and talked with Mel Gibson about his work. They came away with very different opinions.
Lee Strobel is the author of "Embracing the Passion" and "The Case for Christ." He's in Los Angeles.
And in Fort Myers, Florida, today, Rabbi James Rudin with the American Jewish Committee.
Welcome to both of you.
LEE STROBEL, AUTHOR, "EMBRACING THE PASSION": Thank you.
RABBI JAMES RUDIN, AMERICAN JEWISH COMMITTEE: Thank you so much.
WHITFIELD: So both of you have seen portions or various versions of the film. You've come away with very different views of them.
Mr. Strobel, let me begin with you.
STROBEL: Yes.
WHITFIELD: What are your opinions of what you saw?
STROBEL: Well, I was an atheist for most of my life and became a Christian after looking at the historical evidence. And so I knew a lot of facts and data and information about the crucifixion, about the passion of Jesus. But sitting in that film was like having a front- row seat to history. And watching it unfold in Technicolor with Dolby stereo, was a very moving and powerful experience.
WHITFIELD: So you believed in the accuracy of this film?
STROBEL: I believe it follows the contours of the gospel. It's not totally faithful to the historical record. There are some deviations here and there. But I think it follows the contours of what the gospels teach pretty well.
WHITFIELD: And Rabbi Rudin, you saw it. Did you walk away feeling like this respected the gospels?
RUDIN: Well, I've seen it twice, in Houston and in Florida.
There are three major - there are many problems with them. As the poet once said, let me count the ways.
First of all, Mr. Gibson has picked from the New Testament the sour synoptic - the three synoptic gospels and John -- some of the most anti-Jewish stereotypes and caricatures. To compound it even further, to distort the historical record, he's loaded in material in his movie which nowhere appears anywhere in the New Testament. And what's most disturbing is he has really gone against the magnificent teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, the Evangelical Church, Lutheran Church in America.
And so there are so many problems, and the Jews come out the malicious bad guys, the cartoon strip, that drive the story.
I would say it is a particular person's view of the story. And my colleague out in L.A. -- there are historical records -- there's not one historical record about the Crucifixion in of Jesus.
WHITFIELD: And Rabbi, you had a chance to talk to Mel Gibson, correct? And you even made some suggestions to him?
RUDIN: Well, very briefly in Houston, after the screening, I went up to him, and I said, The mob scenes in his movie that I saw, the howling blood thirsty crowd, the mob of Jews bent on Jesus' murder and execution were worse than anything I had seen in Uberamergau in Germany, which is the grandparent of all passion plays. And I suggested that perhaps there had -- a prior consultation could be set up so that you could see a faithful passion play, faithful to Christianity, but at the same time not vilifying and demonizing the Jews. And that's, I think, what we have in this movie.
And it's very, very sad because millions of people will see this passion play and believe that it is the truth when, in fact, it is Mr. Gibson's version, complicated by material that's simply not even in the New Testament.
STROBEL: I just have to disagree that this demonizes Jews or somehow characterizes all of them as being evil or whatever. I think the Romans come out the worst in this thing. They're the ones who crucified Jesus. The Kyaphists and the high priest, who were collaborators in a sense, are the ones who look bad because they're the ones that instigated some of this stuff, according to the gospel records and according to the film.
But there are Jewish people in this film who come off very positive in this film. There are people who walk away from these proceedings and declare that it as a travesty. There are people who try to serve Jesus by providing water. Jesus says to some of the priests, as he's walking with the cross -- he says, Nobody takes my life from me. I lay it down of my own accord. I forgive all those who were involved with this.
The Jewish people are not responsible for what happened, nor are they portrayed as such in the film.
WHITFIELD: Go ahead, rabbi.
RUDIN: Well, I would disagree. I would disagree. You have to take into account the history of passion plays and how each person sees it. You see it one way. The Jewish people see it another way. And there's simply a great difference.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: ... have been the source of lethal physical attacks. Thanks God, not in the United States.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: You're, you know, saying that everyone walks away with a different interpretation from this movie.
RUDIN: And everybody brings a different view to it.
WHITFIELD: And that is also the case when you talk about the interpretations of the gospel.
So perhaps -- is Mel Gibson doing a good thing in releasing this film and having put together this film because it is provoking some great exchanges of ideas and interpretations on what is taking place before the screen and what has taken place in terms of interpretations of the gospels? Rabbi?
RUDIN: Well, I have no problem with -- an artist has every right to make any kind of film he or she wants. An audience has every right to bring a reaction to it.
What I really find troubling, aside from the extra biblical material, stuff that's simply not in the New Testament, is that many people are saying, This is the truth. This is the truth. This is the way it really happened. We just heard lee say out in L.A., Eye witness to history.
This is one person's take on a very, very important story for Christians.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: OK, and Mr. Strobel, I'm going to let you have the last word because we're out of time. Do you believe that that's indeed going to be the case when people leave the film?
STROBEL: I think people are going to walk away with the message of the movie, which is hope, which is redemption, which is faith, which is forgiveness. That is the message of the movie. And anybody who comes away with an Anti-Semitic impetus as a result is twisting and distorting that message into something it was never intended to be.
WHITFIELD: OK. All right. Lee Strobel, you get the last word on that. And Rabbi Rudin, thank you as well for joining us, gentlemen.
STROBEL: Thank you.
RUDIN: My pleasure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Demonization of Jews?>
Aired February 21, 2004 - 12:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Mel Gibson's controversial new film, "The Passion of the Christ," opens on 2,000 screens four days from now. That's on Ash Wednesday. "The Passion" depicts the final 12 hours of Jesus' life and his crucifixion in graphic detail.
