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NEWS FROM CNN

Same-Sex Marriage and Other Campaign Issues

Aired February 24, 2004 - 12:05   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Same-sex marriage is, of course, one of many campaign issues tied to the race for the White House. Will the president's announcement today help him or hurt him come November? And where do his Democratic rivals stand on the issue?
Joining us to talk about that and more, Gary Bauer, he's president of American Values, himself a former presidential candidate; Mike Donilon, the senior adviser with the Kerry campaign; and joining us from Chicago, David Axlerod, a senior strategist with the Edwards campaign.

Thanks to all of you for joining us.

First to you, Gary Bauer. I know you support such a constitutional amendment. What's your assessment? How likely is it that the Congress, the Senate and the House will pass it and the states will then ratify it?

GARY BAUER, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN VALUES: Wolf, I think there's a good chance. I know obviously a constitutional amendment is difficult to pass, but the country has been astonished over the last couple of weeks to see both what's happened in Massachusetts, with four judges demanding a change in the definition in marriage, and then really the incredible actions by the mayor of San Francisco, which I think astonished even some Democratic politicians in that state.

I think the American people know that this is a crisis when it comes to the definition of marriage. And I believe the people on Capitol Hill will hear that feeling by their voters.

BLITZER: Mike Donilon, Senator Kerry, where does he stand precisely on a constitutional amendment?

MIKE DONILON, KERRY CAMPAIGN: Well, Senator Kerry's position is very clear. He is opposed to a federal constitutional amendment. He believes this is a decision that should be made in the states. He does not support gay marriage, but he does support civil unions.

And Wolf, I think what we're seeing here today is very simply this: we're seeing a president who is in political trouble, and he's now trying to use the United States Constitution to fix his political problems. And I think that's a terrible use of the United States Constitution, given the fact that we are facing very serious problems facing families every day with respect to the job loss in this country -- nearly three million since this president has taken office -- with respect to the health care costs that are rising out of control. They're making it very difficult for families to carry health care for their children. And with the federal deficit, which is about to saddle a whole generation of young people with a terrible burden.

BLITZER: All right.

DONILON: Those are the kinds of things that the public would really like the president to focus on. And instead, he's chosen to go down a different road and to use the United States Constitution really to try to fix his political problems.

BLITZER: Is there any difference between the Kerry position and the Edwards position, David Axlerod?

DAVID AXELROD, EDWARDS CAMPAIGN: Well, I couldn't agree more with Mike Donilon. This isn't about preserving the institution of marriage. This is about preserving George Bush in office. He wants to distract the debate from his dismal jobs record and from all of his credibility problems.

BLITZER: But David, let me interrupt for a second.

AXELROD: Yes.

BLITZER: It's clear that Senator Edwards does oppose gay marriage, while he supports civil unions, is that right?

AXELROD: Yes, well his principal position is that the states ought to be allowed to make these decisions. And if a state decides in favor of civil unions, as Vermont did, then that's their right. And he's very strongly supportive of partnership rights so that people aren't denied the benefits they're deserved, denied the right to go see a sick relative in the hospital.

But that's -- again, Wolf, I think we're debating the substance of this. And the reality is, this wasn't a decision about substance. Joe Johns said they want to vote whether they pass it or not. That's exactly right. They want to make an issue in this election. This isn't about marriage, this is about politics.

BLITZER: All right. Let's let Gary respond to that.

Go ahead, Gary.

BAUER: In all due respect to my two colleagues, the idea that the president of the United States should sit idly by while one mayor of one city and a handful of judges redefines the institution of marriage is just downright bizarre. The president will defend his economic record and he will engage the debate on Iraq and job creation and all those things. But I think if anybody is trying to change the subject here, it is my two colleagues, who clearly are with candidates that are between a rock and a hard place.

BLITZER: Well, let me ask David Axlerod and Mike also to weigh in. Is this necessarily, politically speaking -- forget about the moral issues and all the other social issues -- but politically speaking, is this a winning issue for the president come November?

First to you David. AXELROD: You see, I have great confidence in the wisdom of the American people. Wherever they stand on this issue, I think they'll recognize this for what it is. It is an attempt, as Mike said, to use the U.S. Constitution to advance his political aims in this election. And that's not what people want from a president of the United States.

They want real leadership. And what they're getting here is crass politics.

BLITZER: All right. What about it, Mike? Is it a winning political issue for the president?

DONILON: Well, I never believe it is a winning political issue when candidates try to divide a nation as opposed to bringing them together. And I never believe that it is a winning political issue when the fundamental issues that are before the country, whether it is job creation or health care or the deficit, or the nation's security, when those issues are being pushed to the side, when the president is in political trouble. And I think that's what's going on. And I think the public will see really these core issues, the kinds of issues they're living with every day are really the things that they would wish this president would focus on.

