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CNN Live Sunday

What Do Jews Need To Know About "The Passion"?

Aired February 22, 2004 - 18:23   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: A preview clip from Mel Gibson's new film "The Passion of the Christ." After much hype and controversy, the movie opens this week on Ash Wednesday.
So how historically accurate is it, and what should Jews know about "The Passion?" Joining me now is Rabbi Gary Bretton-Granatdor, the director of the Interfaith Affairs of the Anti-Defamation League.

Also with us, is Steven Kraftchick. He is a professor at Emory University's Candler School of Theology.

Rabbi, you have seen the movie. Professor you have not seen the movie yet. But we're going to be talking about issues as well as the movie itself. And thank you both for joining us.

The fact that there is a symposium, and there have been symposiums around the country based on this, that, at least you have to give Mel Gibson credit for sparking this kind of discussion, right?

RABBI GARY BRETTON-GRANATDOR, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: Well, there has been a continuing discussion at least for the last 40 years, actually longer, but certainly in the wake of the release of the film, we've had the opportunity to intensify that discussion.

SAN MIGUEL: And professor, also maybe an admission or the fact that we're having these, the Jewish community sees a lot of power for potential whether for good or harm in this movie.

PROF. STEVEN KRAFTCHICK, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Yes, so should the Christian community. The symposia shouldn't just be with people who could be targeted people, but Folks who are going to be watching this film need to educate themselves about how to watch the film. The owness is on churches as well as synagogues.

SAN MIGUEL: Rabbi, I have to ask you since you have seen the movie. I'm not Jewish, but if I were, there would be two questions I would want to know. Number one, after all the hype and controversy, is it -- can it be perceived as anti-semitic, because if it is, I'm not going to give Mel Gibson my $9, $10, $11? And number two, is it reasonably accurate to the gospels? And I'll explain what I mean by reasonably accurate in a moment. But what's your take on those 2 questions?

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: First of all, we've never said this is an anti-semitic film. What we have said, however, is there is a potential to unleash anti-Semitism, or anti-semitic feelings. And that's our concern, because of the images that are portrayed. For two hours, the images of the Jews are as the responsible party here and there's no getting away from that, and there are people who will say that it is not so -- not so obvious that the Jews are responsible, but I think it's quite clear from the very get go.

SAN MIGUEL: And you believe that it does follow the contours, the guidelines, you know, the basics of the gospels?

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: Well, first of all, you have four separate stories, four very different gospels that one has to make a choice about what they're going to use in order to weave together within story. And once you put that together, you have a story that runs less than your average op ed piece so you have to fill it in.

And the problem is, Mr. Gibson relies upon extra Biblical material that is not reflected in the gospels. The big problem with that is, when he's being advertised as being historically or scripturely accurate, there will be people who will walk out of there saying, everything I saw must come directly from the gospels. And therefore, they'll get a false impression.

SAN MIGUEL: And professor, is that your concern as well. Because as we have heard before in a lot of the run up to this movie, depending on who you're reading, whether it's Matthew or Luke, or whoever, you're going to get a different take. Based on the tenor of the times in which that gospel was written, and who was doing the writing, I mean, that accounts for the differences, correct?

KRAFTCHICK: Not only that, but each gospel writer is trying to address the needs of his or her community and a portrait of Jesus that's depicted in each gospel speaks to particular contours of that community. So, if Mr. Gibson makes this film, he's going to create his own portrait of what happened, who Jesus was and what this meant.

What he's doing is not new. People have been trying to do this for 2 or 300 years. What makes this different is the filmography and what you can do with imagery. There's where the real question is, how are people portrayed, what do they look like, what are they saying or not saying, what are they doing or not doing? Who wears the good guy hats and who wears the bad guy hats?

SAN MIGUEL: Let's talk more about that. We'll get both of you to weigh in on this, the role of the Jewish priest like Caiaphus. The Jewish religious leaders of the day, in the death of Jesus. The final call to let live or die was, of course, Pontius Pilate's, but concerning the role of the leaders of the day, how does the movie square with what you've been taught?

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: First of all, the high priest is a political figure. And there's no question that he and Pontius Pilate were in many ways in cahoots. So, were there Jews who were involved in bringing Jesus to crucifixion? Yes, there were Jews involved. But the problem is, again, as the professor has pointed out, the imagery.

At the scene where Pontius Pilate washes his hands and asks should I crucify him, there's a huge crowd and they cheer with one voice, even if Mr. Gibson decides to leave out the line, at least the subtitle of the line...

SAN MIGUEL: His blood on our hands.

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: ...his blood is on our hands and on our children's. Even if he leaves that out, the image that's portrayed is that there's a huge unified community that is supporting this decision. And that's just -- that doesn't square with history.

SAN MIGUEL: You know, that seems to be the controversy here of whether or not, you know, complicity of the Jewish leaders. What is your take on that particular issue?