Supporters say Gibson has made a movie faithful to the gospel. Critics, however, charge that he has distorted scriptures and has demonized Jews in the process.
Our guests have seen rough cuts of the film and talked with Mel Gibson about his work. They came away with very different opinions.
Lee Strobel is the author of "Embracing the Passion" and "The Case for Christ." He's in Los Angeles.
And in Fort Myers, Florida, today, Rabbi James Rudin with the American Jewish Committee.
Welcome to both of you.
LEE STROBEL, AUTHOR, "EMBRACING THE PASSION": Thank you.
RABBI JAMES RUDIN, AMERICAN JEWISH COMMITTEE: Thank you so much.
WHITFIELD: So both of you have seen portions or various versions of the film. You've come away with very different views of them.
Mr. Strobel, let me begin with you.
STROBEL: Yes.
WHITFIELD: What are your opinions of what you saw?
STROBEL: Well, I was an atheist for most of my life and became a Christian after looking at the historical evidence. And so I knew a lot of facts and data and information about the crucifixion, about the passion of Jesus. But sitting in that film was like having a front- row seat to history. And watching it unfold in Technicolor with Dolby stereo, was a very moving and powerful experience.
WHITFIELD: So you believed in the accuracy of this film?
STROBEL: I believe it follows the contours of the gospel. It's not totally faithful to the historical record. There are some deviations here and there. But I think it follows the contours of what the gospels teach pretty well.
WHITFIELD: And Rabbi Rudin, you saw it. Did you walk away feeling like this respected the gospels?
RUDIN: Well, I've seen it twice, in Houston and in Florida.
There are three major - there are many problems with them. As the poet once said, let me count the ways.
First of all, Mr. Gibson has picked from the New Testament the sour synoptic - the three synoptic gospels and John -- some of the most anti-Jewish stereotypes and caricatures. To compound it even further, to distort the historical record, he's loaded in material in his movie which nowhere appears anywhere in the New Testament. And what's most disturbing is he has really gone against the magnificent teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, the Evangelical Church, Lutheran Church in America.
And so there are so many problems, and the Jews come out the malicious bad guys, the cartoon strip, that drive the story.
I would say it is a particular person's view of the story. And my colleague out in L.A. -- there are historical records -- there's not one historical record about the Crucifixion in of Jesus.
WHITFIELD: And Rabbi, you had a chance to talk to Mel Gibson, correct? And you even made some suggestions to him?
RUDIN: Well, very briefly in Houston, after the screening, I went up to him, and I said, The mob scenes in his movie that I saw, the howling blood thirsty crowd, the mob of Jews bent on Jesus' murder and execution were worse than anything I had seen in Uberamergau in Germany, which is the grandparent of all passion plays. And I suggested that perhaps there had -- a prior consultation could be set up so that you could see a faithful passion play, faithful to Christianity, but at the same time not vilifying and demonizing the Jews. And that's, I think, what we have in this movie.
And it's very, very sad because millions of people will see this passion play and believe that it is the truth when, in fact, it is Mr. Gibson's version, complicated by material that's simply not even in the New Testament.
STROBEL: I just have to disagree that this demonizes Jews or somehow characterizes all of them as being evil or whatever. I think the Romans come out the worst in this thing. They're the ones who crucified Jesus. The Kyaphists and the high priest, who were collaborators in a sense, are the ones who look bad because they're the ones that instigated some of this stuff, according to the gospel records and according to the film.
But there are Jewish people in this film who come off very positive in this film. There are people who walk away from these proceedings and declare that it as a travesty. There are people who try to serve Jesus by providing water. Jesus says to some of the priests, as he's walking with the cross -- he says, Nobody takes my life from me. I lay it down of my own accord. I forgive all those who were involved with this.
The Jewish people are not responsible for what happened, nor are they portrayed as such in the film.
WHITFIELD: Go ahead, rabbi.
RUDIN: Well, I would disagree. I would disagree. You have to take into account the history of passion plays and how each person sees it. You see it one way. The Jewish people see it another way. And there's simply a great difference.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: ... have been the source of lethal physical attacks. Thanks God, not in the United States.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: You're, you know, saying that everyone walks away with a different interpretation from this movie.
RUDIN: And everybody brings a different view to it.
WHITFIELD: And that is also the case when you talk about the interpretations of the gospel.
So perhaps -- is Mel Gibson doing a good thing in releasing this film and having put together this film because it is provoking some great exchanges of ideas and interpretations on what is taking place before the screen and what has taken place in terms of interpretations of the gospels? Rabbi?
RUDIN: Well, I have no problem with -- an artist has every right to make any kind of film he or she wants. An audience has every right to bring a reaction to it.
What I really find troubling, aside from the extra biblical material, stuff that's simply not in the New Testament, is that many people are saying, This is the truth. This is the truth. This is the way it really happened. We just heard lee say out in L.A., Eye witness to history.
This is one person's take on a very, very important story for Christians.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: OK, and Mr. Strobel, I'm going to let you have the last word because we're out of time. Do you believe that that's indeed going to be the case when people leave the film?
STROBEL: I think people are going to walk away with the message of the movie, which is hope, which is redemption, which is faith, which is forgiveness. That is the message of the movie. And anybody who comes away with an Anti-Semitic impetus as a result is twisting and distorting that message into something it was never intended to be.
WHITFIELD: OK. All right. Lee Strobel, you get the last word on that. And Rabbi Rudin, thank you as well for joining us, gentlemen.
STROBEL: Thank you.
RUDIN: My pleasure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Demonization of Jews?>