BLITZER: All right. Let me bring Gary Bauer back in.

I want you to respond, Gary, to what Vice President Dick Cheney said in the debate, the vice presidential debate four years ago in October of 2000 when he was debating Joe Lieberman, the then Democratic vice presidential nominee. When this issue of gay marriage came up, listen precisely to what the vice president, Dick Cheney, said then.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think that means that people should be free to enter into my kind of relationship they want to enter into. It is really no one else's business in terms of trying to regulate or prohibit behavior in that regard. I think different states are likely to come to different conclusions, and that's appropriate. I don't think there should necessarily be a federal policy in this area.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. He clearly -- no federal policy in this area, clearly at odds with the president of the United States, assuming he still holds that position.

BAUER: No, he doesn't hold that position, and he's already commented on that. Look, Wolf, what...

BLITZER: I'm not so sure about that, Gary.

BAUER: Well, Wolf...

BLITZER: He has a personal stake in this, as you well know, as well. One of his daughters being a lesbian.

BAUER: Sure, he does. But look, four years ago, Vice President Cheney could not guess in his wildest imagination that a handful of judges would attempt to force on the American people same-sex marriage.

It would be wonderful if every state could make their own decision, but as everybody knows, once one state endorses same-sex marriage under the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution, every other state will be forced to recognize those marriages. The positions taken by Senator Edwards and by Senator Kerry would be disarming the American people in the face of a handful of judges in Massachusetts.

If you believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, you have to either support the Defense of Marriage Act or this constitutional amendment. It has nothing to do with bigotry. Is it not being a bigot to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and that children need mothers and fathers.

BLITZER: And in fairness on this position, David, President Clinton, when he was in office, did sign the Defense of Marriage Act into law. He supported it, as did most Democrats.

AXELROD: Yes. But what's happening here is quite different. We're talking about a constitutional amendment.

By the way, I guess Gary's speaking for the vice president on this one more promise, one more commitment that the administration has walked away from, including being compassionate conservatives who would bring the country together -- but if we want to do something about helping marriage as an institution, why don't we help struggling families in this country send their kids to college and pay their bills and keep their jobs that the administration thinks should be outsourced to other countries? To me, that would be a greater contribution to the stability of the institution of marriage in this country than this wholly political device.

BLITZER: Mike, why did Senator Kerry vote against the Defense of Marriage Act when it was up -- when the Democrats were pushing it together with the Republicans and President Clinton and Vice President Gore at that time clearly supported it?

DONILON: Well, what Senator Kerry has said is very clear, which is that he was concerned at the time that there was gay bashing going on. And he was very concerned about that. And it is one of the things which we need to be careful about through this whole debate, which is that there ought to be tolerance, people's points of view should be heard.

And these kinds of devices, in particular, a constitutional amendment, should not be inserted into the political process really in an effort to divide people. So Senator Kerry was speaking from a perspective that said, we don't want gay bashing. There's no place for that in this country. And today, there's clearly a need to say that we should not be using the United States Constitution for these kinds of purposes.

BLITZER: Here is an e-mail, Gary, for you. Let me get your response from Daniel in New York.

BAUER: Sure.

BLITZER: "The same-sex marriage issue, like slavery, is an issue of civil rights. The constitutional amendment being considered should be guaranteeing same-sex marriage anywhere in America, not banning it."

I guess the question that Daniel and others are asking, why should gay Americans be discriminated against and not be allowed to get married as all other Americans are allowed to do?

BAUER: It is not discrimination. Every culture in the world, every civilization in the world for over 3,000 years, has defined marriage as the union of one man and one woman. The Constitutional amendment merely states that again.

It would not only stop same-sex marriages, it would stop polygamy. It would stop all sorts of things. But it does that by just affirming that marriage is between a man and a woman.

One quick other point, that somehow that Senator Kerry voted against the Defense of Marriage Act because he was concerned about gay bashing? Which of his Senate colleagues was engaged in gay bashing?

The Defense of Marriage Act passed overwhelmingly. The great majority of Democrats voted for it. On this one, Senator Kerry is placing himself way out on the fringe.

BLITZER: All right. Let's let Mike get the last word on that.

Go ahead, Mike.

DONILON: Well, I think Senator Kerry is very much in the mainstream here and very much in the center of the country. And one of the things that clearly is at stake here is we ought to be protecting the United States Constitution. We should not be using it for political purposes, and we certainly should not be using it for political purposes when a president who is in trouble politically is trying to revive his own political prospects.

BLITZER: Mike Donilon, thanks for joining us.

Gary Bauer, as usual, thanks to you as well.

And David Axlerod in Chicago, we'll continue this conversation on another occasion.