KRAFTCHICK: Well, if it were purely religious, I don't think anything would have happened. And if it were purely political I don't think anything would have happened. It was a conjunction of religious claims and potentially political sedition that Jesus coming into the temple, doing what he did, entering the city the way he did, could have been received by the Roman forces as treasonness action. You couple those with the swollen population during Passover and I think the government acted in a way that they thought was expedition.

SAN MIGUEL: They saw the pot being stirred here.

KRAFTCHICK: And rather to strike first is their sense.

SAN MIGUEL: As you well know, many evangelical Christian groups are supporting this movie, are basically marketing it for Mel Gibson and encouraging their flock to go see it. We're going to be speaking at 10:00 tonight Eastern time with James Dobson of Focus on the Family, one of the leading evangelical Christians in country. What would you want him to tell his supporters from the Jewish community's perspective, Rabbi.

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: That there is a history behind this. And that is the history of the passion play, going back to 1150. In the past, passion plays have been used to incite violence against the Jewish community. Let Mr. Dobson go to his community say, watch this, but learn. Learn about the history of the past, learn about what's in the text and what isn't in the text, and learn about how you can reach out and make this a passion of love and not a passion of hate.

SAN MIGUEL: Professor?

KRAFTCHICK: Well, it is a moment of education. And so, I would urge all these folks to try to use this as a teaching moment. But I think one of the things that I would stress is that the gospels are remarkably silent about the actual physical suffering. What they really stress is the relational break that occurs, and the intimacy that's broken, so it would be helpful to move people away from focusing on the gruel of it and start to think about what actually occurs in terms of the rending of human relationships.

SAN MIGUEL: Rabbi, a Jewish movie critic, Michael Medved, has said that -- has written that, overreaction can provoke more anti- Semitism that anything that's in the movie. Could become a self- fulling prophesy in other words. What are your thoughts about that? That maybe some -- in his view, some Jewish community leaders are kind of stoking the flames themselves?

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: Well, I disagree. And I would also say, most vociferously, again, history has taught us the lessons that we need to know. And if we ignore history, than we have done a disservice to our community. We know what could be unleashed, and we're trying to address it.

SAN MIGUEL: All right. We have to leave it there, but thank you both for coming in after the symposium this afternoon. And we'll see what happens on Ash Wednesday when the movie comes out.

Rabbi Gary Bretton-Granatdor of the Anti-Defamation League and Steven Kraftchick of Emory University, thank for both being here. We appreciate your time.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired February 22, 2004 - 18:23   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: A preview clip from Mel Gibson's new film "The Passion of the Christ." After much hype and controversy, the movie opens this week on Ash Wednesday.
So how historically accurate is it, and what should Jews know about "The Passion?" Joining me now is Rabbi Gary Bretton-Granatdor, the director of the Interfaith Affairs of the Anti-Defamation League.

Also with us, is Steven Kraftchick. He is a professor at Emory University's Candler School of Theology.

Rabbi, you have seen the movie. Professor you have not seen the movie yet. But we're going to be talking about issues as well as the movie itself. And thank you both for joining us.

The fact that there is a symposium, and there have been symposiums around the country based on this, that, at least you have to give Mel Gibson credit for sparking this kind of discussion, right?

RABBI GARY BRETTON-GRANATDOR, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: Well, there has been a continuing discussion at least for the last 40 years, actually longer, but certainly in the wake of the release of the film, we've had the opportunity to intensify that discussion.

SAN MIGUEL: And professor, also maybe an admission or the fact that we're having these, the Jewish community sees a lot of power for potential whether for good or harm in this movie.

PROF. STEVEN KRAFTCHICK, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Yes, so should the Christian community. The symposia shouldn't just be with people who could be targeted people, but Folks who are going to be watching this film need to educate themselves about how to watch the film. The owness is on churches as well as synagogues.

SAN MIGUEL: Rabbi, I have to ask you since you have seen the movie. I'm not Jewish, but if I were, there would be two questions I would want to know. Number one, after all the hype and controversy, is it -- can it be perceived as anti-semitic, because if it is, I'm not going to give Mel Gibson my $9, $10, $11? And number two, is it reasonably accurate to the gospels? And I'll explain what I mean by reasonably accurate in a moment. But what's your take on those 2 questions?

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: First of all, we've never said this is an anti-semitic film. What we have said, however, is there is a potential to unleash anti-Semitism, or anti-semitic feelings. And that's our concern, because of the images that are portrayed. For two hours, the images of the Jews are as the responsible party here and there's no getting away from that, and there are people who will say that it is not so -- not so obvious that the Jews are responsible, but I think it's quite clear from the very get go.

SAN MIGUEL: And you believe that it does follow the contours, the guidelines, you know, the basics of the gospels?

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: Well, first of all, you have four separate stories, four very different gospels that one has to make a choice about what they're going to use in order to weave together within story. And once you put that together, you have a story that runs less than your average op ed piece so you have to fill it in.

And the problem is, Mr. Gibson relies upon extra Biblical material that is not reflected in the gospels. The big problem with that is, when he's being advertised as being historically or scripturely accurate, there will be people who will walk out of there saying, everything I saw must come directly from the gospels. And therefore, they'll get a false impression.

SAN MIGUEL: And professor, is that your concern as well. Because as we have heard before in a lot of the run up to this movie, depending on who you're reading, whether it's Matthew or Luke, or whoever, you're going to get a different take. Based on the tenor of the times in which that gospel was written, and who was doing the writing, I mean, that accounts for the differences, correct?

KRAFTCHICK: Not only that, but each gospel writer is trying to address the needs of his or her community and a portrait of Jesus that's depicted in each gospel speaks to particular contours of that community. So, if Mr. Gibson makes this film, he's going to create his own portrait of what happened, who Jesus was and what this meant.

What he's doing is not new. People have been trying to do this for 2 or 300 years. What makes this different is the filmography and what you can do with imagery. There's where the real question is, how are people portrayed, what do they look like, what are they saying or not saying, what are they doing or not doing? Who wears the good guy hats and who wears the bad guy hats?

SAN MIGUEL: Let's talk more about that. We'll get both of you to weigh in on this, the role of the Jewish priest like Caiaphus. The Jewish religious leaders of the day, in the death of Jesus. The final call to let live or die was, of course, Pontius Pilate's, but concerning the role of the leaders of the day, how does the movie square with what you've been taught?

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: First of all, the high priest is a political figure. And there's no question that he and Pontius Pilate were in many ways in cahoots. So, were there Jews who were involved in bringing Jesus to crucifixion? Yes, there were Jews involved. But the problem is, again, as the professor has pointed out, the imagery.

At the scene where Pontius Pilate washes his hands and asks should I crucify him, there's a huge crowd and they cheer with one voice, even if Mr. Gibson decides to leave out the line, at least the subtitle of the line...

SAN MIGUEL: His blood on our hands.

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: ...his blood is on our hands and on our children's. Even if he leaves that out, the image that's portrayed is that there's a huge unified community that is supporting this decision. And that's just -- that doesn't square with history.

SAN MIGUEL: You know, that seems to be the controversy here of whether or not, you know, complicity of the Jewish leaders. What is your take on that particular issue?

KRAFTCHICK: Well, if it were purely religious, I don't think anything would have happened. And if it were purely political I don't think anything would have happened. It was a conjunction of religious claims and potentially political sedition that Jesus coming into the temple, doing what he did, entering the city the way he did, could have been received by the Roman forces as treasonness action. You couple those with the swollen population during Passover and I think the government acted in a way that they thought was expedition.

SAN MIGUEL: They saw the pot being stirred here.

KRAFTCHICK: And rather to strike first is their sense.

SAN MIGUEL: As you well know, many evangelical Christian groups are supporting this movie, are basically marketing it for Mel Gibson and encouraging their flock to go see it. We're going to be speaking at 10:00 tonight Eastern time with James Dobson of Focus on the Family, one of the leading evangelical Christians in country. What would you want him to tell his supporters from the Jewish community's perspective, Rabbi.

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: That there is a history behind this. And that is the history of the passion play, going back to 1150. In the past, passion plays have been used to incite violence against the Jewish community. Let Mr. Dobson go to his community say, watch this, but learn. Learn about the history of the past, learn about what's in the text and what isn't in the text, and learn about how you can reach out and make this a passion of love and not a passion of hate.

SAN MIGUEL: Professor?

KRAFTCHICK: Well, it is a moment of education. And so, I would urge all these folks to try to use this as a teaching moment. But I think one of the things that I would stress is that the gospels are remarkably silent about the actual physical suffering. What they really stress is the relational break that occurs, and the intimacy that's broken, so it would be helpful to move people away from focusing on the gruel of it and start to think about what actually occurs in terms of the rending of human relationships.

SAN MIGUEL: Rabbi, a Jewish movie critic, Michael Medved, has said that -- has written that, overreaction can provoke more anti- Semitism that anything that's in the movie. Could become a self- fulling prophesy in other words. What are your thoughts about that? That maybe some -- in his view, some Jewish community leaders are kind of stoking the flames themselves?

BRETTON-GRANATDOR: Well, I disagree. And I would also say, most vociferously, again, history has taught us the lessons that we need to know. And if we ignore history, than we have done a disservice to our community. We know what could be unleashed, and we're trying to address it.

SAN MIGUEL: All right. We have to leave it there, but thank you both for coming in after the symposium this afternoon. And we'll see what happens on Ash Wednesday when the movie comes out.

Rabbi Gary Bretton-Granatdor of the Anti-Defamation League and Steven Kraftchick of Emory University, thank for both being here. We appreciate your time.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com